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DFW: US 380 freeway in Collin and Denton counties

Started by MaxConcrete, April 26, 2018, 10:38:06 PM

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DNAguy



MaxConcrete

The EA for the westernmost section is posted
https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/US380ProsperFriscoWidening

Highlights

  • Section is 5.9 miles, from 2.3 miles west of the Dallas North Tollway to 3.6 miles east of DNT
  • Estimated cost is $842 million, which is $143 million per mile
  • Freeway is mostly 3x3, except at the DNT where there are additional lanes. There is a continous 32-foot-wide median to add two lanes in the future.
  • 5-level interchange at DNT
  • Right-of-way width is mostly between 350 and 360 feet, with a much wider section over 500 feet wide adjacent to the DNT on both sides of DNT. The ROW width is narrow (around 370 feet) at Preston road for no apparent reason - there is plenty of vacant land. Of course I would rather see a minimum 400 foot wide corridor, but due to the lack of planning to preserve the corridor some compromises needed to be made.
  • There is a three-level interchange at Preston, with US 380 on the top level.
  • For all of the corridor except the far east end, all ROW acquisition (152 acres) is on the south side due to a City of Irving easement on the north side of US 380 for most of this section, all except the far east end. The easement is around 100 feet wide and has a 6-foot water main.
  • Frontage roads have high-capacity designs at intersections.
  • Overall the schematic looks good.

www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

Bobby5280

It's easy to understand why they can't extend the US-380 freeway any farther West than Teel Parkway / Championship Drive. US-380 has become pretty covered up with retail development (and landscaping) just West of that intersection. Of course the entire surrounding area in that location has been blockaded by residential development. Any hopes for extending a US-380 freeway farther West closer to Denton would pretty much have to be built as an elevated structure above the existing highway.

thisdj78

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 07, 2023, 02:35:00 PM
It's easy to understand why they can't extend the US-380 freeway any farther West than Teel Parkway / Championship Drive. US-380 has become pretty covered up with retail development (and landscaping) just West of that intersection. Of course the entire surrounding area in that location has been blockaded by residential development. Any hopes for extending a US-380 freeway farther West closer to Denton would pretty much have to be built as an elevated structure above the existing highway.

The landscaping and sidewalks look like they're on the US-380 ROW, so I imagine that is an easier barrier to overcome. The retail locations look like they sit back far enough that they would just need to sacrifice some of the outer parking lot that lines the ROW. It would be tight but possible.

MaxConcrete

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 07, 2023, 02:35:00 PM
It's easy to understand why they can't extend the US-380 freeway any farther West than Teel Parkway / Championship Drive. US-380 has become pretty covered up with retail development (and landscaping) just West of that intersection. Of course the entire surrounding area in that location has been blockaded by residential development. Any hopes for extending a US-380 freeway farther West closer to Denton would pretty much have to be built as an elevated structure above the existing highway.
The study for US 380 in Denton County (from west of DNT to Denton) revealed its recommendation in November 2021. A new freeway on the existing alignment is the selected option, which was the best possible outcome of the study.

https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/US380DentonPM3

The presentation at the link above says the corridor will be 350 to 400 feet wide. You can view the schematics and see how the corridor is threaded between existing development and also displaces numerous strip malls, gas stations and fast food restaurants.

However, this freeway won't happen anytime soon. It is not in the NCTCOG 2045 plan. The proposed Denton County Outer Parkway, which is farther north and connects into the Collin County Outer Loop (which already has some frontage roads), is slated to be built in the 2030s. Of course, priorities can change. I'm thinking US 380 in Denton County may get built sooner if funding is available, or it could be tolled.
www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

Wayward Memphian

#205
McKinney is about to put a bond proposal to build a commercial passenger terminal up for a vote this May.
This is coming on the heels of the Universal Kiddie amusement park and hotel announcement. These openings would likely coincide with each other. That puts 380  near US 75 in the crosshair for some immediate attention.

Bobby5280

#206
Quote from: MaxConcreteHowever, this freeway won't happen anytime soon. It is not in the NCTCOG 2045 plan. The proposed Denton County Outer Parkway, which is farther north and connects into the Collin County Outer Loop (which already has some frontage roads), is slated to be built in the 2030s. Of course, priorities can change. I'm thinking US 380 in Denton County may get built sooner if funding is available, or it could be tolled.

Of course I've repeated this mantra many times before: the more years they put off building the freeway the more difficult and costly the project will end up being. I'm sure officials at TX DOT are well aware of this truth. Officials in Denton and Collin County governments are likely aware of it as well.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that area of the DFW metroplex is still growing rapidly. Their US-380 study from Loop 288 in Denton to the US-380 intersection with Legacy Drive is going to have a fairly short shelf life of accuracy.

When looking at the five roll plots showing the proposed freeway's path, it does show a significant number of existing (and somewhat new) commercial properties will have to be bought and cleared out of the wider ROW. It's very doubtful Denton County Commissioners are imposing any restrictions on any new development projects that want to hug right up on the existing US-380 ROW. When looking at Google Earth time line imagery the 6/2022 image shows a shit ton of new development going in immediately West of the Tell Parkway/Championship Drive intersection. It's all getting built up next to the current ROW and utility easement. It's all but certain far more properties will be built next to US-380 between now and the 2040's. Hell, there could be tall office buildings lining parts of the road for all we know. Local elected leaders don't care so much about a highway that could potentially be built 20 years from now. They care more about making property deals now and are more than willing to make short-sighted concessions to close those deals.

The Collin County Outer Loop will not be able to function as a replacement for a US-380 freeway. That would be as if someone expected the Bush Turnpike (TX-190) to replace the Sam Rayburn Tollway (TX-121). The portion of the proposed Collin County Outer Loop going North of McKinney is around 7 miles North of US-380.

The East End of the proposed US-380 freeway segment halfway between Denton and McKinney ends at Lakewood Drive. Even if/when a US-380 bypass is built North around McKinney I could see them still being forced to upgrade the remaining "University Drive" farther East. The freeway could be extended farther East across the intersections with Custer Road, Stonebridge Drive and Ridge Road. It could go even far across Lake Forest Drive and Hardin Blvd. It's mostly commercial properties lining the road through there. Even Raytheon's property on the South side of US-380/University Dr has a pretty good bit of open space. They could almost, but not quite make a US-380 freeway reach US-75.

rtXC1

TxDOT recently released a fly-through video. Doesn't look too bad, even if I despise any form of a loop for 380.

https://youtu.be/uRYj_BgIHIo

motorola870

Is TXDOT going to sign 380 business through McKinney or is University just going to be a city street?

thisdj78

Quote from: motorola870 on February 26, 2023, 01:14:22 AM
Is TXDOT going to sign 380 business through McKinney or is University just going to be a city street?

If the flyover video is any indication, it will just be University Blvd, a city street.

rte66man

When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Stephane Dumas

Quote from: rte66man on February 27, 2023, 10:53:54 AM
Nice US5 shield at 2:50 in the video.........

Looks like we could imagine some jokes about US-5 being extended from New England to Texas now, lol. ;)

Chris

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 09, 2023, 12:17:12 PM
Nevertheless, the fact remains that area of the DFW metroplex is still growing rapidly.

Here's 20 years of northward growth. Imagine what it would look like in 2040.

And what traffic would be like on US 380 by that time. Probably similar to the Sam Rayburn Tollway, which needed to be expanded within a decade of completion.



In the early 2000s there was practically no development along US 380, even in McKinney it was pretty minimal west of US 75. Though I think they would've needed to bypass McKinney on a new alignment even if they did preserve a right of way west of US 75.

Given that both Frisco and McKinney now have a population of 200,000 each, and with Celina apparently having a build-out scenario of 380,000 people, a continuous freeway to I-30 could be warranted.

TxDOT has also released a design for US 380 at Farmersville.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU8m2umhA98


Road Hog

#213
That map is mesmerizing.

Lots has changed since 2000 for sure. US 380, SH 121 and SH 289 were still mostly 2-lane then, Stonebriar Mall was being built in the middle of stinking nowhere and the DNT stopped at SH 121. McKinney, Frisco and Prosper all still had one high school.

I think the growth caught TxDOT napping and they've been playing catch-up ever since.

(That rectangle that doesn't change in the middle is the Brinkmann Ranch in Frisco. It used to be the Box Ranch and they filmed some early episodes of Dallas there. The mansion burned down mysteriously in 1987.)

Road Hog

There is still a little bit of Frisco to build out, but the Universal project will take care of that. Prosper is kind of landlocked and will fill out quickly. Everything else north of 380 is fair game right now once interest rates drop a little.

rte66man

Putting this here. Mods, please move if appropriate:

Notice of Final Federal Agency Actions Spur 399 Extension Project in Texas
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2023-05-09/pdf/2023-09760.pdf

Quote
The Spur 399 Extension Project will construct an eight-lane freeway with frontage roads
connecting US 75 with US 380. The project will add one travel lane in each direction and an exit ramp within the
existing SH 5 corridor extending from the US 75/SH 5/SRT—SH 121 junction to approximately 1,500 feet south of the
intersection of FM 546/Harry McKillop Boulevard and SH 5. The project will then extend Spur 399 east on new
location crossing Airport Drive/Old Mill Road and continuing further east and south around the southern end of the
Airport, then turning north near CR 317 to connect to US 380 east of the Airport.
The project is approximately 6.25 miles in length.

When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

kernals12

In 1980, the 3 freeways connecting Dallas and Fort Worth, I-20, I-30, and SH 183, were completed and Dallas and Tarrant Counties had a combined total of 2.4 million people.

Today, Collin and Denton Counties have a combined total of 2.1 million people and a lot more to come in the decades ahead. 2 freeways is definitely warranted.

East-west freeway corridors will also help create more balanced growth, bringing in more industrial and commercial development, and reducing the need to commute to Dallas or Fort Worth.

The Road Warrior

I don't think 380 will ever become a full freeway, at least not like the one that TXDOT showed in their early models. There's too much development along the existing road, and building a traditional freeway like Texas likes to build them would destroy almost all of it. The time to prepare for such a thing was decades ago. Now, most communities would probably oppose it because of the high levels of construction.

MaxConcrete

#218
Quote from: The Road Warrior on June 14, 2023, 04:52:14 PM
I don't think 380 will ever become a full freeway, at least not like the one that TXDOT showed in their early models. There's too much development along the existing road, and building a traditional freeway like Texas likes to build them would destroy almost all of it. The time to prepare for such a thing was decades ago. Now, most communities would probably oppose it because of the high levels of construction.

View the schematics on this page, which show the planned right-of-way.
https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/US380DentonPM3

Nearly all the displacements are commercial properties like strip centers, fast food restaurants and fuel stations. Residential displacements are minimal - it appears to be less than 10 properties. Between Paloma Creek Blvd and FM 1385, the alignment swerves around the existing right-of-way to minimize displacements and avoid the high school.

Communities generally don't mind displacement of lower-tier commercial properties. I think there is a very high probability this will be built, > 90%. It will take a while, however, probably starting no sooner than the mid 2030s. US 380 in Collin County is proceeding first. The Denton County Outer Loop is currently slated to be built before US 380 in Denton County.
www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

MaxConcrete

Public meeting materials for Loop 288 in Denton and its connection into US 380 are available
https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/projects/state-highways/SL288East

Observations

  • 3x3 main lanes and 2x2 frontage roads
  • The project includes about 2.3 miles of US 380 on the east end of the project. On the west end, the project does not reach I-35, it ends about 0.5 miles east of I-35.
  • There is a new alignment at the east end at the connection to US 380. The original, feasibility study alignment lacked frontage roads. The new alignment is further north and includes continuous frontage roads. The new alignment is much better, but has more displacements.
  • Most of the alignment has a wide right-of-way, 350 to 400 feet, with an interior median wide enough for two additional lanes. However, there is a short, very narrow section west of Stuart Road, so narrow that the 10 total lanes barely fit. This is the result of a high-voltage right-of-way on the north side and a neighborhood on the south side.
  • 190 acres of new right-of-way required.
  • Estimated cost is $922 million. Earliest construction start is 2028.

www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

Bobby5280

It will be interesting to see how this project dove-tails into the other efforts to expand US-380 Eastward to the Dallas North Tollway and farther toward McKinney. Hopefully all of those various projects will be in some stage of construction by 2030.

MaxConcrete

The draft UTP, slated to be approved by the TxDOT commission next week, has retracted $490 million from US 380 and Spur 399 that was included in an earlier draft. The Dallas Morning News reported on this
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2023/08/11/us-380-spur-399-funding-hey-txdot-wheres-our-490-million/

This was the subject of a long discussion at last week's NCTCOG RTC meeting. See agenda item 5
https://nctcog.new.swagit.com/videos/268937

However, the TxDOT Dallas director assured officials that pre-construction work including right-of-way acquisition and engineering is continuing at full speed.

These projects appear to be caught in an arcane administrative issue relating to categories of funding. In short, these projects were funded by category 12 funds, and TxDOT has exceeded the legal limit for category 12 obligations, so TxDOT had to make cuts.

QuoteU.S. 380, Spur 399 funding: Hey TxDOT, where's our $490 million?
Collin County Commissioners want assurance there will be no construction delays based on money

That's why alarm bells went off when commissioners learned TxDOT removed $490 million in funding for U.S. 380 and Spur 399 right-of-way projects.

Clarence Daugherty, director of engineering for the county, said the funds were included in the May draft of the 2024 Unified Transportation Program, TxDOT's 10-year plan to guide transportation development across the state. But, when the proposed final draft came out, the amount was reduced by $129 million and $361 million for U.S. 380 and Spur 399, respectively.

"The 2024 UTP proposes to reduce funding from two projects on new rights-of-way in Collin County, which totals $490 million,"  according to the letter. "We urge the Texas Transportation Commission and TxDOT keep full funding on U.S. 380 and Spur 399 in Collin County."

www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

The Road Warrior

Quote from: MaxConcrete on June 14, 2023, 08:52:12 PM
Quote from: The Road Warrior on June 14, 2023, 04:52:14 PM
I don't think 380 will ever become a full freeway, at least not like the one that TXDOT showed in their early models. There's too much development along the existing road, and building a traditional freeway like Texas likes to build them would destroy almost all of it. The time to prepare for such a thing was decades ago. Now, most communities would probably oppose it because of the high levels of construction.

View the schematics on this page, which show the planned right-of-way.
https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/US380DentonPM3

Nearly all the displacements are commercial properties like strip centers, fast food restaurants and fuel stations. Residential displacements are minimal - it appears to be less than 10 properties. Between Paloma Creek Blvd and FM 1385, the alignment swerves around the existing right-of-way to minimize displacements and avoid the high school.

Communities generally don't mind displacement of lower-tier commercial properties. I think there is a very high probability this will be built, > 90%. It will take a while, however, probably starting no sooner than the mid 2030s. US 380 in Collin County is proceeding first. The Denton County Outer Loop is currently slated to be built before US 380 in Denton County.

That's the thing though. That's nearly all of the commercial properties on 380. And they are the only commercial properties within miles of many of these neighborhoods due to sprawling development. And for some of these small towns (looking at you Crossroads) this is literally all of the commerce in the entire town.

Bobby5280

The US-380 freeway upgrade from Loop 288 to the DNT isn't going to erase all the existing commercial properties along the way. The proposed freeway alignment expands mostly to the South of the current US-380 ROW. That leaves the commercial properties on the North side of the road intact. Some parking lots and driveways may be altered though.

The proposed freeway alignment does swing Northward to avoid the Ray Braswell High School complex. But what is that going to erase? Mostly chain restaurant buildings, such as a Starbucks, Slim Chickens and Qdoba location.

This highway upgrade isn't going to take out a Walmart Supercenter (or any of the satellite stores in front of it). The restaurants on the South side of the road will have to be rebuilt. At least for the time being it looks like there is room for them to rebuild a couple hundred feet farther South. Considering the population and traffic growth that is going to happen, I would imagine the executives of these chain stores would welcome it. The end result will mean for traffic for their businesses. More money.

There have been far more disruptive freeway expansion projects than this. The Katy Freeway project on the West side of Houston was one for the record books. I'm also not going to shed a tear for a carbon copy chain restaurant store getting demolished. It's not like a family getting forced out of their home and having to find someplace new to live. These retail and restaurant chains are often demolishing and re-building their stores anyway. Their branding and store layouts change. Competition is incredibly fierce these days. It's bad for business for a chain restaurant location to look "old."

BJ59

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 09, 2023, 12:44:11 PM
The proposed freeway alignment does swing Northward to avoid the Ray Braswell High School complex. But what is that going to erase? Mostly chain restaurant buildings, such as a Starbucks, Slim Chickens and Qdoba location.

This highway upgrade isn't going to take out a Walmart Supercenter (or any of the satellite stores in front of it). The restaurants on the South side of the road will have to be rebuilt. At least for the time being it looks like there is room for them to rebuild a couple hundred feet farther South. Considering the population and traffic growth that is going to happen, I would imagine the executives of these chain stores would welcome it. The end result will mean for traffic for their businesses. More money.

I would think that businesses would be opposed to a freeway. All of the traffic jams occurring on adjacent roads to their businesses are probably beneficial as many people will get frustrated and tired and will stop at the fast-food chain to help hold them over until they're through the traffic.

If a freeway was built, people would have less of an incentive to have to go through all the work of exiting to get to the store. If they're already cruising at 70+ miles an hour, they don't have much of a reason to stop. I would imagine business owners showing strong opposition to expanding US-380 into a freeway for these reasons and the fact that some businesses will lose property to the ROW.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 09, 2023, 12:44:11 PM
There have been far more disruptive freeway expansion projects than this. The Katy Freeway project on the West side of Houston was one for the record books. I'm also not going to shed a tear for a carbon copy chain restaurant store getting demolished. It's not like a family getting forced out of their home and having to find someplace new to live. These retail and restaurant chains are often demolishing and re-building their stores anyway. Their branding and store layouts change. Competition is incredibly fierce these days. It's bad for business for a chain restaurant location to look "old."

Store locations looking old is a good argument, but in the case of US-380 almost all the businesses have sprung up within the last decade, so everything that is there is already nice and new.



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