Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[MikieTimT]

We're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.

Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.

30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.

The existing 33 miles of the Cherokee Turnpike, 7-8 miles of new location freeway in Oklahoma, and 5-6 miles of new location freeway in Arkansas.

Between 40 and 50 miles total of turnpike + new location roadway, all of which could be tolled.

It isn't going to be a toll road in Arkansas. Get that out of your mind. There won't be a toll road in Arkansas for at least another generation. Arkansas doesn't build toll roads, and a 5 mile bypass isn't going to be any different.

I'm not suggesting it's going to be built as a toll road, I'm simply saying if Arkansas is going to have any, that is a logical location.

In any case, I expect Oklahoma to simply upgrade the existing US-412 highway east of the Cherokee Turnpike, and for there to be a new location freeway, toll-free, around Siloam Springs. It will likely be cheaper to construct frontage roads, a few overpasses and maybe an interchange or two than to build a full new freeway parallel to the existing divided highway.

I expect both states, when considering both of their histories, will do whatever comes cheapest, and that likely means converting 4-lane divided in both states between I-49 and the Cherokee Turnpike with short frontage roads and rather few exit interchanges given the amount of development along both segments.  Greater amounts of federal funding would change the calculus for the project, but unless that happens, I fully expect both states to cheap out.  Given Arkansas' history, we'll live with a Super-2 bypass of Siloam Springs for about 3-5 years before the full facility is built.

[DJStephens]

We're talking about less than 6 miles of bypass in Arkansas if taken from the end of the current 4-lane divided portion east of Siloam Springs.

Yes, however if Oklahoma builds a toll road connection to the Cherokee Turnpike, it would extend as 30-40 more miles of toll outside of Arkansas, making a six mile toll portion in Arkansas a logical extension and easy funding source for Arkansas.

30 or 40 miles? It's 8 miles from the end of the turnpike to the state line.

I think he's assuming a north bypass. It's going to have to be a long ways off of a straight line.

I just don't expect much of that existing 7 mile stretch of four lane highway to be upgraded due to the fact the Interstate highway on the Arkansas side of the border will have to go around Siloam Springs. The new highway will be located at least a few miles North or South of the existing US-412 road. On the Oklahoma side the new highway can't just hang a hard right or hard left turn at the border to meet up with that bypass. The bypass around Siloam Springs will have to angle back down to meet up with existing US-412 and the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike. Given the expense of adding new frontage roads and new main lanes along that existing segment of US-412, it wouldn't surprise me of ODOT (or OTA) skipped that section completely. They might just build a new terrain 4-lane highway diagonally to the East end of the Cherokee Turnpike.

Good thing Oklahoma wouldn't do what Arkansas has done with bypasses, including the currently in-progress US-412 bypass of Springdale.  Nothing preventing Arkansas from hanging hard rights to reduce new terrain building, so it's good that Oklahoma has more road funds than Arkansas does for this kind of project.

While personally have no familiarity with Springdale, a route going around the south would appear shorter, and possibly more direct.   Believe previous posters have stated that there are Terrain issues to the south?   A "New Jersey" type of facility could not be placed atop the existing corridor straight through either, with some sort of "fixing" of the jog in middle of town?   Meaning "Bella Vista" ish, a narrow footprint, narrow L shoulder, 2 x 2, full R shoulder, and slip ramps.  This whole scenario sounds a bit like the Muskogee situation also, with the issue there of US - 69 truck corridor going straight through, while there is bickering back and forth about a future high quality I-45  bypass to it's west.   

[Bobby5280]

I think the way to deal with the Muskogee situation is by building a new US-69 ("future I-45") freeway farther West of Muskogee. Such a thing is very do-able without shifting traffic too far out of the way.

If people in Siloam Springs want to block freeway bypass efforts there the state DOTs could simply let the two border towns pay for their main street upkeep out of their own local tax base and shift highway money elsewhere. If the locals want to prop up a "Breezewood" for Interstate traffic then let the locals pay the cost of it.

[DJStephens]

    The difference, though, appears to be that there are now? possibly concrete plans to go around Siloam Springs,  whereas in Muskogee the can has been kicked down the road in terms of a routing for future I-45.   

[Bobby5280]

ODOT and town fathers in Muskogee can kick the can down the road for now since not much of the corridor has been upgraded to Interstate standards. Over time ODOT could increase the pressure for completing a possible I-45 extension by building segments of it elsewhere.

It's pretty obvious US-69/75 will get upgraded to Interstate standards from the Red River to US-70 in Durant. The next step would be improving outdated bridges and ramps in Durant itself. It would be easy to upgrade US-69/75 to Interstate standards up to Tushka. McAlester and the Army Ammunition Depot is another area of focus where an Interstate quality segment can grow outward. Another thing ODOT can do is start building a new "I-45" segment from I-44 and Big Cabin and start working downward toward Muskogee.

Basically ODOT could accomplish upgrading a lot of US-69 from the Red River to Big Cabin regardless of what anyone in Atoka, Stringtown or Muskogee could say. If Texas was to sign US-75 as I-45 up to the Red River ODOT could follow suit and have the designation get up to Durant. They could sign a new segment from Big Cabin going Southward the same way. That would put a lot of visible pressure on those towns trying to block highway progress. And ODOT could leave it up to Muskogee, Atoka, Stringtown, etc to fix the pavement damage to their streets from all the truck traffic pounding them. Just give the excuse, "we have so many other projects elsewhere in the state; you guys don't want an Interstate here anyway, so pay for those damned trucks driving on your local streets." Again, in the case of Muskogee a new bypass West of the city limits is pretty do-able.

[bugo]

I don't have a clear understanding what drives US-412 traffic today between Tulsa and NWA. Commerce? Tribal Casinos?

The University of Arkansas generates traffic between the Tulsa area and Fayetteville. Lots of Tulsa natives attend the UofA (Fayetteville is closer to Tulsa than Norman is) and a lot of Razorback fans live in Tulsa, so they travel to Fayetteville to watch football, basketball and baseball games.

[Road Hog]

I don't have a clear understanding what drives US-412 traffic today between Tulsa and NWA. Commerce? Tribal Casinos?

The University of Arkansas generates traffic between the Tulsa area and Fayetteville. Lots of Tulsa natives attend the UofA (Fayetteville is closer to Tulsa than Norman is) and a lot of Razorback fans live in Tulsa, so they travel to Fayetteville to watch football, basketball and baseball games.

It's 63 miles from Tulsa to Stillwater and 113 miles from Tulsa to Fayettevile. No doubt Tulsa has a few Hog fans but Okie Lite is an easier drive.

[bugo]

There's an OSU campus and hospital in Tulsa, as well as an OU medical hospital, so a lot of Tulsa residents attend those programs.

[MikieTimT]

I don't have a clear understanding what drives US-412 traffic today between Tulsa and NWA. Commerce? Tribal Casinos?

The University of Arkansas generates traffic between the Tulsa area and Fayetteville. Lots of Tulsa natives attend the UofA (Fayetteville is closer to Tulsa than Norman is) and a lot of Razorback fans live in Tulsa, so they travel to Fayetteville to watch football, basketball and baseball games.

It's 63 miles from Tulsa to Stillwater and 113 miles from Tulsa to Fayettevile. No doubt Tulsa has a few Hog fans but Okie Lite is an easier drive.

I've got a cousin that just graduated from OSU after playing safety this past year finally, which he picked over the U of A because of the coaching drama prior to Pittman, so it goes the other way sometimes too.  There's a lot of similarities between the 2 states, and lots of us have ties that go both ways as I've had family and friends move to the Tulsa area after graduation.  I'd say that the traffic is driven not really by casinos, as you don't have to go further than a mile in to Oklahoma either from Siloam Springs or Ft. Smith to get that fix from the Cherokees or Choctaws.  It's commerce as there's a number of things in either state with ties to the other, and Canoo is really just the trendy thing at the moment drawing attention to those ties.  We also enjoy each other's lakes on weekends as Oklahoma has Grand Lake for a wide open lake experience, and Arkansas has a number of lakes surrounded by mountains and forests for a more natural outing, so tourism works both ways as well.  There are folks that come from all of the surrounding states to drive their sports cars or motorcycles on the twisty mountain roads in the Ozarks, and Tulsa is where lots of folks around here go to buy automobiles as they tend to be cheaper than the local dealers.  So, it's not really just one thing driving the traffic, but the 2 metros really are interdependent in a great many ways, so it only makes sense to strengthen the road that ties them together.  It'll only get more the case with the continued growth of both, which will continue as they are both still somewhat cheap than most other Top 100 metros.

[bugo]

There are tons of Razorback fans in Tulsa. I see Hog license plates and stickers on cars all the time. A lot of UA graduates take jobs in Tulsa after graduating, because it's the closest metro of its size from Fayetteville.

[swake]

There are tons of Razorback fans in Tulsa. I see Hog license plates and stickers on cars all the time. A lot of UA graduates take jobs in Tulsa after graduating, because it's the closest metro of its size from Fayetteville.

Tulsa to Fayetteville is just 113 miles as compared to 190 miles to Little Rock. And Tulsa is quite a bit larger than Little Rock. NW Arkansas and Tulsa have lots of ties.

[MikieTimT]

There are tons of Razorback fans in Tulsa. I see Hog license plates and stickers on cars all the time. A lot of UA graduates take jobs in Tulsa after graduating, because it's the closest metro of its size from Fayetteville.

Tulsa to Fayetteville is just 113 miles as compared to 190 miles to Little Rock. And Tulsa is quite a bit larger than Little Rock. NW Arkansas and Tulsa have lots of ties.

And Tulsa is a more appealing city in several ways that would make me choose it over LR, geographic convenience aside.  My brother lived in Ft. Smith, LR, and Tulsa before moving to Seattle 16 years ago, so I've gotten to know each pretty well.  Little Rock has more in common with Arkansas in general, but NWA has a lot more in common with Tulsa or KC than it does with LR.  NWA still draws from the entire state of Arkansas for the U of A, and a significant portion stick around afterwards, like I did, although I'm from the county just west of Ft. Smith rather than LR.  NWA also gets a ton of Texans too as they get in-state tuition rates and UT Austin only accepts so many each year, so a lot of overflow comes up this way, especially those that like the outdoors along with their college experience.  I'm sure there's a lot from eastern Oklahoma with the same goal for their college life that OU and OSU don't facilitate if the education or family legacy is only part of the consideration.  U of A used to be considered more of a party school, but has upped their game on the academics significantly over the last 25 years.

[bugo]

And Tulsa is a more appealing city in several ways that would make me choose it over LR, geographic convenience aside.

Agreed. I've lived in Conway and Cabot, and I briefly worked at the Little Rock airport, so I know all about central Arkansas, and Little Rock isn't nearly as nice as Tulsa. Most of the bad parts of Tulsa are concentrated in certain areas, while the bad parts of Little Rock are scattered among the nicer parts. Cabot and Conway were nice enough (this was 25-30 years ago), but LR/NLR is pretty dumpy in places.

My brother lived in Ft. Smith, LR, and Tulsa before moving to Seattle 16 years ago, so I've gotten to know each pretty well.  Little Rock has more in common with Arkansas in general, but NWA has a lot more in common with Tulsa or KC than it does with LR.

I laugh when Tulsa natives say that Tulsa is part of the South. It has far more in common with Kansas City than Memphis or Savannah or Baton Rouge or Little Rock. You could argue that Le Flore and McCurtain Counties have a southern feel, but Tulsa is a midwestern city.

I'm from the county just west of Ft. Smith rather than LR.

Le Flore or Sequoyah? I grew up just across the state line from Le Flore County, and I'm very familiar with that part of the state.

NWA also gets a ton of Texans too as they get in-state tuition rates and UT Austin only accepts so many each year, so a lot of overflow comes up this way, especially those that like the outdoors along with their college experience.  I'm sure there's a lot from eastern Oklahoma with the same goal for their college life that OU and OSU don't facilitate if the education or family legacy is only part of the consideration.  U of A used to be considered more of a party school, but has upped their game on the academics significantly over the last 25 years.

A ton of Razorback players, past and present, are from Texas. Arkansas actively recruits Texas because it's a fertile ground for high school football. They've been recruiting Oklahoma pretty heavily in the last 20 years, and there have been some great Razorbacks who are from the Tulsa area, most notably Felix Jones.

[MikieTimT]

And Tulsa is a more appealing city in several ways that would make me choose it over LR, geographic convenience aside.

Agreed. I've lived in Conway and Cabot, and I briefly worked at the Little Rock airport, so I know all about central Arkansas, and Little Rock isn't nearly as nice as Tulsa. Most of the bad parts of Tulsa are concentrated in certain areas, while the bad parts of Little Rock are scattered among the nicer parts. Cabot and Conway were nice enough (this was 25-30 years ago), but LR/NLR is pretty dumpy in places.

My brother lived in Ft. Smith, LR, and Tulsa before moving to Seattle 16 years ago, so I've gotten to know each pretty well.  Little Rock has more in common with Arkansas in general, but NWA has a lot more in common with Tulsa or KC than it does with LR.

I laugh when Tulsa natives say that Tulsa is part of the South. It has far more in common with Kansas City than Memphis or Savannah or Baton Rouge or Little Rock. You could argue that Le Flore and McCurtain Counties have a southern feel, but Tulsa is a midwestern city.

I'm from the county just west of Ft. Smith rather than LR.

Le Flore or Sequoyah? I grew up just across the state line from Le Flore County, and I'm very familiar with that part of the state.

NWA also gets a ton of Texans too as they get in-state tuition rates and UT Austin only accepts so many each year, so a lot of overflow comes up this way, especially those that like the outdoors along with their college experience.  I'm sure there's a lot from eastern Oklahoma with the same goal for their college life that OU and OSU don't facilitate if the education or family legacy is only part of the consideration.  U of A used to be considered more of a party school, but has upped their game on the academics significantly over the last 25 years.

A ton of Razorback players, past and present, are from Texas. Arkansas actively recruits Texas because it's a fertile ground for high school football. They've been recruiting Oklahoma pretty heavily in the last 20 years, and there have been some great Razorbacks who are from the Tulsa area, most notably Felix Jones.

Actually, I mistyped.  Brain fart.  Ft. Smith was just to the west of us growing up, making us about 20 miles to the east.  Born in Booneville, and raised in Charleston.  Western AR for all my raising and NWA since I was 20 and out on my own after a couple of years staying at home and commuting daily to Westark Community College (now UAFS) for a useless associates degree before getting my bachelors in Computer Systems Engineering at the U of A.

[Road Hog]

Tulsa vs. Little Rock depends on what you're measuring. Tulsa is the bigger metropolitan statistical area, but in terms of TV media market Little Rock is No. 60 and Tulsa is No. 62. When you rank the radio markets, Tulsa is 66 and Little Rock is 94, which is a little surprising because a lot of the Little Rock stations reach way out into the state. Little Rock has the advantage of being a capital city and the center of media in the state. So I agree, in sum Tulsa has an overall edge, but I still consider them peers for the most part.

[Road Hog]

This is just my opinion, but Conway planned better for suburban growth than Cabot did. Conway's streets are better and their zoning ordinances seem better.

A big part of Cabot proper seems a step removed from a ginormous trailer park. The standards there about 15 years ago seemed so slap-dash. It's much better in the planned developments on Cabot's outskirts that came in.

[intelati49]

Sorry. With the notifications for the LR vs Tulsa got me thinking about the project again.

Decided to look at the definition on the High priority corridor.

"...Route that generally follows US 412..."

deaddove.gif

The line got me thinking "I wish there was a git blame for legislation"

[MikieTimT]

This explains a little of the interconnection current and future between the metros this upgrade is intended to foster.

[edwaleni]

This explains a little of the interconnection current and future between the metros this upgrade is intended to foster.

I get the concept, but if I were Wagoner and Mayes Counties in OK, I would want it for a different reason, updating US-69 for the Texas-KCMO traffic.

[The Ghostbuster]

When the proposed Interstate designation is finally signed in the distant future, I think the designation should end at the eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass instead of at Interstate 49.

[swake]

When the proposed Interstate designation is finally signed in the distant future, I think the designation should end at the eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass instead of at Interstate 49.

The large part of the highway is already interstate quality and Oklahoma is applying for interstate designation this fall. Not so distant.

[Scott5114]

When the proposed Interstate designation is finally signed in the distant future, I think the designation should end at the eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass instead of at Interstate 49.

The large part of the highway is already interstate quality and Oklahoma is applying for interstate designation this fall. Not so distant.

Where did you hear that it was happening this fall?

[bugo]

When the proposed Interstate designation is finally signed in the distant future, I think the designation should end at the eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass instead of at Interstate 49.

That's not a good idea. An Interstate should end at another Interstate, not cross an Interstate and peter out 10 miles past the Interstate. (I-26, I'm looking at you, buddy.) It would confuse motorists into thinking "I-50 East" is a through Interstate, and not a dead end. And since ArrrghDOT refuses to sign US highways along Interstates, US 412 would likely not be signed on this stretch of highway, making things even more confusing. I-50 or whatever should end at I-49 until US 412 is a freeway at least as far as I-55.

[The Ghostbuster]

US 412 a freeway all the way to Interstate 55? A Fictional Highways proposal if I ever heard one. Outside of maybe a few more bypasses around towns, I doubt any more of US 412 in Arkansas will be upgraded to freeway standards.

[swake]

When the proposed Interstate designation is finally signed in the distant future, I think the designation should end at the eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass instead of at Interstate 49.

The large part of the highway is already interstate quality and Oklahoma is applying for interstate designation this fall. Not so distant.

Where did you hear that it was happening this fall?

In the deck from the open house meetings last month:
https://meetings.vpioutreach.com/?peGuid=71fefbf3-9327-4b27-b13c-7a31107ee074&stakeGuid=e26ac6a5-72e7-44e8-82f7-89e833b99a10