I-475/US23 projects in Toledo

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

Why do we have a Fictional Highways Forum when everyone posts their fictional nonsense here?

Because Michigan is a fictional state.

[Flint1979]

^ What is the issue with MDOT converting those "flex lanes" that either a) already exist or b) are proposed between Ann Arbor and Brighton to a full 6 lane configuration? As far as I'm seeing, it would result in a cross section with three full size lanes, a full paved right shoulder, and a 3-4 foot paved left shoulder, which is not entirely abnormal for an urban 6 lane highway. And if it's desired in the future, they could widen slightly to the left to provide a full shoulder section.

It seems this would be a big step forward towards a complete 6 laning of the corridor. But for some reason, they insist the shoulder lane is only needed during peak hours in the peak direction.

They should do that but it seems like they are hell bent on adding on to to the flex lanes it doesn't make much sense though the freeway is pretty busy in that area. All I'm asking for is to widen the freeway between I-94 and I-96. I'm not sure what they will do but I have been driving this freeway in this area for the entire time I have had a driver's license and can tell you that they have done very little to address the capacity on US-23. I-94 in the western part of Michigan is the same thing other than the six lanes they have in K-Zoo it's four lanes the entire way to Benton Harbor.

[westerninterloper]

The original post was about widening and rebuilding a part of I-475/US-23 in Ohio. With that I say that is a start but probably nothing will ever come of widening US-23 in Michigan. Toledo is a decent sized metro area so a widening project is probably needed.

US-23 is US-23 because that is what it is nothing more, nothing less. It's worked this way for this long I don't see any point in attempting to fix it unless it is to widen it between Flint and Perrysburg.

North of Toledo:
I-75 (six lanes) carries about 40K to I-275
I-275 (six lanes) between 18 and 40K to I-94
US 23 (four lanes) 27-38K to I-94; it jumps to 62K around Ann Arbor

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-11151_11033-22141--,00.html

[JREwing78]

All I'm asking for is to widen the freeway between I-94 and I-96. I'm not sure what they will do but I have been driving this freeway in this area for the entire time I have had a driver's license and can tell you that they have done very little to address the capacity on US-23.

My guess is it will be at least another 20 years before we see a proper widening. At some point, the original '60s overpasses will have to be replaced, and that will allow MDOT to widen it properly. This flex lane thing was a way to duct-tape it together for a couple decades while placating the commuters.

[TempoNick]

Most of the people using US 23 are Michiganders and Ohioans, and that route goes through important cities in each state - so folks from this area are very familiar that it is a major route (with a few weird detours, like Fostoria), and do use it as a far western bypass of Metro Detroit.

You could make an argument that if/once US 23 between Findlay and Columbus gets upgraded, it should be I-475 from Columbus all the way to Flint. Southern segment south of Flint could be called I-475A or something like that or give it an M-xx number.

Think about it. A Columbus to Ann Arbor freeway is almost poetic.

[TempoNick]

This flex lane thing was a way to duct-tape it together for a couple decades while placating the commuters.

Yesterday was my first time using the I-670 flex Lane in Columbus. For some reason, people seem to be scared to use that lane. Only half the cars were using that lane compared to the existing three full-time lanes.

[TempoNick]

Is The Florida turnpike considered to be a bypass of I-75, and should it be given an I-x75 route number?  I think not.

The Florida Turnpike is one unified road with a single identity. It's not (starting in Columbus and going to Flint) US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again. Now if you're looking for something to call stupid, that's stupid.

[TempoNick]

US-23 is US-23 because that is what it is nothing more, nothing less. It's worked this way for this long I don't see any point in attempting to fix it unless it is to widen it between Flint and Perrysburg.

Pull out a map and look at I-475 in Toledo and eyeball it past Flint. There's a reason both of those highways have the same number. Somebody at ODOT and or MDOT imagined them connecting at some point. It's not really that far-fetched.

[Flint1979]

Why do we have a Fictional Highways Forum when everyone posts their fictional nonsense here?

Because Michigan is a fictional state.

Huh?

[Flint1979]

US-23 is US-23 because that is what it is nothing more, nothing less. It's worked this way for this long I don't see any point in attempting to fix it unless it is to widen it between Flint and Perrysburg.

Pull out a map and look at I-475 in Toledo and eyeball it past Flint. There's a reason both of those highways have the same number. Somebody at ODOT and or MDOT imagined them connecting at some point. It's not really that far-fetched.

No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.

[Rothman]

Why do we have a Fictional Highways Forum when everyone posts their fictional nonsense here?

Because Michigan is a fictional state.

Huh?

Fauxhio, too.

[countysigns]

The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times.  In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.

Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange.  I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.

Maybe what has changed is that Dana and The Andersons have new HQ buildings at Maumee Western. Commuters don't want to fight the traffic on Dussel?

I was also pondering why they would build that interchange. Here's a reason given in the article:

For the port authority, an I-475 interchange at Maumee-Western will function in particular as a new way to get to Eugene F. Kranz Toledo Express Airport, particularly for trucks traveling to or from industrial sites on the airfield's south side.

Airport Highway (OH-2) is not a good route for cargo trucks to take to get to Toledo Express.  I don't think it EVER was a good route.  From its primitive origins as a two-lane road known as Chicago Pike, the growth along Airport Highway has been mind-boggling.  You have two shopping centers on Airport just west of I-475/US-23, a road that was been expanded at least twice and now there is heavy commercial growth all the way past Holloway Road.  With commercial growth, you have traffic and traffic signals and trucks having to stop and start for the whole stretch from I-475/US-23 all the way to Toledo Express.  And now that the Salisbury/Dussel area has exploded in growth, ODOT is having to play catch-up to meet the demand.  Hopefully with the new Maumee-Western interchange (US-20A) and the continued widening of I-475/US-23 southward, this helps accommodate the increased demand.  Plus, Toledo Express is more of a cargo airport than a passenger airport and a lot of the cargo traffic ends up having to go to the south edge of Toledo Express, along US-20A.  So the interchange plan works.  I'm curious to see how much build-up happens once the new interchange opens.  Right now, there is an industrial park just west of I-475/US-23 along Maumee-Western (US-20A) that is primed to grow once the new interchange is built.

[triplemultiplex]

This flex lane thing was a way to duct-tape it together for a couple decades while placating the commuters.

Yesterday was my first time using the I-670 flex Lane in Columbus. For some reason, people seem to be scared to use that lane. Only half the cars were using that lane compared to the existing three full-time lanes.

Interesting.  I wonder if there will exist the same phenomenon in Madison when they finally open the flex lane on The Beltline.  At least in the early days before anyone gets used to it.

[JREwing78]

^ What is the issue with MDOT converting those "flex lanes" that either a) already exist or b) are proposed between Ann Arbor and Brighton to a full 6 lane configuration?

Thoroughly discussed in this thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2055.0

Basically, at least based on current standards, they would have needed a 12-foot inner shoulder for a full-time 6-laning, and that would've radically jumped the price tag (at the time, the flex lanes were $120 million v.s. $600 million for a full widening). MDOT didn't come out and say it, but I suspect this was a federal funding issue, because there's plenty of examples within Michigan of similar or narrower shoulders on a 6-lane roadway.

[sprjus4]

I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.

This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

[TempoNick]

No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.

Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.

That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL

I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.

This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.

But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?

[GaryV]

Can people not see on the map that it is shorter? And for those who no longer know how to read maps, does mapping software not tell you that it's shorter to use US-23?

[TempoNick]

Can people not see on the map that it is shorter? And for those who no longer know how to read maps, does mapping software not tell you that it's shorter to use US-23?

Not everybody is a road geek. Not everybody wants to chance it that US-23 is going to be a stoplight after stoplight after stoplight kind of road. Why all the opposition to making it easy for people?

Image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QixBcCM9pV4ioITQacacySsEcJoEHndx/view?usp=sharing

If you guys can't see the beauty of a single unified Interstate highway from Columbus to Flint using an Ix75 number and connecting back to I-75 at Flint, then what can I say?

Orrrrrrrrrrr ......... back to I-73 again.

[Flint1979]

Can people not see on the map that it is shorter? And for those who no longer know how to read maps, does mapping software not tell you that it's shorter to use US-23?

Not everybody is a road geek. Not everybody wants to chance it that US-23 is going to be a stoplight after stoplight after stoplight kind of road. Why all the opposition to making it easy for people?

Image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QixBcCM9pV4ioITQacacySsEcJoEHndx/view?usp=sharing

If you guys can't see the beauty of a single unified Interstate highway from Columbus to Flint using an Ix75 number and connecting back to I-75 at Flint, then what can I say?

Orrrrrrrrrrr ......... back to I-73 again.

Because there is no point to do it. Just to make some people happy isn't a good enough reason. There is no need for an Interstate from Columbus to Flint, heck ODOT hasn't even built one from Columbus to Toledo so why would there be a reason to have one from Columbus to Flint? US-23 connects at both ends as it is so why does the number need to be changed? You are talking to people that live near it and/or drive it on a regular basis. We know what US-23 is and where it takes us and don't need it to be an Interstate to help us along.

[Flint1979]

I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.

This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

Yeah that's what it does, nothing I've ever really had to think of while driving. Point being I already know what US-23 is, it does and where it takes me.

[Flint1979]

No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.

Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.

That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL

I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.

This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.

But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?

I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.

[skluth]

No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.

Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.

That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL

I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.

This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.

But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?

I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.

This is still all fictional. Let it go.

[TempoNick]

Because there is no point to do it.

No point to seamless connectivity, consistency and making things less confusing to travelers?

[sprjus4]

Because there is no point to do it.

No point to seamless connectivity, consistency and making things less confusing to travelers?

Obviously not, because it doesn't benefit him because he's local and knows the road.

[Terry Shea]

US-23 is US-23 because that is what it is nothing more, nothing less. It's worked this way for this long I don't see any point in attempting to fix it unless it is to widen it between Flint and Perrysburg.

Pull out a map and look at I-475 in Toledo and eyeball it past Flint. There's a reason both of those highways have the same number. Somebody at ODOT and or MDOT imagined them connecting at some point. It's not really that far-fetched.

The reason is because that is how 3-digit interstates are normally numbered.  The first digit increases from south to north and from west to east.  Each state does this independently of other states (usually).  Nobody at MDOT or ODOT imagined connecting them.  If what you said were the case, then I-275 in the Detroit area, I-275 in the Cincinnati area, I-275 in Knoxville and I-275 in the Tampa/St. Petersburg should all be connected and have the same route number.  So, you would either have to multiplex I-275 with I-75 for most of the route, or have a discontinuous I-75 with the rest renumbered I-275, except for the points where I-275 presently branches off from I-75, which would remain I-75.