I-73 updates?

[SkyPesos]

Maybe four lane State/US routes that are divided should have a colored shield.

Or be FrizOwl and turn them all into interstates, which comes with a colored shield in the package 

One more comment for today. Former Franklin County engineer John Circle proposed an outer outerbelt from West Jefferson to Marysville to Delaware to Newark or something like that.

If I-73 ever attracts interest, it would be logical to route that through Newark and connect at US 33 instead of using the current proposed route. I don't think they would want to route it through West Jefferson because of the Big Darby Creek, but that's another possibility.

I doubt that Columbus will get a outer beltway within our lifetimes, considering that there isn't at least an expressway connection that bypass Delaware between I-71 and US 23 yet, let alone a full freeway that serves much more than bypassing Delaware. If somehow an outer beltway is in serious consideration, we'll probably see gradual 4 lane expressway conversion of US 36/OH 37 between Marysville and Granville first before a full freeway loop. There's also that one-off idea of an outer I-875 beltway around Cincinnati with an Ohio River crossing near Marysville, KY; it died pretty quickly after being mentioned once in the 1990s.

[silverback1065]

Maybe four lane State/US routes that are divided should have a colored shield.

Or be FrizOwl and turn them all into interstates, which comes with a colored shield in the package 

One more comment for today. Former Franklin County engineer John Circle proposed an outer outerbelt from West Jefferson to Marysville to Delaware to Newark or something like that.

If I-73 ever attracts interest, it would be logical to route that through Newark and connect at US 33 instead of using the current proposed route. I don't think they would want to route it through West Jefferson because of the Big Darby Creek, but that's another possibility.

I doubt that Columbus will get a outer beltway within our lifetimes, considering that there isn't at least an expressway connection that bypass Delaware between I-71 and US 23 yet, let alone a full freeway that serves much more than bypassing Delaware. If somehow an outer beltway is in serious consideration, we'll probably see gradual 4 lane expressway conversion of US 36/OH 37 between Marysville and Granville first before a full freeway loop. There's also that one-off idea of an outer I-875 beltway around Cincinnati with an Ohio River crossing near Marysville, KY; it died pretty quickly after being mentioned once in the 1990s.

an outer beltway is absurd for both cities.

[TempoNick]

an outer beltway is absurd for both cities.

Development in Delaware, Union, Licking and Fairfield Counties is roughly about one third or one half of the distance between I-270 and where an outer outerbelt would be. Development is going out in each direction and it's better to be proactive like they were with I-270. I-270 didn't really have too much going on traffic and development wise until the 1990's either. It's only a matter of time.

Not that anybody cares, but this would be my I-73 or Ohio 473 or whatever you want to call it. It would probably have to be further out due to development, but it's essentially the same idea.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pfVpak2nJb_u5usxQcWdSJv-YzVefjEz/view?usp=sharing

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

an outer beltway is absurd for both cities.

Development in Delaware, Union, Licking and Fairfield Counties is roughly about one third or one half of the distance between I-270 and where an outer outerbelt would be. Development is going out in each direction and it's better to be proactive like they were with I-270. I-270 didn't really have too much going on traffic and development wise until the 1990's either. It's only a matter of time.

Eh, Blacklick will get incorporated and Reynoldsburg - New Albany Rd will get designated Oh 605 (or 256) before an outer-outerbelt get built for Columbus.

[SkyPesos]

Now that I'm thinking about it, Columbus already have a 4 lane expressway outer beltway. It's US 35/I-75/US 30/I-77/US 50/OH 32.

[dvferyance]

Shouldn't this thread belong in the southeast forum?

[sprjus4]

Shouldn't this thread belong in the southeast forum?

It's about the proposed I-73 in Ohio and Michigan... how is that Southeast?

[dvferyance]

Shouldn't this thread belong in the southeast forum?

It's about the proposed I-73 in Ohio and Michigan... how is that Southeast?

I-73 is in NC which is in the Southeast. I thought the OH and MI portion died a long time ago.

[sprjus4]

Shouldn't this thread belong in the southeast forum?

It's about the proposed I-73 in Ohio and Michigan... how is that Southeast?

I-73 is in NC which is in the Southeast. I thought the OH and MI portion died a long time ago.

While the likelihood of it happening is low, it's still technically a concept and various aspects of it along the existing highways along the corridor are in discussion here.

[Avalanchez71]

Why waste money on this road?  There are so many other routes available already.

[TempoNick]

Why waste money on this road?  There are so many other routes available already.

Columbus is a distribution hub. There are already good roads going northeast, southwest, west and East, but the roads going northwest and southeast should be beefed up a bit. It wouldn't really take that much in the whole scheme of things. Practically everything is in place no matter which route they use.

I personally think there is too much traffic between Findlay and Columbus. It can get hairy with all those at grade intersections, especially if you're tired or if the weather isn't great. You should be able to drive that northern portion between Findlay and Columbus on autopilot instead of having to navigate all those intersections.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

Oh, why not...
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/06/odot-others-launching-study-route-23-improvements-delaware-county/7721840002/
(I don't believe this article is behind the Dispatch's paywall)

[sprjus4]

Oh, why not...
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/06/odot-others-launching-study-route-23-improvements-delaware-county/7721840002/
(I don't believe this article is behind the Dispatch's paywall)

Finally, this project is long overdue. That whole stretch through Delaware needs to be bypassed entirely, most likely through a small cutover between Waldo and I-71 to create at minimum a free-flowing expressway between Columbus and Toledo. Next, will involve converting the limited access portion (with intersections) north of Waldo into a full freeway through gradual interchange and overpass construction.

These projects would be entirely independent of any "I-73" ... but if desired, you could sign I-73 if a full freeway is ultimately converted and is desired for economic growth by communities on the path 

[Bitmapped]

Oh, why not...
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/06/odot-others-launching-study-route-23-improvements-delaware-county/7721840002/
(I don't believe this article is behind the Dispatch's paywall)

Finally, this project is long overdue. That whole stretch through Delaware needs to be bypassed entirely, most likely through a small cutover between Waldo and I-71 to create at minimum a free-flowing expressway between Columbus and Toledo. Next, will involve converting the limited access portion (with intersections) north of Waldo into a full freeway through gradual interchange and overpass construction.

These projects would be entirely independent of any "I-73" ... but if desired, you could sign I-73 if a full freeway is ultimately converted and is desired for economic growth by communities on the path 

Ohio isn't big on signing Interstates for the sake of being Interstates, hence the existing freeway stretches of many US and state routes.

[sparker]

Oh, why not...
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/06/odot-others-launching-study-route-23-improvements-delaware-county/7721840002/
(I don't believe this article is behind the Dispatch's paywall)

Finally, this project is long overdue. That whole stretch through Delaware needs to be bypassed entirely, most likely through a small cutover between Waldo and I-71 to create at minimum a free-flowing expressway between Columbus and Toledo. Next, will involve converting the limited access portion (with intersections) north of Waldo into a full freeway through gradual interchange and overpass construction.

These projects would be entirely independent of any "I-73" ... but if desired, you could sign I-73 if a full freeway is ultimately converted and is desired for economic growth by communities on the path 

Ohio isn't big on signing Interstates for the sake of being Interstates, hence the existing freeway stretches of many US and state routes.

That's pretty much obvious; even without the now-shelved HPC 5/I-73 OH/MI segments, US 35 would have made a reasonable place to put an I-73 (maybe with a Chillicothe-Columbus branch).  But it's functioning well as is; unless a modified multistate regional plan is revisited, there's no need to slap the tri-color shields on existing facilities. 

[westerninterloper]

Ohio isn't big on signing Interstates for the sake of being Interstates, hence the existing freeway stretches of many US and state routes.

Those US routes are expressways (at grade intersections) with freeway (no at-grade) sections. Does Ohio have a non-interstate freeway for more than 100 miles or so, maybe US 35?

[SkyPesos]

Ohio isn't big on signing Interstates for the sake of being Interstates, hence the existing freeway stretches of many US and state routes.

Those US routes are expressways (at grade intersections) with freeway (no at-grade) sections. Does Ohio have a non-interstate freeway for more than 100 miles or so, maybe US 35?

OH 11 is so close, at 99.6 miles long.

[zzcarp]

Ohio isn't big on signing Interstates for the sake of being Interstates, hence the existing freeway stretches of many US and state routes.

Those US routes are expressways (at grade intersections) with freeway (no at-grade) sections. Does Ohio have a non-interstate freeway for more than 100 miles or so, maybe US 35?

OH 11 is so close, at 99.6 miles long.

Taking the 70 mile section of OH 2 freeway from OH 163 in Port Clinton to OH 254 in Rocky River along with the 33-mile freeway segment from W 25th (US 6 -US 20 exit) to its terminus in Painesville, you get 103 miles of freeway.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

So who at ODOT is treating I-73 like Frankenstein?
https://publicinput.com/23connect

[Strider]

So who at ODOT is treating I-73 like Frankenstein?
https://publicinput.com/23connect

I doubt it is related to I-73, but you never know.

[JREwing78]

So who at ODOT is treating I-73 like Frankenstein?
https://publicinput.com/23connect

I doubt it is related to I-73, but you never know.

Yeah, I'm sure we'd hear far more chatter about if if a new Interstate was in the cards. But it's been obvious for decades that this current section of US-23 is overwhelmed with its task of being a suburban commuter corridor and commercial corridor on top of handling regional and inter-state (not Interstate, but state to state) traffic.

TL;DR: The lack of direct freeway connection between Toledo and Columbus is a monumental regional, state, and federal planning f***-up.

US-23 and OH-15 between Findlay and Delaware were built as a higher-speed regional roadway connecting Toledo to Columbus, anticipating that at some point US-23 south of Delaware would be upgraded to freeway. The suburbs came, the commercial retail came, but the upgraded freeway never did. Now they have to figure out how to jam one through suburban sprawl.

It's kind of absurd that two significant metro areas within the state aren't connected by freeway to each other - the Toledo-Findlay-Tiffin CSA is approx. 830,000 residents, the Columbus-Marion-Zanesville CSA is about 2.5 million. The *one* direct road connecting Toledo to Columbus is effectively a surface street for a significant portion of its length, carrying enough traffic for a 6 to 8 lane freeway. 

Just for comparison's sake, in Wisconsin, the Milwaukee-Racine-Waukesha CSA has about 2 million residents and the Madison-Janesville-Beloit CSA has about 900,000 residents. There are 8 lanes of Interstate highway directly connecting the two areas - I-43 and I-94 - and long-term could end up being 10 to 12 lanes.

Now let's take the absurdity further. There's the Chicago metro area that has about 10 million residents connected to both. It has no fewer than 14 lanes of freeway connecting Madison and Milwaukee to Chicago. Even taking Madison out of the picture, there's 8 lanes of freeway connection minimum, and much of that is 10 or 12 lanes. At no point has anyone ever complained of I-94 between Milwaukee and Chicago being overbuilt. Did I mention there's also significant passenger rail connecting the two areas?

Southern Michigan has roughly 8 to 9 million residents, 5.3 million of them in the greater Detroit metro area. All of them realistically have to go through Toledo and follow I-75 south to get to Columbus, so it's a reasonable comparison. Even in the best-case scenario, if ODOT magically makes a Toledo-Columbus freeway connection happen in the next 20 years, it will be at minimum only 4 lanes of freeway (exactly half of Milwaukee-Chicago).

OK, so why the hell isn't there a I-73 connecting at least Columbus to Toledo (if not to Ann Arbor or Flint)? In 1950, the Columbus metro area was only about 500,000 to Cleveland's 1.7 million and Cincinnati's 1.25 million, so possibly there's room for forgiveness. Nobody was expecting Columbus to become the second-largest metro area in Ohio by 2020. But even by 1960, Columbus' leap to over 1 million should've been a clue it was going to grow fast. It's population doubled again in the following 50 years (1960-2010), and maintained that growth rate into the 2020s.

Columbus does have a healthy 6 lane I-71 corridor connecting it to the other two major metros in Ohio, and the 4 to 6 lane I-70 corridor connecting it to the rest of the Midwest and the East Coast. One could argue this freeway investment exists less because of the importance of the Columbus metro itself (at least in the 1950s), and more the fact that's it's strategically located between larger metro areas. It's only in the last 30-40 years that the Columbus metro has become nationally significant (like Cleveland and Cincinnati), and at a time that highway growth has been comparatively glacial.

Columbus' highway connectivity to the north and northwest as a result is quite poor. There is no direct 4-lane highway connectivity between Columbus and the Fort Wayne metro (similar size to Toledo metro), freeway or otherwise. You have to take the overwhelmed US-23 to connect to US-30, or take the mostly 2-lane US-33. The aforementioned connection to Toledo (and on to Michigan) may be more direct, but doesn't even merit one highway designation - you have to cycle through at least 3, and you partially share the I-75 portion with Dayton and Cincinnati.

It's connectivity to Chicago (to its northwest) is also quite poor - it doesn't enjoy the direct routing Cleveland and Cincinnati enjoy. Columbus either has to share I-80/90 with Cleveland and Toledo, or I-65 with Indianapolis and Cincinnati, with a jog to connect to either path. Or, you're stuck on the stoplight-infested US-23, with a brief no-stoplight run on US-30 to Fort Wayne, and then another stoplight-infested slog on US-30 through Indiana to the Toll Road.

The highway network south and southeast of Columbus, by comparison, is punching above its weight. US-23 south of Columbus may be an older stoplight-infested 4-lane, but it's at least mostly divided highway south to Portsmouth and (eventually) Huntington. You have a mostly 4-lane US-35 branching off to Point Pleasant to Charleston. You also have 4-lane expressway US-33 connecting to Athens and I-77, with a branch of 4-lane expressway US-50 to Parkersburg. You have ADHS funding to thank for much of this.

There was nothing similar to the Interstate Highway Act or even a ADHS helping with north and northwest connectivity to Columbus. So while there's a longish section of freeway/expressway US-33, it peters out to 2-lane well before reaching I-75, let alone Fort Wayne. And while much of the Toledo-Columbus trip is on freeway or 4-lane expressway, the section between I-270 and Delaware - the section most in need of being a freeway, is a suburban surface street.

Speaking of Fort Wayne, did I mention it has a 4-lane expressway/freeway connection to Toledo (US-24)? That's better than Columbus - and both metros are less than half the size!

Nobody in charge of regional, state, or national-level planning ever envisioned Columbus to become a major metro area on the same level as Cleveland or Cincinnati. US-23 north of I-270 was 4-laned relatively early on - I'm guessing late 1940s or early 1950s - and the planners never envisioned it would need to become a freeway facility. By the time the planners started waking up,  they didn't have the cash cow of the Interstate Highway Act to properly address it. To be blunt, they f***ed up. And nowhere else is that f*** up more evident than trying to get from I-270 to Delaware on US-23.

[Strider]

So who at ODOT is treating I-73 like Frankenstein?
https://publicinput.com/23connect

I doubt it is related to I-73, but you never know.

Yeah, I'm sure we'd hear far more chatter about if if a new Interstate was in the cards. But it's been obvious for decades that this current section of US-23 is overwhelmed with its task of being a suburban commuter corridor and commercial corridor on top of handling regional and inter-state (not Interstate, but state to state) traffic.

TL;DR: The lack of direct freeway connection between Toledo and Columbus is a monumental regional, state, and federal planning f***-up.

US-23 and OH-15 between Findlay and Delaware were built as a higher-speed regional roadway connecting Toledo to Columbus, anticipating that at some point US-23 south of Delaware would be upgraded to freeway. The suburbs came, the commercial retail came, but the upgraded freeway never did. Now they have to figure out how to jam one through suburban sprawl.

It's kind of absurd that two significant metro areas within the state aren't connected by freeway to each other - the Toledo-Findlay-Tiffin CSA is approx. 830,000 residents, the Columbus-Marion-Zanesville CSA is about 2.5 million. The *one* direct road connecting Toledo to Columbus is effectively a surface street for a significant portion of its length, carrying enough traffic for a 6 to 8 lane freeway. 

Just for comparison's sake, in Wisconsin, the Milwaukee-Racine-Waukesha CSA has about 2 million residents and the Madison-Janesville-Beloit CSA has about 900,000 residents. There are 8 lanes of Interstate highway directly connecting the two areas - I-43 and I-94 - and long-term could end up being 10 to 12 lanes.

Now let's take the absurdity further. There's the Chicago metro area that has about 10 million residents connected to both. It has no fewer than 14 lanes of freeway connecting Madison and Milwaukee to Chicago. Even taking Madison out of the picture, there's 8 lanes of freeway connection minimum, and much of that is 10 or 12 lanes. At no point has anyone ever complained of I-94 between Milwaukee and Chicago being overbuilt. Did I mention there's also significant passenger rail connecting the two areas?

Southern Michigan has roughly 8 to 9 million residents, 5.3 million of them in the greater Detroit metro area. All of them realistically have to go through Toledo and follow I-75 south to get to Columbus, so it's a reasonable comparison. Even in the best-case scenario, if ODOT magically makes a Toledo-Columbus freeway connection happen in the next 20 years, it will be at minimum only 4 lanes of freeway (exactly half of Milwaukee-Chicago).

OK, so why the hell isn't there a I-73 connecting at least Columbus to Toledo (if not to Ann Arbor or Flint)? In 1950, the Columbus metro area was only about 500,000 to Cleveland's 1.7 million and Cincinnati's 1.25 million, so possibly there's room for forgiveness. Nobody was expecting Columbus to become the second-largest metro area in Ohio by 2020. But even by 1960, Columbus' leap to over 1 million should've been a clue it was going to grow fast. It's population doubled again in the following 50 years (1960-2010), and maintained that growth rate into the 2020s.

Columbus does have a healthy 6 lane I-71 corridor connecting it to the other two major metros in Ohio, and the 4 to 6 lane I-70 corridor connecting it to the rest of the Midwest and the East Coast. One could argue this freeway investment exists less because of the importance of the Columbus metro itself (at least in the 1950s), and more the fact that's it's strategically located between larger metro areas. It's only in the last 30-40 years that the Columbus metro has become nationally significant (like Cleveland and Cincinnati), and at a time that highway growth has been comparatively glacial.

Columbus' highway connectivity to the north and northwest as a result is quite poor. There is no direct 4-lane highway connectivity between Columbus and the Fort Wayne metro (similar size to Toledo metro), freeway or otherwise. You have to take the overwhelmed US-23 to connect to US-30, or take the mostly 2-lane US-33. The aforementioned connection to Toledo (and on to Michigan) may be more direct, but doesn't even merit one highway designation - you have to cycle through at least 3, and you partially share the I-75 portion with Dayton and Cincinnati.

It's connectivity to Chicago (to its northwest) is also quite poor - it doesn't enjoy the direct routing Cleveland and Cincinnati enjoy. Columbus either has to share I-80/90 with Cleveland and Toledo, or I-65 with Indianapolis and Cincinnati, with a jog to connect to either path. Or, you're stuck on the stoplight-infested US-23, with a brief no-stoplight run on US-30 to Fort Wayne, and then another stoplight-infested slog on US-30 through Indiana to the Toll Road.

The highway network south and southeast of Columbus, by comparison, is punching above its weight. US-23 south of Columbus may be an older stoplight-infested 4-lane, but it's at least mostly divided highway south to Portsmouth and (eventually) Huntington. You have a mostly 4-lane US-35 branching off to Point Pleasant to Charleston. You also have 4-lane expressway US-33 connecting to Athens and I-77, with a branch of 4-lane expressway US-50 to Parkersburg. You have ADHS funding to thank for much of this.

There was nothing similar to the Interstate Highway Act or even a ADHS helping with north and northwest connectivity to Columbus. So while there's a longish section of freeway/expressway US-33, it peters out to 2-lane well before reaching I-75, let alone Fort Wayne. And while much of the Toledo-Columbus trip is on freeway or 4-lane expressway, the section between I-270 and Delaware - the section most in need of being a freeway, is a suburban surface street.

Speaking of Fort Wayne, did I mention it has a 4-lane expressway/freeway connection to Toledo (US-24)? That's better than Columbus - and both metros are less than half the size!

Nobody in charge of regional, state, or national-level planning ever envisioned Columbus to become a major metro area on the same level as Cleveland or Cincinnati. US-23 north of I-270 was 4-laned relatively early on - I'm guessing late 1940s or early 1950s - and the planners never envisioned it would need to become a freeway facility. By the time the planners started waking up,  they didn't have the cash cow of the Interstate Highway Act to properly address it. To be blunt, they f***ed up. And nowhere else is that f*** up more evident than trying to get from I-270 to Delaware on US-23.

I agree. they f*** up. No question about it.

[SkyPesos]

For Columbus-Chicago, I suggested an expressway US 33/US 30 corridor via Fort Wayne in fictional before, as most of the road is already 4 laned, except for US 33 between Decatur and St Marys, and between Wapokoneta and Bellefontaine. Bypasses around towns will be necessary, especially around Russels Point:


But in general, for such a centrally located large city in the state, Columbus's freeway connections are a disappointment, compared to peer cities like Indianapolis, which have interstates radiating out of the city in 7 directions (8 in the near future), as well as an expressway heading due north. Columbus have 4 interstates radiating out of the metro area, 2 traffic light infested 4 lane expressways US 23  heading towards pretty important points on both ends, a second freeway complimenting I-70 going due east, 2 freeway segments that dead end in Athens and Bellefontaine (imo, the 4 lane section of US 33 southeast of Cbus should really continue all the way to I-77, if nothing is to be done with improving US 23 on the US 23/35 routing to Charleston WV).

[skluth]

Columbus to Chicago is covered by I-65/70. The direct route via Lima and Ft Wayne is 326 miles. It's only 30 miles longer via I-65/70. That's more than adequate for most purposes. As the Stones sang:
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime you find
You get what you need

I do agree that there should be a full freeway connection between Columbus and Toledo (and by extension, to Detroit and the rest of Michigan). A short freeway connecting US 23 to I-71 north of Delaware or a freeway connecting US 23 to US 33 north and parallel to US 42 would both work as would upgrading US 68 to freeway between Findlay and Bellefontaine.

[SkyPesos]

I do agree that there should be a full freeway connection between Columbus and Toledo (and by extension, to Detroit and the rest of Michigan). A short freeway connecting US 23 to I-71 north of Delaware or a freeway connecting US 23 to US 33 north and parallel to US 42 would both work as would upgrading US 68 to freeway between Findlay and Bellefontaine.

AFAIK, ODOT is studying both alternatives to the west and east of US 23 for a better connection between I-270 and Waldo, with the western routing heading towards US 33, and the eastern routing towards I-71.