Interstate 11

[KeithE4Phx]

That's very interesting. I-17 extended south would make more sense especially if(and that's a big if I can't stress that enough) it's ever extended north to I-70.

That is entirely up to the Navajo Nation.  Don't hold your breath.  It's their land and they have the final say.

[US 89]

That’s very interesting. I-17 extended south would make more sense especially if(and that’s a big if I can’t stress that enough) it’s ever extended north to I-70.

That is entirely up to the Navajo Nation.  Don't hold your breath.  It's their land and they have the final say.

I-17 is never getting extended north. Ever.

The only way I could even see it justified is as some sort of Mexico-Phoenix-SLC truck route, which may have been a decent idea at one time but that idea has pretty much been replaced by US 93/I-11. Especially once the 4-lane on 93 is finished in the somewhat near future. Sure, US 89 is a straighter line on a map between Phoenix and SLC, but it is way less truck-friendly than 93. With 89 you're getting well over 7000 feet and you're crossing mountains in Utah and northern Arizona where it actually snows in winter. US 93 and I-15 avoid those problems.

Maybe some upgrades/4-lanes might be in order on some parts between Flagstaff and Page, but nothing is ever going to happen beyond that aside from maybe some more passing lanes. In addition to the minefields of protected land designations/national monuments/etc and Indian reservations in that area, your single biggest obstacle to a longer I-17 is that you'd need to build a brand new interstate-grade Colorado River bridge - a tremendous and entirely unnecessary expense given the fairly light traffic counts out there. Utah and Arizona both have far more pressing needs to spend their road money on.

[Plutonic Panda]

If I had to guess a theoretical I-17 north extension would follow US-89 to US-160 and move east through Tuba City moving through Kayenta where it'd eventually more or less follow US-191 to I-70. It'd get very interesting crossing the San Juan river but really IMO the biggest obstacle would be getting it through Moab.

I would think that the Navajo Nation would be more willing to support it then the residents of Moab. I have been spending a lot of time in Moab lately and found residents there, especially long time residents, are pretty anti growth/development. My guess is any highway through would likely have to be tunneled to have any remote possibility of happening.

There does seem to be a small faction of Navajo Tribal Members that are pro growth so I don't think you wouldn't see any support for it but for the meantime I'd say it isn't very likely.

[kernals12]

Yeesh.  Everything south of I-10 is just a developer pork project rather than one designed to further the transportation needs of regional travelers.  Why not just send it down AZ 85 to I-8 and terminate there?  That would fill in a genuine gap in the interstate system and not put in pointless extra mileage.  And why does it need to overlap or replace I-19?  If I-19 were to be replaced by something, I'd rather it be I-17 so that I-17's numbers would at least (appear to - they'd still be off by ~20 miles) make sense.  Is this some back-door way to force I-19 away from metric?

The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.

That's not what we were told back when I-11 proponents were trying to get traction to get the project started.

I don't think you realize just how much Arizona is projected to grow in the future. If that growth happens in existing cities, it will mean more congestion and less livability. Sprawl means that existing communities aren't faced with the burdens of more people.

But west of the White Tank Mountains?  Who is going to live all the way the hell out there when there is no direct access over that range over than slogging all the way down to I-10?  The most practical path I-11 could have took was down US 60 and AZ 303 to reach I-10.  At least if I-11 went down to I-8 via AZ 85 it would serve as a long haul bypass of Phoenix from the Tucson and border areas around Nogales.

As a matter of fact, they're planning two freeways in that area.

That map is close to 15 years old -- ancient and obsolete.  It's so old that it calls the Gateway Fwy AZ 802 (it's AZ 24), and the Tres Rios Fwy AZ 801 (it will be AZ 30),  With the route of I-11 going so far west, I don't know when or if they'll ever build the Loop 404, which was supposed to be taken over by I-11.

The Gateway Fwy is currently being expanded, but only the ramps and the ground-level pavement, similar to the original construction of AZ 51, 40 years ago.  There's no funding yet to upgrade it to a full freeway.

The Tres Rios is being fast-tracked, from what I've heard, because of the extreme overload on I-10 in the West Valley.  It's still many years away from completion.

The Pinal North/South Fwy has just been approved, but it also is not funded.  There is also funding to complete the Loop 303 as a full freeway in Peoria, including full ramps at I-17.  AZ 85 will also be upgraded to a full freeway between I-10 and I-8, but when it happens is anybody's guess.

Those are the only freeways that are guaranteed to get built in the next decade.  I-11 will eventually get done, but it will remain US 93 for the unforeseeable future, even after 4-laning is complete.

You can throw away every other freeway proposal.  Not gonna happen in my lifetime (and I'm 66).

There's enough planned development up there to justify a freeway connecting I-11 to Loop 303.

And ADOT has issued an EIS for the Pinal North South Freeway

The Great Recession delayed a lot of growth for the Phoenix area, but now it's back on track and they need to prepare for an extra 2-3 million people by the middle of the century. Most of these extra people will be living in the West Valley and Pinal County.

[kernals12]

If I had to guess a theoretical I-17 north extension would follow US-89 to US-160 and move east through Tuba City moving through Kayenta where it'd eventually more or less follow US-191 to I-70. It'd get very interesting crossing the San Juan river but really IMO the biggest obstacle would be getting it through Moab.

I would think that the Navajo Nation would be more willing to support it then the residents of Moab. I have been spending a lot of time in Moab lately and found residents there, especially long time residents, are pretty anti growth/development. My guess is any highway through would likely have to be tunneled to have any remote possibility of happening.

There does seem to be a small faction of Navajo Tribal Members that are pro growth so I don't think you wouldn't see any support for it but for the meantime I'd say it isn't very likely.

I imagine that environmentalists would have a bone to pick with building an interstate highway over the Colorado River upstream of Lakes Powell and Mead

[silverback1065]

why the hell would you extend 17 north of flagstaff?

[kernals12]

why the hell would you extend 17 north of flagstaff?

To provide better access to Alanland

[vdeane]

Yeesh.  Everything south of I-10 is just a developer pork project rather than one designed to further the transportation needs of regional travelers.  Why not just send it down AZ 85 to I-8 and terminate there?  That would fill in a genuine gap in the interstate system and not put in pointless extra mileage.  And why does it need to overlap or replace I-19?  If I-19 were to be replaced by something, I'd rather it be I-17 so that I-17's numbers would at least (appear to - they'd still be off by ~20 miles) make sense.  Is this some back-door way to force I-19 away from metric?

The purpose of I-11 is to get trucks from Nogales to Las Vegas, while bypassing Phoenix.

That's not what we were told back when I-11 proponents were trying to get traction to get the project started.

I don't think you realize just how much Arizona is projected to grow in the future. If that growth happens in existing cities, it will mean more congestion and less livability. Sprawl means that existing communities aren't faced with the burdens of more people.

I don't care so much if they build a freeway there, I don't think it should be I-11 regardless.  Running it down AZ 85 would make for an outer bypass of Phoenix and provide a missing like in the interstate system by providing an all-interstate link between San Diego and Phoenix.  The route actually proposed predominantly helps local traffic and really isn't a good use of a 2di.

[Max Rockatansky]

why the hell would you extend 17 north of flagstaff?

To provide better access to Alanland

How?  Alanland is somewhere in the vicinity of Eureka, California.  That's why Eureka PD is tied to lore via being the enforcement quad for TheAlan360.

[kdk]

Anything south of I-10 for I-11 is just ROW preservation at this point.

35 years ago people thought the Loop 303 "planned way out in the middle of farm fields"  would never be necessary with the Loop 101 being planned west of Phoenix, it's just the way AZ grows. 

But I do see a need for both an upgraded 85 and I-11 in the future unless AZ just stops growing.  There is a lot of developable residential areas, and the 85 corridor is going to be mostly industrial similarly to what you are seeing along the 303 north of I-10.  The upgraded 85 actually is somewhat needed now, and will suffice for 20-30 years but again a second corridor will be needed once that area fills in.

[vdeane]

Anything south of I-10 for I-11 is just ROW preservation at this point.

35 years ago people thought the Loop 303 "planned way out in the middle of farm fields"  would never be necessary with the Loop 101 being planned west of Phoenix, it's just the way AZ grows. 

But I do see a need for both an upgraded 85 and I-11 in the future unless AZ just stops growing.  There is a lot of developable residential areas, and the 85 corridor is going to be mostly industrial similarly to what you are seeing along the 303 north of I-10.  The upgraded 85 actually is somewhat needed now, and will suffice for 20-30 years but again a second corridor will be needed once that area fills in.

So why not send I-11 down AZ 85 and build the local development freeway as a state route with a different number?  That's what would make sense for the interstate system.

[kdk]

Anything south of I-10 for I-11 is just ROW preservation at this point.

35 years ago people thought the Loop 303 "planned way out in the middle of farm fields"  would never be necessary with the Loop 101 being planned west of Phoenix, it's just the way AZ grows. 

But I do see a need for both an upgraded 85 and I-11 in the future unless AZ just stops growing.  There is a lot of developable residential areas, and the 85 corridor is going to be mostly industrial similarly to what you are seeing along the 303 north of I-10.  The upgraded 85 actually is somewhat needed now, and will suffice for 20-30 years but again a second corridor will be needed once that area fills in.

So why not send I-11 down AZ 85 and build the local development freeway as a state route with a different number?  That's what would make sense for the interstate system.

The proposed I-11 is more efficient, being it angles southeast south of I-10.  It would also be a more efficient route towards Tucson as well being that it would be shorter than taking 85 south to I-8 over to I-10.
85 angles slightly to the southwest adding a few miles.  85 will always be the route for drivers in metro Phoenix heading to Yuma or San Diego.  I-11 would finally be a more efficient bypass of Phoenix along I-10.

[vdeane]

Anything south of I-10 for I-11 is just ROW preservation at this point.

35 years ago people thought the Loop 303 "planned way out in the middle of farm fields"  would never be necessary with the Loop 101 being planned west of Phoenix, it's just the way AZ grows. 

But I do see a need for both an upgraded 85 and I-11 in the future unless AZ just stops growing.  There is a lot of developable residential areas, and the 85 corridor is going to be mostly industrial similarly to what you are seeing along the 303 north of I-10.  The upgraded 85 actually is somewhat needed now, and will suffice for 20-30 years but again a second corridor will be needed once that area fills in.

So why not send I-11 down AZ 85 and build the local development freeway as a state route with a different number?  That's what would make sense for the interstate system.

The proposed I-11 is more efficient, being it angles southeast south of I-10.  It would also be a more efficient route towards Tucson as well being that it would be shorter than taking 85 south to I-8 over to I-10.
85 angles slightly to the southwest adding a few miles.  85 will always be the route for drivers in metro Phoenix heading to Yuma or San Diego.  I-11 would finally be a more efficient bypass of Phoenix along I-10.

That feels like corridor-level thinking.  Sure, it may be shorter for that one movement, but how does that fit in with the interstate system as a whole?  The interstates are supposed to function as a harmonious system, not a random collection of corridors.  I-11 as proposed does not feel anything like what we would have gotten if it was planned in 1956 or 1968.

I'm also not a fan of the concept of taking I-11 down to Nogales and overlapping or superseding I-19.

[ztonyg]

Anything south of I-10 for I-11 is just ROW preservation at this point.

35 years ago people thought the Loop 303 "planned way out in the middle of farm fields"  would never be necessary with the Loop 101 being planned west of Phoenix, it's just the way AZ grows. 

But I do see a need for both an upgraded 85 and I-11 in the future unless AZ just stops growing.  There is a lot of developable residential areas, and the 85 corridor is going to be mostly industrial similarly to what you are seeing along the 303 north of I-10.  The upgraded 85 actually is somewhat needed now, and will suffice for 20-30 years but again a second corridor will be needed once that area fills in.

So why not send I-11 down AZ 85 and build the local development freeway as a state route with a different number?  That's what would make sense for the interstate system.

The proposed I-11 is more efficient, being it angles southeast south of I-10.  It would also be a more efficient route towards Tucson as well being that it would be shorter than taking 85 south to I-8 over to I-10.
85 angles slightly to the southwest adding a few miles.  85 will always be the route for drivers in metro Phoenix heading to Yuma or San Diego.  I-11 would finally be a more efficient bypass of Phoenix along I-10.

If you could only spend money on one, upgrading 85 to interstate standards would garner significantly better ROI than the proposed I-11 bypass.

I-10 to an 85 freeway to I-8 would work perfectly well as a Phoenix bypass and it would also work well for Phoenix to Yuma / San Diego traffic. No need to develop a freeway on an alignment that is useless for Phoenix to Yuma / San Diego traffic.

With the recent I-10 widening (and ROW to widen I-10 further) nothing new needs to be built south of I-8.

[kernals12]

Anything south of I-10 for I-11 is just ROW preservation at this point.

35 years ago people thought the Loop 303 "planned way out in the middle of farm fields"  would never be necessary with the Loop 101 being planned west of Phoenix, it's just the way AZ grows. 

But I do see a need for both an upgraded 85 and I-11 in the future unless AZ just stops growing.  There is a lot of developable residential areas, and the 85 corridor is going to be mostly industrial similarly to what you are seeing along the 303 north of I-10.  The upgraded 85 actually is somewhat needed now, and will suffice for 20-30 years but again a second corridor will be needed once that area fills in.

So why not send I-11 down AZ 85 and build the local development freeway as a state route with a different number?  That's what would make sense for the interstate system.

The proposed I-11 is more efficient, being it angles southeast south of I-10.  It would also be a more efficient route towards Tucson as well being that it would be shorter than taking 85 south to I-8 over to I-10.
85 angles slightly to the southwest adding a few miles.  85 will always be the route for drivers in metro Phoenix heading to Yuma or San Diego.  I-11 would finally be a more efficient bypass of Phoenix along I-10.

If you could only spend money on one, upgrading 85 to interstate standards would garner significantly better ROI than the proposed I-11 bypass.

I-10 to an 85 freeway to I-8 would work perfectly well as a Phoenix bypass and it would also work well for Phoenix to Yuma / San Diego traffic. No need to develop a freeway on an alignment that is useless for Phoenix to Yuma / San Diego traffic.

With the recent I-10 widening (and ROW to widen I-10 further) nothing new needs to be built south of I-8.

Citation needed.

[kernals12]

The Interstate system has been designed for local and through-traffic since it was first built. Why is it suddenly a problem here? Developers are putting up new homes in the Phoenix area by the thousand. Just a month ago, the city of Maricopa approved a subdivision with over 6,000 homes.

[roadman65]

Welcome to AA Roads. A place where if you spell a word wrong you get reprimanded by a moderator and a a certain user. A place, too, where if you make a proposal on fictional highways, a good portion of the users think it's not fictional and have massive rage bursts.

In addition a place where the same two users bicker back and forth over the same issues in certain threads. A place also where people break the rules and get their threads locked constantly.


Why should this thread be any different?

[vdeane]

The Interstate system has been designed for local and through-traffic since it was first built. Why is it suddenly a problem here? Developers are putting up new homes in the Phoenix area by the thousand. Just a month ago, the city of Maricopa approved a subdivision with over 6,000 homes.

The original interstate system wouldn't have had two interstates run parallel like I-10 and I-11 will.  2dis served distance purposes to connect the major areas of the country.  A mere bypass/suburban freeway would be a 3di, but of course Arizona hates those.  If I-11 were being planned back then, it would follow US 60 to I-10 or I-17 and terminate there.

Now, sending new construction interstates straight to downtown isn't how we do things these days, so given how far away I-11 would meet I-10, the most logical thing after that would seem to be to improve connectivity between Phoenix and San Diego and Yuma.  South of I-8, I-11 really isn't necessary and I don't understand why Arizona keeps insisting on sending it down to Nogales.  I-19 is already there.

IMO modern interstates tend to lack the elegance of the original 1956/1968 system.  There was definitely more than funding lost when Nixon block-granted federal highway funding.

[armadillo speedbump]

I-11 from I-8 to north of Buckeye sure looks reasonable and needed long term to me, based on where future growth can, and more importantly, can't happen around Phoenix. 

As a bypass it seems to make sense.  I haven't looked at data, but would be willing to bet that Phoenix-San Diego traffic is or will soon be less than the cumulative traffic of:

From Buckeye/Surprise and future west growth to Maricopa/future south, growing Casa Grande industrial base and future support housing, Tucson, Mexico, and east to Texas

Maricopa, Casa Grande, Tucson, Mexico, and Texas to LA and NorCal (and Vegas once extended to 60)

Upgrading 85 to Gila Bend and then using I-8 would add 15 minutes versus the I-11 preferred alternative. Reduces the significant amount of traffic that would bypass Phoenix.  Less relief for the choke points of I-10 from I-8 to 202, and I-10 west of 202.  And of course doesn't serve the future growth south of Estrella, Mobile, Maricopa and south, and most of Casa Grande.

[ztonyg]

I-11 from I-8 to north of Buckeye sure looks reasonable and needed long term to me, based on where future growth can, and more importantly, can't happen around Phoenix. 

As a bypass it seems to make sense.  I haven't looked at data, but would be willing to bet that Phoenix-San Diego traffic is or will soon be less than the cumulative traffic of:

From Buckeye/Surprise and future west growth to Maricopa/future south, growing Casa Grande industrial base and future support housing, Tucson, Mexico, and east to Texas

Maricopa, Casa Grande, Tucson, Mexico, and Texas to LA and NorCal (and Vegas once extended to 60)

Upgrading 85 to Gila Bend and then using I-8 would add 15 minutes versus the I-11 preferred alternative. Reduces the significant amount of traffic that would bypass Phoenix.  Less relief for the choke points of I-10 from I-8 to 202, and I-10 west of 202.  And of course doesn't serve the future growth south of Estrella, Mobile, Maricopa and south, and most of Casa Grande.

I'm not convinced that the explosive growth will continue indefinitely, especially as more and more of the baby boomer generation passes away.

The plans to upgrade 85 have existed for over 30 years. It's very much needed and has been needed for a while. That 15 minutes will still save significant amount of time over traveling through central Phoenix and will adequately serve everyone.

I-11 doesn't need to go south of I-8 ever. I-10 (and maybe I-8) can be widened to Gila Bend and that's it.

[kwellada]

I'm not convinced that the explosive growth will continue indefinitely, especially as more and more of the baby boomer generation passes away.

I tend to agree with this. Given the Colorado River water shortages, nature may put a limit on growth in this coming decade. And as such, I'm of the opinion I-11 should satisfy its goal of connecting LV and PHX and stick to that mandate.

[kernals12]

I'm not convinced that the explosive growth will continue indefinitely, especially as more and more of the baby boomer generation passes away.

I tend to agree with this. Given the Colorado River water shortages, nature may put a limit on growth in this coming decade. And as such, I'm of the opinion I-11 should satisfy its goal of connecting LV and PHX and stick to that mandate.

You have no idea how annoyed I am by this myth. Arizona uses less water now than it did in 1957. As more water guzzling farms make way for urban sprawl, water use goes down.

[DenverBrian]

I'm not convinced that the explosive growth will continue indefinitely, especially as more and more of the baby boomer generation passes away.

I tend to agree with this. Given the Colorado River water shortages, nature may put a limit on growth in this coming decade. And as such, I'm of the opinion I-11 should satisfy its goal of connecting LV and PHX and stick to that mandate.

I think Nevada has at least moderate interest in extending I-11 to Reno.

[kwellada]

You have no idea how annoyed I am by this myth. Arizona uses less water now than it did in 1957. As more water guzzling farms make way for urban sprawl, water use goes down.

I grant you that the cities in Arizona are pretty solid with water conservation techniques. But my point that the changes in the Colorado River allocations and shortages from that source have a good chance of limiting growth in the coming decades. Arizona is the first to lose out on the allocations, after all.

[kernals12]

You have no idea how annoyed I am by this myth. Arizona uses less water now than it did in 1957. As more water guzzling farms make way for urban sprawl, water use goes down.

I grant you that the cities in Arizona are pretty solid with water conservation techniques. But my point that the changes in the Colorado River allocations and shortages from that source have a good chance of limiting growth in the coming decades. Arizona is the first to lose out on the allocations, after all.

Almost every drop of water that Arizona uses, excluding that for agriculture, finds its way back into the Colorado River as treated sewage.