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DST (2018)

Started by 02 Park Ave, February 08, 2018, 07:03:10 PM

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webny99

Quote from: kkt on February 14, 2018, 01:56:31 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 13, 2018, 07:51:00 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 13, 2018, 07:43:14 PM
I work 8:30-5:30, M-F.

Pretty standard. But going back to my earlier question, how often is it dark on your commute?

Well, like I posted above, how dark it is depends on both sunrise and sunset times and how heavy the cloud cover is.  But it's dark for the morning commute roughly late November to mid-January, and dark for the evening commute from the end of DST in early November until mid-February.

What about October and March, near the bounds of DST? Several weeks during those time frames when mornings are pretty dark.


Pete from Boston

7:30 to 3:30, and these are both very busy hours on local roads.  Not as busy as 8:30 (9 is actually post-peak) or 5, but no joke.  3-3:30 is in the thick of school traffic, too.

Alex

The Florida legislature is pushing forward with a bill to move the entire state to DST all year long:

Florida House approves push for Daylight Saving Time

QuoteThe Florida House on Wednesday overwhelmingly approved a proposal aimed at observing daylight-saving time year-round in the state. House members voted 103-11 to support the measure (HB 1013), filed by Rep. Jeanette Nunez, R-Miami, and Rep. Heather Fitzenhagen, R-Fort Myers.

Fitzenhagen said moving to daylight-saving time could help the tourism industry, as people would be able to stay out later in the sunlight. A similar bill (SB 858) also is moving through the Senate.

If approved by the Legislature, the proposal to shift to year-round daylight-saving time would depend on congressional approval. Daylight-saving time will start March 11 this year and end Nov. 4.

KEVIN_224

So let's get this straight: A state which has no area roughly east of maybe Pittsburgh, would be an hour ahead from November to March? Got it. Makes no sense at all!

What about the Central time part of the state, "under" and east of southern Alabama?

formulanone

#79
Quote from: Alex on February 18, 2018, 08:54:01 AM
The Florida legislature is pushing forward with a bill to move the entire state to DST all year long:

Florida House approves push for Daylight Saving Time

QuoteThe Florida House on Wednesday overwhelmingly approved a proposal aimed at observing daylight-saving time year-round in the state. House members voted 103-11 to support the measure (HB 1013), filed by Rep. Jeanette Nunez, R-Miami, and Rep. Heather Fitzenhagen, R-Fort Myers.

Fitzenhagen said moving to daylight-saving time could help the tourism industry, as people would be able to stay out later in the sunlight. A similar bill (SB 858) also is moving through the Senate.

If approved by the Legislature, the proposal to shift to year-round daylight-saving time would depend on congressional approval. Daylight-saving time will start March 11 this year and end Nov. 4.
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on February 18, 2018, 10:41:44 AM
So let's get this straight: A state which has no area roughly east of maybe Pittsburgh, would be an hour ahead from November to March? Got it. Makes no sense at all!

Tourism: A powerful lobby in the Sunshine State.

It's nicer to have that extra hour after work when you might not need it in the morning...but in the grand scheme of things, Florida has almost no reason at all for any time changes; rarely affected by snow or ice for morning commutes, their earliest sunsets are 5:45pm-6:00pm in winter, combined with 8:30pm-9:00pm sundowns in the summer. Not a huge swing, I suppose this just even it out a little.

Curious to see how amicable lawmakers in the Panhandle will be towards the idea? The areas directly north of Florida's northern border aren't heavily populated (there's not a lot of "twin cities" around that part of the state). Pensacola-Mobile might be the only one, and even that's a 45-minute distance apart.

kalvado

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on February 18, 2018, 10:41:44 AM
So let's get this straight: A state which has no area roughly east of maybe Pittsburgh, would be an hour ahead from November to March? Got it. Makes no sense at all!

What about the Central time part of the state, "under" and east of southern Alabama?
Being south means longer day in winter (but shorter in summer). Latest sunrise in Miami in current time zone is 7.12 with pretty long 10.33 day... Unlike more northern areas, FL does have some wiggle room in terms of timing things.

english si

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on February 18, 2018, 10:41:44 AMSo let's get this straight: A state which has no area roughly east of maybe Pittsburgh, would be an hour ahead from November to March? Got it. Makes no sense at all!
Though they are so far south that the loss of light in morning and evening due to winter is not so strong that it matters much that mornings are getting darker.

Florida has just about enough light in winter to be able to lose it from the morning without making mornings too dark - especially where the population is towards the south/west of the state, and enough in the afternoon that adding an hour of evening light (stolen from the morning) would give enough after work to be able to do something with it.
Quote from: kalvado on February 18, 2018, 11:36:28 AMLatest sunrise in Miami in current time zone is 7.12
Actually it's 0730 - on the last day of DST.

kalvado

Quote from: english si on February 18, 2018, 11:49:49 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 18, 2018, 11:36:28 AMLatest sunrise in Miami in current time zone is 7.12
Actually it's 0730 - on the last day of DST.
good catch!
but still proves that moving clock makes only that much sense for the area.

webny99

While I am an advocate of DST, I've decided that I do wish it was for a shorter time frame.

We'll be getting an extra hour of light in the evening next week, which is great, but the transition is too rushed. I want time to appreciate 6 pm sunsets before we rush ahead and make them 7 pm. Besides, the darker mornings are going to be pretty rugged for a few weeks.

CNGL-Leudimin

#84
Better do the European way. Currently I have set my forum preferences to Central Europe with American DST (as I don't bother to change the offset only to revert a couple weeks later) while I quote times here in "where Big Rig Steve is now" (until December 31 last year I used Eastern) with Euro DST. As a result, the range of the latter will change from Eastern-Central-Mountain-Pacific to Central-Mountain-Pacific-Alaska for two weeks. As always, I consider Arizona (except the Navajo nation) to switch from Mountain to Pacific once DST starts, and in my system it won't revert from Pacific to Mountain once Europe advances that hour, but stay in Pacific.
Supporter of the construction of several running gags, including I-366 with a speed limit of 85 mph (137 km/h) and the Hypotenuse.

Please note that I may mention "invalid" FM channels, i.e. ending in an even number or down to 87.5. These are valid in Europe.

MNHighwayMan

#85
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)–one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.

kalvado

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)–one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

MNHighwayMan

Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)–one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.

kkt

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)–one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.

Actually people are much happier when their waking and sleeping times align to the solar clock, and small inexperienced people are quite a bit safer walking to school when it's light out.  I feel your comments are a strawman, because it's so easy to disprove them with a sunrise/sunset chart.

kalvado

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 05:52:40 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)–one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

formulanone

Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 05:52:40 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)–one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

School bus and parental pick-up schedules, that's why.

Rothman

Quote from: kkt on March 06, 2018, 07:03:14 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)–one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.

Actually people are much happier when their waking and sleeping times align to the solar clock, and small inexperienced people are quite a bit safer walking to school when it's light out.  I feel your comments are a strawman, because it's so easy to disprove them with a sunrise/sunset chart.
Saying DST aligns you with the solar clock doesn't hold water.  It might elsewhere, but here, we have sunny mornings and then when DST kicks in, it is back to dark.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

bulldog1979

DST interferes with one portion of business at work. Our restaurant POS is set to run its daily closure routines at 2:45 a.m. every night. On the night that the time changes in the spring, the clock jumps from 1:59:59 directly to 3:00:00, and the server doesn't close that Saturday's business because 2:45 doesn't happen. Last year, I figured out the correct order to manually run the processes. This year, we're changing the time to 3:15 temporarily.

jp the roadgeek

If anything, FL should remain on EST year round, not EDT, which is the equivalent of AST.  Miami is as far west as Pittsburgh, and Jacksonville as far west as Cleveland, and yet they would be an hour ahead of Boston, which is about 8 degrees of longitude east of Miami, in the winter.  If the time zone lines were to be redrawn and standard time observed year round, I would redraw them like this:

ET (UTC-4): Anything north and east of a line that would start in northern Quebec, pass west of Ottawa and Kingston, cut between Syracuse and Rochester, then pass west of Williamsport and between I-81 and I-99, passing just west of Hagerstown, clipping the WV panhandle counties that are part of the DC exurbs, then bending east just south of the I-81/I-64 junction, passing diagonally southeast down to the NC border just west of I-95, then following the NC/VA border to the coast.

CT (UTC-5):  Basically anything not mentioned above that is east of the Mississippi, with the western line bending west around the major metropolitan areas along the river (Twin Cities, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans).

MT (UTC-6): Anything between the Mississippi and the Continental Divide, with some adjustments for metro areas

PT (UTC-7): Anything west of the Continental Divide to the Pacific. 
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

kalvado

Quote from: formulanone on March 06, 2018, 07:22:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 05:52:40 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)–one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

School bus and parental pick-up schedules, that's why.
Yep, and damn those spoiled brats - they deserve 5 AM alarm clock! But god forbids poor babies walk 50 feet in the dark...
It is really one way or the other, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.

hotdogPi

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 06, 2018, 07:58:31 PM
If anything, FL should remain on EST year round, not EDT, which is the equivalent of AST.  Miami is as far west as Pittsburgh, and Jacksonville as far west as Cleveland, and yet they would be an hour ahead of Boston, which is about 8 degrees of longitude east of Miami, in the winter.  If the time zone lines were to be redrawn and standard time observed year round, I would redraw them like this:

ET (UTC-4): Anything north and east of a line that would start in northern Quebec, pass west of Ottawa and Kingston, cut between Syracuse and Rochester, then pass west of Williamsport and between I-81 and I-99, passing just west of Hagerstown, clipping the WV panhandle counties that are part of the DC exurbs, then bending east just south of the I-81/I-64 junction, passing diagonally southeast down to the NC border just west of I-95, then following the NC/VA border to the coast.

CT (UTC-5):  Basically anything not mentioned above that is east of the Mississippi, with the western line bending west around the major metropolitan areas along the river (Twin Cities, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans).

MT (UTC-6): Anything between the Mississippi and the Continental Divide, with some adjustments for metro areas

PT (UTC-7): Anything west of the Continental Divide to the Pacific.

If standard time was year round, it would be -5, -6, -7, and -8. Your numbers (-4, -5, -6, and -7) are for daylight savings time.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

jp the roadgeek

Quote from: 1 on March 06, 2018, 08:01:57 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 06, 2018, 07:58:31 PM
If anything, FL should remain on EST year round, not EDT, which is the equivalent of AST.  Miami is as far west as Pittsburgh, and Jacksonville as far west as Cleveland, and yet they would be an hour ahead of Boston, which is about 8 degrees of longitude east of Miami, in the winter.  If the time zone lines were to be redrawn and standard time observed year round, I would redraw them like this:

ET (UTC-4): Anything north and east of a line that would start in northern Quebec, pass west of Ottawa and Kingston, cut between Syracuse and Rochester, then pass west of Williamsport and between I-81 and I-99, passing just west of Hagerstown, clipping the WV panhandle counties that are part of the DC exurbs, then bending east just south of the I-81/I-64 junction, passing diagonally southeast down to the NC border just west of I-95, then following the NC/VA border to the coast.

CT (UTC-5):  Basically anything not mentioned above that is east of the Mississippi, with the western line bending west around the major metropolitan areas along the river (Twin Cities, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans).

MT (UTC-6): Anything between the Mississippi and the Continental Divide, with some adjustments for metro areas

PT (UTC-7): Anything west of the Continental Divide to the Pacific.

If standard time was year round, it would be -5, -6, -7, and -8. Your numbers (-4, -5, -6, and -7) are for daylight savings time.

I renamed the time zones.  ET is AST equivalent, CT is EST equivalent, MT is CST equivalent, and PT is MST equivalent.  There is NO way I would keep the northeast on EST year round; a 4:15 AM sunrise in my area on 6/21 is ridiculous, while a 5:20 sunset in December is certainly more desireable.
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

formulanone

#97
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 08:01:35 PM
Quote from: formulanone on March 06, 2018, 07:22:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 05:52:40 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

School bus and parental pick-up schedules, that's why.
Yep, and damn those spoiled brats - they deserve 5 AM alarm clock! But god forbids poor babies walk 50 feet in the dark...
It is really one way or the other, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.

Do you actually have any children, or are you just looking for attention?

You're the only one dragging out the "think of the children" chestnut, and I really don't care one way or another about time changes.

webny99

Quote from: kkt on March 06, 2018, 07:03:14 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)–one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
Actually people are much happier when their waking and sleeping times align to the solar clock, and small inexperienced people are quite a bit safer walking to school when it's light out.  I feel your comments are a strawman, because it's so easy to disprove them with a sunrise/sunset chart.

Between the two of you, a more general problem has been identified: Whatever a sunrise/sunset chart proves in Boston, it will prove something completely different in Indianapolis.

Year-round DST would really only affect the western half of all the time zones, as it would be dark well past school start time. And the reciprocal, of course, is that having no DST at all primarily impacts areas east in their respective time zones - they'd theoretically wake up at 4am and never get to experience a long summer evening.

I also question what better aligns to people's natural clocks - DST or no DST? It's a very subjective matter - by my standards, the sun should rise at 10am and set at midnight  :-P

kalvado

Quote from: formulanone on March 06, 2018, 08:50:31 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 08:01:35 PM
Quote from: formulanone on March 06, 2018, 07:22:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 05:52:40 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)–one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

School bus and parental pick-up schedules, that's why.
Yep, and damn those spoiled brats - they deserve 5 AM alarm clock! But god forbids poor babies walk 50 feet in the dark...
It is really one way or the other, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.

Do you actually have any children, or are you just looking for attention?

You're the only one dragging out the "think of the children" chestnut, and I really don't care one way or another about time changes.
Actually I am laughing at that argument. Ever heard of sarcasm?



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