Wisconsin notes

[peterj920]

Saves miles on the car also, plus fuel costs.  A lot of people take the ferry also for leisure and they enjoy the experience.  Distance on the Lake Express between Milwaukee and Muskegon is more up for debate on time and money saved.  That saves about 1.5 hrs of travel time if traffic is normal and that ferry is faster since the 2 cities are closer by car than Manitowoc and Ludington are.  That ferry is also more expensive and there isn't really a cost savings with that ferry.  That ferry is also smaller than the SS Badger and the interior is set up more like an airplane with seating that looks like coach and first class.  The Lake Express must have business if it's still running, but if you compare the 2 ships the SS Badger looks more enjoyable. 

[JREwing78]

A lot of people take the ferry also for leisure and they enjoy the experience.

Honestly, that would be the point of the SS Badger for me. To drive to Lansing, MI is about 5 hours under perfect traffic conditions, 7 hours if traffic is imperfect. If I timed my trip perfectly to minimize delays at the ports, I'm looking at a 9 1/2 hour drive. There's no time advantage.

[peterj920]

A lot of people take the ferry also for leisure and they enjoy the experience.

Honestly, that would be the point of the SS Badger for me. To drive to Lansing, MI is about 5 hours under perfect traffic conditions, 7 hours if traffic is imperfect. If I timed my trip perfectly to minimize delays at the ports, I'm looking at a 9 1/2 hour drive. There's no time advantage.

From Janesville there wouldn't be since it's pretty far south, and Lansing is pretty far south of Ludington.  From Green Bay and the Fox Cities there would be an advantage since they're farther north.  I use to live in Brillion, which was right on US 10 about 25 miles away from Manitowoc.  If traffic runs smoothly around Chicago driving is a little bit faster, but if there's congestion, the ferry is a lot more convenient and quicker.  The drive between Detroit and Ludington is a pretty easy drive.  The duration of the trip was close to 50/50 driving and being on the boat. 

[SEWIGuy]

A lot of people take the ferry also for leisure and they enjoy the experience.

Honestly, that would be the point of the SS Badger for me. To drive to Lansing, MI is about 5 hours under perfect traffic conditions, 7 hours if traffic is imperfect. If I timed my trip perfectly to minimize delays at the ports, I'm looking at a 9 1/2 hour drive. There's no time advantage.

From Janesville there wouldn't be since it's pretty far south, and Lansing is pretty far south of Ludington.  From Green Bay and the Fox Cities there would be an advantage since they're farther north.  I use to live in Brillion, which was right on US 10 about 25 miles away from Manitowoc.  If traffic runs smoothly around Chicago driving is a little bit faster, but if there's congestion, the ferry is a lot more convenient and quicker.  The drive between Detroit and Ludington is a pretty easy drive.  The duration of the trip was close to 50/50 driving and being on the boat. 

But the issue is that not many people need to take that trip on a regular basis.  That is why they market themselves as more of a vacation or leisurely experience. 

[Mrt90]

How long does the ferry take?  And how much time does it save?

The Manitowoc-Ludington ferry takes 4 hours to cross Lake Michigan.  If you were literally travelling between those two cities it would probably save you a few hours, but few people actually do that.  If you were driving between Wausau, Wi and Grand Rapids, MI, or between Madison, Wi and Traverse City, MI for a couple of examples, it would probably be a little faster to drive south toward Chicago and then back north.  Unless your departure and destination is pretty close (within 50 miles or so) to Manitowoc and Ludington the ferry is probably not faster.

Does this include the time you sit in traffic through Chicago or assume you make it through there with only minor delays?

Well, Chicago traffic is the wildcard.  Of course, you also have to time the ferry correctly, and factor in a wait time there.  Basically, the further away you start/finish from Manitowoc/Ludington the less time advantage you seem to have with the ferry.  But as others have pointed out, there are other considerations (gas/wear and tear/stress/leisure), too.

[Mrt90]

How long does the ferry take?  And how much time does it save?

The Manitowoc-Ludington ferry takes 4 hours to cross Lake Michigan.  If you were literally travelling between those two cities it would probably save you a few hours, but few people actually do that.  If you were driving between Wausau, Wi and Grand Rapids, MI, or between Madison, Wi and Traverse City, MI for a couple of examples, it would probably be a little faster to drive south toward Chicago and then back north.  Unless your departure and destination is pretty close (within 50 miles or so) to Manitowoc and Ludington the ferry is probably not faster.

Does this include the time you sit in traffic through Chicago or assume you make it through there with only minor delays?

What about tolls? It's been years since I made the trip from WI to MI via IL and IN. How much does that trip cost these days? The value of being able to avoid Chicagoland traffic alone has got to be worth a decent amount of money.

It depends upon the exact route, of course, but I think the most you would have to pay, if you paid in cash, would be just under $15 for the most expensive route.

[JMAN_WiS&S]

I took a little trip down Lake Street in Eau Claire: (click to enlarge)














(Yes, they where taken with a phone, sorry there not the best.)

As long as there is a full backplate used, as seen above, doghouse stop lights could grow on me.

Wow I didn't know this was here. I will have to bike down there soon and check it out. This installation looks far better than the galloway/farwell one. That two monotubes for two different directions on one pole looks tacky.

[Revive 755]

I have a feeling as time passes, the stop bar signal head will go away as engineers realize it is not needed anymore.

Plus the intersection in the news clip gives a perfect example of why not to have the stop bar signal head.  A stop bar signal head and yield sign at that intersection would only be a few feet from each other which could confuse drivers (especially those unfamiliar with Wi's stop bar signal head standard).  By removing the stop bar signal head, it is clear to drivers making a right turn that the yield sign controls that movement.

But in cases where the right turn is signalized, the stop bar/near right signal head can be useful if one is following a semi or other large vehicle.  The far side right cannot always be placed far enough right to get the same visibility.

I can't make out for sure what the far left heads on the legs with the doghouses are; are they standard FYA heads or four sections with a bimodal green arrow/FYA section?

[peterj920]

Trombone assembly not dead yet.  In Altoona a new traffic signal is being installed.  Interesting how the Eau Claire area is getting all of the new traffic signal installations.  Fast forward to :05 on the video link below.

http://www.wqow.com/story/29514249/2015/07/09/river-prairie-drive-closes-overnight-for-traffic-light-installation

[JMAN_WiS&S]

Trombone assembly not dead yet.  In Altoona a new traffic signal is being installed.  Interesting how the Eau Claire area is getting all of the new traffic signal installations.  Fast forward to :05 on the video link below.

http://www.wqow.com/story/29514249/2015/07/09/river-prairie-drive-closes-overnight-for-traffic-light-installation

Those are not new. Those have been here since the 53 bypass was constructed with the river prairie exit. New intersections on river prairie Dr. Show the new monotube style signals, with fya, so either they are taking down the trombone signals in the video and then replaced them, or have updated them with fya. I just know those trombones have been there as long as the exit. Check gsv.
BUT- Yes they still are being installed. Last fall the I94&WI37 Interchange facelift was complete with new monotone signals, but here's the catch- For the Eastbound I94 Entrance/Exit and the crowd that connects on the other side of the intersection, trombones with horizontal signals were used, even though 37 got new vertical monotone signals. The other WB entrance/exit intersection is all vertical monotone.

[Roadguy]

BUT- Yes they still are being installed. Last fall the I94&WI37 Interchange facelift was complete with new monotone signals, but here's the catch- For the Eastbound I94 Entrance/Exit and the crowd that connects on the other side of the intersection, trombones with horizontal signals were used, even though 37 got new vertical monotone signals. The other WB entrance/exit intersection is all vertical monotone.

This is not specifically a remark for the WI 37 and I94 interchange but more of a general comment.  I am not a fan of intermixing the two styles.  Drivers have the expectation of looking for similar signal layouts at the same intersection (It should all be either horizontal or all be vertical).

Drivers get use to looking for one style and get accustomed to looking for signal heads in specific places.  An example is if you go through 3 intersections in a downtown and 2 have overhead mast arms but the 3rd only has signal heads on poles on either side, a driver may be looking for an overhead signal head at the 3rd intersection and because they don't see it, run the light.  I know it is the drivers fault if they run a red but still it is good to have consistency for this exact reason.

I'm being bold and am definitely going to get some feedback on this statement, in my opinion the horizontal layouts and trombone arms should be phased out (not mandatory by a certain date but when an intersection comes up for a rebuild).  I know many people love the trombones but in the future as the MUTCD and FHWA wind loading requirements get more stringent the trombones will not meet the standards.  I also believe connecting highway limits are a terrible idea (especially for signal maintenance and signal coordination), but that's another whole conversation.  Creating a specific signal layout at intersections across the state allows for drivers to expect signal heads to be located in a specific location as they go through intersections (Think about it, that is what we see today with the trombone set up, because it is the standard, drivers became accustomed to it looking for signal heads in specific locations).  It also creates a uniform construction specification for construction materials, construction practices, ease in estimating bid prices, etc for contractors and construction.  If a municipality comes up with their own pole style (Green Bay or Milwaukee are a perfect example) it has to mean the signal heads get placed in similar locations and vertical like the rest of the state.  The current policy of letting municipalities do what they want just will create a hodge podge mess of signal layouts and poles across the state.

[SSOWorld]

The trombone based assemblies meet the MUTCD signal per lane setups just fine.  WisDOT replaces the trombone with the monotube but adds more signal heads to the overall count - that's excessive..

[noelbotevera]

A lot of people take the ferry also for leisure and they enjoy the experience.

Honestly, that would be the point of the SS Badger for me. To drive to Lansing, MI is about 5 hours under perfect traffic conditions, 7 hours if traffic is imperfect. If I timed my trip perfectly to minimize delays at the ports, I'm looking at a 9 1/2 hour drive. There's no time advantage.

From Janesville there wouldn't be since it's pretty far south, and Lansing is pretty far south of Ludington.  From Green Bay and the Fox Cities there would be an advantage since they're farther north.  I use to live in Brillion, which was right on US 10 about 25 miles away from Manitowoc.  If traffic runs smoothly around Chicago driving is a little bit faster, but if there's congestion, the ferry is a lot more convenient and quicker.  The drive between Detroit and Ludington is a pretty easy drive.  The duration of the trip was close to 50/50 driving and being on the boat. 

But the issue is that not many people need to take that trip on a regular basis.  That is why they market themselves as more of a vacation or leisurely experience.

No, the ferry is used for people who want to shortcut from Chicago and jump into Michigan. It helps for people who live in the Twin Cities all the way to Wisconsin towns and cities if you want to head to Detroit and Grand Rapids (or Lansing).

[Rothman]

A lot of people take the ferry also for leisure and they enjoy the experience.

Honestly, that would be the point of the SS Badger for me. To drive to Lansing, MI is about 5 hours under perfect traffic conditions, 7 hours if traffic is imperfect. If I timed my trip perfectly to minimize delays at the ports, I'm looking at a 9 1/2 hour drive. There's no time advantage.

From Janesville there wouldn't be since it's pretty far south, and Lansing is pretty far south of Ludington.  From Green Bay and the Fox Cities there would be an advantage since they're farther north.  I use to live in Brillion, which was right on US 10 about 25 miles away from Manitowoc.  If traffic runs smoothly around Chicago driving is a little bit faster, but if there's congestion, the ferry is a lot more convenient and quicker.  The drive between Detroit and Ludington is a pretty easy drive.  The duration of the trip was close to 50/50 driving and being on the boat. 

But the issue is that not many people need to take that trip on a regular basis.  That is why they market themselves as more of a vacation or leisurely experience.

No, the ferry is used for people who want to shortcut from Chicago and jump into Michigan. It helps for people who live in the Twin Cities all the way to Wisconsin towns and cities if you want to head to Detroit and Grand Rapids (or Lansing).

What are you basing this statement on?

[Brandon]

A lot of people take the ferry also for leisure and they enjoy the experience.

Honestly, that would be the point of the SS Badger for me. To drive to Lansing, MI is about 5 hours under perfect traffic conditions, 7 hours if traffic is imperfect. If I timed my trip perfectly to minimize delays at the ports, I'm looking at a 9 1/2 hour drive. There's no time advantage.

From Janesville there wouldn't be since it's pretty far south, and Lansing is pretty far south of Ludington.  From Green Bay and the Fox Cities there would be an advantage since they're farther north.  I use to live in Brillion, which was right on US 10 about 25 miles away from Manitowoc.  If traffic runs smoothly around Chicago driving is a little bit faster, but if there's congestion, the ferry is a lot more convenient and quicker.  The drive between Detroit and Ludington is a pretty easy drive.  The duration of the trip was close to 50/50 driving and being on the boat. 

But the issue is that not many people need to take that trip on a regular basis.  That is why they market themselves as more of a vacation or leisurely experience.

No, the ferry is used for people who want to shortcut from Chicago and jump into Michigan. It helps for people who live in the Twin Cities all the way to Wisconsin towns and cities if you want to head to Detroit and Grand Rapids (or Lansing).

What are you basing this statement on?

The fact that driving through Chicago sucks major brass balls.

[Rothman]

A lot of people take the ferry also for leisure and they enjoy the experience.

Honestly, that would be the point of the SS Badger for me. To drive to Lansing, MI is about 5 hours under perfect traffic conditions, 7 hours if traffic is imperfect. If I timed my trip perfectly to minimize delays at the ports, I'm looking at a 9 1/2 hour drive. There's no time advantage.

From Janesville there wouldn't be since it's pretty far south, and Lansing is pretty far south of Ludington.  From Green Bay and the Fox Cities there would be an advantage since they're farther north.  I use to live in Brillion, which was right on US 10 about 25 miles away from Manitowoc.  If traffic runs smoothly around Chicago driving is a little bit faster, but if there's congestion, the ferry is a lot more convenient and quicker.  The drive between Detroit and Ludington is a pretty easy drive.  The duration of the trip was close to 50/50 driving and being on the boat. 

But the issue is that not many people need to take that trip on a regular basis.  That is why they market themselves as more of a vacation or leisurely experience.

No, the ferry is used for people who want to shortcut from Chicago and jump into Michigan. It helps for people who live in the Twin Cities all the way to Wisconsin towns and cities if you want to head to Detroit and Grand Rapids (or Lansing).

What are you basing this statement on?

The fact that driving through Chicago sucks major brass balls.

Okay.   

[Brandon]

The fact that driving through Chicago sucks major brass balls.

Okay.   

Sorry, I've had to do that at rush hour many, many times for the obvious reasons (see my location).  It really does suck, and I wish I could avoid it.

[Rothman]

The fact that driving through Chicago sucks major brass balls.

Okay.   

Sorry, I've had to do that at rush hour many, many times for the obvious reasons (see my location). 

On the way to Michigan?

[Brandon]

The fact that driving through Chicago sucks major brass balls.

Okay.   

Sorry, I've had to do that at rush hour many, many times for the obvious reasons (see my location). 

On the way to Michigan?

To Michigan, to Wisconsin, to the Loop, to almost any suburb. 

[Rothman]

The fact that driving through Chicago sucks major brass balls.

Okay.   

Sorry, I've had to do that at rush hour many, many times for the obvious reasons (see my location). 

On the way to Michigan?

To Michigan, to Wisconsin, to the Loop, to almost any suburb. 

Well, obviously you should have taken the ferry!

[Mdcastle]

I have a feeling as time passes, the stop bar signal head will go away as engineers realize it is not needed anymore.

Plus the intersection in the news clip gives a perfect example of why not to have the stop bar signal head.  A stop bar signal head and yield sign at that intersection would only be a few feet from each other which could confuse drivers (especially those unfamiliar with Wi's stop bar signal head standard).  By removing the stop bar signal head, it is clear to drivers making a right turn that the yield sign controls that movement.

But in cases where the right turn is signalized, the stop bar/near right signal head can be useful if one is following a semi or other large vehicle.  The far side right cannot always be placed far enough right to get the same visibility.

I can't make out for sure what the far left heads on the legs with the doghouses are; are they standard FYA heads or four sections with a bimodal green arrow/FYA section?

It's clearly a four section head, with the second from the bottom lit up with a yellow arrow. If it's a copy of the initial Minnesota FYA doghouse installation, which has the exact same configuration except for an additional four section head on the end of the mast in one direction, it operates in split phase during peak times and permissive only at other times. This was the original approved setup, Mn/DOT later modified the phasing to protected/permissive without FHWA approval, and these installations have a second doghouse on the left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onyZQcgkMOw

[JMAN_WiS&S]

I have a feeling as time passes, the stop bar signal head will go away as engineers realize it is not needed anymore.

Plus the intersection in the news clip gives a perfect example of why not to have the stop bar signal head.  A stop bar signal head and yield sign at that intersection would only be a few feet from each other which could confuse drivers (especially those unfamiliar with Wi's stop bar signal head standard).  By removing the stop bar signal head, it is clear to drivers making a right turn that the yield sign controls that movement.

But in cases where the right turn is signalized, the stop bar/near right signal head can be useful if one is following a semi or other large vehicle.  The far side right cannot always be placed far enough right to get the same visibility.

I can't make out for sure what the far left heads on the legs with the doghouses are; are they standard FYA heads or four sections with a bimodal green arrow/FYA section?

It's clearly a four section head, with the second from the bottom lit up with a yellow arrow. If it's a copy of the initial Minnesota FYA doghouse installation, which has the exact same configuration except for an additional four section head on the end of the mast in one direction, it operates in split phase during peak times and permissive only at other times. This was the original approved setup, Mn/DOT later modified the phasing to protected/permissive without FHWA approval, and these installations have a second doghouse on the left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onyZQcgkMOw

I do think this is correct. This intersection and the Farwell/Galloway intersection, the Road with the doghouse fya, there is no dedicated turn lane. It is a split left/thru lane, and since there are video detection cameras, I think when traffic turning left gets backed up yielding, they will get a protected.

[JMAN_WiS&S]

Trombone assembly not dead yet.  In Altoona a new traffic signal is being installed.  Interesting how the Eau Claire area is getting all of the new traffic signal installations.  Fast forward to :05 on the video link below.

http://www.wqow.com/story/29514249/2015/07/09/river-prairie-drive-closes-overnight-for-traffic-light-installation

Further Update: I went by to check this intersection out today, and most of the trombone masts have been removed and only pieces of the old setup remain. I may go get pictures of the whole Construction ordeal near there Friday as well as check out lake/1 st ave.

[FightingIrish]

Looks like Pewaukee may be the future recipient of an echelon intersection. This one would be at WIS 190 (Capitol Drive) and WIS 164.

http://www.lakecountrynow.com/news/lakecountryreporter/residents-react-to-capitol-drive-corridor-study-b99534458z1-315282371.html

[dcharlie]

Maybe one in Madison too...