Elephant in the Room - Tolls in Wisconsin?

[merrycilantro]

Okay so I apologize if this topic has already been started/discussed on the forum but I've been looking at articles about the possibility of Toll Roads coming to Wisconsin. I've been giving it some serious thought, and am currently on the fence about it. It makes sense to me to pay for something I use via a toll, however would it truly decrease tourism up north as the naysayers claim?

So I guess the question is, do you think tolls will come to Wisconsin, and the follow up is, are you for or against it? Also, sub-follow-up, what roads do you think/know would be tolled?

[Joe The Dragon]

Well under the laws today they can't toll the interstates. That law can change but maybe for some alt history?

I-94 / Toll US 41 IL state line to Milwaukee / bypass area?

milwaukee bypass?

I-94 Madison to milwaukee bypass?

US 41 milwaukee bypass to green bay?

I-94 / I-90 Madison to MN?

I-90 Madison to IL or TOLL US 12 to IL.


As for today maybe TOLL US 12 or I-XX / I-XXX Madison to IL with some kind of TOLL IL-47 or TOLL US 12 + TOLL IL 120 + TOLL IL-53 / I-XX / I-XXX.

[merrycilantro]

I know I'd read that they were looking to allow the states to toll the interstates, and a feasibility study is in place for 2015-2017 to at least look at being able to toll. Something about $30,000 required to study it, or maybe that's the Racine Metra connection possibility and I'm getting things mixed up but I know they're looking into it.

I would almost want to say, since there are a lot of projects that have been shelved and there are a lot of badly needed projects (I'll save that for the fictional forum LOL), that we'd almost have to toll all interstates and current freeways/divided highways (expressways). I know the original framers of the Eisenhower System wanted a toll road *I believe* from Eau Claire to Green Bay to loop back to I-94, so basically current Wis 29.

The notion on one side is that Illinois people are already used to paying tolls so we'd get their money for using our roads, and then on the other side of the fence, they're saying that people from Illinois and even Wisconsinites, would say think twice about making that trip up north because of the tolls, or that the secondary highways would get more wear and tear and congestion by toll-avoiders. In which case, then maybe not tolling the current expressways and sticking mainly to the interstates that people most use, say I94/41 from WI/IL to Milwaukee, then Milwaukee to Madison (and perhaps to MN state line), and I90 from Beloit to La Crosse.

I don't know at this point, I am currently neither for nor against but my mind can be molded. I can see the good and bad arguments on both sides of the fence, and neither one at present seems to be greener.

To the admins, I'm definitely not intending this to go into the fictional realm, just trying to open dialogue about the possibility of tolling in WI and would it be good or bad for us. Apologies in advance.

[froggie]

Well under the laws today they can't toll the interstates.

Federal law does not expressly prohibit this...but there are restrictions and requirements related to what WisDOT would do to both the roadway and the toll revenue.

Were you referring to a Wisconsin state law?

[SEWIGuy]

Unless the federal and state gas taxes are raised, which is unlikely given the current environment, tolling might be the best option if you consider the alternatives of either underfunding roadways and putting them on long-term schedules. 

It's too bad that WIDOT really wasted a bunch of money on bad projects versus saving it for when the roads that really needed expansion were ready.  But politics, etc. prevented that from happening. 

[merrycilantro]

Another bit I've been thinking about...maybe in addition to tolling in Wisconsin, they potentially sell naming rights to the freeways? I could see I-94 from at least the Zoo to the Marquette, being christened as, for example, the Herb Kohl Expressway? Why not, what with the big new shiny Bucks Arena and what not coming to Milwaukee...

As far as tourism suffering...I don't really think that it would, at least not as much as the Nay's would like to think. I'll still make my trip up north every year, just get ready to pay an additional $10 round trip say. You're already preparing to spend multiple hundreds of dollars up there...I for one wouldn't let a toll ruin my favorite Wisconsin destination...and in addition, it'll even benefit even in another way: So you don't want to pay the tolls, and you take the back roads. Well now you're going to go through places that have been bypassed over the years just to build the fancy 4-6 lane freeways and have been forgotten about...you're gonna have to stop for gas, and you're gonna have to stop to eat. Therefore you're helping the economy and tourism even by avoiding the tolls. Now you're stopping for lunch in Waupaca (for example) where you would have just bypassed it (okay that's a really bad example let me try again) You're going to actually drive through Wausau on what is now Business 51 instead of bypassing it with 39/51, where all the retail/fast food is, and you come across some Wausau Family Restaurant that'd been forgotten about. That's a little bit better, and I think you all get the point.

Regardless of what the money raised from potential tolls can or can't be used for, it'd be used for something, thus freeing up more dollars for say that one state highway that needs resurfacing but oh man we're spending millions redoing I-94 from Kenosha to Milwaukee. Not anymore with the toll I-94 is paying for itself, and now we can redirect that money elsewhere.

Obviously I'm a greenhorn and I know nothing about the way government and its money works so if I sound cocky it's definitely not intended, and bear in mind this is just some commoner's musings.

[jeffandnicole]

...It makes sense to me to pay for something I use via a toll, however would it truly decrease tourism up north as the naysayers claim?

No one ever visits New York City because of all the tolls. 

And there's never a traffic jam on the Garden State Parkway from no one going to the Jersey Shore because of the tolls. 

As you can see, my 's indicate that some of the largest tourist destinations in the country have tolls...large tolls...and remain some of the largest tourist destinations in the country.

Those against tolls are trying to find something that they think would sway public opinion.  The reality is the tolls have little if no impact on tourism.  If someone wants to visit a destination and are against tolls, they'll figure out the free roads around it.

[merrycilantro]

Very True, I agree. Like I said I'm still going up north even if I have to pay a $10 toll. If I didn't want to pay it, I'd just go the 6 hour way we all used to go before the fancy freeways were built that cut travel time to 4 hours. But I'm glad you posted that because I didn't think of it that way

[US 41]

Yeah and every freeway in Orlando has tolls (except I-4).

I know plenty of people that have no problem with paying $20 in tolls on the Tri-State Tollway on their way to Milwaukee from Indiana. I on the other hand always take I-94 right through downtown Chicago and then take US 41 to the IL/WI border and pay $0 in tolls, but I am cheap.

By the way, which interstates in Wisconsin would become toll roads or does anyone know for sure?

[merrycilantro]

I haven't been able to find anything on what roads they would want to toll unfortunately.

Also...the tolls don't exactly stop us from venturing to Chicago. Granted for me, I'd rather take the Metra or the CTA because then I don't have to worry about parking or congestion, but yeah I wouldn't think tourism would be affected that badly.

Side note: if anybody is privy to the information about whether or not tolling is gaining traction and/or what roads would be tolled, please share.

[jeffandnicole]

I haven't been able to find anything on what roads they would want to toll unfortunately.

Also...the tolls don't exactly stop us from venturing to Chicago. Granted for me, I'd rather take the Metra or the CTA because then I don't have to worry about parking or congestion, but yeah I wouldn't think tourism would be affected that badly.

Side note: if anybody is privy to the information about whether or not tolling is gaining traction and/or what roads would be tolled, please share.

My apologies...I thought you meant country-wide.  If you go back to the main page showing all the forum groups and do a search there, you'll see how tolling has been gaining traction throughout the country...for the most part.  All toll roads aren't successful though, with some operators going bankrupt and some toll roads getting cancelled prior to even getting built. 

[merrycilantro]

Did a quick search only to find a blurb or two about the possibility of tolling that was raised some years back, but the thread ended in 2012. Nothing stating as to which roads in WI would be tolled.

Also checked the DOT website, did not find much there either.

[SEWIGuy]

The two sections of interstate that I thought would be best to toll are...

1. I-90 at the IL line to I-94 at the MN line.  This would be a "thruway" type of toll with a real lack of viable alternatives.

2. I-94 from the IL line to the Milwaukee County line.  Basically an extension of the Tri-State Tollway.  Massive traffic with drivers who are used to paying tolls. 

[merrycilantro]

Agreed. That'd at least be a good starting point/testing field to see if it would work and if so, how well.

Although to take it one half step further, they could Toll I-94 (/I-41) from IL State line all the way to the MN Line as the "Badger Turnpike", and then I-90 from IL to Madison as the "Madison Turnpike"...unless as aforementioned they sold the naming rights and some rich guy named it after himself.

[invincor]

I'm completely and utterly against tolls in Wisconsin on any widespread basis.  For an HOV lane here or there in the metro areas like in the Twin Cities?  Yeah, OK.  Never ever for the entire road. 

[jeffandnicole]

I'm completely and utterly against tolls in Wisconsin on any widespread basis.  For an HOV lane here or there in the metro areas like in the Twin Cities?  Yeah, OK.  Never ever for the entire road. 

Why?

[johndoe780]

Well under the laws today they can't toll the interstates.

Federal law does not expressly prohibit this...but there are restrictions and requirements related to what WisDOT would do to both the roadway and the toll revenue.

Were you referring to a Wisconsin state law?

To give an example, Federal law allows you to add a lane to an interstate and have that "Lexus lane" be a toll road.

[US 41]

In my opinion the tolling of interstates should be left up to the states. I don't care if Wisconsin wants all of their interstates to be tolled, just I-94 to be tolled between Madison and Milwaukee, or all of their interstates to remain free. I think it should be their decision, not the federal government's.

[merrycilantro]

I agree, it should be left up to the states. In Wisconsin's case, it appears as though the notion of tolling has bipartisan support (at least for the time being), while it's about a 60/40 split in willingness to accept tolling, with 60 in favor. At least that's what I read, though I do not have the source.

As previously stated I'm not necessarily against tolling, especially if Wisconsin can get out of remedial transportation school and get on board (pun intended) with High Speed Rail. If enough people would ride the rails, maybe the need for additional lanes of highway/freeway or expensive reconstruction, would be decreased. Obviously this is from my naïve point of view, and I do realize there are expenses to that too. But we should *at the very least* revisit the high speed connection to Chicago. Madison, Milwaukee, Racine and Kenosha.

[The Ghostbuster]

I wouldn't necessarily toll the highways per se. I would implement tolling via Express Lanes and HOT Lanes.

[peterj920]

Tollways aren't going to be built in Wisconsin because it would be political suicide.  States like Texas and Illinois have state legislatures that are solidly one party so they can toll without consequence.  Wisconsin is a swing state and the state legislature can switch majority from one party to another within 2 years.  The party in charge (Republicans currently) will not risk losing control with a toll road proposal.  If Democrats regain control, I highly doubt they will make that risk either. 

Just to show how powerful tolls can shift public opinion in politics, Larry Hogan is a Republican governor in Maryland, which is a Democratic state.  He reduced tolls in Maryland and he is seeing high approval ratings despite being a Republican.  Motorists see a cost savings when driving and most are thankful for the toll decrease.  I doubt that his approval rating would be where it is if he wouldn't have reduced the toll fares across the state.  That should actually be a moral for anyone running for office in state that tolls their roads.  Pledge to reduce or eliminate tolls, you will be elected regardless of party affiliation.

I am against tolls and I am glad that I can get in my car and drive anywhere as long as I have gas in my car.  This state is politically divided but the one issue that unites people on both sides of the political spectrum in Wisconsin.  Citizens on both sides of the political spectrum don't want toll roads. 

[merrycilantro]

That makes sense to me, does it matter though if this time around the calls for tolling are getting bipartisan support? I suppose though either party could use the tolling as a case against the other party.

[froggie]

I doubt that his approval rating would be where it is if he wouldn't have reduced the toll fares across the state.

Hogan's approval rating goes far deeper than that...it has just as much (if not more) to do with the "lack of scandal" as it does cutting tolls.  He has also alienated a lot of urban/suburban voters with some of his transportation choices.

And something else which most drivers don't bother to consider:  the state wants to replace the US 301 Nice Bridge (over the Potomac) and is considering a 3rd span at the Bay Bridge (US 50/301 over Chesapeake Bay).  Drivers support both projects, yet by cutting tolls, Hogan has cut the primary funding mechanism for those projects.


If you're against tolls, yet you're also against the higher gas taxes needed to build those projects that would otherwise be toll financed, you probably shouldn't be driving.

[merrycilantro]

I like that thinking. Now, the information I do not know, is what will generate more revenue, a 1 cent increase of the gas tax or tolling the interstates? And why is Walker so against raising the gas tax? I'm just seeing projects shelved, delayed etc., due to the lack of funding. Example, Wis 23 from Fond du Lac to Plymouth...now granted that is probably just as much NIMBYs as it is funding, but it's just been "Salt-n-Pepa'd", and relegated to the "never gonna get it, never gonna get it....23, no you're never gonna get it." ...OK coffee is kicking in. Sorry for that.

The bigger picture might be instead of strictly roads that it's maybe time to revisit rails...I've got a fictional thread going about the KRM but seriously we should look at all the options, and not just ones that involve concrete beds that stretch for miles.

[invincor]

I'm completely and utterly against tolls in Wisconsin on any widespread basis.  For an HOV lane here or there in the metro areas like in the Twin Cities?  Yeah, OK.  Never ever for the entire road. 

Why?

PeterJ920's reasons are much the same as mine.  To that, I would add that I've always hated the idea of having to slow down for a toll booth, fiddle for the right change, to have to remember to bring said change before I hit the road in the first place, etc.  Nowadays with I-PASS and so on, that's just transferred over to yet another monthly bill to have to contend with. 

Also, subjectively, it seems to me that every state I've been to that has toll roads also has roads that are in worse physical shape than Wisconsin's.  It makes me think there's a disconnect in the maintenance process that tolling contributes to.  Exactly where the failure is in that chain, I can't say for certain, but I subjectively see it.