Minnesota Notes

[webny99]

A few things to point out given recent posts:
...
- As TheHighwayMan noted, traffic heading to/from 52 south is primarily going to use 50 or 46...we see that today with the existing traffic patterns.  Thus, webny99's argument about an interchange at 66 to serve this is largely moot.  And no, 3 through Farmington is *NOT* a slog.  The real slog is along and north of 42.

Traffic is largely using MN 50 or Co 46 now... but that's not necessarily going to be the case in 15-20 years when suburban development encroaches on US 52. There will eventually be demand for a third connection and an alternate to MN/Co 50 through Farmington.

Also, I never said MN 3 is a slog. I said Farmington is a slog, which is especially true on an east-west axis due to the nature and configuration of Co 50 and MN 50 requiring a north-south jog on MN 3 or local streets.

[skluth]

That may be an exaggeration (though the Minneapolis Farmers Market is not small by any means), but he is not wrong in pointing out the disadvantaged community (in this case, the Hmong) who own land on one corner of 52/66 that would be impacted by an interchange there.

Having worked with a local organic farmer for years, done graduate research about HAFA, I don't think this group understands how the tentacles of food production affect people, much less  market forces driving the farm-to-table movement/locally sourced movement, and the organic movement.  There are dozens of farmers' markets in the greater Twin Cities that have a significant, if not majority presence of Hmong vendors.  Some of these markets are large such as Minneapolis, Midtown, Mill City, and St. Paul markets with thousands of customers weekly.   Some are local.  In addition is the Hmong Village mall that provides year-round food to the 50,000-60,000 Hmong people in St. Paul.  Local farmers, including HAFA, distribute their produce to restaurants and markets/co-ops across the Twin Cities reaching many more people than the Hmong community or farmers' market patrons.  The Cities have the highest number of co-ops per capita in the country.  Considering that farmers' markets' patronage varies from week to week, and that there are 4,000,000 people in the Twin Cities CMSA, 100,000+ people utilizing food produced by HAFA is not that unrealistic.  Certainly more than 2.5% of the Twin Cities utilizes any of these food sources during the year.

I'd be more persuaded by actual data on who shops at farmers markets than speculation.

Even 1% of a metro population, especially when much of that population is disadvantaged, is significant. The Hmong population is about 1.5% of the metro population. Given the sales, it's reasonable to assume at least 1% of the food in the metro comes from here and probably more than 1% of the fresh food. You're talking about the main food provider for a poorer minority. It's that attitude that allowed freeways to be built mostly through minority neighborhoods in cities while avoiding whiter areas.

As a comparison, Starbucks sells about 8M cups of coffee drinks around the world per day. Even if all that were in the US, it would be less than 1% of the population drinking a cup of Starbucks per day. Just think of the impact of closing all the Starbucks. Yes, customers could get their coffee at Panera or a local coffee joint, but it would be an inconvenience. Now imagine extrapolating that to an experience where all the places you buy groceries are closed. No Cub Foods. No Costco. No Safeway. No WalMart. No Aldi. (Or wherever you buy groceries.) You can still buy your groceries at your local 7/11 and the few small independent grocers that still exist. So it's no problem, right?

The farmers markets and small ethnic grocers not only provide healthy food to Hmong and others who like the food, they provide a source where vendors speak their language and provide hundreds of jobs to the community. This is also the source most good Asian restaurants will get their fresh ingredients. These vendors also serve as community news sources, some provide community space for meetings, and they often provide the only local source of ethnic food ingredients. Jay International, my favorite ethnic grocer during the many years I lived in St Louis, is an excellent example of the multi-purpose nature of these outlets.

[Rothman]

That may be an exaggeration (though the Minneapolis Farmers Market is not small by any means), but he is not wrong in pointing out the disadvantaged community (in this case, the Hmong) who own land on one corner of 52/66 that would be impacted by an interchange there.

Having worked with a local organic farmer for years, done graduate research about HAFA, I don't think this group understands how the tentacles of food production affect people, much less  market forces driving the farm-to-table movement/locally sourced movement, and the organic movement.  There are dozens of farmers' markets in the greater Twin Cities that have a significant, if not majority presence of Hmong vendors.  Some of these markets are large such as Minneapolis, Midtown, Mill City, and St. Paul markets with thousands of customers weekly.   Some are local.  In addition is the Hmong Village mall that provides year-round food to the 50,000-60,000 Hmong people in St. Paul.  Local farmers, including HAFA, distribute their produce to restaurants and markets/co-ops across the Twin Cities reaching many more people than the Hmong community or farmers' market patrons.  The Cities have the highest number of co-ops per capita in the country.  Considering that farmers' markets' patronage varies from week to week, and that there are 4,000,000 people in the Twin Cities CMSA, 100,000+ people utilizing food produced by HAFA is not that unrealistic.  Certainly more than 2.5% of the Twin Cities utilizes any of these food sources during the year.

I'd be more persuaded by actual data on who shops at farmers markets than speculation.

Even 1% of a metro population, especially when much of that population is disadvantaged, is significant. The Hmong population is about 1.5% of the metro population. Given the sales, it's reasonable to assume at least 1% of the food in the metro comes from here and probably more than 1% of the fresh food. You're talking about the main food provider for a poorer minority. It's that attitude that allowed freeways to be built mostly through minority neighborhoods in cities while avoiding whiter areas.

As a comparison, Starbucks sells about 8M cups of coffee drinks around the world per day. Even if all that were in the US, it would be less than 1% of the population drinking a cup of Starbucks per day. Just think of the impact of closing all the Starbucks. Yes, customers could get their coffee at Panera or a local coffee joint, but it would be an inconvenience. Now imagine extrapolating that to an experience where all the places you buy groceries are closed. No Cub Foods. No Costco. No Safeway. No WalMart. No Aldi. (Or wherever you buy groceries.) You can still buy your groceries at your local 7/11 and the few small independent grocers that still exist. So it's no problem, right?

The farmers markets and small ethnic grocers not only provide healthy food to Hmong and others who like the food, they provide a source where vendors speak their language and provide hundreds of jobs to the community. This is also the source most good Asian restaurants will get their fresh ingredients. These vendors also serve as community news sources, some provide community space for meetings, and they often provide the only local source of ethnic food ingredients. Jay International, my favorite ethnic grocer during the many years I lived in St Louis, is an excellent example of the multi-purpose nature of these outlets.

1% of what sales?  Where are you getting that info?

[midwesternroadguy]

Rothman–

Do you live in the Twin Cities?  If so, then you must be familiar with the landmark grocers of Byerly's & Lund's–to whom HAFA provides produce.  This is an indicator of the diverse businesses selling HAFA's produce.
Have you ever been to one of the major farmers' markets here?  You would not question patronage if you have.  Sources indicate 30 to 60 to 185 farmers' markets operate in the Twin Cities with Hmong vendors comprising 50%.

Have you been to the Hmong Village market?  It's huge. 

What is your experience with local food distribution?

I'm not sure what kinds of data will satisfy you Rothman, so here you are.  Start with these sources and prove me wrong.  The problem with our society is that if people have no interest in something, they feel entitled to dismiss its importance to others too. This is a critical food production area for the greater Twin Cities that impacts an awful lot of people, that should not be plowed under for an interchange that can be relocated one mile to the north. 

https://www.hmongfarmers.com/

https://farmersmarketcoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Slocum_CURA_Local-Food-and-Diversity-in-Public-Space_Minneapolis-Farmers-Market.pdf

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2021/11/27/2065925/-How-Hmong-farmers-are-building-collective-power-in-Minnesota

https://m.startribune.com/twin-cities-farmers-markets-will-grow-again-in-2021/600052466/

Froggie–
HAFA operates land on at least two quadrants of that intersection, not one.

[Mdcastle]

This is the only farm Lunds and Byerly's can buy produce from?

The 2011 formation of HAFA was before of after CR 66 was identified as a future interchange location in 2000?

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I can tell this is already going to come down to the usual board battle lines of "fuck them, build the interchange" and "sorry, the farmers are already there, nothing we can do".

Obviously there's a lot of vested interest on the board in *something* happening, because "it could be I-290!!!!"

[midwesternroadguy]

This is the only farm Lunds and Byerly's can buy produce from?

The 2011 formation of HAFA was before of after CR 66 was identified as a future interchange location in 2000?

That's not what I said about Lund's.  HAFA is a supplier of produce to L & B. 

From the communications director of Minnesota Farmers' Market Association:
Farmers' Markets in the Twin Cities were patronized by 4.3 million visitors in 2019, the most recent year that data are available for.  Fifty percent of dealers are Hmong. 

Let's add in other HAFA enterprises:
Produce sold at other supermarkets,
Produce sold at co-ops,
Produce distributed through CSAs. 
Produce sold within the Hmong community of ~60,000. 
Produce sold directly to restaurants

Hmong farmers had been operating at that location prior to formalizing it through HAFA.

[Rothman]

From the communications director of Minnesota Farmers' Market Association:
Farmers' Markets in the Twin Cities were patronized by 4.3 million visitors in 2019, the most recent year that data are available for.  Fifty percent of dealers are Hmong.

This is more like it, although the source has a conflict of interest that would lead to exaggerating the numbers.

[Molandfreak]

This is the only farm Lunds and Byerly's can buy produce from?

The 2011 formation of HAFA was before of after CR 66 was identified as a future interchange location in 2000?

Is there a requirement to inform any future buyer that they may lose some land in a few years? If not, there probably should be. This is particularly distasteful and insensitive.

[KCRoadFan]

For me, this is post number 494, which reminds me of something that I've always wondered every time I visit the Twin Cities: because the 494/694 beltway shares a common set of exit numbers all the way around, why did MNDOT decide to give it two numbers instead of one or the other? What were they thinking?

[TheHighwayMan3561]

For me, this is post number 494, which reminds me of something that I've always wondered every time I visit the Twin Cities: because the 494/694 beltway shares a common set of exit numbers all the way around, why did MNDOT decide to give it two numbers instead of one or the other? What were they thinking?

MDH (as it was known then) thought one number might be confusing.

[froggie]

Different functions.  694 serves as a bypass for 94 through traffic, and is signed as such while approaching it on 94.  494 is more like your typical suburban loop.

[Trademark]

Different functions.  694 serves as a bypass for 94 through traffic, and is signed as such while approaching it on 94.  494 is more like your typical suburban loop.

I feel like 694 should be signed to follow 610 to 10 to current 694 as it's a more effective bypass particularly in traffic. But at this point I know it will never change

[Rothman]

This is the only farm Lunds and Byerly's can buy produce from?

The 2011 formation of HAFA was before of after CR 66 was identified as a future interchange location in 2000?

Is there a requirement to inform any future buyer that they may lose some land in a few years? If not, there probably should be. This is particularly distasteful and insensitive.

What?  Any land owner could be facing selling their land under eminent domain practices.  It comes with just living in the U.S.

[Molandfreak]

This is the only farm Lunds and Byerly's can buy produce from?

The 2011 formation of HAFA was before of after CR 66 was identified as a future interchange location in 2000?

Is there a requirement to inform any future buyer that they may lose some land in a few years? If not, there probably should be. This is particularly distasteful and insensitive.

What?  Any land owner could be facing selling their land under eminent domain practices.  It comes with just living in the U.S.

Well I know that. But certain properties are way more likely to be wanted under imminent domain than others. If this was identified as a future interchange location in 2000, the people involved with HAFA should have been made aware of that.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Different functions.  694 serves as a bypass for 94 through traffic, and is signed as such while approaching it on 94.  494 is more like your typical suburban loop.

I feel like 694 should be signed to follow 610 to 10 to current 694 as it's a more effective bypass particularly in traffic. But at this point I know it will never change

610 in general is poorly advertised as being part of an alternate route to St. Paul/694 relief route between 94 and US 10 coming in from the NW. This is one of those cases where the metro's general avoidance of control city usage (or even anything suggesting 610 is more than just some random road to nowhere) is particularly unhelpful.

[Molandfreak]

Why is MN 68 the one that continues east of Morgan? MN 67 would make more sense.

[skluth]

That may be an exaggeration (though the Minneapolis Farmers Market is not small by any means), but he is not wrong in pointing out the disadvantaged community (in this case, the Hmong) who own land on one corner of 52/66 that would be impacted by an interchange there.

Having worked with a local organic farmer for years, done graduate research about HAFA, I don't think this group understands how the tentacles of food production affect people, much less  market forces driving the farm-to-table movement/locally sourced movement, and the organic movement.  There are dozens of farmers' markets in the greater Twin Cities that have a significant, if not majority presence of Hmong vendors.  Some of these markets are large such as Minneapolis, Midtown, Mill City, and St. Paul markets with thousands of customers weekly.   Some are local.  In addition is the Hmong Village mall that provides year-round food to the 50,000-60,000 Hmong people in St. Paul.  Local farmers, including HAFA, distribute their produce to restaurants and markets/co-ops across the Twin Cities reaching many more people than the Hmong community or farmers' market patrons.  The Cities have the highest number of co-ops per capita in the country.  Considering that farmers' markets' patronage varies from week to week, and that there are 4,000,000 people in the Twin Cities CMSA, 100,000+ people utilizing food produced by HAFA is not that unrealistic.  Certainly more than 2.5% of the Twin Cities utilizes any of these food sources during the year.

I'd be more persuaded by actual data on who shops at farmers markets than speculation.

Even 1% of a metro population, especially when much of that population is disadvantaged, is significant. The Hmong population is about 1.5% of the metro population. Given the sales, it's reasonable to assume at least 1% of the food in the metro comes from here and probably more than 1% of the fresh food. You're talking about the main food provider for a poorer minority. It's that attitude that allowed freeways to be built mostly through minority neighborhoods in cities while avoiding whiter areas.

As a comparison, Starbucks sells about 8M cups of coffee drinks around the world per day. Even if all that were in the US, it would be less than 1% of the population drinking a cup of Starbucks per day. Just think of the impact of closing all the Starbucks. Yes, customers could get their coffee at Panera or a local coffee joint, but it would be an inconvenience. Now imagine extrapolating that to an experience where all the places you buy groceries are closed. No Cub Foods. No Costco. No Safeway. No WalMart. No Aldi. (Or wherever you buy groceries.) You can still buy your groceries at your local 7/11 and the few small independent grocers that still exist. So it's no problem, right?

The farmers markets and small ethnic grocers not only provide healthy food to Hmong and others who like the food, they provide a source where vendors speak their language and provide hundreds of jobs to the community. This is also the source most good Asian restaurants will get their fresh ingredients. These vendors also serve as community news sources, some provide community space for meetings, and they often provide the only local source of ethnic food ingredients. Jay International, my favorite ethnic grocer during the many years I lived in St Louis, is an excellent example of the multi-purpose nature of these outlets.

1% of what sales?  Where are you getting that info?

50,000-60,000 Hmong of the 4M MSP metro population, assuming most but not all the Hmong heavily use HAFA as their primary food source. (50K/4M=1.25%) This may be an overestimate but would be countered by non-Hmong customers.

[Mdcastle]

Maybe you know something I don't, but do the Hmong only buy Hmong tomatoes, as opposed to buying ordinary tomatoes at Cub Foods like everyone else? If we built the interchange at CR 66 would are we suggesting all the Hmong would starve to death, or could the maybe buy tomatoes at Cub Foods, or grow Hmong tomatoes, if there's really something special about them, at a different farm. It doesn't matter to me where the interchange goes, but the allegations about how critical a part of a single farm among countless thousands in Minnesota alone, to the Twin Cities' food supply strikes me as silly.

As far as knowing that was a future interchange location, it's only been posted on the web since the study was completed around 2000. I guess I'd check into that possibility if I was thinking about buying land by a major highway where they're obviously building interchanges all over the place.

[froggie]

This came as a minor surprise.  MnDOT has a project tentatively scheduled for 2025-26 to fill the 4-lane gap in Wadena.  Existing US 10 would be widened, and the recently completed reconstruction through Wadena proper would be restriped for 4 lanes (such was designed into the reconstruction).

[Molandfreak]

This came as a minor surprise.  MnDOT has a project tentatively scheduled for 2025-26 to fill the 4-lane gap in Wadena.  Existing US 10 would be widened, and the recently completed reconstruction through Wadena proper would be restriped for 4 lanes (such was designed into the reconstruction).

Weren't there plans for a bypass until very recently? It seems a bit odd that they would do this considering they atrociously just took out the four-lane segment of highway 61 in Lake City.

[andarcondadont]

Weren't there plans for a bypass until very recently? It seems a bit odd that they would do this considering they atrociously just took out the four-lane segment of highway 61 in Lake City.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is atrocious about the 3 lane segment of Hwy 61 in Lake City?

[Molandfreak]

Weren't there plans for a bypass until very recently? It seems a bit odd that they would do this considering they atrociously just took out the four-lane segment of highway 61 in Lake City.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is atrocious about the 3 lane segment of Hwy 61 in Lake City?

That used to be the only area where you could reliably and safely pass slowpokes travelling from Red Wing to Wabasha. The atrocious part of it is that they didn't bother to think of this and build at least one segment with a passing lane elsewhere.

Of course, I'd prefer a full expressway all the way from St. Paul to La Crescent (and urban four-lanes where needed), but there's no chance of that happening now.

[texaskdog]

If you're talking about re-routing Co 66 north along Donnelly Ave to meet Co 62, that wouldn't leave enough space for a diamond interchange at Co 62. On a regional level, that would also do nothing to address the primary traffic movement in the area, which is from Lakeville/Farmington to US 52 south. That traffic isn't going to backtrack 1 mile just to access US 52 at an interchange; they'll just continue to use Co 66 even if there's no interchange.

If MN/DOT and Dakota County aren't going to half-ass the project, the other intersection should be replaced with an overpass or closed anyway. And there are already plans to finish 190th from highway 3 to the Biscayne Avenue intersection as an extension of county 60. I bet they would look into finishing 190th all the way if an interchange was built there, since a bonus would be that the traffic would have access to highway 3 via a roundabout and not the busy 66/3 intersection.

It would be pretty cool to see county 62 absorbed into the planned county 60 projects, too. It'd create another (almost) cross-county highway.

A very MN thing to take a road that needs a freeway and build an expressway

[froggie]

This came as a minor surprise.  MnDOT has a project tentatively scheduled for 2025-26 to fill the 4-lane gap in Wadena.  Existing US 10 would be widened, and the recently completed reconstruction through Wadena proper would be restriped for 4 lanes (such was designed into the reconstruction).

Weren't there plans for a bypass until very recently? It seems a bit odd that they would do this considering they atrociously just took out the four-lane segment of highway 61 in Lake City.

A bypass was studied at least twice, but eventually dropped about 10-15 years ago in favor of upgrading the existing alignment.  Later on, MnDOT decided that they couldn't afford even that, though they did manage to accommodate 4 lanes through Wadena with the recent urban rebuild.  This is why it was a surprise to me that they have an active project, because last I heard they didn't have the long-term funding to fill the gap.

Big difference between here and 61 in Lake City, though.  That 4-to-3 in Lake City is because they had a lot of left turning traffic that was causing problems, and a more constricted right-of-way (especially in downtown Lake City) than on 10 through Wadena.  Lake City also doesn't have 4-lane sections approaching the edge of town like Wadena does.

Agree that they could have built passing lanes on 61.  ROW's constricted along the river bluffs south of Lake City, but they could have built a set of passing lanes somewhere near Frontenac.

Also, regarding Moland's comments from the 3rd (that texaskdog just responded to), MnDOT's building a roundabout at MN 3/Dakota 66 next year.