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Toll roads coming in Michigan?

Started by Stephane Dumas, December 14, 2015, 10:22:07 AM

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Henry

That would be interesting to see! I assume that they will build HOT lanes on the urban freeways?
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wanderer2575

Quote from: Henry on December 14, 2015, 10:58:06 AM
That would be interesting to see! I assume that they will build HOT lanes on the urban freeways?

Oh, yeah, Henry, they'll get right on that.  Hell, MDOT has been trying for years to find the $1 billion (!) to redesign and rebuild a crumbling and obsolete eight-mile stretch of I-94 through Detroit, and adding a lane on I-75 in Oakland County has been a pipe dream for about as long.  Then there's Canada's offer to advance Michigan's/USA's costs for the new Downriver bridge and connection to I-75 because that's the only way it'll get done.  Tolling is not going to make billions of bucks appear overnight.

I'm not seeing how retrofitting tolling on Michigan's existing urban freeways would work.  It would cost huge amounts to install tolling equipment at every exit/entry, or local roads would be jammed with traffic exiting a freeway and reentering a mile later to avoid open road tolling.  I could see this working only if a LOT of urban exits were eliminated, and that also would jam up local roads.  I'm no expert on this, so please educate me if I'm missing something.

froggie

QuoteIt would cost huge amounts to install tolling equipment at every exit/entry

First off, it wouldn't be necessary at every exit/entry.  It could be done by lane, which is what's generally been happening so far nevermind being what Federal law currently allows on existing Interstates.  Second, it'd cost far less than you'd otherwise expect...probably low 8 digits.  Far less than it'd cost for even one mile of new lane.

Joe The Dragon

Quote from: wanderer2575 on December 14, 2015, 11:25:56 AM
Quote from: Henry on December 14, 2015, 10:58:06 AM
That would be interesting to see! I assume that they will build HOT lanes on the urban freeways?

Oh, yeah, Henry, they'll get right on that.  Hell, MDOT has been trying for years to find the $1 billion (!) to redesign and rebuild a crumbling and obsolete eight-mile stretch of I-94 through Detroit, and adding a lane on I-75 in Oakland County has been a pipe dream for about as long.  Then there's Canada's offer to advance Michigan's/USA's costs for the new Downriver bridge and connection to I-75 because that's the only way it'll get done.  Tolling is not going to make billions of bucks appear overnight.

I'm not seeing how retrofitting tolling on Michigan's existing urban freeways would work.  It would cost huge amounts to install tolling equipment at every exit/entry, or local roads would be jammed with traffic exiting a freeway and reentering a mile later to avoid open road tolling.  I could see this working only if a LOT of urban exits were eliminated, and that also would jam up local roads.  I'm no expert on this, so please educate me if I'm missing something.

They can do a EOE and the the toll points on some ramps and on the main line in between. Cheaper then a 407 ETR

The Ghostbuster

I don't see toll roads coming to Michigan, and I don't see toll lanes anywhere outside of maybe Detroit. Then again, I'm from Wisconsin, so what do I know?

Lyon Wonder

#6
IMO, Michigan already has a lot of limited access interstate and non-interstate US and state route freeways, except for rural upper Michigan.  I think they're taking about putting tolls on rebuilt freeways, especially in or around urban Detroit.  I guess they could also use tolling as a means of getting I-73 built too.

Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Brandon

Quote from: Lyon Wonder on December 14, 2015, 06:24:17 PM
IMO, Michigan already has a lot of limited access interstate and non-interstate US and state route freeways, except for rural upper Michigan.  I think they're taking about putting tolls on rebuilt freeways, especially in or around urban Detroit.  I guess they could also use tolling as a means of getting I-73 built too.

I-73 is effectively mostly built (US-127), but MDOT really doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about it.  Nor does ODOT for that matter.
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aboges26

Quote from: Brandon on December 15, 2015, 11:55:29 AM
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on December 14, 2015, 06:24:17 PM
IMO, Michigan already has a lot of limited access interstate and non-interstate US and state route freeways, except for rural upper Michigan.  I think they're taking about putting tolls on rebuilt freeways, especially in or around urban Detroit.  I guess they could also use tolling as a means of getting I-73 built too.

I-73 is effectively mostly built (US-127), but MDOT really doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about it.  Nor does ODOT for that matter.

Lenawee County and especially the city of Adrian, have no desire to have it built.  Even back in Michigan's freeway building days, they declined the idea.

JREwing78

I could see NEW tollways being built this way in Michigan. Two corridors that this could work for:

- A NE/SW tollway linking Angola, IN and the Indiana Toll Road to Ann Arbor, MI, roughly along the current US-12 corridor. This would be an alternate route for Chicago-to-Detroit traffic, bypassing the heavily congested I-94. It would also pull more traffic onto the Indiana Toll Road.

- A new N/S corridor linking Detroit to Bay City via Vassar, Lapeer, Imlay City, Romeo, and Utica. It would start at the Davison Freeway (M-8) and the Lodge Fwy (M-10), follow Davison through I-75 to Mound, then straight up Mound Rd into Warren, Sterling Heights and Utica. It would jog over to M-53 (Van Dyke Fwy).

From there, it would follow M-53 north to Imlay City, bypassing it to the west, then veer NW to the north side of Lapeer. From there, it would continue NW to Vassar, then roughly paralleling M-15 to Bay City. Alternatively, it could curve west to bypass Saginaw to the south, then follow the M-47 corridor to Midland.

The Ghostbuster

How about using tolls to complete the US 31 freeway to Interstate 94? It's crazy that connection was delayed by a stupid butterfly. It should have been completed long ago.

JREwing78

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 17, 2015, 05:32:11 PM
How about using tolls to complete the US 31 freeway to Interstate 94? It's crazy that connection was delayed by a stupid butterfly. It should have been completed long ago.

Considering the detour is maybe 2 miles, it would be way too easy to shunpike to make profitable. Nobody avoids using US-31 for that mile of Napier Ave it has to traverse, and it's far from being congested. Anyway, MDOT's current planned workaround - tying US-31 into the BL I-94 interchange, and widening I-94 to connect US-31 with I-196, would work just fine. But that couldn't be tolled either.

M-6 would've been an excellent candidate for tolling. But since it's been free for 10 years, there would be considerable bitching from area residents if they retroactively tried to toll it.

vdeane

Quote from: JREwing78 on December 17, 2015, 06:17:18 PM
M-6 would've been an excellent candidate for tolling. But since it's been free for 10 years, there would be considerable bitching from area residents if they retroactively tried to toll it.
Would that matter?  The bill would allow a public commission to enter into agreement with a private operator without any public comment or vote by elected officials (the deals would be as secret as the Trans-Pacific Partnership prior to approval, so the public wouldn't even be legally allowed to know discussions were happening).  The only limit is that the private operator would have to "improve" the road somehow, but a lot of things could be used to constitute "improvement".
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Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

The Ghostbuster

I was refering to using toll money to fund the US 31 connection to Interstate 94. I didn't necessarily mean putting tolls on US 31.

renegade

We need this like a hole in our heads here in Michigan ... which means we will probably get it.
Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.

vdeane

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 18, 2015, 05:14:42 PM
I was refering to using toll money to fund the US 31 connection to Interstate 94. I didn't necessarily mean putting tolls on US 31.
Given that this bill is about public-private partnerships on specific corridors, I'm not sure how that would be done.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

The Ghostbuster




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