Slate: 'New Jersey ban on self-service gasoline: The madness must stop'

[roadman65]

Well that may be now, but not when true Americans (not Indians or Muslims with the turbins) pumped your gas.

You mean Turbans. And only two sorts of Muslims wear Turbans - male descendants of Mohammed and Imams - it is highly unlikely that either would pump gas. You almost certainly mean Sikhs, which is a totally different thing. It's a fairly easy mistake to make, given that there aren't that many Sikhs.

Whoa, roadman65 is going all PC by pointing out that Native Americans are not Indians.

LOL - I hope that's what he meant. But sadly, as I was typing this post, looks like we do have someone who thinks those of South Asian descent (and Muslims) can't be true Americans 

Whoa, roadman65 is going all PC by pointing out that Native Americans are not Indians.

What are you talking about?  Obviously you do not get out much at all or else you would know who owns most convenience stores these days.

NE2 made a deliberate and creative charitable misreading of your post to explain away the massive and blatant racism.

Way to dig yourself deeper

I was not being racist!  I only mentioned the fact that there was a change in status in gas stations.  I am not saying that Muslims and any other parties should not own gas stations, as I do believe in this nation.   True maybe I should have said something different as supposed to true Americans and regret it deeply.   I did not know what words to use as their was none other that I could use. 

Anyway, then you should say something to motel owners when they post something on their sign saying "American owned an operated" because I think it is obvious to that and one owner of a business in Avon Park, FL has that along US 27.   

I am proud to be a true Christian and love all my brothers and sisters no matter what race, color, sex, or creed is and always have. 

[1995hoo]

Regarding Indians, I believe there's a gas station halfway across Florida on I-75 owned by an Indian tribe, but I never stop there because it's reputed to be extraordinarily expensive due to the lack of competition.

I don't much care who owns the gas station as long as (a) the pumps work properly including the auto shut-off feature, (b) the price is not out of line with everywhere else in the area (relevant near my house–the Shell station I usually patronize is usually 10¢ to 20¢ a gallon cheaper than the other two Shell stations about a mile and a half to the west), (c) the station looks reasonably well maintained (if it doesn't, I tend to assume the pumps are not maintained correctly either), and (d) I can get assistance if the pump fails to print a receipt.

[Brandon]

BTW, my gripe regarding those not being able to speak the language, regardless of ethnic origin, while working in a service-customer-interaction-related position isn't just limited to gas/service stations.  Many years ago; I was practically pulling out what little hair I had left on my head because somebody at either a Burger King or KFC could not comprehend my order because their English was very limited; and no, it was not a long nor complicated order.

Hell, for that matter, I've run into enough people who were born in the US (white and black) and have a complete lack of knowledge of basic standard English, or at least have no clue how to understand the Inland Northern Cities accent.

[J N Winkler]

PHLBOS cites most of the reasons it is not a good idea to attempt self-serve in NJ and Oregon.  I haven't checked the relevant legislation in either state, but I am reasonably certain it includes sanctions for the stations that allow customers to pump their own gas, not just the customers themselves.  I have travelled in both states and have never encountered a gas station with an unattended pump.

I did some Web research and have discovered the following facts:

*  New Jersey and Oregon introduced mandatory full-serve in 1949 and 1951 respectively, the original justification in both cases being to promote public safety by ensuring that only trained gas jockeys would operate the rather primitive gas pumps then in use.  At the time full serve was the norm nationally, self-serve not being introduced until the late 1960's or early 1970's.

*  There have been multiple repeal efforts in both states.  In NJ they have failed (so far) because mandatory full-serve is popular with NJ residents.  In Oregon repeal efforts have had the backing of major oil companies, who hate mandatory full-serve too, but have failed because (1) mandatory full-serve has become entrenched as a birthright policy, like the lack of a sales tax, and (2) one of the cited justifications is minimizing groundwater contamination due to spilled gasoline.

There also seems to be a widespread perception that customers have a right to object to mandatory full-serve only if it means they pay more for gas than they would otherwise pay in other states.  In New Jersey this is clearly not the case because of the state's low gas tax.  Other objections to mandatory full-serve--credit card out of the customer's sight, gas jockey doesn't know pump won't shut off when tank is full, gas jockey doesn't know tank will trigger premature shutoff when it is not full, possibility of fuel spilled onto the car finish, customer doesn't want a gas jockey hovering over him, etc.--are written off as edge cases unworthy of regulatory consideration.

http://askville.amazon.com/Jersey-full-service-gas-stations-states/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2527644

http://freakonomics.com/2011/07/07/the-wastefulness-of-new-jerseys-gas-pumping-restrictions/

http://defenderofthemiddleclass.com/why-new-jersey-has-full-service-gas-stations

In regard to the suggestion upthread that union strength is responsible for the persistence of mandatory full-serve in NJ, I doubt that is the case, except indirectly.  Mandatory full-serve does keep the unemployment rate somewhat lower than would otherwise be the case, and unions in general have a reason to support full-employment policies because that keeps the labor market tight in general, and thus makes their wage demands easier to support.  However, as has been pointed out, unions organize by industry or profession, and gas jockeying is precisely the kind of casual occupation that is almost impossible to unionize.  Rather, I think defense of incumbency advantage is going on, and that is something that applies just as readily to employers' associations as it does to unions.  One example of this elsewhere in the transportation field is trucking firms supporting quantity licensing for trucks, even though that restricts the volume of goods that can be sent by road, because the licensing system creates a barrier for new entrants and thus protects the profits of the operators that already have licenses.

[Brandon]

Regarding Indians, I believe there's a gas station halfway across Florida on I-75 owned by an Indian tribe, but I never stop there because it's reputed to be extraordinarily expensive due to the lack of competition.

Quite the contrast from the western UP.  There, the station on the rez (Baraga, MI) owned by the Amerinds (Ojibwa in this case) tends to be the cheapest for miles around.  It can be as much as 30 cents cheaper than the stations in Houghton.  As such, a lot of MTU students drive down there for fuel and visit the casino at the same time. 

[Brandon]

*  There have been multiple repeal efforts in both states.  In NJ they have failed (so far) because mandatory full-serve is popular with NJ residents.  In Oregon repeal efforts have had the backing of major oil companies, who hate mandatory full-serve too, but have failed because (1) mandatory full-serve has become entrenched as a birthright policy, like the lack of a sales tax, and (2) one of the cited justifications is minimizing groundwater contamination due to spilled gasoline.

Which is complete horseshit.  The amount of gasoline or diesel fuel spilled from a retail operation while fueling vehicles or jerrycans is very minimal and will very rarely reach the groundwater table.  It mostly volatilizes on the concrete around the dispenser islands.  The leading cause of groundwater contamination from fueling stations is leaking underground storage tanks and fuel lines leading to the dispensers, not the occasional spill from someone who over filled a fuel tank in a vehicle.  If overspills are a problem, it is from overfilling the USTs at the filling station from the fuel truck and the fuel truck operator, not the customers.

[J N Winkler]

*  There have been multiple repeal efforts in both states.  In NJ they have failed (so far) because mandatory full-serve is popular with NJ residents.  In Oregon repeal efforts have had the backing of major oil companies, who hate mandatory full-serve too, but have failed because (1) mandatory full-serve has become entrenched as a birthright policy, like the lack of a sales tax, and (2) one of the cited justifications is minimizing groundwater contamination due to spilled gasoline.

Which is complete horseshit.  The amount of gasoline or diesel fuel spilled from a retail operation while fueling vehicles or jerrycans is very minimal and will very rarely reach the groundwater table.  It mostly volatilizes on the concrete around the dispenser islands.  The leading cause of groundwater contamination from fueling stations is leaking underground storage tanks and fuel lines leading to the dispensers, not the occasional spill from someone who over filled a fuel tank in a vehicle.  If overspills are a problem, it is from overfilling the USTs at the filling station from the fuel truck and the fuel truck operator, not the customers.

You won't hear any disagreement from me on that point--the USTs are definitely the real problem.  It is really a question of optics.  As devoid of factual support as that justification is, it plays really, really well in environmentally-conscious Oregon.

[jeffandnicole]

The whole problem is that the Unions are strong in New Jersey, which is why there are not too many Wal Mart Supercenters in the Garden State.   49 other states have full service WalMarts with supermarkets, but NJ does not.   

Also, with Wal Mart I did not say that there were NO supercenters, but not many.

Actually, you made both statements.

The first Super Walmart in NJ opened in 2005, and was actually a converted regular Walmart - in Turnersville.  And unlike a small, cram-it-in-there-and-we'll-make-it-work remodel job, they did a complete addition and remodel job, increasing the store size to 202,000 sq ft. (http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/309865/walmart_opens_first_supercenter_in_new_jersey/) For me, it was also the closest Walmart to my home, which has since been bested by the 2 Deptford locations.  Some other older Walmarts have added mini-grocery areas, but lack fresh deli & produce.  Any new Walmarts that have been built in this state over the past 5+ years are of the Super Walmart variety with full grocery store offerings.

I'm not sure if Delaware has any true Super Walmarts - if they do, they are down below the C&D Canal.  Some of their stores may be labeled a Super Walmart because they have groceries, but they don't have a deli or produce section, similiar to the older NJ locations.

Add that to the fact in NJ they are everything, but groceries, it does tell you something.   Plus, New Jersey is traditionally known as to be a Union State, by the old timers.   I have had more dealings with pre baby boomers being of in my late 40s, so I hear the real deal that our society's media and news wants all of us today not to know about.

I live in NJ, so I don't have to go on hearsay. I see it, live it, and breath it everyday. And the fact is, Walmarts with full grocery stores are alive and well in NJ.

[jeffandnicole]

Good luck trying that in either NJ or OR.  Despite what's been stated on this thread; you're attempting to do such could either involve your getting fined (if not arrested) and/or refusal of service.

No you won't get fined or arrested (at least in NJ...I don't know about Oregon's laws).  In fact, there's no penalty whatsoever towards the consumer if he/she pumps their own gas - it's the gas station that would be penaltized for allowing someone to pump their own gas.  The NJ laws that relate to this are 34:3A-4 - 34:3A-10.  And the fine for a first offense: $50. 

BTW, unless you can prove to me otherwise, NO ONE has ever received a fine for allowing someone to pump their own gas in NJ. 

And like what most people have stated, many times, the attendants don't really care if you pump your own gas. I had 3 people in my years of pumping my own gas in NJ say something, mostly along the lines of 'you know you shouldn't be doing that' (OK, there was one guy that was a real asshole about it at a Wawa, and his manager bought me a coffee for the inconvenience he caused!). 

[DSS5]

many of the hoses cut off before the tank is full; so spillage due to overflows aren't an issue and my experiences w/such includes fueling a 1976 Ford LTD during much of the 1990s and early 2000s so the old car argument doesn't hold water here.

Like I said, you have to hold the nozzle up and at an angle to get it to pump. If you just put it in normally it will keep cutting off as if it was full. It won't cut off before it is full or ever when being held like that.

[hbelkins]

Too much to try to quote and insert in this thread, so...

RE: Walmart Supercenters. I don't think Vermont has any true Supercenters. In fact, last time I checked, there are only four Walmarts in the entire state. I've been in the one in Rutland and have seen the one in Bennington.

RE: hold-open nozzles in Massachusetts. Anytime I encounter a pump that doesn't have a latch to hold the nozzle open, I stick my gas cap in there to hold it open so I can wash my windshield without having to stand there and hold the nozzle and wait until the pump cuts off.

RE: American-owned convenience stores. I would like to be the first to welcome former Delaware Senator and current Vice President Biden to the forum. 

RE: New Jersey's law in general. I hate it, and despite the lower prices often available vs. surrounding states, I make it a point not to buy gas in Jersey when I'm traveling through the area in protest. I don't mind someone else pumping my gas, but I don't pay extra for the privilege and I certainly don't like the practice being mandated. Jersey gas prices would probably be even cheaper if the stations didn't have to pay for pump jockey labor.

RE: Availability of full-serve in other states. I think "full-serve" is a misnomer because when I was growing up, full-serve meant you got your windshield washed, your oil checked and if you wanted, your tire pressures checked. In Kentucky we have a chain called Swifty that pumps your gas for you. It used to be the same price as self-serve; now it's usually a few cents higher.

RE: People who don't like pumping their own gas. My mother refused to pump her own gas. I don't know why. She was perfectly capable of it. She either used full-service pumps or had one of us boys pump her gas when we were with her. I obviously don't mind pumping my own gas because on long trips I try to stop as infrequently as possible, and getting gas gives me a chance to stretch my legs.

[KEVIN_224]

I hate that law in New Jersey, to be honest!

Just for the heck of it, who was the last state to phase out full-serve gasoline with attendants?

[PHLBOS]

Good luck trying that in either NJ or OR.  Despite what's been stated on this thread; you're attempting to do such could either involve your getting fined (if not arrested) and/or refusal of service.

No you won't get fined or arrested (at least in NJ...I don't know about Oregon's laws).  In fact, there's no penalty whatsoever towards the consumer if he/she pumps their own gas - it's the gas station that would be penaltized for allowing someone to pump their own gas.  The NJ laws that relate to this are 34:3A-4 - 34:3A-10.  And the fine for a first offense: $50. 

BTW, unless you can prove to me otherwise, NO ONE has ever received a fine for allowing someone to pump their own gas in NJ.

Fair enough, but you might've overlooked the last portion of my earlier post...(possible) refusal of service.

I'm not saying that has happened nor know of an actual incident; but if an attendant saw a motorist filling their tank on their own (and the station may have been fined for allowing such previously, one doesn't always know), the attendant could legally stop the motorist from continuing and deny him/her of service... much like stopping or evicting an attempted shop-lifter. 

RE: hold-open nozzles in Massachusetts. Anytime I encounter a pump that doesn't have a latch to hold the nozzle open, I stick my gas cap in there to hold it open so I can wash my windshield without having to stand there and hold the nozzle and wait until the pump cuts off.

Since many gas caps are now plastic (vs. metal) such maneuver done frequently could (not saying would) damage the gas cap long term.  Additionally, many newer vehicles now have a cap-less filling system as standard equipment.

[hubcity]

As a New Jerseyan, I like the law. Ask yourself: why would the major oil companies lobby for self-serve? It ain't because it'd make them *less* money...

[spooky]

RE: hold-open nozzles in Massachusetts. Anytime I encounter a pump that doesn't have a latch to hold the nozzle open, I stick my gas cap in there to hold it open so I can wash my windshield without having to stand there and hold the nozzle and wait until the pump cuts off.

I once saw someone use a lighter to prop the nozzle open so they didn't have to hold it.

[jeffandnicole]

...I'm not saying that has happened nor know of an actual incident; but if an attendant saw a motorist filling their tank on their own (and the station may have been fined for allowing such previously, one doesn't always know), the attendant could legally stop the motorist from continuing and deny him/her of service... much like stopping or evicting an attempted shop-lifter.

Maybe...although that argument won't fly if I've already swiped my credit card to turn the pump on!  There are a few stations where the station attendant has to swipe an employee card first before the credit card (or accepting cash).

And if an attendant did cut someone off from pumping their own gas, a smart consumer would know the law, call the police (or whoever could issue a fine in this case), and now the station would STILL be on the hook, because they allowed the consumer to pump their own gas...even if they didn't intend on it happening!

There is one station I'm aware of in NJ - the Loves Truck Stop off Exit 7 of the NJ Turnpike (Exit 56 of I-295) - where the machines can accept cash as well, although I don't know if they actually use that feature with the attendants there.

As a New Jerseyan, I like the law. Ask yourself: why would the major oil companies lobby for self-serve? It ain't because it'd make them *less* money...

I'd say it may even cost the station more money to operate a full-serve station, as most of them have small booths outside for the attendant along with full-service signage and warnings.  Not very costly items, but still items nonetheless that aren't needed in other states.

[PColumbus73]

I don't see the problem with manditory full-service. If I were to drive through either Oregon or New Jersey, it wouldn't bother me to have someone else pump my gas.

If full service stations were reinstated in other states, self-service would still be an option to those who deline full-service. It would create a few more jobs at least.

[bugo]

Whoa, roadman65 is going all PC by pointing out that Native Americans are not Indians.

Don't tell that to Oklahoma Indians.  They call themselves "Indians".  The hospital in Claremore is known as the "Indian Hospital" by everybody.  I rarely hear "Native American".

[aerules]

I'm also from NJ.  I usually put the  card in the pump myself and then have the attendant pump the gas.  I beleve NJ and Oregon have the cheapest gas station insurance rates in the country because they are full serve.   I know the full serve only place by my sister in NY is  the cheapest. 

[ZLoth]

To me, there are bigger concerns out there than whether or not Oregon and New Jersey offer self-serve gas service.

[Scott5114]

To me, there are bigger concerns out there than whether or not Oregon and New Jersey offer self-serve gas service.

There are bigger concerns out there than what font road signs use. If we get stuck on that line of thinking pretty soon we won't have a forum.

[Alps]

To me, there are bigger concerns out there than whether or not Oregon and New Jersey offer self-serve gas service.

There are bigger concerns out there than what font road signs use. If we get stuck on that line of thinking pretty soon we won't have a forum.

NO THERE ARE NOT

[Scott5114]

To me, there are bigger concerns out there than whether or not Oregon and New Jersey offer self-serve gas service.

There are bigger concerns out there than what font road signs use. If we get stuck on that line of thinking pretty soon we won't have a forum.

NO THERE ARE NOT

[Brandon]

To me, there are bigger concerns out there than whether or not Oregon and New Jersey offer self-serve gas service.

There are bigger concerns out there than what font road signs use. If we get stuck on that line of thinking pretty soon we won't have a forum.

NO THERE ARE NOT

The Clearview, MY EYES, HOW THEY BURN! 

[realjd]

I got news for you, most people here in Florida would love to have full serve again! 

[citation needed]

In all my years living in Florida, I've never, not once, heard anyone say they wanted full serve gas.