Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[MikieTimT]

The September meeting will also put to rest the idea that anything to do with bypassing Siloam Springs belongs in "Fictional" as we'll have alternatives for our viewing pleasure.

[The Ghostbuster]

I don't suppose the future Siloam Springs Bypass will be a toll road, or become an eastern extension of the Cherokee Turnpike?

[MikieTimT]

I don't suppose the future Siloam Springs Bypass will be a toll road, or become an eastern extension of the Cherokee Turnpike?

Not likely on the Arkansas side, but no telling with Oklahoma.

[rte66man]

I don't suppose the future Siloam Springs Bypass will be a toll road, or become an eastern extension of the Cherokee Turnpike?

Not likely on the Arkansas side, but no telling with Oklahoma.

Can't see it happening. The turnpike ends about 15 miles west of Siloam Springs. The 4 lane road there could easily be upgraded without having to build on a new alignment.

[Bobby5280]

I would not call that last 7 miles of US-412 between the end of the turnpike and Arkansas border "easily upgradeable." The ROW width varies from around 290' to around 260' in some spots, which could make a normal freeway design with frontage roads a tight squeeze. The development in Siloam Springs on the AR side of the border will do more to dictate the freeway/toll road connection path to the Cherokee Turnpike than anything. There is no way US-412 is getting upgraded into a freeway directly thru Siloam Springs. A bypass North of the town is the most likely outcome. A Southern bypass is possible, but would go through rougher, more hilly (more expensive to grade) terrain.

[rte66man]

I would not call that last 7 miles of US-412 between the end of the turnpike and Arkansas border "easily upgradeable." The ROW width varies from around 290' to around 260' in some spots, which could make a normal freeway design with frontage roads a tight squeeze. The development in Siloam Springs on the AR side of the border will do more to dictate the freeway/toll road connection path to the Cherokee Turnpike than anything. There is no way US-412 is getting upgraded into a freeway directly thru Siloam Springs. A bypass North of the town is the most likely outcome. A Southern bypass is possible, but would go through rougher, more hilly (more expensive to grade) terrain.

You don't need a south frontage road as the old highway can serve for that.

[Road Hog]

I would not call that last 7 miles of US-412 between the end of the turnpike and Arkansas border "easily upgradeable." The ROW width varies from around 290' to around 260' in some spots, which could make a normal freeway design with frontage roads a tight squeeze. The development in Siloam Springs on the AR side of the border will do more to dictate the freeway/toll road connection path to the Cherokee Turnpike than anything. There is no way US-412 is getting upgraded into a freeway directly thru Siloam Springs. A bypass North of the town is the most likely outcome. A Southern bypass is possible, but would go through rougher, more hilly (more expensive to grade) terrain.

The willingness of each local state DOT to pay fair market for eminent domain will determine the ROW width up and down the line. Cost and benefit analyses are being done right now, trust me.

[Bobby5280]

I just don't expect much of that existing 7 mile stretch of four lane highway to be upgraded due to the fact the Interstate highway on the Arkansas side of the border will have to go around Siloam Springs. The new highway will be located at least a few miles North or South of the existing US-412 road. On the Oklahoma side the new highway can't just hang a hard right or hard left turn at the border to meet up with that bypass. The bypass around Siloam Springs will have to angle back down to meet up with existing US-412 and the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike. Given the expense of adding new frontage roads and new main lanes along that existing segment of US-412, it wouldn't surprise me if ODOT (or OTA) skipped that section completely. They might just build a new terrain 4-lane highway diagonally to the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike.

[MikieTimT]

I just don't expect much of that existing 7 mile stretch of four lane highway to be upgraded due to the fact the Interstate highway on the Arkansas side of the border will have to go around Siloam Springs. The new highway will be located at least a few miles North or South of the existing US-412 road. On the Oklahoma side the new highway can't just hang a hard right or hard left turn at the border to meet up with that bypass. The bypass around Siloam Springs will have to angle back down to meet up with existing US-412 and the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike. Given the expense of adding new frontage roads and new main lanes along that existing segment of US-412, it wouldn't surprise me of ODOT (or OTA) skipped that section completely. They might just build a new terrain 4-lane highway diagonally to the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike.

Good thing Oklahoma wouldn't do what Arkansas has done with bypasses, including the currently in-progress US-412 bypass of Springdale.  Nothing preventing Arkansas from hanging hard rights to reduce new terrain building, so it's good that Oklahoma has more road funds than Arkansas does for this kind of project.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yet Arkansas can build a proper stack interchange and Oklahoma can't lol

[Bobby5280]

Good thing Oklahoma wouldn't do what Arkansas has done with bypasses, including the currently in-progress US-412 bypass of Springdale.  Nothing preventing Arkansas from hanging hard rights to reduce new terrain building, so it's good that Oklahoma has more road funds than Arkansas does for this kind of project.

Unlike the Springdale Bypass, AR DOT cannot hard-bend a Siloam Springs bypass back into US-412 at the OK/AR border. There is far too much existing development right on the border. There is both heavy residential and business development on the Arkansas side all the way to the border's edge. Any new bypass will have to curve around all of that, and likely do so from miles North or South of the existing US-412 highway.

On the OK side of the border (West Siloam Springs) there is still plenty of existing property to either dodge or buy and clear. It's going to be a little tricky for ODOT or OTA to connect Oklahoma's part of the proposed Interstate to the point where the Siloam Springs bypass hits the border.

[bugo]

I don't suppose the future Siloam Springs Bypass will be a toll road, or become an eastern extension of the Cherokee Turnpike?

I don't think the OTA would be open to building highways in another state.

[bugo]

On the OK side of the border (West Siloam Springs) there is still plenty of existing property to either dodge or buy and clear. It's going to be a little tricky for ODOT or OTA to connect Oklahoma's part of the proposed Interstate to the point where the Siloam Springs bypass hits the border.

Part of the bypass will 100% have to be in Oklahoma. As Bobby said, the bypass can't start at the state line because there is too much development. It will have to begin at least 6 or 7 miles west of the state line, and likely will have to begin at the eastern end of the Cherokee Turnpike. Whether the Oklahoma part of the bypass is tolled or not remains to be seen.

[splashflash]

Ark.DOT or the Highway Commission might study the feasibility of tolls, as they have done in the past.  https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2018/nov/19/state-looks-away-from-tolls-to-pay-for--1/

Quoted from the middle of the article on tolling for I-49:

Still, it is but the latest project in Arkansas to fall short as a toll facility.

"We can't seem to get tolls to work," Tom Scheuck, a member of the Arkansas Highway Commission, said at a meeting of the commission Wednesday.

It isn't like the department hasn't tried.

"We've been through more than 50 tolling studies in the last 50 years -- 50," Bennett said.

A handful have come close to closing the gap between what toll revenue would raise and what it would cost to build and maintain.

Most notably, the department looked at using tolls to widen Interstate 40 between North Little Rock and West Memphis to six lanes from four."

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Maybe electronic tolling is more cost effective and shared use of OTA facilities would push this one into the black.

[sprjus4]

I would say that if Oklahoma extends the existing Turnpike west to the state line as a toll road, the remainder of the Siloam Springs bypass could conceivably be a toll road. Upgrades to the existing highway east of the town, however, should be toll-free. The toll road should end at the eastern terminus of the bypass.

[MikieTimT]

I would say that if Oklahoma extends the existing Turnpike west to the state line as a toll road, the remainder of the Siloam Springs bypass could conceivably be a toll road. Upgrades to the existing highway east of the town, however, should be toll-free. The toll road should end at the eastern terminus of the bypass.

I don't see the Siloam Springs Bypass in Arkansas as warranting the implementation of tolls, and a study would just be a waste of money to give an answer that we've had dozens of times before.  We're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.  Now, if a new terrain facility parallel to the current 4 lane is built instead of limiting access and building a half dozen overpasses with short sections of access roads on the current facility between there and the west end of Tontitown, then we're talking about 14-15 miles of new build if hung off the west end of the sharp southern bend of the Northern Springdale Bypass, and it's possible the entirety of new build would be reasonably warranted for exploring the possibility of funding via tolls.

[sprjus4]

We're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.

Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.

[The Ghostbuster]

When the Siloam Springs Bypass is ultimately built, where might its eastern terminus be located (especially if it starts as an eastern extension of the Cherokee Turnpike, tolls or no tolls)? And how might it intersect with the proposed western terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass? I wouldn't be surprised if they connect the two bypasses by upgrading the existing US 412 four-lane divided segment.

[bugo]

ArDOT can't just slap a tollbooth up wherever they want to. Stare law would have to change. They tried 5o times and they still don't have tolls, and you would think they would see the writing on the wall and give up on the idea

[swake]

We're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.

Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.

30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.

[intelati49]

We're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.

Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.

30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.

I think he's assuming a north bypass. It's going to have to be a long ways off of a straight line.

[kphoger]

Stare law

Ah, good old Alanland...

[sprjus4]

We're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.

Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.

30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.

The existing 33 miles of the Cherokee Turnpike, 7-8 miles of new location freeway in Oklahoma, and 5-6 miles of new location freeway in Arkansas.

Between 40 and 50 miles total of turnpike + new location roadway, all of which could be tolled.

[bugo]

We're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.

Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.

30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.

The existing 33 miles of the Cherokee Turnpike, 7-8 miles of new location freeway in Oklahoma, and 5-6 miles of new location freeway in Arkansas.

Between 40 and 50 miles total of turnpike + new location roadway, all of which could be tolled.

It isn't going to be a toll road in Arkansas. Get that out of your mind. There won't be a toll road in Arkansas for at least another generation. Arkansas doesn't build toll roads, and a 5 mile bypass isn't going to be any different.

[sprjus4]

We're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.

Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.

30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.

The existing 33 miles of the Cherokee Turnpike, 7-8 miles of new location freeway in Oklahoma, and 5-6 miles of new location freeway in Arkansas.

Between 40 and 50 miles total of turnpike + new location roadway, all of which could be tolled.

It isn't going to be a toll road in Arkansas. Get that out of your mind. There won't be a toll road in Arkansas for at least another generation. Arkansas doesn't build toll roads, and a 5 mile bypass isn't going to be any different.

I'm not suggesting it's going to be built as a toll road, I'm simply saying if Arkansas is going to have any, that is a logical location.

In any case, I expect Oklahoma to simply upgrade the existing US-412 highway east of the Cherokee Turnpike, and for there to be a new location freeway, toll-free, around Siloam Springs. It will likely be cheaper to construct frontage roads, a few overpasses and maybe an interchange or two than to build a full new freeway parallel to the existing divided highway.