What are the most minuscule/meaningless/useless control cities you've ever seen posted on large green signs for expressways and tollways? I know there's a section of I-80 in PA that's signed as "80 East- Bloomsburg." What the crap is a Bloomsburg?
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0528358,-76.8801697,3a,75y,119.41h,83.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgeGIcGfpcV2n2dfxSmr3_w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DgeGIcGfpcV2n2dfxSmr3_w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D182.43213%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656
I-180 in Illinois is signed toward "Hennepin," which is a useless town, but that's because all of I-180 is useless along with it.
Any other useless control cities you've seen on signs?
Staying in Illinois, I-355 North from I-80 lists Rockford even though the interstate doesn't go anywhere near the city (it feeds into I-290, which links to I-90 that heads to Rockford). Honestly it should be labeled Schaumburg
I suppose any control city is not useful for someone not from that area, especially if it's a smaller city. I drove down to Florida a few years ago, and upon hitting the end of I-65 in Mobile, saw I-10 west pointing toward Pascagoula. I knew which way I wanted to go, but was anticipating seeing Biloxi or maybe even New Orleans on that sign. I have probably heard of Pascagoula, but don't think I could have put it on a map before then.
By the same standard, people driving east from Denver who are not from the region probably wonder what the hell a Limon is.
Well, what the hell is a Philadelphia, or what is a Chicago?
Honestly, most people driving aren't going long distances. In general, most people travel no more than about 17 minutes to get to a business, which is about 15 miles top in rural areas that requires highway driving. Along 80 in PA, Bloomsburg is probably a big destination. The vast majority of the travelers aren't going anywhere near New York, and probably aren't even leaving PA. Thus, New York would be the useless control city.
Why do I-93 North signs in parts of Massachusetts say "Concord NH"? Manchester NH is closer and larger.
Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2016, 12:19:03 PM
Why do I-93 North signs in parts of Massachusetts say "Concord NH"? Manchester NH is closer and larger.
I assume it's because 93 goes directly through Concord, while staying away and out of sight of downtown Manchester....which is served by 3 & I-293.
Lots of them in Illinois:
1) East St. Louis as a secondary control city. It's only ~3 miles from the primary control city. With future sign replacements East St. Louis should be dropped and only St. Louis used instead. If there is that great of need for a secondary control, use either Troy or Collinsville for I-55 and I-70, and maybe use O' Fallon for I-64 (and hope it doesn't get confused with O' Fallon, Missouri).
2) All the various "[cardinal direction] Suburbs" around Chicagoland. Way too vague and open to misinterpretation.
3) Iowa on I-88. There was not anything wrong with Moline - Rock Island. If there is that great of need for an indication that I-88 provides a route to Iowa, use Des Moines or maybe even Iowa City.
4) The use of Wisconsin on I-90 well before Rockford
5) Danville on IL 394. Unless IL 1 will be getting upgraded to an expressway in the next decade - which AFAIK is not happening - it should be switched to Crete or Beecher.
New York on I-95 north in Maryland; What's to say people aren't heading towards Wilimington, Philadelphia, or New Jersey?
Quote from: Zeffy on March 13, 2016, 01:43:24 PM
New York on I-95 north in Maryland; What's to say people aren't heading towards Wilimington, Philadelphia, or New Jersey?
U.S. 40 (Pulaski Highway) between Baltimore and the Delaware line has several signs that mention Philadelphia, even though U.S. 40 has never gone to or through Philly.
I believe the discontinuity in I-95 (thanks mostly to NIMBYs in and around Princeton, N.J. - and to the snail-like pace of the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission to build an interchange between I-95 (Delaware Expressway) and I-276 (E-W Mainline of the Pennsylvania Turnpike) at Bristol) are to blame.
Once the interchange at Bristol is completed enough to complete I-95 itself, then the signage for I-95 northbound in Maryland should be Wilmington, Philadelphia and New York.
Similar but different topic (which I remember because I started it):
Biggest claim to fame: control city (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11753.msg282745#msg282745)
"All Maine Points" for 95 in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, is not a great one. It's not the best way to get to Fryeburg or Sunday River, for example, which are better accessed by exiting at that very point toward the Spaulding Turnpike.
I've always thought Benson was an odd choice on various signs in North Carolina. Even people who live in North Carolina don't really have a sense for where that is. It comes across as, essentially, "Crap, we want to sign the I-40/I-95 interchange as the next major waypoint, so what's the nearest town?"
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 13, 2016, 04:57:04 PM
I've always thought Benson was an odd choice on various signs in North Carolina. Even people who live in North Carolina don't really have a sense for where that is. It comes across as, essentially, "Crap, we want to sign the I-40/I-95 interchange as the next major waypoint, so what's the nearest town?"
Wasn't it once Richmond at some point? When I was a baby in 2004, I remember going up there and I saw "Richmond" for one BGS. Probably gone.
I remember a Michael Summa photo from the 1970's that shows that the Massachusetts Turnpike goes "to all points".
We've had this discussion before.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 13, 2016, 01:30:04 PM
Lots of them in Illinois:
1) East St. Louis as a secondary control city. It's only ~3 miles from the primary control city. With future sign replacements East St. Louis should be dropped and only St. Louis used instead. If there is that great of need for a secondary control, use either Troy or Collinsville for I-55 and I-70, and maybe use O' Fallon for I-64 (and hope it doesn't get confused with O' Fallon, Missouri).
2) All the various "[cardinal direction] Suburbs" around Chicagoland. Way too vague and open to misinterpretation.
3) Iowa on I-88. There was not anything wrong with Moline - Rock Island. If there is that great of need for an indication that I-88 provides a route to Iowa, use Des Moines or maybe even Iowa City.
4) The use of Wisconsin on I-90 well before Rockford
5) Danville on IL 394. Unless IL 1 will be getting upgraded to an expressway in the next decade - which AFAIK is not happening - it should be switched to Crete or Beecher.
Nope, on I-70 this last fall, all mileage signs along the way west of Vandalia now omit "East St. Louis" and have only two destinations. The next interchange and St. Louis itself are post interchange now. Both entrance ramps from US 40 and US 51 at Vandalia now use "St. Louis" as westbound I-70 control city.
I cannot speak for I-64 though as GSV has not yet been on it recently, unless they just have in the past few months. So they could still be using East St. Louis.
What about Memphis on I-57? Does anyone really go there from Chicago? When I first saw it on I-80 back in 1987, I actually thought that Illinois had their very own Memphis instead of Elvis Presley's former home.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2016, 12:13:34 PM
Well, what the hell is a Philadelphia, or what is a Chicago?
Honestly, most people driving aren't going long distances. In general, most people travel no more than about 17 minutes to get to a business, which is about 15 miles top in rural areas that requires highway driving. Along 80 in PA, Bloomsburg is probably a big destination. The vast majority of the travelers aren't going anywhere near New York, and probably aren't even leaving PA. Thus, New York would be the useless control city.
Is that true, though, of people who get on the interstates? Particularly outside of metropolitan areas?
In Florida, Lake City. It is so small that I had no idea where the hell it was the first time I drove down there. On I-10, JCT I-75 would be a better control point. Once you get on I-75 South, FDOT understands this concept and has mileage signs for JCT TURNPIKE and JCT I-275.
I think mileage to the next Interstate highway junction should be included on mileage signs. It is needed info, and is muck more useful than small control cities. Also, mileages to state lines would be useful as well.
Quote from: Brian556 on March 13, 2016, 07:44:57 PM
I think mileage to the next Interstate highway junction should be included on mileage signs. It is needed info, and is muck more useful than small control cities. Also, mileages to state lines would be useful as well.
Agree on the first, disagree on the second - state lines are not usually useful for navigation. The state line is usually crossed without turning/needing to change routes. Plus the milemarkers in the WB and SB directions can already provide the distance to the next state (assuming the interstate doesn't end beforehand).
Quote from: hbelkins on March 13, 2016, 06:38:30 PM
We've had this discussion before.
Biggest claim to fame: control city (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11753.0)
Yeah, but on I-95 it would be better to use "I-40 JCT" over "Benson" as more people know the junction more than the small community. "Fayetteville" should be used SB on I-95 from Rocky Mount and "Wilson" should be used NB from Fayetteville. Those are big enough towns along the way that motorists can use for referencing along the way. Having the I-40 Junction on mileage signs would be also a good reference point, but not as a control city on a guide sign.
I don't like Providence being used as a control city for I-384 on I-84. Reminds us of what might have been, but it ends 70 miles short of there, and 84 to 74 to 44 to 101 to 6 is a better way to get to Providence. Should use Willimantic. ConnDOT ought to change it to get back at RIDOT for using New York as a control city on I-95 south instead of New London.
Surprised "Other Desert Cities" hasn't been mentioned yet.
Quote from: ET21 on March 13, 2016, 11:37:26 AM
Staying in Illinois, I-355 North from I-80 lists Rockford even though the interstate doesn't go anywhere near the city (it feeds into I-290, which links to I-90 that heads to Rockford). Honestly it should be labeled Schaumburg
Bam. This is the garbage that inspired me to invent this thread. While I understand there is little point in distinguishing between individual Chicago suburbs, I see little help in simply writing "Northwest Suburbs" and "Southwest Suburbs" for the control cities on I-355. https://goo.gl/maps/n2sLm2sA8PJ2
I would use Schaumburg, Downers Grove, and Lockport. From IL7 south, refer to SB I-355 as toward Joliet or simply "interstate 80."
Quote from: yanksfan6129 on March 13, 2016, 07:20:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2016, 12:13:34 PM
Well, what the hell is a Philadelphia, or what is a Chicago?
Honestly, most people driving aren't going long distances. In general, most people travel no more than about 17 minutes to get to a business, which is about 15 miles top in rural areas that requires highway driving. Along 80 in PA, Bloomsburg is probably a big destination. The vast majority of the travelers aren't going anywhere near New York, and probably aren't even leaving PA. Thus, New York would be the useless control city.
Is that true, though, of people who get on the interstates? Particularly outside of metropolitan areas?
I would say so, in general. It's been pointed out that the true intent of the IHS was to move people long distances. As we see in daily traffic reports and as you hinted, the majority of traffic using the interstates are actually local commuters just going to and from work. If you were to travel along and look at license plates of passing cars, a majority of them will be from the state in which you're traveling.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2016, 10:15:46 AM
Quote from: yanksfan6129 on March 13, 2016, 07:20:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2016, 12:13:34 PM
Well, what the hell is a Philadelphia, or what is a Chicago?
Honestly, most people driving aren't going long distances. In general, most people travel no more than about 17 minutes to get to a business, which is about 15 miles top in rural areas that requires highway driving. Along 80 in PA, Bloomsburg is probably a big destination. The vast majority of the travelers aren't going anywhere near New York, and probably aren't even leaving PA. Thus, New York would be the useless control city.
Is that true, though, of people who get on the interstates? Particularly outside of metropolitan areas?
I would say so, in general. It's been pointed out that the true intent of the IHS was to move people long distances. As we see in daily traffic reports and as you hinted, the majority of traffic using the interstates are actually local commuters just going to and from work. If you were to travel along and look at license plates of passing cars, a majority of them will be from the state in which you're traveling.
This is very very true. But I think guide signs would be more helpful to someone who isn't already familiar with the area. Chances are, if you're going to Bloomsburg, you're a local who already knows how to get to Bloomsburg. This doesn't necessarily prioritize short-term destinations over long-term destinations, though. There is a tendency for long-term destinations to appear as control cities on signs for transitions from freeway to freeway, and a tendency to see short-term destinations at rural access points. So that's a good thing I think.
I nominate "Bay St. Louis" on I-10 east of Slidell. I-10 bypasses Bay St. Louis almost completely. Gulfport would be a better control city. (The use of Bay St. Louis dates to the days when I-10 wasn't finished and eastbound traffic had to detour through BSL. That also gives us Pascagoula as the control city westbound from Mobile.)
In SoCal: Hollywood as a control city on the 170 south, Los Angeles and Artesia as control cities on the 91 west, Anaheim as a control city on the 55 north, South County as a control city on the 241, Santa Margarita as a control city on the 241 and 133.
Used to be I-485 with "Rock Hill SC" - they've fixed it now :clap: :clap: to NCDOT
BUT I-85 between Charlotte and High Point is still "Kannapolis (arrow here)" on directional signs for exit ramps :P
A couple more dumb ones in Illinois:
From I-80/94/294, the exit to IL-394 is signed as "Danville." Danville is like 2.5 hours away down IL-1. NOBODY is taking that exit so they can get all the way to Danville. Labeling a town on IL-1 is fine since IL-394 connects to IL-1, but at least understand it's being used locally for towns like Crete and Beecher. Not Danville Lol.
North of I-55/70 in Illinois, I-255 is signed as toward "Interstate 270." They used Interstate 270 as a control city.
Perhaps sign this as toward Alton/Godfrey or even just Bethalto or Roxana. But it'd be nice if we used an actual town!
The issue might be that I-255 and IL-255 are two different routes, so they don't want to put a control city on the sign unless it's actually on I-255. But maybe we could change I-255 north of I-55 into a new numbered route like I-755 (and extend it to include IL-255). Why hasn't IL-255 been upgraded to an Interstate, anyway?
Rocky Mount, NC, on I-95 South through Richmond.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on March 15, 2016, 11:10:01 PM
In SoCal: Hollywood as a control city on the 170 south, Los Angeles and Artesia as control cities on the 91 west, Anaheim as a control city on the 55 north, South County as a control city on the 241, Santa Margarita as a control city on the 241 and 133.
They need to use Hollywood on the 170 to distinguish the control city of Los Angeles on I-5. But in reality, both the 170 and I-5 go to Downtown LA equally well. (And 170 to 101 is the only way for trucks to reach the CBD without leaving freeways because of the truck restriction on the 110.) My preference though would be Los Angeles via Hollywood on the 170 and Los Angeles via Burbank on the 5, only signed where the two freeways split.
In West Palm Beach, FL on US 98 & FL 80 there is the very same city the interchange is in as the NB Control city for I-95 N Bound.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Baltimore,+MD/@39.3098034,-76.7450686,3a,66.8y,200.08h,94.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1saKk9ko3h-ochGL9Zp6GoUw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c803aed6f483b7:0x44896a84223e758 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Baltimore,+MD/@39.3098034,-76.7450686,3a,66.8y,200.08h,94.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1saKk9ko3h-ochGL9Zp6GoUw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c803aed6f483b7:0x44896a84223e758)
I've heard that "Local Traffic" is where you can get on one of those buses going to "Charter." But judging from those buses, "Charter" is a just town full of old people anyway.
IMHO, understanding the fundamental geographic illiteracy that aflicts many people, a control city should, in most cases, should be the next town with enough economic, social, political, or populational significance that a reasonablly in-tune person would have heard of, with particular "extra points" given for junctions with other routes of equal rank. Particular importance given when two roads of equal rank diverge in the same signed direction (i.e. 77 and 79 in Charleston, WV or 85 and 95 in Petersburg, VA) .
And, and we have had this discussion before, what exactly does one do with I-80 between Youngstown and Newark? It is through one of the more unpopulated parts of the east and really passes through no town of any consequence. They have to say something. Youngstown and Newark / NYC are not helpful either.
Anyway, in and near WV, I would first nominate Fairmont. An insignificant town of 17K used as the control city north of Clarksburg and south of Morgantown. Really Morgantown should be that. And then in Morgantowon, they use Washington, PA, the PA being needed because the first use is the junction with 68 so the real Washington is the exact other way. Yes, it is the junction with 70, but really Pittsburgh is vastly more important.
Bluefield is used on 77 for historical reasons, as it used to be a far more significant place, but really Princeton has eclipsed it and the logical way to Bluefield is not 77 at the Princeton exit. I don't get Ohio use of Marrietta and then Cambridge on 77. Should be Cleveland. And I have never gotten Kentucky's use of Ashland on 64. 64 really does not go to Ashland, and Huntington is a much larger place.
Quote from: ET21 on March 13, 2016, 11:37:26 AM
Staying in Illinois, I-355 North from I-80 lists Rockford even though the interstate doesn't go anywhere near the city (it feeds into I-290, which links to I-90 that heads to Rockford). Honestly it should be labeled Schaumburg
What about someday volo or maybe even Richmond / wisconsin? When IL-53 / IL-120 is build?
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 13, 2016, 12:36:15 AM
I know there's a section of I-80 in PA that's signed as "80 East- Bloomsburg." What the crap is a Bloomsburg?
Well, Bloomsburg is home to the 10,000-student Bloomsburg University. Therefore, it's a college town and was probably deemed notable enough by PennDOT or whoever to be a control city.
I'd say if it's not part of a top 200 Primary Statistical Area per Census standards, then it doesn't belong on a control city sign.
Quote from: Dan on March 13, 2016, 12:26:35 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2016, 12:19:03 PM
Why do I-93 North signs in parts of Massachusetts say "Concord NH"? Manchester NH is closer and larger.
I assume it's because 93 goes directly through Concord, while staying away and out of sight of downtown Manchester....which is served by 3 & I-293.
The signs on I-93 used to say Salem NH. They were changed to read Concord NH during the 1991-1992 sign replacement projects between Somerville and Methuen. The story goes that this change was made to appease the Salem MA Chamber of Commerce, who had apparently complained to MassDPW that throngs of tourists destined for the Witch City were winding up in New Hampshire instead.
As those projects replaced the sign panels but kept the structures, Concord NH was used as a replacement instead of Manchester NH due to panel width constraints. The latest round of I-93 sign replacements done between 2011 and 2014 kept Concord NH as the control city, although both the signs and structures were changed out. AFAIK, the suggestion to change the signs to Manchester NH, which IMO has some merit to it, never formally came up during the design review process for the work.
Regarding "Rocky Mount, NC" on I-95 in Virginia and "Bloomsberg(sp?)" for I-80W in PA, I'm not sure what else you would use for either as an alternative. Same with "Benson" on I-40 (I guess Wilmington alone might work, except I-40 ends a fair distance from Wilmington proper.
Quote from: roadman on August 09, 2016, 02:49:37 PM
Quote from: Dan on March 13, 2016, 12:26:35 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2016, 12:19:03 PM
Why do I-93 North signs in parts of Massachusetts say "Concord NH"? Manchester NH is closer and larger.
I assume it's because 93 goes directly through Concord, while staying away and out of sight of downtown Manchester....which is served by 3 & I-293.
The signs on I-93 used to say Salem NH. They were changed to read Concord NH during the 1991-1992 sign replacement projects between Somerville and Methuen. The story goes that this change was made to appease the Salem MA Chamber of Commerce, who had apparently complained to MassDPW that throngs of tourists destined for the Witch City were winding up in New Hampshire instead.
As those projects replaced the sign panels but kept the structures, Concord NH was used as a replacement instead of Manchester NH due to panel width constraints. The latest round of I-93 sign replacements done between 2011 and 2014 kept Concord NH as the control city, although both the signs and structures were changed out. AFAIK, the suggestion to change the signs to Manchester NH, which IMO has some merit to it, never formally came up during the design review process for the work.
Side bar question: the above doesn't explain why
Lawrence was dropped from being an I-93 control city during the early 90s? Many of the 70s era BGS'/LGS', that the ones from the early 90s replaced, included it w/the
Salem, NH listing or even just listed
Lawrence alone.
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 18, 2016, 01:14:09 PM
Quote from: roadman on August 09, 2016, 02:49:37 PM
Quote from: Dan on March 13, 2016, 12:26:35 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2016, 12:19:03 PM
Why do I-93 North signs in parts of Massachusetts say "Concord NH"? Manchester NH is closer and larger.
I assume it's because 93 goes directly through Concord, while staying away and out of sight of downtown Manchester....which is served by 3 & I-293.
The signs on I-93 used to say Salem NH. They were changed to read Concord NH during the 1991-1992 sign replacement projects between Somerville and Methuen. The story goes that this change was made to appease the Salem MA Chamber of Commerce, who had apparently complained to MassDPW that throngs of tourists destined for the Witch City were winding up in New Hampshire instead.
As those projects replaced the sign panels but kept the structures, Concord NH was used as a replacement instead of Manchester NH due to panel width constraints. The latest round of I-93 sign replacements done between 2011 and 2014 kept Concord NH as the control city, although both the signs and structures were changed out. AFAIK, the suggestion to change the signs to Manchester NH, which IMO has some merit to it, never formally came up during the design review process for the work.
Side bar question: the above doesn't explain why Lawrence was dropped from being an I-93 control city during the early 90s? Many of the 70s era BGS'/LGS', that the ones from the early 90s replaced, included it w/the Salem, NH listing or even just listed Lawrence alone.
You can thank the FHWA regional office, which had final approval on the early 1990s sign replacements, for that one. Or, more specifically, one particular FHWA engineer who required that a) ALL destinations on LGS and BGS signs in an Interstate highway project be approved control cities and b) insisted that all LGS signs on secondary roads (MassDPW D6/D8 panels) for the Interstate entrances have identical legends on the advance and point of turn signs - MassDPW practice for years was to provide a second destination on a point of turn D6 sign that followed an advance D8 sign.
Quote from: OracleUsr on August 10, 2016, 06:57:26 AM
Regarding "Rocky Mount, NC" on I-95 in Virginia and "Bloomsburg" for I-80W in PA, I'm not sure what else you would use for either as an alternative. Same with "Benson" on I-40 (I guess Wilmington alone might work, except I-40 ends a fair distance from Wilmington proper.
I think Rocky Mount is fine as a control city for I-95. Its population is larger than Petersburg's and there's a major freeway-freeway connection to Raleigh there with US 64. If you didn't want to use it, though, there's always Fayetteville (similar to Richmond in terms of population), which actually is used as a control city on I-95 south of Rocky Mount.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 08, 2016, 11:00:22 PM
I'd say if it's not part of a top 200 Primary Statistical Area per Census standards, then it doesn't belong on a control city sign.
By that logic, I-94 W out of Fargo, ND, and I-90 W out of Sioux Falls, SD, would have Spokane, WA as the control city. Fargo to Spokane is over 1100 miles, and Sioux Falls to Spokane is over 1200 (using the US 212 cut off through SD and MT). Bismarck on I-94, Rapid City and Sheridan, WY on I-90, and Billings on both are used as control cities currently, but no longer if the cutoff was top 200.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 08, 2016, 11:00:22 PM
I'd say if it's not part of a top 200 Primary Statistical Area per Census standards, then it doesn't belong on a control city sign.
That that include the smaller state capitals?
Quote from: roadman on August 18, 2016, 01:39:58 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 18, 2016, 01:14:09 PMSide bar question: the above doesn't explain why Lawrence was dropped from being an I-93 control city during the early 90s? Many of the 70s era BGS'/LGS', that the ones from the early 90s replaced, included it w/the Salem, NH listing or even just listed Lawrence alone.
You can thank the FHWA regional office, which had final approval on the early 1990s sign replacements, for that one. Or, more specifically, one particular FHWA engineer who required that a) ALL destinations on LGS and BGS signs in an Interstate highway project be approved control cities and b) insisted that all LGS signs on secondary roads (MassDPW D6/D8 panels) for the Interstate entrances have identical legends on the advance and point of turn signs - MassDPW practice for years was to provide a second destination on a point of turn D6 sign that followed an advance D8 sign.
Not quite the question I was asking (dual control city listings). I was asking why
Lawrence was removed as an approved control city of I-93?
As earlier stated, there were many BGS'/LGS' from the 70s (& 80s) that listed
just Lawrence on the I-93 northbound signs. The old early 70s vintage BGS' at the Woburn I-95/MA 128 interchange being one example out of many.
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 18, 2016, 04:21:12 PM
Quote from: roadman on August 18, 2016, 01:39:58 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 18, 2016, 01:14:09 PMSide bar question: the above doesn't explain why Lawrence was dropped from being an I-93 control city during the early 90s? Many of the 70s era BGS'/LGS', that the ones from the early 90s replaced, included it w/the Salem, NH listing or even just listed Lawrence alone.
You can thank the FHWA regional office, which had final approval on the early 1990s sign replacements, for that one. Or, more specifically, one particular FHWA engineer who required that a) ALL destinations on LGS and BGS signs in an Interstate highway project be approved control cities and b) insisted that all LGS signs on secondary roads (MassDPW D6/D8 panels) for the Interstate entrances have identical legends on the advance and point of turn signs - MassDPW practice for years was to provide a second destination on a point of turn D6 sign that followed an advance D8 sign.
Not quite the question I was asking (dual control city listings). I was asking why Lawrence was removed as an approved control city of I-93?
As earlier stated, there were many BGS'/LGS' from the 70s (& 80s) that listed just Lawrence on the I-93 northbound signs. The old early 70s vintage BGS' at the Woburn I-95/MA 128 interchange being one example out of many.
I-93 doesn't enter Lawrence.
Quote from: jbnv on August 18, 2016, 04:14:35 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 08, 2016, 11:00:22 PM
I'd say if it's not part of a top 200 Primary Statistical Area per Census standards, then it doesn't belong on a control city sign.
That that include the smaller state capitals?
I-90 has no state capitals on the aforementioned section.
Quote from: 1 on August 18, 2016, 04:21:35 PM
Quote from: jbnv on August 18, 2016, 04:14:35 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 08, 2016, 11:00:22 PM
I'd say if it's not part of a top 200 Primary Statistical Area per Census standards, then it doesn't belong on a control city sign.
That that include the smaller state capitals?
I-90 has no state capitals on the aforementioned section.
Um...
Quote from: FrCorySticha on August 18, 2016, 03:34:32 PM
By that logic, I-94 W out of Fargo, ND, and I-90 W out of Sioux Falls, SD, would have Spokane, WA as the control city. Fargo to Spokane is over 1100 miles, and Sioux Falls to Spokane is over 1200 (using the US 212 cut off through SD and MT). Bismarck on I-94, Rapid City and Sheridan, WY on I-90, and Billings on both are used as control cities currently, but no longer if the cutoff was top 200.
Is Bismarck no longer the capital of North Dakota?
Quote from: jbnv on August 18, 2016, 10:16:35 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 18, 2016, 04:21:35 PM
Quote from: jbnv on August 18, 2016, 04:14:35 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 08, 2016, 11:00:22 PM
I'd say if it's not part of a top 200 Primary Statistical Area per Census standards, then it doesn't belong on a control city sign.
That that include the smaller state capitals?
I-90 has no state capitals on the aforementioned section.
Um...
Quote from: FrCorySticha on August 18, 2016, 03:34:32 PM
By that logic, I-94 W out of Fargo, ND, and I-90 W out of Sioux Falls, SD, would have Spokane, WA as the control city. Fargo to Spokane is over 1100 miles, and Sioux Falls to Spokane is over 1200 (using the US 212 cut off through SD and MT). Bismarck on I-94, Rapid City and Sheridan, WY on I-90, and Billings on both are used as control cities currently, but no longer if the cutoff was top 200.
Is Bismarck no longer the capital of North Dakota?
Bismarck has I-94, not I-90.
Quote from: 1 on August 19, 2016, 06:51:43 AM
Bismarck has I-94, not I-90.
You brought up I-90, not me.
Quote from: 1 on August 18, 2016, 04:21:35 PMI-93 doesn't enter Lawrence.
I-95, in its current alignment, doesn't enter Boston either but is still signed as such.
Newer BGS' along the NJ Turnpike are signed for both Trenton & Camden, depending on location, but such doesn't go through either of those cities.
I've mentioned this before on another thread, but La Grange in NC being used as the westbound control city for US-70 at the US-70/US-70 Bypass split east of Goldsboro makes no sense. The split is west of La Grange and yet La Grange is used for US-70 while Goldsboro is used for US-70 Bypass, which obviously goes around Goldsboro rather than through it as US-70 does.
Basically, it encourges Goldsboro-bound traffic to bypass Goldsboro. Good job, NCDOT! :banghead:
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 18, 2016, 04:21:12 PM
Quote from: roadman on August 18, 2016, 01:39:58 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 18, 2016, 01:14:09 PMSide bar question: the above doesn't explain why Lawrence was dropped from being an I-93 control city during the early 90s? Many of the 70s era BGS'/LGS', that the ones from the early 90s replaced, included it w/the Salem, NH listing or even just listed Lawrence alone.
You can thank the FHWA regional office, which had final approval on the early 1990s sign replacements, for that one. Or, more specifically, one particular FHWA engineer who required that a) ALL destinations on LGS and BGS signs in an Interstate highway project be approved control cities and b) insisted that all LGS signs on secondary roads (MassDPW D6/D8 panels) for the Interstate entrances have identical legends on the advance and point of turn signs - MassDPW practice for years was to provide a second destination on a point of turn D6 sign that followed an advance D8 sign.
Not quite the question I was asking (dual control city listings). I was asking why Lawrence was removed as an approved control city of I-93?
As earlier stated, there were many BGS'/LGS' from the 70s (& 80s) that listed just Lawrence on the I-93 northbound signs. The old early 70s vintage BGS' at the Woburn I-95/MA 128 interchange being one example out of many.
While MassDPW had used Lawrence as a destination on signs for I-93, note that it has never been (and still isn't) on the official AASHTO control cities listing. The engineer I mentioned would not approve any sign legends for signs at Interstate entrances that were not on the official AASHTO list, despite what the MUTCD allows.
Quote from: roadman on August 19, 2016, 10:06:27 AMWhile MassDPW had used Lawrence as a destination on signs for I-93, note that it has never been (and still isn't) on the official AASHTO control cities listing. The engineer I mentioned would not approve any sign legends for signs at Interstate entrances that were not on the official AASHTO list, despite what the MUTCD allows.
Yet
Lawrence has been used & is still used for I-495 signage. Sept./Oct. 2012 installations along I-93 at the I-495 interchange. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6606844,-71.1925799,3a,75y,334.96h,87.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssmXM141gTUk4SuvLTyL9nw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
*Ugh* to the use of Series B numerals on the I-495 shields. Should be Series C; although D would be more tolerable.
New Mexico has plenty of them:
• I-40 going west of Albuquerque is Gallup. Going east is Santa Rosa and then Tucumcari (Amarillo isn't mentioned until you get closer to the Texas state line). But this is not the whole story. At the Unser Blvd. exit going westbound, the overhead signs list Grants and the westbound control city.
• I-25 signs Santa Fe*, Las Vegas, Raton, and Trinidad when you head north from Albuquerque. It lists Las Cruces† going southbound; but between Belen and Socorro, you'll see new control signs still listing Socorro going southbound. And on Broadway Blvd. in Albuquerque, there's a new sign that still lists Belen going southbound on I-25.
• Until the reconstruction of the I-25/I-40 interchange (known as the "Big-I"), Belen used to be control city going south from Albuquerque on I-25, with Socorro becoming the next control city from Belen, then Las Cruces and then El Paso were the last two southbound control cities on I-25.
• I-10 is especially a laughing joke between Las Cruces and the Arizona state line. Going westbound from LC, Deming is the control city, then Lordsburg, and then Tucson. But despite that, Tucson is signed consistently as the ultimate destination on distance signs on that stretch of I-10. Going eastbound, the control cities are Lordsburg, Deming, Las Cruces, and then El Paso. And unlike the westbound side, distance signs don't even mention Las Cruces or El Paso until you've gone past Lordsburg (yet on the Arizona side, El Paso is listed as the ultimate destination on all mileage signs going east from Tucson, not to mention it's also the control city).
Tucson should be the westbound control city from Las Cruces, especially since El Paso is signed going eastbound; and on I-25, El Paso is the control city going south and Albuquerque going north.
Here's the west end of the I-10 business loop in Lordsburg, NM. Tucson is the control city going west, but at least use Las Cruces going eastbound, or better, use El Paso.
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3548375,-108.7389497,3a,75y,247.5h,74.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skSNoatRqmJtIH-DB8SgjWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
And here's the east end of the business loop; Lordsburg is the WB control city. Again, I would use Tucson going west and either Las Cruces or El Paso going east.
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3427366,-108.6802967,3a,75y,123.23h,80.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbMsVRM2FwPZA9RtbfmqAqw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Arizona signs big cities as control cities on its interstates, and I think New Mexico ought to do the same.
*Santa Fe isn't nearly as worthless since it's the state capital of New Mexico; the fourth largest city in the state after Albuquerque, Las Cruces, and Rio Rancho; and a major tourist destination. But I would rather use Colorado Springs or Denver as the control city going north from Albuquerque.
†Compared to Belen and Socorro, Las Cruces isn't that worthless a control city, especially since it's a college town (New Mexico State University is located there). However, I would be better off if El Paso was the southbound control city from Albuquerque on I-25. El Paso is a straight shot from Albuquerque, which is why it's mentioned on many distance signs between Albuquerque and Las Cruces on SB 25; and it also becomes the control city in Las Cruces beginning at the US-70 interchange (exit 6).
Quote from: Brian556 on March 13, 2016, 07:44:57 PM
In Florida, Lake City. It is so small that I had no idea where the hell it was the first time I drove down there. On I-10, JCT I-75 would be a better control point. Once you get on I-75 South, FDOT understands this concept and has mileage signs for JCT TURNPIKE and JCT I-275.
I think mileage to the next Interstate highway junction should be included on mileage signs. It is needed info, and is muck more useful than small control cities. Also, mileages to state lines would be useful as well.
I stayed in Lake City it's a nice little town. Then you could also make the case for Albert Lea MN. It's even smaller and only used for the same reason it's at a major interstate junction. Statesville NC would be another example.
Quote from: MattHanson939 on May 14, 2021, 02:01:24 PM
New Mexico has plenty of them:
- I-40 going west of Albuquerque is Gallup. Going east is Santa Rosa and then Tucumcari (Amarillo isn't mentioned until you get closer to the Texas state line). But this is not the whole story. At the Unser Blvd. exit going westbound, the overhead signs list Grants and the westbound control city.
- I-25 signs Santa Fe*, Las Vegas, Raton, and Trinidad when you head north from Albuquerque. It lists Las Cruces" going southbound; but between Belen and Socorro, you'll see new control signs still listing Socorro going southbound. And on Broadway Blvd. in Albuquerque, there's a new sign that still lists Belen going southbound on I-25.
- Until the reconstruction of the I-25/I-40 interchange (known as the "Big-I"), Belen used to be control city going south from Albuquerque on I-25, with Socorro becoming the next control city from Belen, then Las Cruces and then El Paso were the last two southbound control cities on I-25.
- I-10 is especially a laughing joke between Las Cruces and the Arizona state line. Going westbound from LC, Deming is the control city, then Lordsburg, and then Tucson. But despite that, Tucson is signed consistently as the ultimate destination on distance signs on that stretch of I-10. Going eastbound, the control cities are Lordsburg, Deming, Las Cruces, and then El Paso. And unlike the westbound side, distance signs don't even mention Las Cruces or El Paso until you've gone past Lordsburg (yet on the Arizona side, El Paso is listed as the ultimate destination on all mileage signs going east from Tucson, not to mention it's also the control city).
Tucson should be the westbound control city from Las Cruces, especially since El Paso is signed going eastbound; and on I-25, El Paso is the control city going south and Albuquerque going north.
Here's the west end of the I-10 business loop in Lordsburg, NM. Tucson is the control city going west, but at least use Las Cruces going eastbound, or better, use El Paso.
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3548375,-108.7389497,3a,75y,247.5h,74.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skSNoatRqmJtIH-DB8SgjWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
And here's the east end of the business loop; Lordsburg is the WB control city. Again, I would use Tucson going west and either Las Cruces or El Paso going east.
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3427366,-108.6802967,3a,75y,123.23h,80.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbMsVRM2FwPZA9RtbfmqAqw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Arizona signs big cities as control cities on its interstates, and I think New Mexico ought to do the same.
*Santa Fe isn't nearly as worthless since it's the state capital of New Mexico; the fourth largest city in the state after Albuquerque, Las Cruces, and Rio Rancho; and a major tourist destination. But I would rather use Colorado Springs or Denver as the control city going north from Albuquerque.
" Compared to Belen and Socorro, Las Cruces isn't that worthless a control city, especially since it's a college town (New Mexico State University is located there). However, I would be better off if El Paso was the southbound control city from Albuquerque on I-25. El Paso is a straight shot from Albuquerque, which is why it's mentioned on many distance signs between Albuquerque and Las Cruces on SB 25; and it also becomes the control city in Las Cruces beginning at the US-70 interchange (exit 6).
I would use Santa Fe, and then use Denver north of it.
Quote from: Brian556 on March 13, 2016, 07:44:57 PM
I think mileage to the next Interstate highway junction should be included on mileage signs. It is needed info, and is muck more useful than small control cities.
I mostly agree. There are some examples where as US highway is more helpful than an interstate, particularly if the interstate is a 3dI.
A good example is US 49 in Gulfport. Makes more sense to make US 49 the control point on I-10 east from Slidell than I-110 to Biloxi.
QuoteI would use Santa Fe, and then use Denver north of it.
Or better, use dual Santa Fe/Denver from Albuquerque, and then just use Denver going from Santa Fe.
But why omit Colorado Springs when it's the next major city after Albuquerque going north on I-25? And it's similar to Tucson in terms of the size and population. Yes, it only has one interstate going for it, but due to its size & population, I would see no problems with using Colorado Springs as a control city from New Mexico. And if it surpasses Denver as the largest city in Colorado (i.e. if you're referring to the city proper), then it would have to be northbound control city, and then from C. Springs use Denver.
If Colorado began to use big cities as the control cities on its interstates, it would make sense to use Colorado Springs going south on I-25 from Denver and not use Albuquerque until the interstate reaches the C. Springs city limits. Keep Fort Collins as the NB control city from Denver. But on I-70, use Utah as the WB control point from Denver, and use Topeka going east. I-76 would then use Omaha going east as it takes motorists to I-80 just after crossing into Nebraska.
Cheyenne used to be the northbound control city from Denver on I-25 due to the junction of I-25 and I-80, but nowadays Fort Collins is the control city because it's bigger than Cheyenne.
Quote from: MattHanson939 on May 14, 2021, 10:14:27 PM
QuoteI would use Santa Fe, and then use Denver north of it.
Or better, use dual Santa Fe/Denver from Albuquerque, and then just use Denver going from Santa Fe.
But why omit Colorado Springs when it's the next major city after Albuquerque going north on I-25? And it's similar to Tucson in terms of the size and population. Yes, it only has one interstate going for it, but due to its size & population, I would see no problems with using Colorado Springs as a control city from New Mexico. And if it surpasses Denver as the largest city in Colorado (i.e. if you're referring to the city proper), then it would have to be northbound control city, and then from C. Springs use Denver.
Cheyenne used to be the northbound control city from Denver on I-25 due to the junction of I-25 and I-80, but nowadays Fort Collins is the control city because it's bigger than Cheyenne.
Use Colorado Springs as a secondary north of Raton. I would sign Raton/Denver north of Santa Fe.
Quote
Use Colorado Springs as a secondary north of Raton. I would sign Raton/Denver north of Santa Fe.
IMO, signing Raton/Denver north of Santa Fe would be in a way like I-10 using Lordsburg/Phoenix from Las Cruces and using Tucson as a secondary west of Lordsburg.
Also, I'm not a fan of using podunk small towns as control cities on interstates. And Raton is smaller than Las Vegas; so maybe just use Denver going from Santa Fe.
QuoteI would use Santa Fe, and then use Denver north of it.
Going south of Albuquerque, perhaps use Las Cruces/El Paso, and once the freeway reaches the LC city limits, just use El Paso.
Quote from: MattHanson939 on May 14, 2021, 10:24:36 PM
Quote
Use Colorado Springs as a secondary north of Raton. I would sign Raton/Denver north of Santa Fe.
IMO, signing Raton/Denver north of Santa Fe would be in a way like I-10 using Lordsburg/Phoenix from Las Cruces and using Tucson as a secondary west of Lordsburg.
Also, I'm not a fan of using podunk small towns as control cities on interstates. And Raton is smaller than Las Vegas; so maybe just use Denver going from Santa Fe.
I normally like to use 2 control cities on signs.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 17, 2016, 09:44:04 AM
A couple more dumb ones in Illinois:
From I-80/94/294, the exit to IL-394 is signed as "Danville." Danville is like 2.5 hours away down IL-1. NOBODY is taking that exit so they can get all the way to Danville. Labeling a town on IL-1 is fine since IL-394 connects to IL-1, but at least understand it's being used locally for towns like Crete and Beecher. Not Danville Lol.
North of I-55/70 in Illinois, I-255 is signed as toward "Interstate 270." They used Interstate 270 as a control city.
Perhaps sign this as toward Alton/Godfrey or even just Bethalto or Roxana. But it'd be nice if we used an actual town!
The issue might be that I-255 and IL-255 are two different routes, so they don't want to put a control city on the sign unless it's actually on I-255. But maybe we could change I-255 north of I-55 into a new numbered route like I-755 (and extend it to include IL-255). Why hasn't IL-255 been upgraded to an Interstate, anyway?
I love quoting a 5 year old post...
But gotta give IDOT some more heat on this
Add I-24 WB using "Interstate 57" as its Control. The perfectly-good WB Control of St Louis, which Kentucky signs for I-24 WB in Paducah, pretty much disappears as one travels closer to St Louis and enters Southern Illinois
Why IDOT doesn't follow its standard protocol and use a Secondary City to the next Interstate junction (Marion, possibly Goreville - no one is gonna call that area Pulley's Mill) for Entrance Controls from Local Exits, and have Marion/Goreville and St Louis on Mileage signs
There is literally a mileage sign for Rend Lake on I-24 WB, but not one for either Marion/Goreville nor St Louis, in Illinois. Interstate 57 is the common, reoccuring mileage sign along 24 WB
And for the record, I have taken the IL-394 exit from the end of the Tri-State to get to IL 1 and then ultimately, Danville
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
I think Albert Lea is low-key worthless coming out of Minneapolis. Sure it's a sacred cow interstate junction, but very few people from MSP are going to be using I-35 to get somewhere along I-90 - they're going to be using US 169/MN 60 to the west, US 52 to the east, or for Austin US 218.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 19, 2021, 06:06:48 PM
I think Albert Lea is low-key worthless coming out of Minneapolis. Sure it's a sacred cow interstate junction, but very few people from MSP are going to be using I-35 to get somewhere along I-90 - they're going to be using US 169/MN 60 to the west, US 52 to the east, or for Austin US 218.
I agree, should be Des Moines.
Limon used by KDOT going west from Hays, KS. Considering you have Denver, or Burlington across the state line from Kanorado, that is off kilt for a city going west from anywhere in Kansas, especially from Hays.
I can see it being used out of Denver going eastward, due to no real good places in Eastern Colorado and Topeka and Kansas City are way too far away at that point. Being it's the first place going east, it seems appropriate in that usage, but west of Hays you even have Goodland, Oakley, and even Colby which have just as much significance as Limon. Plus its not even a major freeway junction like Benson is in NC, or even two major N-S meeting the interstate, so what significance is Limon to someone heading west across the Plains?
While not really worthless, I find it odd how Montréal is the primary control city on A-40 WB as far as Québec City when Trois-Rivières is between the two.
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
Pretty much all of I-80 east of Youngstown is full of useless controls. Dubois, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap, and Netcong come to mind. Hazleton would be too if it weren't for the 81 junction.
I never liked the fact that the same PennDOT also uses Carlisle going NB from Chambersburg, PA on I-81. Considering that is near Harrisburg, the state capital and primary city of the area, why not use that instead.
Easton, now on I-78 is the same. Considering it was used before I-78 was completed across the Delaware River when US 22 was the route connecting the two state's segment it made sense as it went through the Downtown of Easton and is at the state line. Now Easton is off to the side and for I-78 is a blip. Allentown is more useful as the freeway passes right through a good part of the suburban areas of the city's area. Plus its PA's third largest city and much more larger than Easton.
In Kentucky, you have Ashland used on I-64 with that city not even along its route. Why not use Huntington, WV which is directly on I-64 just east of where Ashland connects to the interstate via US 23.
Quote from: rschen7754 on March 14, 2016, 01:54:38 AM
Surprised "Other Desert Cities" hasn't been mentioned yet.
Also Beach Cities and Thru Traffic too.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2016, 12:13:34 PM
Well, what the hell is a Philadelphia, or what is a Chicago?
Honestly, most people driving aren't going long distances. In general, most people travel no more than about 17 minutes to get to a business, which is about 15 miles top in rural areas that requires highway driving. Along 80 in PA, Bloomsburg is probably a big destination. The vast majority of the travelers aren't going anywhere near New York, and probably aren't even leaving PA. Thus, New York would be the useless control city.
True but isn't most long distance control cities really meant for Truckers. I know Redding, Reno, South Lake Tahoe, San Francisco and Los Angeles are used as control cities in Sacramento.
There is no reason a trucker should be depending on the control city shown on a sign when determining their route. They should already have a route planned and should have knowledge of which route systems trucks are allowed on.
On I-275 in Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky are used as control cities instead of the cities along 71 and 75 (Dayton and Columbus north, Louisville and Lexington south). I don't get why they don't just use Louisville and/or Lexington for the southbound control cities, and Dayton and/or Columbus for northbound. 275's split from 74 west also uses Kentucky instead of Louisville and/or Lexington, but it uses Dayton at the split from 74 east, however, they could add Columbus for I-71 traffic.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 11, 2021, 11:18:37 PM
On I-275 in Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky are used as control cities instead of the cities along 71 and 75 (Dayton and Columbus north, Louisville and Lexington south). I don't get why they don't just use Louisville and/or Lexington for the southbound control cities, and Dayton and/or Columbus for northbound. 275's split from 74 west also uses Kentucky instead of Louisville and/or Lexington, but it uses Dayton at the split from 74 east, however, they could add Columbus for I-71 traffic.
Because I-275 is a terrible bypass for the city. I prefer how they do it now, with control routes. Like "275 east to OH 32", and "275 west to I-75" at the I-71 interchange, and the mention for the airport in the KY side.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 11, 2021, 11:18:37 PM
On I-275 in Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky are used as control cities instead of the cities along 71 and 75 (Dayton and Columbus north, Louisville and Lexington south). I don't get why they don't just use Louisville and/or Lexington for the southbound control cities, and Dayton and/or Columbus for northbound. 275's split from 74 west also uses Kentucky instead of Louisville and/or Lexington, but it uses Dayton at the split from 74 east, however, they could add Columbus for I-71 traffic.
Probably because when I-275 is going through Indiana it's only there for about four miles and has one interchange so using Ohio and Kentucky from that locale makes some sense as once you get on I-275 you will be in one of those two states when you reach the next interchange. As far as using Dayton, I-275 goes more toward the north east of it's interchange with I-74 and I-75 will connect you to Dayton which is the control city on I-75 NB. Going south Lexington might make some sense but not Louisville even though I-71 goes there.
Going to Louisville from there you could also take US-50 to US-421 to IN-62 to I-265 to I-65 to get to Louisville without having to backtrack to I-71/75.
Also, I-275 in Knoxville, Tennessee simply uses Knoxville, omitting Chattanooga, even though along I-40 and Henley Ave at its south end, it displays Lexington, Kentucky as a control city. Why not use both Knoxville and Chattanooga as control cities along 275S?
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 10:47:29 AM
Also, I-275 in Knoxville, Tennessee simply uses Knoxville, omitting Chattanooga, even though along I-40 and Henley Ave at its south end, it displays Lexington, Kentucky as a control city. Why not use both Knoxville and Chattanooga as control cities along 275S?
That one-lane ramp that you have to use to stay on I-75 south at I-640 is a bottleneck. If traffic is backed up there, and you want to continue on I-75 south to Chattanooga or points beyond, sometimes it's faster to just stay on I-275 (former I-75).
In fact, I'd be in favor of putting I-75 back on its original routing.
Like Limon CO, on US 60 east in AZ, using Globe. Who goes there?
Although newer signs have Mesa-Globe.
Being from Chicagoland, Rockford for I-355 way down by I-80 is a bit much, maybe I-88? And I think IL-394 is a road to nowhere, maybe meant to stir up suburban development back then.
And I agree having both East St. Louis and St. Louis on mileage signs is outdated. I-55 signs have them 1 mile apart.
Like Gary IN, has declined in population. While St. Louis city has declined, STL County is still prominent.
Quote from: US20IL64 on November 12, 2021, 11:01:00 AM
Like Limon CO, on US 60 east in AZ, using Globe. Who goes there?
Although newer signs have Mesa-Globe.
Being from Chicagoland, Rockford for I-355 way down by I-80 is a bit much, maybe I-88? And I think IL-394 is a road to nowhere, maybe meant to stir up suburban development back then.
And I agree having both East St. Louis and St. Louis on mileage signs is outdated. I-55 signs have them 1 mile apart.
Like Gary IN, has declined in population. While St. Louis city has declined, STL County is still prominent.
Limon is good on I-70 East from Denver, but west of Burlington Denver should be used and from Hays, Kansas west should be Goodland and Burlington west of Goodland.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on November 10, 2021, 10:06:33 PM
While not really worthless, I find it odd how Montréal is the primary control city on A-40 WB as far as Québec City when Trois-Rivières is between the two.
Yeah, Quebec seems to sign farther cities than Ontario.
For example on Highway 401, "Montreal" is only signed as a control east of Cornwall ON, while "Toronto" is only signed west of Kingston.
Meanwhile, Autoroute 20 going westbound is signed as "Toronto" in Montreal.
I-475 in Toledo, Ohio utilizes Ann Arbor, Michigan as a control city but omits Detroit completely at the split between 23 and 475 in favor of Toledo, even though I-475 is a western bypass of the latter city, so wouldn't it make sense to not omit Detroit entirely if it is a western bypass of I-75 through Toledo?
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 01:06:43 PM
I-475 in Toledo, Ohio utilizes Ann Arbor, Michigan as a control city but omits Detroit completely at the split between 23 and 475 in favor of Toledo, even though I-475 is a western bypass of the latter city, so wouldn't it make sense to not omit Detroit entirely if it is a western bypass of I-75 through Toledo?
The split between I-475 and US-23 isn't within Toledo city limits and I-475 takes you back to Toledo and ends there so using Toledo makes sense. I-475 isn't heading toward Detroit at all really between US-23 and I-75.
I-469 in Indiana has no control cities, none whatsoever, completely omitting Lansing and Indianapolis at the major junctions between US 24 and US 30. They should at least use Lansing and Indianapolis.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 10, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
Pretty much all of I-80 east of Youngstown is full of useless controls. Dubois, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap, and Netcong come to mind. Hazleton would be too if it weren't for the 81 junction.
I-94 in Michigan (west of Detroit) simply uses Detroit and Chicago at major junctions, completely omitting cities such as Ann Arbor, Jackson, Kalamazoo and Battle Creek. The other cities I mentioned should also be paired with Chicago and Detroit on the guide signs.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2021, 09:56:26 PM
Limon used by KDOT going west from Hays, KS. Considering you have Denver, or Burlington across the state line from Kanorado, that is off kilt for a city going west from anywhere in Kansas, especially from Hays.
I can see it being used out of Denver going eastward, due to no real good places in Eastern Colorado and Topeka and Kansas City are way too far away at that point. Being it's the first place going east, it seems appropriate in that usage, but west of Hays you even have Goodland, Oakley, and even Colby which have just as much significance as Limon. Plus its not even a major freeway junction like Benson is in NC, or even two major N-S meeting the interstate, so what significance is Limon to someone heading west across the Plains?
Limon, period, is a worthless control city--whether signed by KDOT or CDOT.
Quote from: Mark68 on November 12, 2021, 06:18:06 PM
Limon, period, is a worthless control city--whether signed by KDOT or CDOT.
I'm disappointed that Costa Rica doesn't have Street View except for photospheres.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 01:06:43 PM
I-475 in Toledo, Ohio utilizes Ann Arbor, Michigan as a control city but omits Detroit completely at the split between 23 and 475 in favor of Toledo, even though I-475 is a western bypass of the latter city, so wouldn't it make sense to not omit Detroit entirely if it is a western bypass of I-75 through Toledo?
Does anyone use I-475 to bypass I-75 through Toledo? If I was driving straight through to Detroit on I-75, I wouldn't.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 12, 2021, 07:44:21 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 01:06:43 PM
I-475 in Toledo, Ohio utilizes Ann Arbor, Michigan as a control city but omits Detroit completely at the split between 23 and 475 in favor of Toledo, even though I-475 is a western bypass of the latter city, so wouldn't it make sense to not omit Detroit entirely if it is a western bypass of I-75 through Toledo?
Does anyone use I-475 to bypass I-75 through Toledo? If I was driving straight through to Detroit on I-75, I wouldn't.
If headed to Ann Arbor and environs, yes.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 10, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
Pretty much all of I-80 east of Youngstown is full of useless controls. Dubois, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap, and Netcong come to mind. Hazleton would be too if it weren't for the 81 junction.
I-275 in the Cincinnati area at numerous junctions simply says Kentucky as a control city for either the clockwise or counterclockwise direction, instead of Louisville or Lexington.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 12, 2021, 07:44:21 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 01:06:43 PM
I-475 in Toledo, Ohio utilizes Ann Arbor, Michigan as a control city but omits Detroit completely at the split between 23 and 475 in favor of Toledo, even though I-475 is a western bypass of the latter city, so wouldn't it make sense to not omit Detroit entirely if it is a western bypass of I-75 through Toledo?
Does anyone use I-475 to bypass I-75 through Toledo? If I was driving straight through to Detroit on I-75, I wouldn't.
No it adds 7 more minutes and miles to your trip if you are heading to Detroit. If you are heading to Flint though it saves you 27 miles and minutes to take I-475 and US-23. Even if you are going to Holly or anywhere in that area it's still quicker to take US-23 to Grange Hall Road. For one thing if you are going north of Detroit, I-75 is a mess in Oakland County where it's been under construction for the past 5-6 years so you have to keep that in mind as well. I'd say Clarkston is about the border between taking I-75 and another route, south of Clarkston it would be quicker to take I-75 the whole way, north of Clarkston there are other routes you can use.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 10:11:31 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 10, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
Pretty much all of I-80 east of Youngstown is full of useless controls. Dubois, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap, and Netcong come to mind. Hazleton would be too if it weren't for the 81 junction.
I-275 in the Cincinnati area at numerous junctions simply says Kentucky as a control city for either the clockwise or counterclockwise direction, instead of Louisville or Lexington.
I-275 in Cincinnati is a loop it doesn't take you to either Lexington or Louisville or really even in the direction of either city.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 10:11:31 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 10, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
Pretty much all of I-80 east of Youngstown is full of useless controls. Dubois, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap, and Netcong come to mind. Hazleton would be too if it weren't for the 81 junction.
I-275 in the Cincinnati area at numerous junctions simply says Kentucky as a control city for either the clockwise or counterclockwise direction, instead of Louisville or Lexington.
Going to repost what I said about I-275 above, since it seems like you skipped past it, and why I don't like Louisville or Lexington as control cities on it.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 11, 2021, 11:20:40 PM
Because I-275 is a terrible bypass for the city. I prefer how they do it now in a portion of the highway, with control routes. Like "275 east to OH 32", and "275 west to I-75" at the I-71 interchange, and the mention for the airport in the KY side.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 13, 2021, 12:31:30 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 10:11:31 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 10, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
Pretty much all of I-80 east of Youngstown is full of useless controls. Dubois, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap, and Netcong come to mind. Hazleton would be too if it weren't for the 81 junction.
I-275 in the Cincinnati area at numerous junctions simply says Kentucky as a control city for either the clockwise or counterclockwise direction, instead of Louisville or Lexington.
Going to repost what I said about I-275 above, since it seems like you skipped past it, and why I don't like Louisville or Lexington as control cities on it.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 11, 2021, 11:20:40 PM
Because I-275 is a terrible bypass for the city. I prefer how they do it now in a portion of the highway, with control routes. Like "275 east to OH 32", and "275 west to I-75" at the I-71 interchange, and the mention for the airport in the KY side.
I-94 in Michigan west of Detroit completely ignores smaller major Michigan municipalities or those with major junctions (ignored both east and west of Detroit, i.e. I-196 in Benton Harbor, I-69 in Marshall, I-696 in Roseville-St. Clair Shores, etc.) it passes through or near on guide signs at major junctions (i.e. Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, etc.) instead opting for either Detroit or Chicago.
Quote from: Rothman on November 12, 2021, 07:59:14 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 12, 2021, 07:44:21 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 01:06:43 PM
I-475 in Toledo, Ohio utilizes Ann Arbor, Michigan as a control city but omits Detroit completely at the split between 23 and 475 in favor of Toledo, even though I-475 is a western bypass of the latter city, so wouldn't it make sense to not omit Detroit entirely if it is a western bypass of I-75 through Toledo?
Does anyone use I-475 to bypass I-75 through Toledo? If I was driving straight through to Detroit on I-75, I wouldn't.
If headed to Ann Arbor and environs, yes.
I must not have made myself clear. I was talking about if you're going to Detroit or to another destination along I-75 before it reconnects with US 23.
Quote from: Rothman on November 12, 2021, 07:59:14 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 12, 2021, 07:44:21 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 01:06:43 PM
I-475 in Toledo, Ohio utilizes Ann Arbor, Michigan as a control city but omits Detroit completely at the split between 23 and 475 in favor of Toledo, even though I-475 is a western bypass of the latter city, so wouldn't it make sense to not omit Detroit entirely if it is a western bypass of I-75 through Toledo?
Does anyone use I-475 to bypass I-75 through Toledo? If I was driving straight through to Detroit on I-75, I wouldn't.
If headed to Ann Arbor and environs, yes.
What are you talking about?
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 13, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 13, 2021, 12:31:30 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 10:11:31 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 10, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
Pretty much all of I-80 east of Youngstown is full of useless controls. Dubois, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap, and Netcong come to mind. Hazleton would be too if it weren't for the 81 junction.
I-275 in the Cincinnati area at numerous junctions simply says Kentucky as a control city for either the clockwise or counterclockwise direction, instead of Louisville or Lexington.
Going to repost what I said about I-275 above, since it seems like you skipped past it, and why I don't like Louisville or Lexington as control cities on it.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 11, 2021, 11:20:40 PM
Because I-275 is a terrible bypass for the city. I prefer how they do it now in a portion of the highway, with control routes. Like "275 east to OH 32", and "275 west to I-75" at the I-71 interchange, and the mention for the airport in the KY side.
I-94 in Michigan west of Detroit completely ignores smaller major Michigan municipalities or those with major junctions (ignored both east and west of Detroit, i.e. I-196 in Benton Harbor, I-69 in Marshall, I-696 in Roseville-St. Clair Shores, etc.) it passes through or near on guide signs at major junctions (i.e. Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, etc.) instead opting for either Detroit or Chicago.
The states choose the control cities so MDOT is the one that chooses the control cities in Michigan, ODOT does in Ohio and KYTC does in Kentucky. What Ohio and Kentucky choose to use as control cities on I-275 around Cincinnati has nothing to do with what MDOT chooses to use as control cities on I-94. Chicago is the third largest city in the country and I-94 goes through it I don't see anything wrong with using Chicago. Most traffic on I-94 is heading to either Detroit or Chicago and those cities in Michigan are used at secondary interchanges.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 11, 2021, 11:20:40 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 11, 2021, 11:18:37 PM
On I-275 in Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky are used as control cities instead of the cities along 71 and 75 (Dayton and Columbus north, Louisville and Lexington south). I don't get why they don't just use Louisville and/or Lexington for the southbound control cities, and Dayton and/or Columbus for northbound. 275's split from 74 west also uses Kentucky instead of Louisville and/or Lexington, but it uses Dayton at the split from 74 east, however, they could add Columbus for I-71 traffic.
Because I-275 is a terrible bypass for the city. I prefer how they do it now, with control routes. Like "275 east to OH 32", and "275 west to I-75" at the I-71 interchange, and the mention for the airport in the KY side.
Speaking of bypasses, the Eastern Bypass is planned as a true bypass for Cincinnati, like I-840 south of Nashville, but that's for another topic. There may already be a topic about the Cincy EB, so I won't go into full detail here.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 14, 2021, 09:44:04 AM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 13, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 13, 2021, 12:31:30 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 10:11:31 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 10, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
Pretty much all of I-80 east of Youngstown is full of useless controls. Dubois, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap, and Netcong come to mind. Hazleton would be too if it weren't for the 81 junction.
I-275 in the Cincinnati area at numerous junctions simply says Kentucky as a control city for either the clockwise or counterclockwise direction, instead of Louisville or Lexington.
Going to repost what I said about I-275 above, since it seems like you skipped past it, and why I don't like Louisville or Lexington as control cities on it.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 11, 2021, 11:20:40 PM
Because I-275 is a terrible bypass for the city. I prefer how they do it now in a portion of the highway, with control routes. Like "275 east to OH 32", and "275 west to I-75" at the I-71 interchange, and the mention for the airport in the KY side.
I-94 in Michigan west of Detroit completely ignores smaller major Michigan municipalities or those with major junctions (ignored both east and west of Detroit, i.e. I-196 in Benton Harbor, I-69 in Marshall, I-696 in Roseville-St. Clair Shores, etc.) it passes through or near on guide signs at major junctions (i.e. Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, etc.) instead opting for either Detroit or Chicago.
The states choose the control cities so MDOT is the one that chooses the control cities in Michigan, ODOT does in Ohio and KYTC does in Kentucky. What Ohio and Kentucky choose to use as control cities on I-275 around Cincinnati has nothing to do with what MDOT chooses to use as control cities on I-94. Chicago is the third largest city in the country and I-94 goes through it I don't see anything wrong with using Chicago. Most traffic on I-94 is heading to either Detroit or Chicago and those cities in Michigan are used at secondary interchanges.
Okay, I'll be willing to let 275 (OH-IN-KY) off because it passes through the states used for control cities. Also, at some point, it says Indianapolis, and I-74 goes to Indy. In Kentucky, it uses Airport, as it passes by the Cincinnati Metro region's airport. I'll let that slide. Columbus: connects via I-71. Dayton: connects via I-75.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 14, 2021, 05:33:43 PM
Speaking of bypasses, the Eastern Bypass is planned as a true bypass for Cincinnati, like I-840 south of Nashville, but that's for another topic. There may already be a topic about the Cincy EB, so I won't go into full detail here.
Not going to happen, at least on the Ohio side. ODOT dropped out of the project.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 14, 2021, 05:52:31 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 14, 2021, 05:33:43 PM
Speaking of bypasses, the Eastern Bypass is planned as a true bypass for Cincinnati, like I-840 south of Nashville, but that's for another topic. There may already be a topic about the Cincy EB, so I won't go into full detail here.
Not going to happen, at least on the Ohio side. ODOT dropped out of the project.
They've invested $2B to maintain existing infrastructure, so I'm not surprised there, considering their attitude towards I-73's designation and construction, and I'm not even sure the Eastern Corridor will ever be finished, if it's even started, but that's for another topic, so I won't dive too deep into it here.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 14, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 14, 2021, 09:44:04 AM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 13, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 13, 2021, 12:31:30 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 12, 2021, 10:11:31 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 10, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
Pretty much all of I-80 east of Youngstown is full of useless controls. Dubois, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap, and Netcong come to mind. Hazleton would be too if it weren't for the 81 junction.
I-275 in the Cincinnati area at numerous junctions simply says Kentucky as a control city for either the clockwise or counterclockwise direction, instead of Louisville or Lexington.
Going to repost what I said about I-275 above, since it seems like you skipped past it, and why I don't like Louisville or Lexington as control cities on it.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 11, 2021, 11:20:40 PM
Because I-275 is a terrible bypass for the city. I prefer how they do it now in a portion of the highway, with control routes. Like "275 east to OH 32", and "275 west to I-75" at the I-71 interchange, and the mention for the airport in the KY side.
I-94 in Michigan west of Detroit completely ignores smaller major Michigan municipalities or those with major junctions (ignored both east and west of Detroit, i.e. I-196 in Benton Harbor, I-69 in Marshall, I-696 in Roseville-St. Clair Shores, etc.) it passes through or near on guide signs at major junctions (i.e. Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, etc.) instead opting for either Detroit or Chicago.
The states choose the control cities so MDOT is the one that chooses the control cities in Michigan, ODOT does in Ohio and KYTC does in Kentucky. What Ohio and Kentucky choose to use as control cities on I-275 around Cincinnati has nothing to do with what MDOT chooses to use as control cities on I-94. Chicago is the third largest city in the country and I-94 goes through it I don't see anything wrong with using Chicago. Most traffic on I-94 is heading to either Detroit or Chicago and those cities in Michigan are used at secondary interchanges.
Okay, I'll be willing to let 275 (OH-IN-KY) off because it passes through the states used for control cities. Also, at some point, it says Indianapolis, and I-74 goes to Indy. In Kentucky, it uses Airport, as it passes by the Cincinnati Metro region's airport. I'll let that slide. Columbus: connects via I-71. Dayton: connects via I-75.
The whole point is to guide people in the direction they are going. Where I-275 slips through Indiana there is only one interchange there and if you get on I-275 you are either going to be in Kentucky or Ohio by the time you reach the next interchange so that isn't a bad choice at all for control cities. Personally I look for the exit numbers when I'm getting off at an exit.
The area where it says Indianapolis is on the stretch where I-74 is running concurrent so it has more to do with where I-74 is leading you than where I-275 is leading you as most people are going to figure the route number 275 is a beltway or bypass which will connect you with I-75 at least at once. Using the Airport as a control city is a good choice as I-275 travels past the Airport. Honestly I think the choices that ODOT and KYTC have made have more to do with using control cities on routes that branch off I-275 such as Dayton, Columbus and Indianapolis, not so much Lexington. Louisville wouldn't make much sense even though I-71 goes there. That is up to KYTC at that point and I wouldn't be sure on the reason why they don't at least use Lexington.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 14, 2021, 05:52:31 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 14, 2021, 05:33:43 PM
Speaking of bypasses, the Eastern Bypass is planned as a true bypass for Cincinnati, like I-840 south of Nashville, but that's for another topic. There may already be a topic about the Cincy EB, so I won't go into full detail here.
Not going to happen, at least on the Ohio side. ODOT dropped out of the project.
It seems like ODOT is about in the same category as MDOT as regarding building new Interstate's. I believe MDOT is completely done building any new Interstate's and ODOT seems to be there too. If you think about it though each state is pretty much set with Interstate's and don't have many areas that needs new ones. In areas where freeways are needed a US route or State highway can easily be upgraded to Interstate standards but won't be Interstate highways.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 14, 2021, 08:09:56 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 14, 2021, 05:52:31 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 14, 2021, 05:33:43 PM
Speaking of bypasses, the Eastern Bypass is planned as a true bypass for Cincinnati, like I-840 south of Nashville, but that's for another topic. There may already be a topic about the Cincy EB, so I won't go into full detail here.
Not going to happen, at least on the Ohio side. ODOT dropped out of the project.
It seems like ODOT is about in the same category as MDOT as regarding building new Interstate's. I believe MDOT is completely done building any new Interstate's and ODOT seems to be there too. If you think about it though each state is pretty much set with Interstate's and don't have many areas that needs new ones. In areas where freeways are needed a US route or State highway can easily be upgraded to Interstate standards but won't be Interstate highways.
I believe MDOT is still trying to connect the St. Joseph Valley Parkway to I-94 on a different route after the first route was canned for passing through a butterfly habitat. The parkway currently dead ends at Napier Ave, and Hwy. 31 traffic northbound is forced to exit there to get to I-94 due to the freeway dead ending. But the parkway's north end is a topic for the Midwest forum.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 10, 2021, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
Sharon, PA on I-80 is barely a blip. Should really be Youngstown, OH
Pretty much all of I-80 east of Youngstown is full of useless controls. Dubois, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap, and Netcong come to mind. Hazleton would be too if it weren't for the 81 junction.
I never found those PA control cities helpful because I'm not familiar with them or where they are - but it just occurred to me that they are all (or were) US highway junctions.
Quote from: Mark68 on November 12, 2021, 06:18:06 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2021, 09:56:26 PM
Limon used by KDOT going west from Hays, KS. Considering you have Denver, or Burlington across the state line from Kanorado, that is off kilt for a city going west from anywhere in Kansas, especially from Hays.
I can see it being used out of Denver going eastward, due to no real good places in Eastern Colorado and Topeka and Kansas City are way too far away at that point. Being it's the first place going east, it seems appropriate in that usage, but west of Hays you even have Goodland, Oakley, and even Colby which have just as much significance as Limon. Plus its not even a major freeway junction like Benson is in NC, or even two major N-S meeting the interstate, so what significance is Limon to someone heading west across the Plains?
Limon, period, is a worthless control city--whether signed by KDOT or CDOT.
limon is something of a junction of several roads, and really the only town of any consequence on i-70 in that area. there's also a state correctional facility, and a few other doodads there. for that matter, there's one in burlington too. nothing in eastern colo is much of anything, but there has to be 'something' there...
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 13, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
I-94 in Michigan west of Detroit completely ignores smaller major Michigan municipalities or those with major junctions (ignored both east and west of Detroit, i.e. I-196 in Benton Harbor, I-69 in Marshall, I-696 in Roseville-St. Clair Shores, etc.) it passes through or near on guide signs at major junctions (i.e. Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, etc.) instead opting for either Detroit or Chicago.
Actually, signage at most I-94 interchanges between Marshall and Ann Arbor shows Marshall, Jackson, and Ann Arbor as control cities.
(https://i.imgur.com/OVpxQbs.jpg)
Jackson Road, near Chelsea -- this sign has since been replaced but the control cities have not changed.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2021, 09:56:26 PM
Limon used by KDOT going west from Hays, KS. Considering you have Denver, or Burlington across the state line from Kanorado, that is off kilt for a city going west from anywhere in Kansas, especially from Hays.
I can see it being used out of Denver going eastward, due to no real good places in Eastern Colorado and Topeka and Kansas City are way too far away at that point. Being it's the first place going east, it seems appropriate in that usage, but west of Hays you even have Goodland, Oakley, and even Colby which have just as much significance as Limon. Plus its not even a major freeway junction like Benson is in NC, or even two major N-S meeting the interstate, so what significance is Limon to someone heading west across the Plains?
The point where someone heading towards Colorado Springs or Pueblo would get off I-70 and follow US 24? Not the Colorado appears to do a good job of signing US 24 (https://goo.gl/maps/dYvq3VTpopMYmMUJA) - I see other states having Exit 359 signed as "To US 24 West/Colorado Springs" rather than another "Limon" exit.
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 15, 2021, 10:27:14 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2021, 09:56:26 PM
Limon used by KDOT going west from Hays, KS. Considering you have Denver, or Burlington across the state line from Kanorado, that is off kilt for a city going west from anywhere in Kansas, especially from Hays.
I can see it being used out of Denver going eastward, due to no real good places in Eastern Colorado and Topeka and Kansas City are way too far away at that point. Being it's the first place going east, it seems appropriate in that usage, but west of Hays you even have Goodland, Oakley, and even Colby which have just as much significance as Limon. Plus its not even a major freeway junction like Benson is in NC, or even two major N-S meeting the interstate, so what significance is Limon to someone heading west across the Plains?
The point where someone heading towards Colorado Springs or Pueblo would get off I-70 and follow US 24? Not the Colorado appears to do a good job of signing US 24 (https://goo.gl/maps/dYvq3VTpopMYmMUJA) - I see other states having Exit 359 signed as "To US 24 West/Colorado Springs" rather than another "Limon" exit.
If you go back a bit, you'll find a sign saying exactly that:
https://goo.gl/maps/khcxsmEvaCtJpxFZA
Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 15, 2021, 09:55:02 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 13, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
I-94 in Michigan west of Detroit completely ignores smaller major Michigan municipalities or those with major junctions (ignored both east and west of Detroit, i.e. I-196 in Benton Harbor, I-69 in Marshall, I-696 in Roseville-St. Clair Shores, etc.) it passes through or near on guide signs at major junctions (i.e. Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, etc.) instead opting for either Detroit or Chicago.
Actually, signage at most I-94 interchanges between Marshall and Ann Arbor shows Marshall, Jackson, and Ann Arbor as control cities.
(https://i.imgur.com/OVpxQbs.jpg)
Jackson Road, near Chelsea -- this sign has since been replaced but the control cities have not changed.
Marshall and Ann Arbor are omitted on 94 guide signs at Highway 127 Exit 40 and 43. Jackson is omitted on guide signs for I-94 along US 23. Along I-194/M-66 in Battle Creek, Marshall is omitted for I-94 eastbound. At I-69's first junction with I-94, Jackson is omitted for eastbound I-94.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 15, 2021, 10:55:09 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 15, 2021, 09:55:02 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 13, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
I-94 in Michigan west of Detroit completely ignores smaller major Michigan municipalities or those with major junctions (ignored both east and west of Detroit, i.e. I-196 in Benton Harbor, I-69 in Marshall, I-696 in Roseville-St. Clair Shores, etc.) it passes through or near on guide signs at major junctions (i.e. Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, etc.) instead opting for either Detroit or Chicago.
Actually, signage at most I-94 interchanges between Marshall and Ann Arbor shows Marshall, Jackson, and Ann Arbor as control cities.
(https://i.imgur.com/OVpxQbs.jpg)
Jackson Road, near Chelsea -- this sign has since been replaced but the control cities have not changed.
Marshall and Ann Arbor are omitted on 94 guide signs at Highway 127 Exit 40 and 43. Jackson is omitted on guide signs for I-94 along US 23. Along I-194/M-66 in Battle Creek, Marshall is omitted for I-94 eastbound. At I-69's first junction with I-94, Jackson is omitted for eastbound I-94.
I said at
most interchanges. Great job missing my point.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 15, 2021, 10:55:09 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 15, 2021, 09:55:02 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 13, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
I-94 in Michigan west of Detroit completely ignores smaller major Michigan municipalities or those with major junctions (ignored both east and west of Detroit, i.e. I-196 in Benton Harbor, I-69 in Marshall, I-696 in Roseville-St. Clair Shores, etc.) it passes through or near on guide signs at major junctions (i.e. Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, etc.) instead opting for either Detroit or Chicago.
Actually, signage at most I-94 interchanges between Marshall and Ann Arbor shows Marshall, Jackson, and Ann Arbor as control cities.
(https://i.imgur.com/OVpxQbs.jpg)
Jackson Road, near Chelsea -- this sign has since been replaced but the control cities have not changed.
Marshall and Ann Arbor are omitted on 94 guide signs at Highway 127 Exit 40 and 43. Jackson is omitted on guide signs for I-94 along US 23. Along I-194/M-66 in Battle Creek, Marshall is omitted for I-94 eastbound. At I-69's first junction with I-94, Jackson is omitted for eastbound I-94.
That's because those are major interchanges where Chicago and Detroit are used. Major interchanges are going to have more traffic heading to those cities compared to secondary interchanges.
Limon (and the other smaller cities along I-70 between Topeka and Denver) were exhaustively discussed on another thread.
And as usual, the people saying "Limon" likely haven't driven through that area regularly.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on November 16, 2021, 01:24:35 PM
And as usual, the people saying "Limon" likely haven't driven through that area regularly.
Or at all. I changed my tune on Limon real quick when I visited Hays a couple of weeks ago.
Most of the discussion of control cities on this forum focuses on directional signage (i.e. route XX direction, control city name [e.g. I-70 east, Limon]) but I think some of y'all overlook the role that control cities have for mileage/distance signs (e.g. Limon 65 miles).
Considering that one of the uses of control cities is for distance signs, I'm generally in favor of using larger cities/urban areas as control cities. Instead of knowing that it is 65 miles to Limon, it would be a lot more useful to know the distance to Wichita or even Kansas City.
I'm more familiar with I-81 in Virginia and I dislike the use of Winchester, etc as the control city on distance signs, I'd rather see e.g. Richmond (nb until I-64), Washington (nb until I-66), then Harrisburg PA (I have less of an issue with the SB cities although I think Charlotte NC should be used south of Roanoke until I-77).
Quote from: ran4sh on November 19, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
I'm more familiar with I-81 in Virginia and I dislike the use of Winchester, etc as the control city on distance signs, I'd rather see e.g. Richmond (nb until I-64), Washington (nb until I-66), then Harrisburg PA (I have less of an issue with the SB cities although I think Charlotte NC should be used south of Roanoke until I-77).
I-81 is an Interstate that goes to the Canadian border on the north end and to I-40 in Tennessee on the south end. Why would you use Richmond and Washington as control cities on I-81 when I-81 goes nowhere near those cities? Winchester is fine as a control city on I-81 and much better than Richmond or Washington.
Because the Interstate system is a *system* and selection of control cities should not be isolated on a per-route basis. The general idea is that if much of the traffic on a given segment of road is going to a given location, it is appropriate to designate that location as a control city for the route.
(Never mind that, nb going past Roanoke, it's a short distance to the I-64 overlap, at which point the control city of Richmond is completely in compliance with your arbitrary rule about being on the route itself.)
Quote from: ran4sh on November 19, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
Most of the discussion of control cities on this forum focuses on directional signage (i.e. route XX direction, control city name [e.g. I-70 east, Limon]) but I think some of y'all overlook the role that control cities have for mileage/distance signs (e.g. Limon 65 miles).
Considering that one of the uses of control cities is for distance signs, I'm generally in favor of using larger cities/urban areas as control cities. Instead of knowing that it is 65 miles to Limon, it would be a lot more useful to know the distance to Wichita or even Kansas City.
I'm more familiar with I-81 in Virginia and I dislike the use of Winchester, etc as the control city on distance signs, I'd rather see e.g. Richmond (nb until I-64), Washington (nb until I-66), then Harrisburg PA (I have less of an issue with the SB cities although I think Charlotte NC should be used south of Roanoke until I-77).
Why should the city on directional signage have to match the one on the bottom line of distance signs?
I don't necessarily think they should, but those are what is specified as the uses of control cities.
To clarify, the MUTCD specifies those uses in 2E.13 , and the list of control cities is published by AASHTO without any distinction that some cities are for directional signage while others are for distance signage, which implies that those cities should be used for both.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on November 16, 2021, 01:24:35 PM
And as usual, the people saying "Limon" likely haven't driven through that area regularly.
That's the point. Anybody heading east of Denver on I-70 (and every highway on the east side of Denver Metro--I-270, I-225, E-470--points to Limon) is not going TO Limon. Cross-country travelers are going toward Salina, Wichita, Topeka, KC or points east. Why not just say "I-70 East--Kansas City" or at least Topeka? And westbound I-70 in Kansas, why not have Denver (or even Denver/Colorado Springs due to US 24) as the control city(ies)?
I mean, I get that it's an important highway junction--but it was probably more important before the advent of I-70, since it was the crossroads of three fairly important US routes. And I also get that there is nothing else east of Denver or west of (I guess) Salina. But nobody is going to point to Limon as a major stopping point or destination.
No offense to any Limonians on this thread...
Going to venture a guess that most people who live in Roanoke (Roanokans?) use US 460 and US 360 with the short state route cutoff to get to Richmond instead of going all the way north to Staunton and then southeast on I-64.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 19, 2021, 07:28:20 PM
Going to venture a guess that most people who live in Roanoke (Roanokans?) use US 460 and US 360 with the short state route cutoff to get to Richmond instead of going all the way north to Staunton and then southeast on I-64.
It's about 10 minutes quicker to take I-81 to I-64 but taking US-460 and US-360 takes off about 25 miles. I think if I'm going to save 25 miles I'll suck up the 10 extra minutes and not worry about it.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 19, 2021, 03:32:42 PM
Because the Interstate system is a *system* and selection of control cities should not be isolated on a per-route basis. The general idea is that if much of the traffic on a given segment of road is going to a given location, it is appropriate to designate that location as a control city for the route.
(Never mind that, nb going past Roanoke, it's a short distance to the I-64 overlap, at which point the control city of Richmond is completely in compliance with your arbitrary rule about being on the route itself.)
I don't think the majority of traffic on I-81 is even going to Richmond and if they are they will use I-64 which uses Richmond as a control city to get there. Richmond is over 100 miles from I-81 and Washington is over 70 miles from I-81 it makes no sense to use either city.
Virginia should use Bristol, Roanoke, Harrisonburg, Winchester and Hagerstown on I-81
Quote from: ran4sh on November 19, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
Instead of knowing that it is 65 miles to Limon, it would be a lot more useful to know the distance to Wichita or even Kansas City.
Good luck getting to Kansas City without stopping in Limon or Hays. Maybe if you brought sandwiches and a hundred-gallon gas tank.
I believe I mentioned this in some other control city thread, but my opinion is that most motorists don't need control city designations to determine where to stop along the way for services. In the above example, they'll see that it is hundreds of miles to Wichita and know that they'll have to stop elsewhere, while still being informed how far it is to Wichita.
I-70 doesn't go through Wichita...
Seriously, man, before you stick with the opinion you have on this, you need to go to Google maps and spend a good 15 minutes or so looking at the corridor you're talking about. Measure some distances, drop a GSV pin and take a close look at the "elsewhere" you think might be a place you can stop.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 20, 2021, 03:08:09 AM
I believe I mentioned this in some other control city thread, but my opinion is that most motorists don't need control city designations to determine where to stop along the way for services. In the above example, they'll see that it is hundreds of miles to Wichita and know that they'll have to stop elsewhere, while still being informed how far it is to Wichita.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2021, 02:20:05 PM
I-70 doesn't go through Wichita...
Seriously, man, before you stick with the opinion you have on this, you need to go to Google maps and spend a good 15 minutes or so looking at the corridor you're talking about. Measure some distances, drop a GSV pin and take a close look at the "elsewhere" you think might be a place you can stop.
Specific examples notwithstanding, I think ran4sh's point still stands. I can't think of any reason why the need or availability of places to take a rest stop should affect control city choice, whether or not these places are thin on the ground.
I mentioned earlier that Louisiana still uses Bay St. Louis as the control city on I-10 east from Slidell. I'm beginning to wonder if DOTD just hasn't bothered to rethink its control cities in light of the existence of the interstates. I nominate these two candidates in Baton Rouge for Most Worthless Control City: New Orleans for US 61 South (https://goo.gl/maps/swCRqoRpUnVnbqfs9) and Hammond for US 190 East (https://goo.gl/maps/ey8NfRKjdMLFY2mk9). C'mon, DOTD, people going to New Orleans or Hammond aren't taking US 61 and US 190 any more. US 61 South should use Prairieville or Gonzales and US 190 East should use Denham Springs.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2021, 02:20:05 PM
I-70 doesn't go through Wichita...
Seriously, man, before you stick with the opinion you have on this, you need to go to Google maps and spend a good 15 minutes or so looking at the corridor you're talking about. Measure some distances, drop a GSV pin and take a close look at the "elsewhere" you think might be a place you can stop.
He suggested earlier that Virginia uses Richmond and Washington for control cities on I-81.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2021, 02:20:05 PM
I-70 doesn't go through Wichita...
Seriously, man, before you stick with the opinion you have on this, you need to go to Google maps and spend a good 15 minutes or so looking at the corridor you're talking about. Measure some distances, drop a GSV pin and take a close look at the "elsewhere" you think might be a place you can stop.
It doesn't have to. Even in my own state of Georgia, I think the ideal control cities for I-75 south of Macon are cities which the route itself does not reach, such as Albany, Tallahassee FL, Jacksonville FL (and then Gainesville or Tampa/Orlando once past I-10 in FL).
I-70 misses Wichita by 95 miles...
I don't have the traffic counts for how much traffic turns onto I-135 versus continuing on I-70 east, but if the use of Wichita were really that much of a problem, then the alternatives would be Topeka or Kansas City. It's a lot more useful to have signs indicating the distance to those places rather than to those small towns that most people only stop at for gas/food/etc.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 19, 2021, 07:42:33 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 19, 2021, 07:28:20 PM
Going to venture a guess that most people who live in Roanoke (Roanokans?) use US 460 and US 360 with the short state route cutoff to get to Richmond instead of going all the way north to Staunton and then southeast on I-64.
It's about 10 minutes quicker to take I-81 to I-64 but taking US-460 and US-360 takes off about 25 miles. I think if I'm going to save 25 miles I'll suck up the 10 extra minutes and not worry about it.
If you're coming directly from Roanoke, perhaps, but if you're already on I-81 southwest of Roanoke, you're likely just going to stay on I-81 and connect with I-64 at Staunton, instead of leaving the system.
Quote from: sprjus4 on November 21, 2021, 02:19:07 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 19, 2021, 07:42:33 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 19, 2021, 07:28:20 PM
Going to venture a guess that most people who live in Roanoke (Roanokans?) use US 460 and US 360 with the short state route cutoff to get to Richmond instead of going all the way north to Staunton and then southeast on I-64.
It's about 10 minutes quicker to take I-81 to I-64 but taking US-460 and US-360 takes off about 25 miles. I think if I'm going to save 25 miles I'll suck up the 10 extra minutes and not worry about it.
If you're coming directly from Roanoke, perhaps, but if you're already on I-81 southwest of Roanoke, you're likely just going to stay on I-81 and connect with I-64 at Staunton, instead of leaving the system.
Well it makes sense since you will be on an Interstate the entire way. I tried a few different routes and when I got to Webster, VA which is just a little northeast of Roanoke it tells you it's quicker to take US-460 to US-360 with the shortcut state highway (VA-307) in between. From there it looks like all ways are about the same time so I'd go by distance if that was the case.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 02:01:28 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2021, 02:20:05 PM
I-70 doesn't go through Wichita...
Seriously, man, before you stick with the opinion you have on this, you need to go to Google maps and spend a good 15 minutes or so looking at the corridor you're talking about. Measure some distances, drop a GSV pin and take a close look at the "elsewhere" you think might be a place you can stop.
It doesn't have to. Even in my own state of Georgia, I think the ideal control cities for I-75 south of Macon are cities which the route itself does not reach, such as Albany, Tallahassee FL, Jacksonville FL (and then Gainesville or Tampa/Orlando once past I-10 in FL).
I'm someone who has traveled I-75 several times in my life as I have traveled between Michigan and Florida as well as having the entire Interstate clinched including the stretch through Macon which I purposely clinched since I-475 would be the through route I wouldn't have clinched that stretch otherwise.
But anyway, I-75 has none of those cities as control cities and those are not ideal control cities for I-75. From Sault Ste. Marie to Miami the control cities are/should be in this order:
St. Ignace at the International Bridge, then Mackinac Bridge takes over, then after that Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Tifton, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Naples, Miami. Why would you use Albany, Tallahassee and Jacksonville when I-75 takes you to none of those cities?
Quote from: Mark68 on November 19, 2021, 06:55:41 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on November 16, 2021, 01:24:35 PM
And as usual, the people saying "Limon" likely haven't driven through that area regularly.
That's the point. Anybody heading east of Denver on I-70 (and every highway on the east side of Denver Metro--I-270, I-225, E-470--points to Limon) is not going TO Limon. Cross-country travelers are going toward Salina, Wichita, Topeka, KC or points east. Why not just say "I-70 East--Kansas City" or at least Topeka? And westbound I-70 in Kansas, why not have Denver (or even Denver/Colorado Springs due to US 24) as the control city(ies)?
I mean, I get that it's an important highway junction--but it was probably more important before the advent of I-70, since it was the crossroads of three fairly important US routes. And I also get that there is nothing else east of Denver or west of (I guess) Salina. But nobody is going to point to Limon as a major stopping point or destination.
No offense to any Limonians on this thread...
Eastbound from CS and Pueblo are going to take you through Limon to get to I-70. There is a considerable amount of southeast-bound truck traffic that diverts at Limon to avoid Raton Pass.
Control cities don't exist to list "important places" - they're to aid navigation, particularly for logistics purposes. Limon is small, but it is very important for navigation in Eastern Colorado if you're not taking I-70 to Denver, especially since there are few other landmarks on the High Plains.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:38:35 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 02:01:28 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2021, 02:20:05 PM
I-70 doesn't go through Wichita...
Seriously, man, before you stick with the opinion you have on this, you need to go to Google maps and spend a good 15 minutes or so looking at the corridor you're talking about. Measure some distances, drop a GSV pin and take a close look at the "elsewhere" you think might be a place you can stop.
It doesn't have to. Even in my own state of Georgia, I think the ideal control cities for I-75 south of Macon are cities which the route itself does not reach, such as Albany, Tallahassee FL, Jacksonville FL (and then Gainesville or Tampa/Orlando once past I-10 in FL).
I'm someone who has traveled I-75 several times in my life as I have traveled between Michigan and Florida as well as having the entire Interstate clinched including the stretch through Macon which I purposely clinched since I-475 would be the through route I wouldn't have clinched that stretch otherwise.
But anyway, I-75 has none of those cities as control cities and those are not ideal control cities for I-75. From Sault Ste. Marie to Miami the control cities are/should be in this order:
St. Ignace at the International Bridge, then Mackinac Bridge takes over, then after that Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Tifton, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Naples, Miami. Why would you use Albany, Tallahassee and Jacksonville when I-75 takes you to none of those cities?
Georgia doesn't even use Tifton as a control city, so I have no idea why you would want to add it. Albany is certainly more important despite not being on the route.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on November 21, 2021, 10:49:45 AM
Quote from: Mark68 on November 19, 2021, 06:55:41 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on November 16, 2021, 01:24:35 PM
And as usual, the people saying "Limon" likely haven't driven through that area regularly.
That's the point. Anybody heading east of Denver on I-70 (and every highway on the east side of Denver Metro--I-270, I-225, E-470--points to Limon) is not going TO Limon. Cross-country travelers are going toward Salina, Wichita, Topeka, KC or points east. Why not just say "I-70 East--Kansas City" or at least Topeka? And westbound I-70 in Kansas, why not have Denver (or even Denver/Colorado Springs due to US 24) as the control city(ies)?
I mean, I get that it's an important highway junction--but it was probably more important before the advent of I-70, since it was the crossroads of three fairly important US routes. And I also get that there is nothing else east of Denver or west of (I guess) Salina. But nobody is going to point to Limon as a major stopping point or destination.
No offense to any Limonians on this thread...
Eastbound from CS and Pueblo are going to take you through Limon to get to I-70. There is a considerable amount of southeast-bound truck traffic that diverts at Limon to avoid Raton Pass.
Control cities don't exist to list "important places" - they're to aid navigation, particularly for logistics purposes. Limon is small, but it is very important for navigation in Eastern Colorado if you're not taking I-70 to Denver, especially since there are few other landmarks on the High Plains.
What kind of logistics are we referring to? Truck drivers should have a pre-planned route and not be depending on control city signage as opposed to route signage.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 12:14:54 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:38:35 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 02:01:28 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2021, 02:20:05 PM
I-70 doesn't go through Wichita...
Seriously, man, before you stick with the opinion you have on this, you need to go to Google maps and spend a good 15 minutes or so looking at the corridor you're talking about. Measure some distances, drop a GSV pin and take a close look at the "elsewhere" you think might be a place you can stop.
It doesn't have to. Even in my own state of Georgia, I think the ideal control cities for I-75 south of Macon are cities which the route itself does not reach, such as Albany, Tallahassee FL, Jacksonville FL (and then Gainesville or Tampa/Orlando once past I-10 in FL).
I'm someone who has traveled I-75 several times in my life as I have traveled between Michigan and Florida as well as having the entire Interstate clinched including the stretch through Macon which I purposely clinched since I-475 would be the through route I wouldn't have clinched that stretch otherwise.
But anyway, I-75 has none of those cities as control cities and those are not ideal control cities for I-75. From Sault Ste. Marie to Miami the control cities are/should be in this order:
St. Ignace at the International Bridge, then Mackinac Bridge takes over, then after that Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Tifton, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Naples, Miami. Why would you use Albany, Tallahassee and Jacksonville when I-75 takes you to none of those cities?
Georgia doesn't even use Tifton as a control city, so I have no idea why you would want to add it. Albany is certainly more important despite not being on the route.
Where did I say that they do use Tifton? And how exactly is Albany a better control city on I-75 than Tifton? I-75 actually goes through Tifton, it does not go through or even lead you to Albany. You are telling me you have no idea why I would want to add a city that is actually on the Interstate when you suggest that a city that is 40 miles west of it should be a control city?
Why are you suggesting control cities that aren't even on the route? Like you suggest the other day that Virginia should use Richmond and Washington on I-81 and then suggested that Wichita be added as a control city on I-70.
I'm surprised that no one is complaining about Ohio using Atlanta and Tampa on distance signs between Toledo and Bowling Green.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:21:00 PM
I'm surprised that no one is complaining about Ohio using Atlanta and Tampa on distance signs between Toledo and Bowling Green.
They're using Lexington too.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 21, 2021, 05:03:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:21:00 PM
I'm surprised that no one is complaining about Ohio using Atlanta and Tampa on distance signs between Toledo and Bowling Green.
They're using Lexington too.
Those are just novelties. I've read news stories on those (the links probably have been shared here before).
Where is the rule that a control city must be on the route? One would think that on a roadgeek forum we would understand that no such rule exists (otherwise there would be numerous bypasses, beltways, etc that would have to change their control cities).
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:18:49 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 12:14:54 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:38:35 AM
But anyway, I-75 has none of those cities as control cities and those are not ideal control cities for I-75. From Sault Ste. Marie to Miami the control cities are/should be in this order:
St. Ignace at the International Bridge, then Mackinac Bridge takes over, then after that Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Tifton, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Naples, Miami. Why would you use Albany, Tallahassee and Jacksonville when I-75 takes you to none of those cities?
Georgia doesn't even use Tifton as a control city, so I have no idea why you would want to add it. Albany is certainly more important despite not being on the route.
Where did I say that they do use Tifton? And how exactly is Albany a better control city on I-75 than Tifton? I-75 actually goes through Tifton, it does not go through or even lead you to Albany. You are telling me you have no idea why I would want to add a city that is actually on the Interstate when you suggest that a city that is 40 miles west of it should be a control city?
Why are you suggesting control cities that aren't even on the route? Like you suggest the other day that Virginia should use Richmond and Washington on I-81 and then suggested that Wichita be added as a control city on I-70.
You sidestepped the question. You acknowledge that Georgia doesn't use Tifton, and you suggest that Tifton should be used, so the clearly implied question is *why*? Is the existing usage of Macon and Valdosta not good enough for you?
With ran4sh's logic, even if I-70 doesn't go to Baltimore, it can still be signed for Baltimore. One huge problem solved.
More importantly, the mileage to Baltimore (and Washington) starts being signed on I-70 east of Pittsburgh (I'm not sure what the existing control city for that route is)
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 21, 2021, 05:03:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:21:00 PM
I'm surprised that no one is complaining about Ohio using Atlanta and Tampa on distance signs between Toledo and Bowling Green.
They're using Lexington too.
Lexington makes some sense. It's only 100 miles or so south of Cincinnati. I actually like it though I never realized that Cincinnati and Atlanta were as far apart as they are.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 06:33:52 PM
More importantly, the mileage to Baltimore (and Washington) starts being signed on I-70 east of Pittsburgh (I'm not sure what the existing control city for that route is)
I-70 doesn't go through Pittsburgh it goes from Washington to New Stantion. New Stanton is the control city west of there and east of there it's on the PA Turnpike with I-76 which has Harrisburg as the control city. When it splits in Breezewood I-70 uses Washington, DC (since there is a Washington, PA also on I-70 and used as a control city west of New Stanton) and Baltimore.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 06:28:49 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:18:49 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 12:14:54 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:38:35 AM
But anyway, I-75 has none of those cities as control cities and those are not ideal control cities for I-75. From Sault Ste. Marie to Miami the control cities are/should be in this order:
St. Ignace at the International Bridge, then Mackinac Bridge takes over, then after that Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Tifton, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Naples, Miami. Why would you use Albany, Tallahassee and Jacksonville when I-75 takes you to none of those cities?
Georgia doesn't even use Tifton as a control city, so I have no idea why you would want to add it. Albany is certainly more important despite not being on the route.
Where did I say that they do use Tifton? And how exactly is Albany a better control city on I-75 than Tifton? I-75 actually goes through Tifton, it does not go through or even lead you to Albany. You are telling me you have no idea why I would want to add a city that is actually on the Interstate when you suggest that a city that is 40 miles west of it should be a control city?
Why are you suggesting control cities that aren't even on the route? Like you suggest the other day that Virginia should use Richmond and Washington on I-81 and then suggested that Wichita be added as a control city on I-70.
You sidestepped the question. You acknowledge that Georgia doesn't use Tifton, and you suggest that Tifton should be used, so the clearly implied question is *why*? Is the existing usage of Macon and Valdosta not good enough for you?
What do you mean good enough for me? What's wrong with using Tifton as a control city? You want to use Albany which isn't even on the route. Why would you use a control city that isn't on the route? What sense does that make?
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 02:01:28 AM
Even in my own state of Georgia, I think the ideal control cities for I-75 south of Macon are cities ... such as Tallahassee FL, Jacksonville FL.
Dude.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 07:12:33 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 21, 2021, 05:03:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:21:00 PM
I'm surprised that no one is complaining about Ohio using Atlanta and Tampa on distance signs between Toledo and Bowling Green.
They're using Lexington too.
Lexington makes some sense. It's only 100 miles or so south of Cincinnati. I actually like it though I never realized that Cincinnati and Atlanta were as far apart as they are.
Dayton is also on there, and it's far closer. However, for northbound, if they go with Atlanta and Tampa southbound, I'm surprised they didn't just put Flint, Saginaw and Detroit on northbound distance signs and after that call it a day (after the northbound signs) after using Atlanta and Tampa southbound.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 21, 2021, 05:29:34 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 21, 2021, 05:03:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:21:00 PM
I'm surprised that no one is complaining about Ohio using Atlanta and Tampa on distance signs between Toledo and Bowling Green.
They're using Lexington too.
Those are just novelties. I've read news stories on those (the links probably have been shared here before).
On Interstate 65 near Bowling Green, the distance sign shows Scottsville, even though you have to exit off at exits 6, 20, 22, 26 or 38 and use at least one other highway (two highways if you exit off at 20 or 26) to get there.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 22, 2021, 01:21:03 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 07:12:33 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 21, 2021, 05:03:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:21:00 PM
I'm surprised that no one is complaining about Ohio using Atlanta and Tampa on distance signs between Toledo and Bowling Green.
They're using Lexington too.
Lexington makes some sense. It's only 100 miles or so south of Cincinnati. I actually like it though I never realized that Cincinnati and Atlanta were as far apart as they are.
Dayton is also on there, and it's far closer. However, for northbound, if they go with Atlanta and Tampa southbound, I'm surprised they didn't just put Flint, Saginaw and Detroit on northbound distance signs and after that call it a day (after the northbound signs) after using Atlanta and Tampa southbound.
I know for one they use Rossford which is a Toledo suburb and Toledo.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 12:16:40 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on November 21, 2021, 10:49:45 AM
Quote from: Mark68 on November 19, 2021, 06:55:41 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on November 16, 2021, 01:24:35 PM
And as usual, the people saying "Limon" likely haven't driven through that area regularly.
That's the point. Anybody heading east of Denver on I-70 (and every highway on the east side of Denver Metro--I-270, I-225, E-470--points to Limon) is not going TO Limon. Cross-country travelers are going toward Salina, Wichita, Topeka, KC or points east. Why not just say "I-70 East--Kansas City" or at least Topeka? And westbound I-70 in Kansas, why not have Denver (or even Denver/Colorado Springs due to US 24) as the control city(ies)?
I mean, I get that it's an important highway junction--but it was probably more important before the advent of I-70, since it was the crossroads of three fairly important US routes. And I also get that there is nothing else east of Denver or west of (I guess) Salina. But nobody is going to point to Limon as a major stopping point or destination.
No offense to any Limonians on this thread...
Eastbound from CS and Pueblo are going to take you through Limon to get to I-70. There is a considerable amount of southeast-bound truck traffic that diverts at Limon to avoid Raton Pass.
Control cities don't exist to list "important places" - they're to aid navigation, particularly for logistics purposes. Limon is small, but it is very important for navigation in Eastern Colorado if you're not taking I-70 to Denver, especially since there are few other landmarks on the High Plains.
What kind of logistics are we referring to? Truck drivers should have a pre-planned route and not be depending on control city signage as opposed to route signage.
People navigate to a large extent by landmarks. You want multiple levels of navigation reinforcement - that's why we have road names (often after prominent points), road numbers, exit numbers, and control cities. If you've spent a considerable amount of time driving across the High Plains, you'll know that there is literally nothing out there other than flat grasslands, and the occasional stream with short, shrubby trees.
Since you can't rely on a natural landmark to assist with navigation, a control city becomes far more important than in a more densely populated area. Reminding truck drivers that Limon is important, and coming up soon, is very helpful, since missing it (and we are all human, it happens sometimes) could lead to overshooting the exit by 30 miles or more.
Dictating policy by "oughts" is a sure-fire way to engineer failure.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 07:20:47 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 06:28:49 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:18:49 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 12:14:54 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:38:35 AM
But anyway, I-75 has none of those cities as control cities and those are not ideal control cities for I-75. From Sault Ste. Marie to Miami the control cities are/should be in this order:
St. Ignace at the International Bridge, then Mackinac Bridge takes over, then after that Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Tifton, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Naples, Miami. Why would you use Albany, Tallahassee and Jacksonville when I-75 takes you to none of those cities?
Georgia doesn't even use Tifton as a control city, so I have no idea why you would want to add it. Albany is certainly more important despite not being on the route.
Where did I say that they do use Tifton? And how exactly is Albany a better control city on I-75 than Tifton? I-75 actually goes through Tifton, it does not go through or even lead you to Albany. You are telling me you have no idea why I would want to add a city that is actually on the Interstate when you suggest that a city that is 40 miles west of it should be a control city?
Why are you suggesting control cities that aren't even on the route? Like you suggest the other day that Virginia should use Richmond and Washington on I-81 and then suggested that Wichita be added as a control city on I-70.
You sidestepped the question. You acknowledge that Georgia doesn't use Tifton, and you suggest that Tifton should be used, so the clearly implied question is *why*? Is the existing usage of Macon and Valdosta not good enough for you?
What do you mean good enough for me? What's wrong with using Tifton as a control city? You want to use Albany which isn't even on the route. Why would you use a control city that isn't on the route? What sense does that make?
Well I-5 has the control city for San Francisco even though it never touches the city. Mainly it's a reference that to reach San Francisco you either have to exit at I-580 west from the northbound direction of I-5 in the Tracy area or exit at US-50 west , I-80 West or I-505 south if you are in the Sacramento Valley area trying to reach the Bay Area.
Likewise Los Angeles gets used as a control city for I-40 west and I-15 south it's used as a reference to get to I-10, or CA-60 west or CA-210 west to get to Los Angeles.
A big question is why Florida chooses Naples over Fort Myers on I-75 south of Tampa. Yes I-75 turns from N-S to E-W there, but US 41 ( the route I-75 replaced) has always used Fort Myers south of Tampa and Miami south of Fort Myers on mileage signs.
IMO, it should have been copied over, though it doesn't bother me enough to lose sleep over, but FDOT made a sort of bad call there.
Quote from: bing101 on November 23, 2021, 11:30:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 07:20:47 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 06:28:49 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:18:49 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 12:14:54 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:38:35 AM
But anyway, I-75 has none of those cities as control cities and those are not ideal control cities for I-75. From Sault Ste. Marie to Miami the control cities are/should be in this order:
St. Ignace at the International Bridge, then Mackinac Bridge takes over, then after that Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Tifton, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Naples, Miami. Why would you use Albany, Tallahassee and Jacksonville when I-75 takes you to none of those cities?
Georgia doesn't even use Tifton as a control city, so I have no idea why you would want to add it. Albany is certainly more important despite not being on the route.
Where did I say that they do use Tifton? And how exactly is Albany a better control city on I-75 than Tifton? I-75 actually goes through Tifton, it does not go through or even lead you to Albany. You are telling me you have no idea why I would want to add a city that is actually on the Interstate when you suggest that a city that is 40 miles west of it should be a control city?
Why are you suggesting control cities that aren't even on the route? Like you suggest the other day that Virginia should use Richmond and Washington on I-81 and then suggested that Wichita be added as a control city on I-70.
You sidestepped the question. You acknowledge that Georgia doesn't use Tifton, and you suggest that Tifton should be used, so the clearly implied question is *why*? Is the existing usage of Macon and Valdosta not good enough for you?
What do you mean good enough for me? What's wrong with using Tifton as a control city? You want to use Albany which isn't even on the route. Why would you use a control city that isn't on the route? What sense does that make?
Well I-5 has the control city for San Francisco even though it never touches the city. Mainly it's a reference that to reach San Francisco you either have to exit at I-580 west from the northbound direction of I-5 in the Tracy area or exit at US-50 west , I-80 West or I-505 south if you are in the Sacramento Valley area trying to reach the Bay Area.
Likewise Los Angeles gets used as a control city for I-40 west and I-15 south it's used as a reference to get to I-10, or CA-60 west or CA-210 west to get to Los Angeles.
Is the control on I-5 San Francisco between I-580 and I-505? I don't remember seeing it in that area. But you are correct that SF is an appropriate control for I-5 for most of CA even though it doesn't go there. In many ways, 580 and 505 follow a direct line and isn't much of a directional turn.
I-40 and I-15 also are appropriate for L.A. controls, given their historic antecedents that did go to L.A. (particularly US 66). In AZ and NV L.A. is used as the control, but in CA, oddly it changes to the less known Barstow on I-40 and San Bernardino on I-15. This is a very bad move, since L.A. should be the control until you hit I-10
Quote from: bing101 on November 23, 2021, 11:30:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 07:20:47 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 06:28:49 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:18:49 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 12:14:54 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:38:35 AM
But anyway, I-75 has none of those cities as control cities and those are not ideal control cities for I-75. From Sault Ste. Marie to Miami the control cities are/should be in this order:
St. Ignace at the International Bridge, then Mackinac Bridge takes over, then after that Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Tifton, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Naples, Miami. Why would you use Albany, Tallahassee and Jacksonville when I-75 takes you to none of those cities?
Georgia doesn't even use Tifton as a control city, so I have no idea why you would want to add it. Albany is certainly more important despite not being on the route.
Where did I say that they do use Tifton? And how exactly is Albany a better control city on I-75 than Tifton? I-75 actually goes through Tifton, it does not go through or even lead you to Albany. You are telling me you have no idea why I would want to add a city that is actually on the Interstate when you suggest that a city that is 40 miles west of it should be a control city?
Why are you suggesting control cities that aren't even on the route? Like you suggest the other day that Virginia should use Richmond and Washington on I-81 and then suggested that Wichita be added as a control city on I-70.
You sidestepped the question. You acknowledge that Georgia doesn't use Tifton, and you suggest that Tifton should be used, so the clearly implied question is *why*? Is the existing usage of Macon and Valdosta not good enough for you?
What do you mean good enough for me? What's wrong with using Tifton as a control city? You want to use Albany which isn't even on the route. Why would you use a control city that isn't on the route? What sense does that make?
Well I-5 has the control city for San Francisco even though it never touches the city. Mainly it's a reference that to reach San Francisco you either have to exit at I-580 west from the northbound direction of I-5 in the Tracy area or exit at US-50 west , I-80 West or I-505 south if you are in the Sacramento Valley area trying to reach the Bay Area.
Likewise Los Angeles gets used as a control city for I-40 west and I-15 south it's used as a reference to get to I-10, or CA-60 west or CA-210 west to get to Los Angeles.
Yeah but the difference really is that there are other Interstate's you can use to get to San Francisco. Albany, GA doesn't have Interstate access and I-75 doesn't go there, also San Francisco is a major city one of the largest cities in the country, Albany isn't even close to that.
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
That said, I don't think you need Interstate or even freeway access. Quincy would be an appropriate control for I-72 even if I-172 didn't exist and there was only a surface road, and the same is true for Evansville and I-64 and I-164/I-69.
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
That said, I don't think you need Interstate or even freeway access. Quincy would be an appropriate control for I-72 even if I-172 didn't exist and there was only a surface road, and the same is true for Evansville and I-64 and I-164/I-69.
Honestly I think I would because I am familiar with I-75 and I'd see Albany and think where the heck is that at? If I saw say Tifton or Valdosta I'd know I was on the right route going in the right direction. I don't like control cities that are miles off of the Interstate that they are the control city on.
It'd be kind of like using Midland, MI on I-75. It doesn't go through Midland but you can access Midland via US-10.
One example in Michigan which I think is good is on US-127 as far south as Mount Pleasant the control city is Mackinac Bridge, usually spelled "Mackinac Br" due to there not being enough room to spell the word Bridge. Honestly though even though Mackinac Bridge is a good enough control city if they used Upper Peninsula as a control city it would be fine too.
Also come to mind is that the largest city on I-75 between Saginaw and the Mackinac Bridge is Bay City and that is only used once for a control city at exit 154. Gaylord could probably be an ok control city but Mackinac Bridge really gives you an idea of where you are going for sure.
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
That said, I don't think you need Interstate or even freeway access. Quincy would be an appropriate control for I-72 even if I-172 didn't exist and there was only a surface road, and the same is true for Evansville and I-64 and I-164/I-69.
If control cities have to be nationally known cities then (1) that means you support not using Limon on I-70 in CO as was discussed earlier, and (2) for I-75 in GA you still wouldn't use Tifton or Valdosta, arguably you would use Atlanta and Tampa FL.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
That said, I don't think you need Interstate or even freeway access. Quincy would be an appropriate control for I-72 even if I-172 didn't exist and there was only a surface road, and the same is true for Evansville and I-64 and I-164/I-69.
If control cities have to be nationally known cities then (1) that means you support not using Limon on I-70 in CO as was discussed earlier, and (2) for I-75 in GA you still wouldn't use Tifton or Valdosta, arguably you would use Atlanta and Tampa FL.
I don't support Limon or Tifton, but Valdosta is fine. (I never said anything to the contrary.) However, none of these three cities share a name with a very well-known city in the United States.
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 11:05:33 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
That said, I don't think you need Interstate or even freeway access. Quincy would be an appropriate control for I-72 even if I-172 didn't exist and there was only a surface road, and the same is true for Evansville and I-64 and I-164/I-69.
If control cities have to be nationally known cities then (1) that means you support not using Limon on I-70 in CO as was discussed earlier, and (2) for I-75 in GA you still wouldn't use Tifton or Valdosta, arguably you would use Atlanta and Tampa FL.
I don't support Limon or Tifton, but Valdosta is fine. (I never said anything to the contrary.) However, none of these three cities share a name with a very well-known city in the United States.
I do. Limon is fine because it's the only city in an otherwise sparsely populated area. Outside of the Denver suburban counties that border the county it's in almost all of the counties surrounding it have less than 10,000 people and the counties are about 2,500 square miles around there just showing how sparsely populated it is there. Tifton is fine too but it isn't used, Tifton has a medical center, museums, an university and is big enough for control city status.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
That said, I don't think you need Interstate or even freeway access. Quincy would be an appropriate control for I-72 even if I-172 didn't exist and there was only a surface road, and the same is true for Evansville and I-64 and I-164/I-69.
If control cities have to be nationally known cities then (1) that means you support not using Limon on I-70 in CO as was discussed earlier, and (2) for I-75 in GA you still wouldn't use Tifton or Valdosta, arguably you would use Atlanta and Tampa FL.
Control cities don't have to be nationally known cities. A control city is just a city in a series of cities along a corridor. All control cities do is aid the motorist traveling along that route. Which is why Albany shouldn't be used on I-75 in Georgia and it isn't but you can use Albany as a control city for a route that spurs off I-75 and goes to Albany.
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
I think this is a big one for control city choice. It's a reason why I-44 WB in St Louis uses Tulsa instead of Springfield as a control, because it can get confused with Springfield, IL in the opposite direction (and US 66 used to go through both).
The reality is, the Interstate system was built based on what the major cities were in the 1950s. We shouldn't continue to act like all the cities off the Interstate system are non-major and the ones on the route should be the only control cities. If you look at, for example, media markets, Albany GA is important enough to have a media market while Valdosta and Tifton do not.
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 11:05:33 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
That said, I don't think you need Interstate or even freeway access. Quincy would be an appropriate control for I-72 even if I-172 didn't exist and there was only a surface road, and the same is true for Evansville and I-64 and I-164/I-69.
If control cities have to be nationally known cities then (1) that means you support not using Limon on I-70 in CO as was discussed earlier, and (2) for I-75 in GA you still wouldn't use Tifton or Valdosta, arguably you would use Atlanta and Tampa FL.
I don't support Limon or Tifton, but Valdosta is fine. (I never said anything to the contrary.) However, none of these three cities share a name with a very well-known city in the United States.
Is Albany NY really a very well known city? It doesn't have professional sports or anything of similar magnitude in other industries, it just happens to be the state capital of the state that contains the largest city in the country.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 25, 2021, 11:38:13 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
I think this is a big one for control city choice. It's a reason why I-44 WB in St Louis uses Tulsa instead of Springfield as a control, because it can get confused with Springfield, IL in the opposite direction (and US 66 used to go through both).
Most states get around the confusion issue by including the state if it could be ambiguous, such as Jackson TN for I-40 east from Memphis (never mind that I think it should just be Nashville).
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 11:45:19 AM
Is Albany NY really a very well known city? It doesn't have professional sports or anything of similar magnitude in other industries, it just happens to be the state capital of the state that contains the largest city in the country.
Yes, I learned all my state capitals in elementary school, way before the first time I heard of Albany, GA, which was when I saw a sign for it en route to Disney World.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 11:43:30 AM
The reality is, the Interstate system was built based on what the major cities were in the 1950s. We shouldn't continue to act like all the cities off the Interstate system are non-major and the ones on the route should be the only control cities. If you look at, for example, media markets, Albany GA is important enough to have a media market while Valdosta and Tifton do not.
That's what exit destination signs are for. There would be a sign for Albany at US 82 going north and GA 300 going south.
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 11:43:30 AM
The reality is, the Interstate system was built based on what the major cities were in the 1950s. We shouldn't continue to act like all the cities off the Interstate system are non-major and the ones on the route should be the only control cities. If you look at, for example, media markets, Albany GA is important enough to have a media market while Valdosta and Tifton do not.
That's what exit destination signs are for. There would be a sign for Albany at US 82 going north and GA 300 going south.
It would also be useful to have the mileage/distance to cities like Albany as you approach the exit for it on I-75. That's one of the examples of my previous post where some people only think of the directional signage but I also consider the most useful cities to include for the mileage signage.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 25, 2021, 11:38:13 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
I think this is a big one for control city choice. It's a reason why I-44 WB in St Louis uses Tulsa instead of Springfield as a control, because it can get confused with Springfield, IL in the opposite direction (and US 66 used to go through both).
Right that one would confuse a lot of people unless you put Springfield, MO and Springfield, IL on the signs and even then I can see confusion.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 11:45:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 11:05:33 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
That said, I don't think you need Interstate or even freeway access. Quincy would be an appropriate control for I-72 even if I-172 didn't exist and there was only a surface road, and the same is true for Evansville and I-64 and I-164/I-69.
If control cities have to be nationally known cities then (1) that means you support not using Limon on I-70 in CO as was discussed earlier, and (2) for I-75 in GA you still wouldn't use Tifton or Valdosta, arguably you would use Atlanta and Tampa FL.
I don't support Limon or Tifton, but Valdosta is fine. (I never said anything to the contrary.) However, none of these three cities share a name with a very well-known city in the United States.
Is Albany NY really a very well known city? It doesn't have professional sports or anything of similar magnitude in other industries, it just happens to be the state capital of the state that contains the largest city in the country.
Yes Albany, NY is really a very well known city. It's the state capital and doesn't need sports teams or stuff like that. When you are traveling along I-75 and you see a sign that says Albany and you never get to Albany via I-75 what sense does it make to have Albany as a control city then? You don't have to support Tifton and it isn't used but Tifton at least has a medical center and university and some museums.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 11:46:26 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 25, 2021, 11:38:13 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
I think this is a big one for control city choice. It's a reason why I-44 WB in St Louis uses Tulsa instead of Springfield as a control, because it can get confused with Springfield, IL in the opposite direction (and US 66 used to go through both).
Most states get around the confusion issue by including the state if it could be ambiguous, such as Jackson TN for I-40 east from Memphis (never mind that I think it should just be Nashville).
Jackson is a regional trade center for western Tennessee. There are multiple universities there, it is a notable city along I-40 between Memphis and Nashville. Now would you like to argue that Jackson, TN could be confused with Jackson, MS?
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 11:43:30 AM
The reality is, the Interstate system was built based on what the major cities were in the 1950s. We shouldn't continue to act like all the cities off the Interstate system are non-major and the ones on the route should be the only control cities. If you look at, for example, media markets, Albany GA is important enough to have a media market while Valdosta and Tifton do not.
That's what exit destination signs are for. There would be a sign for Albany at US 82 going north and GA 300 going south.
I'd say it's mentioned pretty good. You could also get off at exit 16 for Waycross.
https://www.google.com/maps/@31.444906,-83.5289427,3a,15y,332.54h,94.34t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5qxcJP63VrTMbo82w-z8hg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D5qxcJP63VrTMbo82w-z8hg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D47.194695%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@31.9387868,-83.7483363,3a,15y,177.21h,93.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPaHQoRdECDy7giL4GMwi4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2021, 07:48:46 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 11:46:26 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 25, 2021, 11:38:13 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
I think this is a big one for control city choice. It's a reason why I-44 WB in St Louis uses Tulsa instead of Springfield as a control, because it can get confused with Springfield, IL in the opposite direction (and US 66 used to go through both).
Most states get around the confusion issue by including the state if it could be ambiguous, such as Jackson TN for I-40 east from Memphis (never mind that I think it should just be Nashville).
Jackson is a regional trade center for western Tennessee. There are multiple universities there, it is a notable city along I-40 between Memphis and Nashville. Now would you like to argue that Jackson, TN could be confused with Jackson, MS?
Did they just change the control cities? For as long as I can remember, I-40 east from Memphis has always had Nashville as its control city. I-55 south from Memphis has always had "Jackson Miss" as it's control city, at least while in Tennessee, then when you cross into MS it changes to Grenada because that's MS being MS.
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 26, 2021, 01:01:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2021, 07:48:46 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 11:46:26 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 25, 2021, 11:38:13 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM
Albany is also potentially ambiguous – I-75 gets a lot of people from outside the area. If someone from Michigan sees Albany and isn't aware there's one in Georgia, they're going to be confused.
I think this is a big one for control city choice. It's a reason why I-44 WB in St Louis uses Tulsa instead of Springfield as a control, because it can get confused with Springfield, IL in the opposite direction (and US 66 used to go through both).
Most states get around the confusion issue by including the state if it could be ambiguous, such as Jackson TN for I-40 east from Memphis (never mind that I think it should just be Nashville).
Jackson is a regional trade center for western Tennessee. There are multiple universities there, it is a notable city along I-40 between Memphis and Nashville. Now would you like to argue that Jackson, TN could be confused with Jackson, MS?
Did they just change the control cities? For as long as I can remember, I-40 east from Memphis has always had Nashville as its control city. I-55 south from Memphis has always had "Jackson Miss" as it's control city, at least while in Tennessee, then when you cross into MS it changes to Grenada because that's MS being MS.
I don't think so. To my knowledge Nashville is the EB I-40 control city after Memphis.
Quote from: Katavia on March 16, 2016, 11:01:05 AM
Used to be I-485 with "Rock Hill SC" - they've fixed it now :clap: :clap: to NCDOT
BUT I-85 between Charlotte and High Point is still "Kannapolis (arrow here)" on directional signs for exit ramps :P
Some of the control cities around the 485 loop still don't really make sense. at the E John St exit, the controls are Concord and Columbia, but at the US 74 exit, just 1 mile north, the controls are Huntersville and Pineville. the 74 eastbound signs used to be for Greensboro and Columbia, but were updated sometime in 2018.
Do we really think that Albany GA should be used on I-75? It's not that big of a city and it's not even on I-75.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2021, 04:24:38 AM
Do we really think that Albany GA should be used on I-75? It's not that big of a city and it's not even on I-75.
No
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2021, 04:24:38 AM
Do we really think that Albany GA should be used on I-75? It's not that big of a city and it's not even on I-75.
If we only want very large cities/urban areas to be used, then the cities for that part of I-75 should be Atlanta and Tampa (possibly alternating with Orlando). Albany is large enough to have its own media market.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 28, 2021, 03:16:46 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2021, 04:24:38 AM
Do we really think that Albany GA should be used on I-75? It's not that big of a city and it's not even on I-75.
If we only want very large cities/urban areas to be used, then the cities for that part of I-75 should be Atlanta and Tampa (possibly alternating with Orlando). Albany is large enough to have its own media market.
Okay, and so is the shining metropolis of Glendive, MT (pop. 4,873 in 2020). And there are media markets that should exist but don't because of population change from when markets were first laid out. See southern Utah - there should absolutely be a TV market in Cedar City or St George, but a lot of the population growth there is recent and the SLC stations will never let go of that area because $. So that's a poor comparison.
That said, the point of control cities is to give an idea of where a route goes. If you're going to use a city that isn't on the route, it should at least be on a logical extension of it. Stuff like Las Vegas for I-70 in Utah, Chattanooga for I-59, or Grand Jct for I-76 in Denver. And I wouldn't even object to cities that aren't really on a route but are basically "served" by it. Rochester MN is a good example of that - it isn't really on I-90, but I-90 is pretty damn close, and I wouldn't argue if it were an I-90 control (based on a quick GSV scan, it isn't).
Albany, GA meets none of those. It is nowhere near I-75, which keeps on going right past it. Same with Orlando.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 28, 2021, 03:16:46 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2021, 04:24:38 AM
Do we really think that Albany GA should be used on I-75? It's not that big of a city and it's not even on I-75.
If we only want very large cities/urban areas to be used, then the cities for that part of I-75 should be Atlanta and Tampa (possibly alternating with Orlando). Albany is large enough to have its own media market.
Smaller cities are ok and not against the rules but Albany is well off I-75 and not really that big. Having it's own media market don't mean much when I-75 doesn't get you that close to Albany at all. There are signs for Albany at the US-82 exit and GA-300 exit. Orlando shouldn't be used either, the control cities are actually fine the way they are along I-75.
"I-95 South Chester" as in Chester, PA on signs in Philadelphia, PA. Wouldn't Wilmington or Baltimore work?
Mileage signs are usually omitted in urban areas if there are other signage that is more important in the vicinity. But yes, the SB control city from Philadelphia should be Baltimore.
"the point of control cities is to give an idea of where a route goes"
For directional signs, maybe. But control cities are also specified to be used on mileage/distance signs. For that purpose a good control city is an actual location that people are traveling to and people would be interested in knowing the distance to. Even if the driver must change to a different route to get there.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 28, 2021, 06:58:18 PM
Mileage signs are usually omitted in urban areas if there are other signage that is more important in the vicinity. But yes, the SB control city from Philadelphia should be Baltimore.
"the point of control cities is to give an idea of where a route goes"
For directional signs, maybe. But control cities are also specified to be used on mileage/distance signs. For that purpose a good control city is an actual location that people are traveling to and people would be interested in knowing the distance to. Even if the driver must change to a different route to get there.
I would use Wilmington as it's the largest city in Delaware
Should be Wilmington then Baltimore.
Keep in mind that northbound on I-95 in Maryland, three states (Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey) are skipped in favor of NYC.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 29, 2021, 09:48:32 AM
Keep in mind that northbound on I-95 in Maryland, three states (Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey) are skipped in favor of NYC.
Maryland assumes that the "through route" is the Del Memorial Bridge (which is what I'm guessing), which is why they skip Wilmington and Philadelphia.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 29, 2021, 01:45:52 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 29, 2021, 09:48:32 AM
Keep in mind that northbound on I-95 in Maryland, three states (Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey) are skipped in favor of NYC.
Maryland assumes that the "through route" is the Del Memorial Bridge (which is what I'm guessing), which is why they skip Wilmington and Philadelphia.
New York is more of a destination city so therefore it's reasonable.
Wilmington isn't that big really.
I would replace "Nashville" with "Raleigh" on this sign since it's much bigger.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8882482,-77.5420135,3a,28.8y,269.24h,95.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJdqgfbwlLaMbpHzWdjrrBA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DJdqgfbwlLaMbpHzWdjrrBA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D6.96386%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I don't really like the use of Portsmouth, NH in Massachusetts. I wish they'd use Portland, Maine instead.
Malvern? Where the hell is Malvern?
(https://i.imgur.com/Pa1ATsq.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5374347,-92.6740442,3a,19.8y,229.5h,96.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D119.9967%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 14, 2022, 06:54:42 PM
Malvern? Where the hell is Malvern?
(https://i.imgur.com/Pa1ATsq.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5374347,-92.6740442,3a,19.8y,229.5h,96.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D119.9967%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
It's a secondary makes sense
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 14, 2022, 06:54:42 PM
Malvern? Where the hell is Malvern?
West of Little Rock.
Quote from: bing101 on November 23, 2021, 11:30:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 07:20:47 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 06:28:49 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:18:49 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 21, 2021, 12:14:54 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 21, 2021, 04:38:35 AM
But anyway, I-75 has none of those cities as control cities and those are not ideal control cities for I-75. From Sault Ste. Marie to Miami the control cities are/should be in this order:
St. Ignace at the International Bridge, then Mackinac Bridge takes over, then after that Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Tifton, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Naples, Miami. Why would you use Albany, Tallahassee and Jacksonville when I-75 takes you to none of those cities?
Georgia doesn't even use Tifton as a control city, so I have no idea why you would want to add it. Albany is certainly more important despite not being on the route.
Where did I say that they do use Tifton? And how exactly is Albany a better control city on I-75 than Tifton? I-75 actually goes through Tifton, it does not go through or even lead you to Albany. You are telling me you have no idea why I would want to add a city that is actually on the Interstate when you suggest that a city that is 40 miles west of it should be a control city?
Why are you suggesting control cities that aren't even on the route? Like you suggest the other day that Virginia should use Richmond and Washington on I-81 and then suggested that Wichita be added as a control city on I-70.
You sidestepped the question. You acknowledge that Georgia doesn't use Tifton, and you suggest that Tifton should be used, so the clearly implied question is *why*? Is the existing usage of Macon and Valdosta not good enough for you?
What do you mean good enough for me? What's wrong with using Tifton as a control city? You want to use Albany which isn't even on the route. Why would you use a control city that isn't on the route? What sense does that make?
Well I-5 has the control city for San Francisco even though it never touches the city. Mainly it's a reference that to reach San Francisco you either have to exit at I-580 west from the northbound direction of I-5 in the Tracy area or exit at US-50 west , I-80 West or I-505 south if you are in the Sacramento Valley area trying to reach the Bay Area.
Likewise Los Angeles gets used as a control city for I-40 west and I-15 south it's used as a reference to get to I-10, or CA-60 west or CA-210 west to get to Los Angeles.
HUUUUUGGGGGEEEEE difference between utilizing an interstate that goes towards a major metro area of importance and using a control city for a minor city that is miles off the highway.
I-5 using San Francisco, I-40 using Los Angeles and I-70 using Las Vegas makes a ton of sense. I-75 using Albany GA that at it's closest point is 70 miles away is a joke. Just stop yourself.
Albany is not "minor". It has its own media market and I-75 passes through that media market, thus, it is a reasonable control city. As I've said before, today's population/major cities are not necessarily the same ones that were major when the Interstate system was designed.
Who gets to decide what the "major metro areas of importance" are? I'm using media markets. (There is some relation between media markets and metro/urban areas, but the advantage of media markets is that most if not all places in the country are located within one.) You seem to be using some other kind of probably more arbitrary criteria.
I-76 W in Philadelphia uses Valley Forge. It's not worthless, but it's not really a city.
Quote from: ran4sh on January 17, 2022, 04:35:56 PM
Albany is not "minor". It has its own media market and I-75 passes through that media market, thus, it is a reasonable control city. As I've said before, today's population/major cities are not necessarily the same ones that were major when the Interstate system was designed.
Who gets to decide what the "major metro areas of importance" are? I'm using media markets. (There is some relation between media markets and metro/urban areas, but the advantage of media markets is that most if not all places in the country are located within one.) You seem to be using some other kind of probably more arbitrary criteria.
Albany, Georgia is a medium sized city at the furthest extent. Media markets extend for quite a distance sometimes, like here in Michigan the Flint market extends from a little south of Flint itself, includes the entire thumb area, Tri-Cities, Mount Pleasant, all the way up to about West Branch and Tawas and even further north than that so using a media market doesn't really say much. I-75 passing through it's media market with the city itself being about 30 miles away from I-75 doesn't make much sense for it to be used as a control city on I-75. I-75 passes through the area and Albany isn't that big of a city so it shouldn't be a control city on I-75.
Quote from: ran4sh on January 17, 2022, 04:35:56 PM
Albany is not "minor". It has its own media market and I-75 passes through that media market, thus, it is a reasonable control city. As I've said before, today's population/major cities are not necessarily the same ones that were major when the Interstate system was designed.
Who gets to decide what the "major metro areas of importance" are? I'm using media markets. (There is some relation between media markets and metro/urban areas, but the advantage of media markets is that most if not all places in the country are located within one.) You seem to be using some other kind of probably more arbitrary criteria.
Bahaha. Ada, Oklahoma has a media market. "Where?" Exactly.
Who gets to decide what the "media markets" are? And what do those people have to do with navigation?
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on January 17, 2022, 05:09:36 PM
I-76 W in Philadelphia uses Valley Forge. It's not worthless, but it's not really a city.
At least it's famous...
Why does NC use Ft. Chiswell north of Statesville on I-77? I never heard of it until I looked on the old paper map before the Goog became the thing.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 14, 2022, 07:04:28 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 14, 2022, 06:54:42 PM
Malvern? Where the hell is Malvern?
(https://i.imgur.com/Pa1ATsq.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5374347,-92.6740442,3a,19.8y,229.5h,96.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D119.9967%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
It's a secondary makes sense
If you mean that it makes sense as a worthless control city, then we agree. :-D
Quote from: roadman65 on January 18, 2022, 06:24:10 PM
Why does NC use Ft. Chiswell north of Statesville on I-77? I never heard of it until I looked on the old paper map before the Goog became the thing.
Where do they use that at? Whenever I've been through there I remember Wytheville and Elkin being used. I've spent the night in Statesville quite a few times. If they do use Fort Chiswell I don't remember where but it makes sense as I-77 goes right to it at the eastern junction with I-81.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 14, 2022, 06:54:42 PM
Malvern? Where the hell is Malvern?
(https://i.imgur.com/Pa1ATsq.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5374347,-92.6740442,3a,19.8y,229.5h,96.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D119.9967%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
This one makes sense to me as a secondary control city, since it's where US 70 splits off after being concurrent with I-30 for a while, and Malvern is the next junction with a major route (US 270).
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 17, 2022, 08:56:07 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on January 17, 2022, 04:35:56 PM
Albany is not "minor". It has its own media market and I-75 passes through that media market, thus, it is a reasonable control city. As I've said before, today's population/major cities are not necessarily the same ones that were major when the Interstate system was designed.
Who gets to decide what the "major metro areas of importance" are? I'm using media markets. (There is some relation between media markets and metro/urban areas, but the advantage of media markets is that most if not all places in the country are located within one.) You seem to be using some other kind of probably more arbitrary criteria.
Bahaha. Ada, Oklahoma has a media market. "Where?" Exactly.
Who gets to decide what the "media markets" are? And what do those people have to do with navigation?
Probably because Ada is the largest or most important place in its region. In any case, some criteria should be consistently used such as urbanized areas or metro areas over a certain amount of population.
A lot of people on here are forgetting that I-75 doesn't simply use Atlanta and Tampa (which is what it would be if we only used nationally-significant cities). So in comparison to what is actually used, using Albany instead of Valdosta bc Albany is the basis of a media market and Valdosta is not, is actually an improvement.
Edit
If you have data showing which places are actually navigated to, distinct from how populated they are, then that would probably be the best way to determine control cities. In the absence of such data the use of populated areas is probably the best determination of such.
Also according to https://thevab.com/storage/app/media/Toolkit/DMA_Map_2019.pdf Ada isn't its own media market, it's combined with Sherman and the market is called "Sherman-Ada". In most of those cases I would use the first or largest place listed as a control city and not the others.
Quote from: kinupanda on January 19, 2022, 12:27:23 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 14, 2022, 06:54:42 PM
Malvern? Where the hell is Malvern?
(https://i.imgur.com/Pa1ATsq.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5374347,-92.6740442,3a,19.8y,229.5h,96.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D119.9967%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
This one makes sense to me as a secondary control city, since it's where US 70 splits off after being concurrent with I-30 for a while, and Malvern is the next junction with a major route (US 270).
And also in most places where two controls are listed, the secondary is used first (since it is the closest) and then the primary.
If Malvern were used alone, it is probably a worthless control city. But I think most on here can agree that if two controls are used and one of the controls is a reasonably big or known location, there is a lot of leeway in allowing for a small city as a secondary control.
In any case, I get the idea that everyone on here has their own idea of what should and should not be a control city. Case in point I get some people saying my suggested control cities are too small (e.g. Albany despite it having a metro, urban, and media market area), and other saying that my suggested control cities should be smaller (e.g. my omission of Winchester VA for I-81 because Roanoke and Hagerstown are more appropriate control cities). Thus, I no longer care what most people have to say regarding my suggested control cities.
Quote from: ran4sh on January 19, 2022, 12:54:34 PM
In any case, I get the idea that everyone on here has their own idea of what should and should not be a control city. Case in point I get some people saying my suggested control cities are too small (e.g. Albany despite it having a metro, urban, and media market area), and other saying that my suggested control cities should be smaller (e.g. my omission of Winchester VA for I-81 because Roanoke and Hagerstown are more appropriate control cities). Thus, I no longer care what most people have to say regarding my suggested control cities.
I don't think most people on here are complaining about Albany GA because it's too small. They're complaining because it
isn't on I-75.
I'm pretty sure every interstate control city is either actually on or reasonably close to the highway or a logical extension of it (think maybe 5-10 miles away at most). I-75 barely makes it 30 miles from Albany straight line distance, and it's significantly farther via actual roads.
Quote from: ran4sh on January 19, 2022, 12:54:34 PM
In any case, I get the idea that everyone on here has their own idea of what should and should not be a control city. Case in point I get some people saying my suggested control cities are too small (e.g. Albany despite it having a metro, urban, and media market area), and other saying that my suggested control cities should be smaller (e.g. my omission of Winchester VA for I-81 because Roanoke and Hagerstown are more appropriate control cities). Thus, I no longer care what most people have to say regarding my suggested control cities.
Nobody said that Albany is too small to be a control city. We said that it isn't an control city on I-75 because Albany isn't on I-75. It's 30 miles west of I-75 and a through route to Florida so using cities that I-75 actually goes through is a lot better than using a city that it doesn't go through.
Not only does I-75 not go to or through Albany, Georgia it doesn't even enter the county that Albany is in and in fact the county that borders Dougherty County to the east (Worth County) I-75 doesn't enter that county either. Albany and Tifton (which I-75 does go through) are 40 miles apart. Albany's peak population was 78,122 it is not a big enough city to be a control city on a highway that doesn't even come within 40 miles of it.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 21, 2022, 06:00:38 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on January 19, 2022, 12:54:34 PM
In any case, I get the idea that everyone on here has their own idea of what should and should not be a control city. Case in point I get some people saying my suggested control cities are too small (e.g. Albany despite it having a metro, urban, and media market area), and other saying that my suggested control cities should be smaller (e.g. my omission of Winchester VA for I-81 because Roanoke and Hagerstown are more appropriate control cities). Thus, I no longer care what most people have to say regarding my suggested control cities.
Nobody said that Albany is too small to be a control city. We said that it isn't an control city on I-75 because Albany isn't on I-75. It's 30 miles west of I-75 and a through route to Florida so using cities that I-75 actually goes through is a lot better than using a city that it doesn't go through.
And I said that a city doesn't have to be on the route to be a control city. Control cities appear on mileage/distance signs, and having actual destinations which travelers are trying to reach, shown on mileage signs, is helpful even for places off the route.
For example, going southbound, Albany would be used beginning in Macon (Macon would be used from Atlanta to Macon) and then when the SR 300 exit is reached Albany would be used for that exit and then the SB city would change to either Jacksonville or Gainesville (depending on traffic count). On NB I-75 leaving Gainesville, Tallahassee would be used until I-10, Albany would be used until Tifton (US 82 exit), and then Macon would be used. Another alternative for those who prefer larger cities would be to just use Atlanta and Tampa, but that is not what is currently used.
Quote from: ran4sh on January 21, 2022, 03:22:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 21, 2022, 06:00:38 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on January 19, 2022, 12:54:34 PM
In any case, I get the idea that everyone on here has their own idea of what should and should not be a control city. Case in point I get some people saying my suggested control cities are too small (e.g. Albany despite it having a metro, urban, and media market area), and other saying that my suggested control cities should be smaller (e.g. my omission of Winchester VA for I-81 because Roanoke and Hagerstown are more appropriate control cities). Thus, I no longer care what most people have to say regarding my suggested control cities.
Nobody said that Albany is too small to be a control city. We said that it isn't an control city on I-75 because Albany isn't on I-75. It's 30 miles west of I-75 and a through route to Florida so using cities that I-75 actually goes through is a lot better than using a city that it doesn't go through.
And I said that a city doesn't have to be on the route to be a control city. Control cities appear on mileage/distance signs, and having actual destinations which travelers are trying to reach, shown on mileage signs, is helpful even for places off the route.
For example, going southbound, Albany would be used beginning in Macon (Macon would be used from Atlanta to Macon) and then when the SR 300 exit is reached Albany would be used for that exit and then the SB city would change to either Jacksonville or Gainesville (depending on traffic count). On NB I-75 leaving Gainesville, Tallahassee would be used until I-10, Albany would be used until Tifton (US 82 exit), and then Macon would be used. Another alternative for those who prefer larger cities would be to just use Atlanta and Tampa, but that is not what is currently used.
Why doesn't a city have to be on the route in order to be a control city? A control city is mentioned on signs indicating that the city mentioned or whatever is mentioned is along that route not some city that the route doesn't even take you to. I don't understand your argument that Albany is a better choice than Tifton or Valdosta. I-75 is actually veering away from Albany as it passes 30 miles to the east of it too and heading to Florida which is where it's supposed to go. Jacksonville or Gainesville? You can't be serious. I-75 is over twice the distance from Jacksonville than it is Albany, Georgia. Gainesville isn't even the first Florida city to be used, Lake City is because it's near I-10 which is a major junction. Lake City is known as the Gateway to Florida as well. Tallahassee is yet another city that I-75 doesn't enter which is three times the distance from I-75 as Albany, Georgia. How can you justify using these control cities on a highway that doesn't go anywhere near these cities? I-75's control cities are fine throughout the entire route: St. Ignace, Mackinac Bridge, Saginaw, Flint, Detroit, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Naples, Miami, what's wrong with that? At least I-75 goes through those cities unlike Albany, GA; Jacksonville and Tallahassee. And why would Tampa and Atlanta be used and nothing else? Tampa and Atlanta are 450 miles from each other and there are other perfectly fine control cities in between.
Los Angeles...when the said freeway/highway is within the city limits of Los Angeles.
I would take out Nashville and Tarboro and just have Rocky Mount and Raleigh on them. This is a lot of information on just one sign.
Nashville is a small town not too far away and Tarboro is also the same way (Well it's further away, but was added on that sign when the US-64 freeway was extended there I assume).
Although construction of a new interchange not too far from the existing interchange (US-64 I-95 cloverleaf) is currently under construction, but I can't find the signage plans for them... So I don't honestly know what they plan on doing. I guess I will have to wait until it wraps up completely.
https://goo.gl/maps/t5fWAN7t11JnLQUP9
Nashville and Tarboro can go on a separate sign to something like this (https://goo.gl/maps/MgXffuDZkhQipyPq8).
Just throwing out suggestions.
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 22, 2022, 03:37:54 AM
I would take out Nashville and Tarboro and just have Rocky Mount and Raleigh on them. This is a lot of information on just one sign.
Rocky Mount and Raleigh make the most sense there. Tarboro maybe in place of Rocky Mount since you are pretty much already in Rocky Mount at that point.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 17, 2022, 11:21:05 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on January 17, 2022, 05:09:36 PM
I-76 W in Philadelphia uses Valley Forge. It's not worthless, but it's not really a city.
At least it's famous...
True, and it's preferable to the alternatives.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 22, 2022, 11:14:51 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 22, 2022, 03:37:54 AM
I would take out Nashville and Tarboro and just have Rocky Mount and Raleigh on them. This is a lot of information on just one sign.
Rocky Mount and Raleigh make the most sense there. Tarboro maybe in place of Rocky Mount since you are pretty much already in Rocky Mount at that point.
When I-87 gets applied Raleigh will make it on I-95 guides as well as Williamston or even Norfolk.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on January 22, 2022, 01:34:05 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 17, 2022, 11:21:05 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on January 17, 2022, 05:09:36 PM
I-76 W in Philadelphia uses Valley Forge. It's not worthless, but it's not really a city.
At least it's famous...
True, and it's preferable to the alternatives.
You could sign Harrisburg.
Quote from: SeriesE on January 22, 2022, 01:28:28 AM
Los Angeles...when the said freeway/highway is within the city limits of Los Angeles.
You see that in lots of cities. A lot of times it's assumed that "Los Angeles" means "downtown Los Angeles", but nobody but the guy making the sign is going to understand that. If you mean downtown, say downtown. The control city should change to the next one at the city limits.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 22, 2022, 05:46:17 PM
Quote from: SeriesE on January 22, 2022, 01:28:28 AM
Los Angeles...when the said freeway/highway is within the city limits of Los Angeles.
You see that in lots of cities. A lot of times it's assumed that "Los Angeles" means "downtown Los Angeles", but nobody but the guy making the sign is going to understand that. If you mean downtown, say downtown. The control city should change to the next one at the city limits.
Completely agreed. It's even worse if the "city center" moved to a different part of the city from decades of development (and therefore is the primary destination for most visitors) and the signs for the city still points towards the old downtown (which few people go anymore).
City limits are arbitrary borders which can be marked with a sign if helpful to motorists, but should not be a major factor in most signage decisions.
The MUTCD even says so:
Section 2E.07, paragraph 1
Support:
01 Urban conditions are characterized not so much by city limits or other arbitrary boundaries, as by the following features:
Mainline roadways with more than two lanes in each direction;
High traffic volumes on the through roadways;
High volumes of traffic entering and leaving interchanges;
Interchanges closely spaced;
Roadway and interchange lighting;
Three or more interchanges serving the major city;
A loop, circumferential, or spur serving a sizable portion of the urban population; and
Visual clutter from roadside development.
^ None of those apply to Albany and I-75.
I remember seeing Lordsburg listed as a control city at the junction of US 191 and US 70 as a kid, getting my license later on in life, driving out there, and thinking, "Is that all there is?" :-D
Of course now I understand that it's a major "halfway point" for travelers heading from Los Angeles to Houston, hence the somewhat nice hotel chains next to the interstate.
Not to mention a major detour nexus point when dust storms inevitably shut down Interstate 10 at the AZ/NM line, so frequently in fact that I-10 Detour signs were permanently installed along US 191 and US 70 in back 2017.
It makes more sense now.
Quote from: SeriesE on January 22, 2022, 09:13:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 22, 2022, 05:46:17 PM
Quote from: SeriesE on January 22, 2022, 01:28:28 AM
Los Angeles...when the said freeway/highway is within the city limits of Los Angeles.
You see that in lots of cities. A lot of times it's assumed that "Los Angeles" means "downtown Los Angeles", but nobody but the guy making the sign is going to understand that. If you mean downtown, say downtown. The control city should change to the next one at the city limits.
Completely agreed. It's even worse if the "city center" moved to a different part of the city from decades of development (and therefore is the primary destination for most visitors) and the signs for the city still points towards the old downtown (which few people go anymore).
For smaller cities, I would agree. At city limits, the next control city should be signed.
For larger cities, especially geographically large cities, if you are still far from the central part of town, then the control city should reflect "Central LA" or "Downtown LA" or "LA Civic Center" as the case may be. I would envision these areas to have a specific definition where one can go from one to the other.
If you are coming in from the San Joaquin Valley on I-5, you actually hit the L.A. city limits even north of the 5/14 interchange. It would not be helpful for folks that are headed into the more central parts of L.A. to start signing a control city of Santa Ana (or San Diego) at that point, since most of L.A. and Downtown L.A. not only hasn't been reached yet, but is still quite a good drive still ahead. Even weirder, you enter through L.A. at that point, then enter Burbank and Glendale, and then continue again through parts of L.A. before getting anywhere near Downtown. So special controls are needed to adequately describe what is going on.
If you enter the city limits on any highway, it is wrong to use "LA" as the control. Let's define an area to be known as Central L.A., to be the section within city limits that is roughly north of Slauson, west of La Cienega, and south of Mulholland. As the eastern city limits are pretty close to Downtown, the eastern city limits will be the eastern limits for Central L.A. So if you are within city limits, but outside the box of Central L.A., let Central L.A. be the control on any inbound freeway that leads to the Slauson/La Cienega/Mulholland box.
Going further towards the center, existing road signs to distinguish between Downtown LA (skyscraper neighborhood near the 4th, 6th, and 9th exits of the 110) and L.A. Civic Center (City Hall and other government buildings near 101 between Broadway and Alameda). So the roads that lead to the 110 [namely 110 South south of the South Pasadena/LA border, CA-2 southbound toward I-5, I-5 southbound toward CA-110 south of the Glendale/LA border, I-10 EB east of La Cienega, and I-110 NB north of Slauson] should all have a control of Downtown L.A. The roads that lead to the 101 [namely 101 south of Barham, I-5 NB at city limits, CA-60 EB at city limits, and I-10 EB at city limits] should have a control of L.A. Civic Center.
Once you have basically reached Downtown or the Civic Center, the next control city can be signed. So US 101 north Ventura can be signed after crossing Alameda, US 101 south to 5/10/60 Santa Ana San Bernardino can be signed at the Four Level Interchange, CA-110 south San Pedro can be signed at the Four Level Interchange, and 110 north Pasadena can be signed north of the I-10 interchange.
So while I agree that it is bad practice to sign for a control city while you are within city limits, the largest cities often need to still maintain a control of "Central LA" or "Downtown LA" in areas where the city limits are still very far from the central portions of the city.
-----
We see this in Chicago. The I-57/I-94 interchange is well within city limits, but far from the loop. The control for I-94 west is "Chicago Loop" not Wisconsin.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 23, 2022, 01:19:08 PM
^ None of those apply to Albany and I-75.
I was referring to the suggestion made/supported by 2 separate other users for cities like Los Angeles to not be posted as a control city within the arbitrary city limit. As mrsman explained, that is not ideal in some cases. I would expand to say that it's not ideal in any case.
Control city designations, at least for directional signs (mileage/distance signs are usually omitted in urban areas when other signs are needed), should continue to a point at which most traffic using that control city will have reached their destination, such as the urbanized city center. At which point the signage should switch to the next city. Alternatively, where a Community Interchanges sign or Next X Exits sign is posted, the city can be considered reached and then the next city can be posted. Not before then, and not based on the city limit.
For I-10 in NM I would skip Lordsburg and use Tucson for WB, for EB El Paso is the next major city but if NM insists on using an in-state destination then Las Cruces would be better than Lordsburg.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 22, 2022, 01:35:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 22, 2022, 11:14:51 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 22, 2022, 03:37:54 AM
I would take out Nashville and Tarboro and just have Rocky Mount and Raleigh on them. This is a lot of information on just one sign.
Rocky Mount and Raleigh make the most sense there. Tarboro maybe in place of Rocky Mount since you are pretty much already in Rocky Mount at that point.
When I-87 gets applied Raleigh will make it on I-95 guides as well as Williamston or even Norfolk.
I think Norfolk would be the best control city. It should be put on I-440 in Raleigh as well and it should be below Rocky Mount.
https://goo.gl/maps/4L6DKQLbuKaDpp1Y8
And over here they can add Raleigh below Elizabeth City. These are my suggestions. https://goo.gl/maps/JjHkgkgdQmPao6dS7
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 23, 2022, 06:50:23 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 22, 2022, 01:35:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 22, 2022, 11:14:51 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 22, 2022, 03:37:54 AM
I would take out Nashville and Tarboro and just have Rocky Mount and Raleigh on them. This is a lot of information on just one sign.
Rocky Mount and Raleigh make the most sense there. Tarboro maybe in place of Rocky Mount since you are pretty much already in Rocky Mount at that point.
When I-87 gets applied Raleigh will make it on I-95 guides as well as Williamston or even Norfolk.
I think Norfolk would be the best control city. It should be put on I-440 in Raleigh as well and it should be below Rocky Mount.
https://goo.gl/maps/4L6DKQLbuKaDpp1Y8
And over here they can add Raleigh below Elizabeth City. These are my suggestions. https://goo.gl/maps/JjHkgkgdQmPao6dS7
Perhaps 20-30 years down the line, once I-87 is finally built all the way out.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 23, 2022, 07:49:32 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 23, 2022, 06:50:23 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 22, 2022, 01:35:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 22, 2022, 11:14:51 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 22, 2022, 03:37:54 AM
I would take out Nashville and Tarboro and just have Rocky Mount and Raleigh on them. This is a lot of information on just one sign.
Rocky Mount and Raleigh make the most sense there. Tarboro maybe in place of Rocky Mount since you are pretty much already in Rocky Mount at that point.
When I-87 gets applied Raleigh will make it on I-95 guides as well as Williamston or even Norfolk.
I think Norfolk would be the best control city. It should be put on I-440 in Raleigh as well and it should be below Rocky Mount.
https://goo.gl/maps/4L6DKQLbuKaDpp1Y8
And over here they can add Raleigh below Elizabeth City. These are my suggestions. https://goo.gl/maps/JjHkgkgdQmPao6dS7
Perhaps 20-30 years down the line, once I-87 is finally built all the way out.
Yeah. The ones you can expect happening the soonest is some upgrades in Hertford, as well as US-64 west of Rocky Mount.
^ Either way, signing Norfolk or Raleigh as a control city from either end doesn't seem likely until it becomes a single route (I-87) throughout with no interruption.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 23, 2022, 08:01:51 PM
^ Either way, signing Norfolk or Raleigh as a control city from either end doesn't seem likely until it becomes a single route (I-87) throughout with no interruption.
Yeah, understandable.
Quote from: ran4sh on January 23, 2022, 06:38:46 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 23, 2022, 01:19:08 PM
^ None of those apply to Albany and I-75.
I was referring to the suggestion made/supported by 2 separate other users for cities like Los Angeles to not be posted as a control city within the arbitrary city limit. As mrsman explained, that is not ideal in some cases. I would expand to say that it's not ideal in any case.
Control city designations, at least for directional signs (mileage/distance signs are usually omitted in urban areas when other signs are needed), should continue to a point at which most traffic using that control city will have reached their destination, such as the urbanized city center. At which point the signage should switch to the next city. Alternatively, where a Community Interchanges sign or Next X Exits sign is posted, the city can be considered reached and then the next city can be posted. Not before then, and not based on the city limit.
For Los Angeles, the current signing practice is contributing to the problem that some people don't think the San Fernando Valley neighborhoods are part of Los Angeles, even though around half of the city's population live there. Downtown LA is no longer the primary destination for many people based on commute patterns and traffic maps either; West LA is.
So I agree with mrsman's comment about switching to Downtown xxxx for cities too large to simply switch to the next control city without confusing people.
Quote from: mrsman on January 23, 2022, 06:25:21 PM
Quote from: SeriesE on January 22, 2022, 09:13:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 22, 2022, 05:46:17 PM
Quote from: SeriesE on January 22, 2022, 01:28:28 AM
Los Angeles...when the said freeway/highway is within the city limits of Los Angeles.
You see that in lots of cities. A lot of times it's assumed that "Los Angeles" means "downtown Los Angeles", but nobody but the guy making the sign is going to understand that. If you mean downtown, say downtown. The control city should change to the next one at the city limits.
Completely agreed. It's even worse if the "city center" moved to a different part of the city from decades of development (and therefore is the primary destination for most visitors) and the signs for the city still points towards the old downtown (which few people go anymore).
For smaller cities, I would agree. At city limits, the next control city should be signed.
For larger cities, especially geographically large cities, if you are still far from the central part of town, then the control city should reflect "Central LA" or "Downtown LA" or "LA Civic Center" as the case may be. I would envision these areas to have a specific definition where one can go from one to the other.
I think it should be both. For example, on northbound I-35, when you cross into the OKC city limits at SE 89th Street, you're still about six miles from downtown. So at that point I think the northbound control city should change from "Okla. City" to "Downtown/Wichita". Then once you get past downtown, just "Wichita".
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 24, 2022, 12:13:14 AM
I think it should be both. For example, on northbound I-35, when you cross into the OKC city limits at SE 89th Street, you're still about six miles from downtown. So at that point I think the northbound control city should change from "Okla. City" to "Downtown/Wichita". Then once you get past downtown, just "Wichita".
Since control cities are stacked on top of each other, can't that be easily mistakenly interpreted as "Downtown Wichita" instead of Downtown OKC and Wichita?
Well, you can either have the nearer destination first (Downtown/Wichita) or you can have the further one first and make it less ambiguous (Wichita/Downtown). Or you can do something like "Downtown Okla City" (long, clunky) or "Downtown OKC" (only works for cities that have recognizable abbreviations). Or you could include a technically unnecessary comma ("Downtown,/Wichita").
Quote from: SeriesE on January 23, 2022, 10:57:14 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on January 23, 2022, 06:38:46 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 23, 2022, 01:19:08 PM
^ None of those apply to Albany and I-75.
I was referring to the suggestion made/supported by 2 separate other users for cities like Los Angeles to not be posted as a control city within the arbitrary city limit. As mrsman explained, that is not ideal in some cases. I would expand to say that it's not ideal in any case.
Control city designations, at least for directional signs (mileage/distance signs are usually omitted in urban areas when other signs are needed), should continue to a point at which most traffic using that control city will have reached their destination, such as the urbanized city center. At which point the signage should switch to the next city. Alternatively, where a Community Interchanges sign or Next X Exits sign is posted, the city can be considered reached and then the next city can be posted. Not before then, and not based on the city limit.
For Los Angeles, the current signing practice is contributing to the problem that some people don't think the San Fernando Valley neighborhoods are part of Los Angeles, even though around half of the city's population live there. Downtown LA is no longer the primary destination for many people based on commute patterns and traffic maps either; West LA is.
So I agree with mrsman's comment about switching to Downtown xxxx for cities too large to simply switch to the next control city without confusing people.
That's not a signage problem, that's a problem with people who, for whatever reason, can't or won't determine the actual city limit from a map. Road signage is for drivers, it's not a general reference to determine which points are in what place.
Don't know why Washington is on this but I do get that it is but taking that route vs US 64 and NC 171 (or NC 32) is much quicker.
US-64
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gp2Rbaf3KvNWvKhz5
Also, is Kenly really needed on this sign?
I-795
https://maps.app.goo.gl/pvv7cdc1CpDfSuz96
It definitely goes in an awkward position imo.
Just saw this last week in Phoenix, and sign looks new to me.
On I-10 eastbound, going towards downtown Phoenix, at the new(er) Loop 202 interchange, for I-10 east, it has Tucson. Really? Most of the traffic is going to Central PHX or somewhere else in the area.
I think Loop 202 exit going SE should say Tucson and Downtown Phoenix for 10. Maybe some will complain enough?
"Other Desert Cities" on I-10 in SoCal would look better to me with Palm Springs and Phoenix as the control cities.
"Oregon Coast" at the US 101/US 199 partial interchange could be Brookings and Coos Bay.
Rick
Quote from: US20IL64 on February 08, 2022, 04:39:11 PM
Just saw this last week in Phoenix, and sign looks new to me.
On I-10 eastbound, going towards downtown Phoenix, at the new(er) Loop 202 interchange, for I-10 east, it has Tucson. Really? Most of the traffic is going to Central PHX or somewhere else in the area.
I think Loop 202 exit going SE should say Tucson and Downtown Phoenix for 10. Maybe some will complain enough?
You are right.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4625811,-112.195476,3a,75y,108.71h,93.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjFiuMvhpQO1b0Vi-N3G4aA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
However, the signs from 202 at that interchange have "Phoenix" as the eastbound control.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4552473,-112.1853666,3a,75y,8.69h,86.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbxW-CiXdFNFacXg0gQtg3Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
It seems though to be consistent with how that stretch is signed by ADOT (or city), Tucson would be the better control. The side street entrances in that area have Tucson as the control. While the PHX city limits zig and zag a bit, the western city limit on I-10 is at 83rd Ave. If you are at 83rd Ave or further west, Phoenix is the eastern control. If you are east of 83rd Ave, i.e. already within Phoenix city limits, then Tucson is the control.
And they are all signed very well and clear with BGS on the side street to guide people to eastbound and westbound on-ramps. I wish more of the country would sign on-ramps and destinations from side streets as clearly. [All the nearby sidestreets have a similar design, based on GSV].
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4611668,-112.2032491,3a,37.5y,0.46h,92.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5BX0l4EB61e5WPc89_cbfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
So it is really the sign on 202 that is in error, at least based on what most of the other area signs as placed by ADOT seems to say. "Tucson" is the appropriate control because you are already within the city limits of Phoenix.
And just like the other threads, I believe it would make more sense to have "Downtown Phoenix" as the control for all places that are technically within city limits but are still pretty far from the central city. In my view, every eastbound entrance to I-10 within Phoenix city limits, but west of I-17 should have a "Downtown Phoenix" control instead of "Tucson." In my view, the I-10, and I-17 loop defines Central Phoenix and only once you cross that loop should the next control city (Tucson, Los Angeles, or Flagstaff) be signed. It is too weird to sign beyond Phoenix when you are still in a very suburban part of town.
Some of this makes little to no sense at all.
For this sign I don't know why Burlington is used on it instead of Greensboro, that's silly IMO: https://goo.gl/maps/hDLUjxXj2PWhJwt6A
Also don't understand this one. It should say Durham/Raleigh, because they are two big cities. Kind of childish to just say Durham imo. : https://goo.gl/maps/P23rjSv7QtPbD1d58
Over here has both of them though! https://goo.gl/maps/sRo43y5weLZEhZw48
Edit: funny thing is that when looking at these signs, they say Burlington. https://goo.gl/maps/g7gEmtSnes8waMx78
But when looking at the new signage plans, they will change to Greensboro. Good move. Can't pinpoint why they couldn't do it to the other interchange. Funny to have two different control cities when heading in the same direction.
https://xfer.services.ncdot.gov/dsplan/2021%20Highway%20Letting/03-16-21/Plans%20and%20Proposals/Alamance%20I-5711%2050401.3.GV1%20C204603/Standard%20PDF%20Files/250%20Signing%20Plans.pdf
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 23, 2022, 07:56:59 PM
Also don't understand this one. It should say Durham/Raleigh, because they are two big cities. Kind of childish to just say Durham imo. : https://goo.gl/maps/P23rjSv7QtPbD1d58
Yeah, every time I'm around a child, all I hear out of them is nothing but "Durham! Durham! Durham!", as children are well-known to do.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 16, 2021, 12:23:10 AM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 15, 2021, 10:55:09 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on November 15, 2021, 09:55:02 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 13, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
I-94 in Michigan west of Detroit completely ignores smaller major Michigan municipalities or those with major junctions (ignored both east and west of Detroit, i.e. I-196 in Benton Harbor, I-69 in Marshall, I-696 in Roseville-St. Clair Shores, etc.) it passes through or near on guide signs at major junctions (i.e. Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, etc.) instead opting for either Detroit or Chicago.
Actually, signage at most I-94 interchanges between Marshall and Ann Arbor shows Marshall, Jackson, and Ann Arbor as control cities.
(https://i.imgur.com/OVpxQbs.jpg)
Jackson Road, near Chelsea -- this sign has since been replaced but the control cities have not changed.
Marshall and Ann Arbor are omitted on 94 guide signs at Highway 127 Exit 40 and 43. Jackson is omitted on guide signs for I-94 along US 23. Along I-194/M-66 in Battle Creek, Marshall is omitted for I-94 eastbound. At I-69's first junction with I-94, Jackson is omitted for eastbound I-94.
I said at most interchanges. Great job missing my point.
Well, I did recently take a trip to Illinois along 94, and exiting off, and the signage at most interchanges I exited off at along the way to make stops at did follow what you said. Driving to the Jersey Shore from Michigan wasn't the same story because different routes along the way, and thus, differing control cities. However, along the way, I did go out of my way a bit and went down the open section of the Southern Beltway in the Pittsburgh area, but that is a topic for another forum.
Wouldn't have put Winston-Salem on the right sign since it goes directly through Greensboro. If I was the person deciding the signing plans I would have just put Greensboro on it.
https://goo.gl/maps/Pjs4d9wBv9g5PKfn7
Although there is a ALT sign to go there which I would have always done Imo. More mileage yes but it's exclusively 70 mph.
https://goo.gl/maps/pVjRdicLZWAbwQ1QA
Like there is no Raleigh on the right sign
https://goo.gl/maps/uEaSowh2Ta7kM5Rq5
It isn't a secret that Michigan alternates control cities on I-94 to more local cities when they can and I think it's fine. Chicago does make sense in Detroit because of the volume of Detroit-Chicago traffic. I would say use Ann Arbor and Kalamazoo then Chicago.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 09:05:13 PM
It isn't a secret that Michigan alternates control cities on I-94 to more local cities when they can and I think it's fine. Chicago does make sense in Detroit because of the volume of Detroit-Chicago traffic. I would say use Ann Arbor and Kalamazoo then Chicago.
I noticed this one on I-70 in Indiana: it completely ignores Terre Haute on westbound guide signs in Indianapolis, instead choosing to list St. Louis, even though I-70 passes through extreme southwestern Terre Haute, as well as skipping Dayton on eastbound signs at the split with I-65, instead listing Columbus, even though it skips Indianapolis westbound while in Columbus and between the Dayton area and Columbus. I-70 in Illinois also completely ignores Effingham between there and St. Louis eastbound, instead listing Indianapolis, in spite of I-70's intersection with I-57 in Effingham, and even shares the same roadway as I-57.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/52020193680/in/dateposted-public/
The cities here are not so much worthless as that they really could use more prominent places.
Benson is not needed on the main exit sign, but as discussed in another thread it should have a Benson Next 2 Exits sign approaching this exchange being that the next exit beyond I-95 is for the city grid of Benson anyway. Fayetteville, is more useful to drivers here as its the next big city of size along the route.
Smithfield, although the county seat of the county the interchange lies within and is of decent size, should be on an supplemental sign and either Rocky Mount or Richmond be used instead being those are the next cities of interest heading north on I-95.
Though most people on here digress the fact Benson is used at all on both interstates as a control city in signage, thus including me. I am sure that we all feel that Fayetteville should be I-95 South's control interest from Rocky Mount southward and from Fayetteville northward on I-95 it should be Rocky Mount, Wilson, or Richmond due to the motorists that use the busy interstate. On I-40 it should be Raleigh from Wilmington westward and Wilmington eastward from the I-440 Cliff Benson Beltline.
SDDOT likes to use the immediately adjacent towns as control cities at exits; this leads to silliness like this:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51971707920_17af6a68b8_c.jpg)
Ah yes, the bustling metropolis of Vivian! At least Kennebec is the county seat...
And I see northbound gets Vivian as well, yet nothing at all for the eastbound direction.
US Route meets Interstate: who needs a control city?
Winner makes sense. It's the county seat of Tripp County and also the administrative center of neighboring Todd County, which does not have its own county seat.
Vivian is the one that makes zero sense.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 22, 2022, 01:44:02 PM
Winner makes sense. It's the county seat of Tripp County and also the administrative center of neighboring Todd County, which does not have its own county seat.
Vivian is the one that makes zero sense.
I just got back from a trip through the area. I don't mind control cities like these given where the town centers are actually located.
Actually took a detour into Ong, NE because of a control city sign and wouldn't have without it.
Quote from: Rothman on April 22, 2022, 05:46:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 22, 2022, 01:44:02 PM
Winner makes sense. It's the county seat of Tripp County and also the administrative center of neighboring Todd County, which does not have its own county seat.
Vivian is the one that makes zero sense.
I just got back from a trip through the area. I don't mind control cities like these given where the town centers are actually located.
Actually took a detour into Ong, NE because of a control city sign and wouldn't have without it.
That's the kind of town I love pulling into.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 22, 2022, 01:44:02 PM
Winner makes sense. It's the county seat of Tripp County and also the administrative center of neighboring Todd County, which does not have its own county seat.
Vivian is the one that makes zero sense.
Funny thing is of those three towns, Vivian is the only one I've heard of. Why? It's where the largest hailstone both by diameter (8.0 inches) and weight (1.9375 pounds) fell in a 2010 storm (https://www.weather.gov/abr/vivianhailstone).
Quote from: tolbs17 on March 17, 2022, 05:27:25 PM
Like there is no Raleigh on the right sign
https://goo.gl/maps/uEaSowh2Ta7kM5Rq5
But Martinsville does make sense since that is where I-73 will go. And you have not gone through the heart of Greensboro yet. I got no problem with no Raleigh on THAT sign. However, it could read "Greensboro - Raleigh / Martinsville".
Quote from: US 89 on April 26, 2022, 12:12:30 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 22, 2022, 01:44:02 PM
Winner makes sense. It's the county seat of Tripp County and also the administrative center of neighboring Todd County, which does not have its own county seat.
Vivian is the one that makes zero sense.
Funny thing is of those three towns, Vivian is the only one I've heard of. Why? It's where the largest hailstone both by diameter (8.0 inches) and weight (1.9375 pounds) fell in a 2010 storm (https://www.weather.gov/abr/vivianhailstone).
LOL Vivian is so tiny.
Quote from: US 89 on April 26, 2022, 12:12:30 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 22, 2022, 01:44:02 PM
Winner makes sense. It's the county seat of Tripp County and also the administrative center of neighboring Todd County, which does not have its own county seat.
Vivian is the one that makes zero sense.
Funny thing is of those three towns, Vivian is the only one I've heard of. Why? It's where the largest hailstone both by diameter (8.0 inches) and weight (1.9375 pounds) fell in a 2010 storm (https://www.weather.gov/abr/vivianhailstone).
Why am I not surprised we have that record... the weather out here is insane nonsense.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 14, 2022, 06:54:42 PM
Malvern? Where the hell is Malvern?
(https://i.imgur.com/Pa1ATsq.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5374347,-92.6740442,3a,19.8y,229.5h,96.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D119.9967%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Malvern is now where I am.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em! :-D
(I'm at the Super 8 for the night. It's okay.)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 14, 2022, 12:56:13 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 14, 2022, 06:54:42 PM
Malvern? Where the hell is Malvern?
(https://i.imgur.com/Pa1ATsq.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5374347,-92.6740442,3a,19.8y,229.5h,96.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DC5Zj9BX7oC4NuG9ibHOpgw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D119.9967%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Malvern is now where I am.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em! :-D
(I'm at the Super 8 for the night. It's okay.)
I would have had Hot Springs instead of Malvern even though you have to go 15 miles off I-30. A bit more of an important destination.
Yes, these days control cities are getting too conformed IMO. They should see what the needs are for local folks and figure out what they would like to see as a control destination. Yes uniform signs are consistent, but in some cases they do not help. US 11 & 15 in Enola, PA is one for sure. You have Harrisburg as NB I-81 in which locals NB on the US routes have no use for it as you already passed it on the route. You are in its metro area as well. Hazleton, should now be used as it's next on the list and nearby Wertzville Road should also be changed to that as well as PA 581 ( as that is useless to use anyhow) should be Hazleton as well.
Then again we're talking about PennDOT, the same agency that used Trenton from US 1 in Langhorne for I-95 north until I-295 took over for them to remove it. Plus how long did it take to remove US 1 signs from its now business route in Bucks County to the completed freeway between Oxford Valley and Morrisville? 1990 or 1991 is finally when I-95 guides showed US 1 on the freeway and US 1 Business on its old route when the switch was done in 1987. For those three or four years the Oxford Valley Cloverleaf had US 1 as numberless and Business US 1 was signed for Trenton despite the freeway as being faster.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 15, 2022, 03:46:00 PM
They should see what the needs are for local folks
I disagree. Control cities are important more for out-of-towners than for locals.
From another thread:
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 03, 2014, 10:57:42 PM
Norwood, Maryland. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/commuting/take-the-icc-and-exit-at-norwood--where/2012/01/04/gIQAoo7SfP_story.html) Even the people who live there hadn't heard of it until it appeared on a BGS.
White River Junction from I-89 ramps onto I-91 north. When I see the White River Jct. control on I-91 I think "I-89 junction". So using it as a destination on the ramps from I-89, when WRJ is like less than a mile away, really doesn't make sense; just use St. Johnsbury! Many people on I-89 who want to get to WRJ will use the prior exits anyways.
https://goo.gl/maps/VaKN6c9dR9gSyExA9
Waltham really? Who ever heard of that city? I think Providence would be best for here.
On some I-5 signs at interchanges on the route I-5 intersects with in California, the northbound control city is simply Portland, omitting nearby Oregon locales such as Medford or Grants Pass (where it and US 199 intersect), or even the southernmost large Oregon city along the route (Eugene), among other California localities, even when northbound signs in Oregon show locales such as Ashland, Medford, and Grants Pass before switching to Portland in Grants Pass (although at some junctions signs will show other cities such as Eugene.).
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on December 18, 2022, 01:25:25 AM
On some I-5 signs at interchanges on the route I-5 intersects with in California, the northbound control city is simply Portland, omitting nearby Oregon locales such as Medford or Grants Pass (where it and US 199 intersect), or even the southernmost large Oregon city along the route (Eugene), among other California localities, even when northbound signs in Oregon show locales such as Ashland, Medford, and Grants Pass before switching to Portland in Grants Pass (although at some junctions signs will show other cities such as Eugene.).
Tulsa appears in St. Louis on I-44, yet leave St. Louie and Rolla, Springfield, and Joplin appear before you see Tulsa again.
I drove past these three signs on Saturday, and I've got to say, I wasn't exactly thrilled with their choice for the second line. Not really a control city, but still.
Also, the math doesn't seem quite right...
https://goo.gl/maps/duCDy3HJPZHgAYmC7
https://goo.gl/maps/6VGctjNEW2gYdcmn6
https://goo.gl/maps/L4Xn8PgUYqBzXSP78
On the other hand, here's a legit control city at an exit I took five days earlier, and I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how Ciudad Mier seemed like a better idea than Apodaca or Cadereyta or China or Reynosa or any other town that isn't eighty miles away from highway 40, in another state, and back in the opposite general direction of the traffic facing the sign.
https://goo.gl/maps/Sf3HjyrE8bBfgism6
Quote from: roadman65 on December 18, 2022, 03:25:11 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on December 18, 2022, 01:25:25 AM
On some I-5 signs at interchanges on the route I-5 intersects with in California, the northbound control city is simply Portland, omitting nearby Oregon locales such as Medford or Grants Pass (where it and US 199 intersect), or even the southernmost large Oregon city along the route (Eugene), among other California localities, even when northbound signs in Oregon show locales such as Ashland, Medford, and Grants Pass before switching to Portland in Grants Pass (although at some junctions signs will show other cities such as Eugene.).
Tulsa appears in St. Louis on I-44, yet leave St. Louie and Rolla, Springfield, and Joplin appear before you see Tulsa again.
I have no problem with Joplin. It's a decent sized city at an interstate junction. Using Springfield in St Louis would be confusing with Springfield IL which is closer to St Louis than the Missouri one.
Quote from: kphoger on June 12, 2023, 03:21:48 PM
I drove past these three signs on Saturday, and I've got to say, I wasn't exactly thrilled with their choice for the second line. Not really a control city, but still.
Also, the math doesn't seem quite right...
https://goo.gl/maps/duCDy3HJPZHgAYmC7
https://goo.gl/maps/6VGctjNEW2gYdcmn6
https://goo.gl/maps/L4Xn8PgUYqBzXSP78
On the other hand, here's a legit control city at an exit I took five days earlier, and I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how Ciudad Mier seemed like a better idea than Apodaca or Cadereyta or China or Reynosa or any other town that isn't eighty miles away from highway 40, in another state, and back in the opposite general direction of the traffic facing the sign.
https://goo.gl/maps/Sf3HjyrE8bBfgism6
Van Horn as a control is terrible but historically, it goes back to the days when I-10 was being built and US 90 was the through route. Van Horn is the only town of consequence west of Ft Stockton until you got to El Paso. So I get it as a secondary but this far away from it, VH should not be signed that consistently until you get to Ft Stockton.
From Junction, Ft Stockton is 196 miles. Van Horn is another 119 miles from there and El Paso is 120 from VH. Texas really should have 3 controls on their mileage signs.
https://goo.gl/maps/j9CHXcVoMYwXSyMx6
Using Morristown at this location now is worthless. Now with I-287 nearby, that particular freeway is better suited to get you there.
Considering that the next following exit for Pompton Lakes brings you that particular place there via US 202 anyway, just resign “ Morristown “ with Pompton Lakes on the US 202 guide ( removing it from the second exit) and problem solved.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 25, 2023, 08:45:01 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/j9CHXcVoMYwXSyMx6
Using Morristown at this location now is worthless. Now with I-287 nearby, that particular freeway is better suited to get you there.
Considering that the next following exit for Pompton Lakes brings you that particular place there via US 202 anyway, just resign " Morristown " with Pompton Lakes on the US 202 guide ( removing it from the second exit) and problem solved.
I think the point here is that US-202 south does take you to Morristown.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2023, 08:59:56 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 25, 2023, 08:45:01 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/j9CHXcVoMYwXSyMx6
Using Morristown at this location now is worthless. Now with I-287 nearby, that particular freeway is better suited to get you there.
Considering that the next following exit for Pompton Lakes brings you that particular place there via US 202 anyway, just resign " Morristown " with Pompton Lakes on the US 202 guide ( removing it from the second exit) and problem solved.
I think the point here is that US-202 south does take you to Morristown.
Yeah but I-287 is faster.
Everything on I-80 in Pennsylvania, it just gets worse as it goes on. Stroudsburg? Bloomsburg? Sharon? What are these places. I understand that they may be for historical reasons. But I had never heard of those towns until I looked up I-80's control cities. It's unfortunate because Pennsylvania is ok on I-90, and for the most part they are mid on I-99 as well(Except for all of that Port Matilda stuff, that's gotta go)
Overall, I feel like Pennsylvania can be good if they want to. The tricky thing with a Control City is that you have to make it a safe distance from the previous city that was signed, as well as that city being a major hub for that state. Even L*mon counts.
Sharon is where I-79 meets, but I would use Youngstown from Hazleton west. Then Hazleton east from Ohio to I-81. Then starting at I-81 I would use New York City then into New Jersey. Also, omit New Jersey at Stroudsburg as that’s what’s used there.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 25, 2023, 09:35:43 AM
Everything on I-80 in Pennsylvania, it just gets worse as it goes on. Stroudsburg? Bloomsburg? Sharon? What are these places. I understand that they may be for historical reasons. But I had never heard of those towns until I looked up I-80's control cities. It's unfortunate because Pennsylvania is ok on I-90, and for the most part they are mid on I-99 as well(Except for all of that Port Matilda stuff, that's gotta go)
Overall, I feel like Pennsylvania can be good if they want to. The tricky thing with a Control City is that you have to make it a safe distance from the previous city that was signed, as well as that city being a major hub for that state. Even L*mon counts.
While I agree with you that Pennsylvania's choices for control cities are not great on 80, I think, as you said you were not familiar with those cities previously, part of that is your prospective since you are in the Pacific Northwest. Sharon and Stroudsburg make sense, as in state controls, because of where they are located at each end of the state. The problem you run into with 80 is there are no cities of consequence for the roughly 310 miles within Pennsylvania. You could use State College and Williamsport but both are about 15 miles as the crow flies off of the interstate. Hazelton is another possibility but again is 7 miles off the highway.
In fact, I find it funny that Hazelton is the eastbound control for 80 at I-81 when going south on 81 is quicker.
Signage:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.044034,-76.0203175,3a,52.4y,69.36h,94.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1syPYDMVAzgoJXcH2JzsMXSw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DyPYDMVAzgoJXcH2JzsMXSw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D168.18964%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Map: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hazleton,+PA/@41.0015293,-76.0567019,22449m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c5a4132867b6b1:0x442d01bc719543f4!8m2!3d40.9584181!4d-75.9746472!16zL20vMF80MWY?entry=ttu
My take for I-80's PA control cities: They're fine as secondaries. But for primaries, stick with NYC only eastbound, like what Ohio signs in Youngstown. It's more complicated for westbound, as unlike NYC, neither Youngstown or Cleveland have the status as the nation's largest city to be worth signing 400 miles away. Maybe use a combination of Scranton, State College (well known because of PSU) and Youngstown or Cleveland? I know they're all off the route, but that's as close as you're going to get to I-80 in PA for well-known places; also Williamsport is signed on the mainline at one point.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 25, 2023, 09:42:06 AM
Sharon is where I-79 meets, but I would use Youngstown from Hazleton west. Then Hazleton east from Ohio to I-81. Then starting at I-81 I would use New York City then into New Jersey. Also, omit New Jersey at Stroudsburg as that's what's used there.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 25, 2023, 10:00:26 AM
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 25, 2023, 09:35:43 AM
Everything on I-80 in Pennsylvania, it just gets worse as it goes on. Stroudsburg? Bloomsburg? Sharon? What are these places. I understand that they may be for historical reasons. But I had never heard of those towns until I looked up I-80's control cities. It's unfortunate because Pennsylvania is ok on I-90, and for the most part they are mid on I-99 as well(Except for all of that Port Matilda stuff, that's gotta go)
Overall, I feel like Pennsylvania can be good if they want to. The tricky thing with a Control City is that you have to make it a safe distance from the previous city that was signed, as well as that city being a major hub for that state. Even L*mon counts.
While I agree with you that Pennsylvania's choices for control cities are not great on 80, I think, as you said you were not familiar with those cities previously, part of that is your prospective since you are in the Pacific Northwest. Sharon and Stroudsburg make sense, as in state controls, because of where they are located at each end of the state. The problem you run into with 80 is there are no cities of consequence for the roughly 310 miles within Pennsylvania. You could use State College and Williamsport but both are about 15 miles as the crow flies off of the interstate. Hazelton is another possibility but again is 7 miles off the highway.
In fact, I find it funny that Hazelton is the eastbound control for 80 at I-81 when going south on 81 is quicker.
Signage:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.044034,-76.0203175,3a,52.4y,69.36h,94.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1syPYDMVAzgoJXcH2JzsMXSw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DyPYDMVAzgoJXcH2JzsMXSw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D168.18964%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Map: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hazleton,+PA/@41.0015293,-76.0567019,22449m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c5a4132867b6b1:0x442d01bc719543f4!8m2!3d40.9584181!4d-75.9746472!16zL20vMF80MWY?entry=ttu
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 25, 2023, 10:45:29 AM
My take for I-80's PA control cities: They're fine as secondaries. But for primaries, stick with NYC only eastbound, like what Ohio signs in Youngstown. It's more complicated for westbound, as unlike NYC, neither Youngstown or Cleveland have the status as the nation's largest city to be worth signing 400 miles away. Maybe use a combination of Scranton, State College (well known because of PSU) and Youngstown or Cleveland? I know they're all off the route, but that's as close as you're going to get to I-80 in PA for well-known places; also Williamsport is signed on the mainline at one point.
I agree with SkyPesos, NYC should always be the primary eastbound. Hazleton and State College work as secondaries, both aren't sizable. But are major hubs in their respective areas. State College is also home to Pennsylvania State University so it works even better as a secondary. IMO, State College and NYC should be dual-signed from Youngstown until I-99. For westbound I don't know. Cleveland's too far, Youngstown is closer but isn't a massive sized city like Cleveland is. State College kinda far away on I-99. And Scranton is a major Pennsylvania city but is only 75k people, which is small potatoes compared to Cleveland and especially NYC. It's also off I-80, and to a further extent than State College.
Yeah, I don't really know what to do for westbound I-80. I might post my plans in fictional when I decide. But I don't really know what to choose right now.
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 25, 2023, 10:45:29 AM
My take for I-80's PA control cities: They're fine as secondaries. But for primaries, stick with NYC only eastbound, like what Ohio signs in Youngstown. It's more complicated for westbound, as unlike NYC, neither Youngstown or Cleveland have the status as the nation's largest city to be worth signing 400 miles away. Maybe use a combination of Scranton, State College (well known because of PSU) and Youngstown or Cleveland? I know they're all off the route, but that's as close as you're going to get to I-80 in PA for well-known places; also Williamsport is signed on the mainline at one point.
Yeah I would do Scranton, State College, then Cleveland going westbound from Paterson NJ.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 25, 2023, 11:03:36 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 25, 2023, 09:42:06 AM
Sharon is where I-79 meets, but I would use Youngstown from Hazleton west. Then Hazleton east from Ohio to I-81. Then starting at I-81 I would use New York City then into New Jersey. Also, omit New Jersey at Stroudsburg as that's what's used there.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 25, 2023, 10:00:26 AM
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 25, 2023, 09:35:43 AM
Everything on I-80 in Pennsylvania, it just gets worse as it goes on. Stroudsburg? Bloomsburg? Sharon? What are these places. I understand that they may be for historical reasons. But I had never heard of those towns until I looked up I-80's control cities. It's unfortunate because Pennsylvania is ok on I-90, and for the most part they are mid on I-99 as well(Except for all of that Port Matilda stuff, that's gotta go)
Overall, I feel like Pennsylvania can be good if they want to. The tricky thing with a Control City is that you have to make it a safe distance from the previous city that was signed, as well as that city being a major hub for that state. Even L*mon counts.
While I agree with you that Pennsylvania's choices for control cities are not great on 80, I think, as you said you were not familiar with those cities previously, part of that is your prospective since you are in the Pacific Northwest. Sharon and Stroudsburg make sense, as in state controls, because of where they are located at each end of the state. The problem you run into with 80 is there are no cities of consequence for the roughly 310 miles within Pennsylvania. You could use State College and Williamsport but both are about 15 miles as the crow flies off of the interstate. Hazelton is another possibility but again is 7 miles off the highway.
In fact, I find it funny that Hazelton is the eastbound control for 80 at I-81 when going south on 81 is quicker.
Signage:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.044034,-76.0203175,3a,52.4y,69.36h,94.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1syPYDMVAzgoJXcH2JzsMXSw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DyPYDMVAzgoJXcH2JzsMXSw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D168.18964%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Map: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hazleton,+PA/@41.0015293,-76.0567019,22449m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c5a4132867b6b1:0x442d01bc719543f4!8m2!3d40.9584181!4d-75.9746472!16zL20vMF80MWY?entry=ttu
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 25, 2023, 10:45:29 AM
My take for I-80's PA control cities: They're fine as secondaries. But for primaries, stick with NYC only eastbound, like what Ohio signs in Youngstown. It's more complicated for westbound, as unlike NYC, neither Youngstown or Cleveland have the status as the nation's largest city to be worth signing 400 miles away. Maybe use a combination of Scranton, State College (well known because of PSU) and Youngstown or Cleveland? I know they're all off the route, but that's as close as you're going to get to I-80 in PA for well-known places; also Williamsport is signed on the mainline at one point.
I agree with SkyPesos, NYC should always be the primary eastbound. Hazleton and State College work as secondaries, both aren't sizable. But are major hubs in their respective areas. State College is also home to Pennsylvania State University so it works even better as a secondary. IMO, State College and NYC should be dual-signed from Youngstown until I-99. For westbound I don't know. Cleveland's too far, Youngstown is closer but isn't a massive sized city like Cleveland is. State College kinda far away on I-99. And Scranton is a major Pennsylvania city but is only 75k people, which is small potatoes compared to Cleveland and especially NYC. It's also off I-80, and to a further extent than State College.
Yeah, I don't really know what to do for westbound I-80. I might post my plans in fictional when I decide. But I don't really know what to choose right now.
Personally, eastbound I would have NYC as the primary and State College, Hazleton and Stroudsburg as the secondaries. Westbound, I would sign Cleveland as the primary from the George Washington Bridge with Patterson, Scranton, State College and Younstown as the secondaries.
I have always thought that secondaries do need to be signed with primaries at the very least on the mileage signs.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 25, 2023, 09:05:35 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2023, 08:59:56 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 25, 2023, 08:45:01 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/j9CHXcVoMYwXSyMx6
Using Morristown at this location now is worthless. Now with I-287 nearby, that particular freeway is better suited to get you there.
Considering that the next following exit for Pompton Lakes brings you that particular place there via US 202 anyway, just resign " Morristown " with Pompton Lakes on the US 202 guide ( removing it from the second exit) and problem solved.
I think the point here is that US-202 south does take you to Morristown.
Yeah but I-287 is faster.
That might be true but my point is that you will get to Morristown by taking US-202 as well. Might take longer but you'll still get there.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 25, 2023, 11:21:31 AM
Personally, eastbound I would have NYC as the primary and State College, Hazleton and Stroudsburg as the secondaries. Westbound, I would sign Cleveland as the primary from the George Washington Bridge with Patterson, Scranton, State College and Younstown as the secondaries.
I have always thought that secondaries do need to be signed with primaries at the very least on the mileage signs.
[/quote]
Williamsport should probably be mentioned westbound. It's kinda big and by Pennsylvania standards pretty big. Plus it's got it's own spur route. I'm fine with not signing it eastbound because I-99 will take you there. Wonder how Shuster feels about having his interstate criticized for having bad control cities. If he didn't choose Tyrone and Port Matilda as control cities, and didn't make it I-99, maybe his interstate would be better respected.
I don't get why in Allentown, I-78 doesn't use New York on its control signage. Instead it uses either Bethlehem or New Jersey. It's not until Bethlehem on PA 33 that New York is used.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 25, 2023, 09:35:43 AM
Everything on I-80 in Pennsylvania, it just gets worse as it goes on. Stroudsburg? Bloomsburg? Sharon? What are these places. I understand that they may be for historical reasons. But I had never heard of those towns until I looked up I-80's control cities. It's unfortunate because Pennsylvania is ok on I-90, and for the most part they are mid on I-99 as well(Except for all of that Port Matilda stuff, that's gotta go)
Overall, I feel like Pennsylvania can be good if they want to. The tricky thing with a Control City is that you have to make it a safe distance from the previous city that was signed, as well as that city being a major hub for that state. Even L*mon counts.
I've heard of all three of those cities and I'm not in Pennsylvania on a regular basis at all. I-90 is barely in PA compared to I-80 as I-90 is only in the state for 45 miles and I-80 is in the state for 310 miles. I agree with making the distance between control cities a good distance apart and Limon is a hub city in Colorado despite it's size.
With just I-75's examples in Michigan starting in the Soo you have St. Ignace, Mackinac Bridge, Saginaw, Flint, Detroit and Toledo. The problem with I-80 in Pennsylvania is that it's 310 miles across the state and passes through a lot of smaller cities I think that the DOT's try to use cities in their own state as much as possible. I would have just gone with New York City for EB and Youngstown, OH for WB. A good control city is a city where most of the traffic is heading and a city of at least 50,000 people I think anyway.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 25, 2023, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 25, 2023, 11:21:31 AM
Personally, eastbound I would have NYC as the primary and State College, Hazleton and Stroudsburg as the secondaries. Westbound, I would sign Cleveland as the primary from the George Washington Bridge with Patterson, Scranton, State College and Younstown as the secondaries.
I have always thought that secondaries do need to be signed with primaries at the very least on the mileage signs.
Williamsport should probably be mentioned westbound. It's kinda big and by Pennsylvania standards pretty big. Plus it's got it's own spur route. I'm fine with not signing it eastbound because I-99 will take you there. Wonder how Shuster feels about having his interstate criticized for having bad control cities. If he didn't choose Tyrone and Port Matilda as control cities, and didn't make it I-99, maybe his interstate would be better respected.
[/quote]
If you are talking about Cleveland, Ohio I think that's too far. Cleveland is 460 miles from the GWB and two states away, also I-80 never even enters Cleveland it comes closest at about 2 miles from the city limits and about 15 miles to downtown and then most people probably aren't headed to Cleveland from NYC.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2023, 11:44:28 AM
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 25, 2023, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 25, 2023, 11:21:31 AM
Personally, eastbound I would have NYC as the primary and State College, Hazleton and Stroudsburg as the secondaries. Westbound, I would sign Cleveland as the primary from the George Washington Bridge with Patterson, Scranton, State College and Younstown as the secondaries.
I have always thought that secondaries do need to be signed with primaries at the very least on the mileage signs.
Williamsport should probably be mentioned westbound. It's kinda big and by Pennsylvania standards pretty big. Plus it's got it's own spur route. I'm fine with not signing it eastbound because I-99 will take you there. Wonder how Shuster feels about having his interstate criticized for having bad control cities. If he didn't choose Tyrone and Port Matilda as control cities, and didn't make it I-99, maybe his interstate would be better respected.
If you are talking about Cleveland, Ohio I think that's too far. Cleveland is 460 miles from the GWB and two states away, also I-80 never even enters Cleveland it comes closest at about 2 miles from the city limits and about 15 miles to downtown and then most people probably aren't headed to Cleveland from NYC.
[/quote]
But if you use Cleveland, people will realize that it is more of a gateway to the rest of the big metros on the Great Lakes. Detroit, Chicago and Milwaukee bound traffic would have to bypass Cleveland. And besides, I-480 is the direct feed into the city. That's why I would use it from the GWB.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 26, 2023, 10:01:12 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2023, 11:44:28 AM
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 25, 2023, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 25, 2023, 11:21:31 AM
Personally, eastbound I would have NYC as the primary and State College, Hazleton and Stroudsburg as the secondaries. Westbound, I would sign Cleveland as the primary from the George Washington Bridge with Patterson, Scranton, State College and Younstown as the secondaries.
I have always thought that secondaries do need to be signed with primaries at the very least on the mileage signs.
Williamsport should probably be mentioned westbound. It's kinda big and by Pennsylvania standards pretty big. Plus it's got it's own spur route. I'm fine with not signing it eastbound because I-99 will take you there. Wonder how Shuster feels about having his interstate criticized for having bad control cities. If he didn't choose Tyrone and Port Matilda as control cities, and didn't make it I-99, maybe his interstate would be better respected.
If you are talking about Cleveland, Ohio I think that's too far. Cleveland is 460 miles from the GWB and two states away, also I-80 never even enters Cleveland it comes closest at about 2 miles from the city limits and about 15 miles to downtown and then most people probably aren't headed to Cleveland from NYC.
But if you use Cleveland, people will realize that it is more of a gateway to the rest of the big metros on the Great Lakes. Detroit, Chicago and Milwaukee bound traffic would have to bypass Cleveland. And besides, I-480 is the direct feed into the city. That's why I would use it from the GWB.
[/quote]
In my opinion, I think State College/Scranton should be used out of NYC, then State College/Cleveland past I-380. Scranton, being one of PA's largest cities, should be on the bottom line on all mileage signs and pull-throughs until the junction with I-380. Then I don't really know from there, State College/Cleveland or State College/Youngstown?
New York and San Francisco
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 26, 2023, 05:18:08 PM
New York and San Francisco
don't comment things that don't add to the conversation
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 26, 2023, 07:20:21 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 26, 2023, 05:18:08 PM
New York and San Francisco
don't comment things that don't add to the conversation
You mean like your comment? I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to PNWRoadgeek.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 26, 2023, 05:18:08 PM
New York and San Francisco
New York is correct going eastbound. San Francisco signed from 3,000 miles away though... When Cleveland is much closer and just a little bit smaller.. Yeah, Cleveland works.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 27, 2023, 09:13:55 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 26, 2023, 05:18:08 PM
New York and San Francisco
New York is correct going eastbound. San Francisco signed from 3,000 miles away though... When Cleveland is much closer and just a little bit smaller.. Yeah, Cleveland works.
It'd be fine if you put like Cleveland, OH on it maybe. The problem is I-80 in Pennsylvania has a lot of small cities it goes through nothing really big and I'm not even sure of the biggest city it actually goes through either. I was joking about San Francisco but it would be ok since I-80 goes there, at one time it was suggested that I-75 have the control cities of Sault Ste. Marie and Miami.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2023, 09:42:57 AM
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 27, 2023, 09:13:55 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 26, 2023, 05:18:08 PM
New York and San Francisco
New York is correct going eastbound. San Francisco signed from 3,000 miles away though... When Cleveland is much closer and just a little bit smaller.. Yeah, Cleveland works.
It'd be fine if you put like Cleveland, OH on it maybe. The problem is I-80 in Pennsylvania has a lot of small cities it goes through nothing really big and I'm not even sure of the biggest city it actually goes through either. I was joking about San Francisco but it would be ok since I-80 goes there, at one time it was suggested that I-75 have the control cities of Sault Ste. Marie and Miami.
The biggest city that I-80 actually goes through is either Sharon or Bloomsburg, it doesn't directly go through Hazleton(Which is bigger than both of those two places)but it serves Hazleton via I-81. Cleveland OH I guess could work? But most people traveling west on I-80 from NYC or PA probably know which state Cleveland is in, I think Scranton out of NYC, then State College, then Cleveland. However, Cleveland should always be the last line city on mileage signs.
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5982474,-79.1060745,3a,15y,232.43h,89.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYYaMBqlqliKSSJa8-I-E2w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Not necessarily a 'worthless' control city, but at the I-74/95 interchange in NC, I feel like Charlotte should get a mention for westbound traffic. If not a control city, maybe a supplementary sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7897874,-78.7677913,3a,35y,245.63h,98.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siS34BLJ7m6btJJqn18YG4Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Meanwhile in the Myrtle Beach area, westbound SC 22 has Conway as the control city for most of it's length. Since the highway is supposed to be the Conway Bypass, I feel like either Marion or Florence, SC would be better since the whole idea of SC 22 was to encourage tourists off of US 501. I would also replace TO US 501 with TO I-95 in the signage at US 17.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on July 27, 2023, 11:55:17 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5982474,-79.1060745,3a,15y,232.43h,89.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYYaMBqlqliKSSJa8-I-E2w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Not necessarily a 'worthless' control city, but at the I-74/95 interchange in NC, I feel like Charlotte should get a mention for westbound traffic. If not a control city, maybe a supplementary sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7897874,-78.7677913,3a,35y,245.63h,98.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siS34BLJ7m6btJJqn18YG4Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Meanwhile in the Myrtle Beach area, westbound SC 22 has Conway as the control city for most of it's length. Since the highway is supposed to be the Conway Bypass, I feel like either Marion or Florence, SC would be better since the whole idea of SC 22 was to encourage tourists off of US 501. I would also replace TO US 501 with TO I-95 in the signage at US 17.
Charlotte and Rockingham should be the control cities there. Laurinburg is useless for long distance, anyone who knows where Laurinburg is also knows where Rockingham is.
OhioDOT generally is pretty good with control cities, but they have a couple of worthless ones:
Marietta (https://goo.gl/maps/KtbyCyHp4txFQXni6) for I-77 SB (https://goo.gl/maps/MfyuhaUAuVse3pTv8) south of Canton (https://goo.gl/maps/NtUtKDgFqmqX4KBN9): I would go straight to Charleston WV, but Parkersburg (4th largest city in WV, somewhat close to Marietta, junction with US 50/Corridor D) is ok too. Cambridge should be skipped as it is now; way too many expressway diagonal routes in this area that long distance traffic that would've used the ramps to I-70 otherwise are using the diagonal routes.
Barberton (https://goo.gl/maps/cCNWAJRhK8JRPwqP6) and Lodi (https://goo.gl/maps/D9UWGuWpm3r2oEtU6) on I-76 WB from Akron. Barberton is dumb as it's a suburb of Akron, and Lodi is signed only because it's where I-76 ends at I-71. Replace both cities with Columbus, as the dominant movement past its terminus is to I-71 SB.
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 28, 2023, 08:52:17 AM
Marietta (https://goo.gl/maps/KtbyCyHp4txFQXni6) for I-77 SB (https://goo.gl/maps/MfyuhaUAuVse3pTv8) south of Canton (https://goo.gl/maps/NtUtKDgFqmqX4KBN9): I would go straight to Charleston WV, but Parkersburg (4th largest city in WV, somewhat close to Marietta, junction with US 50/Corridor D) is ok too. Cambridge should be skipped as it is now; way too many expressway diagonal routes in this area that long distance traffic that would've used the ramps to I-70 otherwise are using the diagonal routes.
Marietta is signed because it's the oldest city in Ohio. But I agree, I would sign Charleston out of Canton because it's the largest city in WV and there are 2 interstate junctions. However, only the one with I-64 would be useful, considering it could take you to Louisville. But I don't know if that's the fastest route.
Another worthless control city is Ellensburg out of Yakima on I-82 north.
Yes, I know, we meet I-90. But Seattle, is a big place. And if I-90 is signing it west of Spokane, I-82 should probably be signing Seattle out of Yakima instead of Ellensburg, which is sizable but Seattle is 30 times bigger or something like that. So signing Ellensburg out of Yakima instead of Seattle is just horrible. Also, from Boise you should be taking I-82 to get to Seattle. And the fact that I-82 isn't even signing it the entire way is beyond me. Maybe it's signed on mileage signs but I really am not going to waste my time trying to find one.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 28, 2023, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 28, 2023, 08:52:17 AM
Marietta (https://goo.gl/maps/KtbyCyHp4txFQXni6) for I-77 SB (https://goo.gl/maps/MfyuhaUAuVse3pTv8) south of Canton (https://goo.gl/maps/NtUtKDgFqmqX4KBN9): I would go straight to Charleston WV, but Parkersburg (4th largest city in WV, somewhat close to Marietta, junction with US 50/Corridor D) is ok too. Cambridge should be skipped as it is now; way too many expressway diagonal routes in this area that long distance traffic that would've used the ramps to I-70 otherwise are using the diagonal routes.
Marietta is signed because it's the oldest city in Ohio. But I agree, I would sign Charleston out of Canton because it's the largest city in WV and there are 2 interstate junctions. However, only the one with I-64 would be useful, considering it could take you to Louisville. But I don't know if that's the fastest route.
Another worthless control city is Ellensburg out of Yakima on I-82 north.
Yes, I know, we meet I-90. But Seattle, is a big place. And if I-90 is signing it west of Spokane, I-82 should probably be signing Seattle out of Yakima instead of Ellensburg, which is sizable but Seattle is 30 times bigger or something like that. So signing Ellensburg out of Yakima instead of Seattle is just horrible. Also, from Boise you should be taking I-82 to get to Seattle. And the fact that I-82 isn't even signing it the entire way is beyond me. Maybe it's signed on mileage signs but I really am not going to waste my time trying to find one.
A lot of signing practices stem from the days when people weren't driving 300+ mile trips half as much as they do now.
US 24 between Toledo and Fort Wayne sticks out to me as for the control cities along it. I understand in Ohio the standard practice is to have the next county seat as the control city for US and State routes, so I get Napoleon and Defiance, OH being control cities. But going west past Defiance, Antwerp, OH becomes the control city in Ohio.
And in Fort Wayne, US 24 has no control city (on signage at the I-469 interchange).
Give the impression that Indiana and Ohio like to pretend the other doesn't exist.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 26, 2023, 10:20:27 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 26, 2023, 10:01:12 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2023, 11:44:28 AM
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on July 25, 2023, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 25, 2023, 11:21:31 AM
Personally, eastbound I would have NYC as the primary and State College, Hazleton and Stroudsburg as the secondaries. Westbound, I would sign Cleveland as the primary from the George Washington Bridge with Patterson, Scranton, State College and Younstown as the secondaries.
I have always thought that secondaries do need to be signed with primaries at the very least on the mileage signs.
Williamsport should probably be mentioned westbound. It's kinda big and by Pennsylvania standards pretty big. Plus it's got it's own spur route. I'm fine with not signing it eastbound because I-99 will take you there. Wonder how Shuster feels about having his interstate criticized for having bad control cities. If he didn't choose Tyrone and Port Matilda as control cities, and didn't make it I-99, maybe his interstate would be better respected.
If you are talking about Cleveland, Ohio I think that's too far. Cleveland is 460 miles from the GWB and two states away, also I-80 never even enters Cleveland it comes closest at about 2 miles from the city limits and about 15 miles to downtown and then most people probably aren't headed to Cleveland from NYC.
But if you use Cleveland, people will realize that it is more of a gateway to the rest of the big metros on the Great Lakes. Detroit, Chicago and Milwaukee bound traffic would have to bypass Cleveland. And besides, I-480 is the direct feed into the city. That's why I would use it from the GWB.
In my opinion, I think State College/Scranton should be used out of NYC, then State College/Cleveland past I-380. Scranton, being one of PA's largest cities, should be on the bottom line on all mileage signs and pull-throughs until the junction with I-380. Then I don't really know from there, State College/Cleveland or State College/Youngstown?
[/quote]
Many of the PA choices aren't even good as secondaries.
Eastbound from Elyria, OH (90/80 split west of Cleveland): Youngstown/NYC, Sharon/NYC, Du Bois/NYC, State College/NYC, Hazleton/NYC, Stroudsburg/NYC, New York City
Westbound from I-95: Paterson/Scranton, Parsippany/Scranton, Netcong/Scranton, Stroudsburg/Scranton, Scranton/Cleveland, Hazleton/Cleveland, State College/Cleveland, Du Bois/Cleveland, Sharon/Cleveland, Youngstown/Cleveland, Cleveland
Delaware Water Gap is a bad control since it can be confused with the state of Delaware on a wrong turn from NJTP. It should be completely removed from signage except for the immediate exit into the town.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on July 28, 2023, 03:34:27 PM
US 24 between Toledo and Fort Wayne sticks out to me as for the control cities along it. I understand in Ohio the standard practice is to have the next county seat as the control city for US and State routes, so I get Napoleon and Defiance, OH being control cities. But going west past Defiance, Antwerp, OH becomes the control city in Ohio.
And in Fort Wayne, US 24 has no control city (on signage at the I-469 interchange).
Give the impression that Indiana and Ohio like to pretend the other doesn't exist.
On that road only Toledo and Fort Wayne should be used
How I-80 in PA should look
Eastbound
OH - I-99: State College
I-99 - US 220: Williamsport
US 220 - I-81: Scranton/NYC
From I-81 East: NYC
Westbound
To I-380: Scranton
I-380 - I-180: Williamsport
I-180 - I-99: State College
I-99 - OH: Youngstown (also Cleveland at I-79 and I-376 junctions)
Quote from: PColumbus73 on July 28, 2023, 03:34:27 PM
US 24 between Toledo and Fort Wayne sticks out to me as for the control cities along it. I understand in Ohio the standard practice is to have the next county seat as the control city for US and State routes, so I get Napoleon and Defiance, OH being control cities. But going west past Defiance, Antwerp, OH becomes the control city in Ohio.
And in Fort Wayne, US 24 has no control city (on signage at the I-469 interchange).
Give the impression that Indiana and Ohio like to pretend the other doesn't exist.
Ohio does a terrible job with control cities on non-interstate expressways in general. US 35 is a well-used route between the Midwest and Carolinas (even has a higher AADT than I-77 at their respective Ohio River crossings), yet uses every small town on the route as a control city. Should use nothing besides Dayton, Chillicothe and Charleston WV
Quote from: PColumbus73 on July 28, 2023, 03:34:27 PM
US 24 between Toledo and Fort Wayne sticks out to me as for the control cities along it. I understand in Ohio the standard practice is to have the next county seat as the control city for US and State routes, so I get Napoleon and Defiance, OH being control cities. But going west past Defiance, Antwerp, OH becomes the control city in Ohio.
And in Fort Wayne, US 24 has no control city (on signage at the I-469 interchange).
Give the impression that Indiana and Ohio like to pretend the other doesn't exist.
Toledo does appear on some signage along US 24 in Indiana as an eastbound control, with Defiance at one and only one spot at SR 101.
It's a crime that it's not signed off of I-469. My thinking is that they also have Rose Avenue (the stretch of road to the west of the interchange) signed as well. And you just CAN'T sign a street and a control city on the same sign, so Rose Avenue gets to stay. That's why you don't see Toledo.
Westbound from US 23 in Toledo Fort Wayne should be signed, but they can keep the county seats at the smaller interchange signs and leave Fort Wayne at the bottom line on mileage signs.
Quote from: tdindy88 on July 29, 2023, 12:08:08 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on July 28, 2023, 03:34:27 PM
US 24 between Toledo and Fort Wayne sticks out to me as for the control cities along it. I understand in Ohio the standard practice is to have the next county seat as the control city for US and State routes, so I get Napoleon and Defiance, OH being control cities. But going west past Defiance, Antwerp, OH becomes the control city in Ohio.
And in Fort Wayne, US 24 has no control city (on signage at the I-469 interchange).
Give the impression that Indiana and Ohio like to pretend the other doesn't exist.
Toledo does appear on some signage along US 24 in Indiana as an eastbound control, with Defiance at one and only one spot at SR 101.
It's a crime that it's not signed off of I-469. My thinking is that they also have Rose Avenue (the stretch of road to the west of the interchange) signed as well. And you just CAN'T sign a street and a control city on the same sign, so Rose Avenue gets to stay. That's why you don't see Toledo.
Westbound from US 23 in Toledo Fort Wayne should be signed, but they can keep the county seats at the smaller interchange signs and leave Fort Wayne at the bottom line on mileage signs.
Well, they are practicing defiance. :colorful: :spin:
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on March 15, 2016, 11:10:01 PM
In SoCal: Hollywood as a control city on the 170 south, Los Angeles and Artesia as control cities on the 91 west, Anaheim as a control city on the 55 north, South County as a control city on the 241, Santa Margarita as a control city on the 241 and 133.
This has to be similar to how control cities are assigned in Sacramento area, CA-99 South has Fresno as the control city and I-5 South is assigned to Los Angeles.
I will die on my hill that "Sacramento" is a terrible control city for the 405. Yes, it provides indirect access to Sacramento. But so does I-805 by that logic. There are also plenty of closer cities that could be listed: Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton. Sacramento is fine for a control city, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense for the 405.
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 06:08:33 PM
I will die on my hill that "Sacramento" is a terrible control city for the 405. Yes, it provides indirect access to Sacramento. But so does I-805 by that logic. There are also plenty of closer cities that could be listed: Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton. Sacramento is fine for a control city, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense for the 405.
How about Santa Clarita? The 405 already has Santa Monica, LAX and Long Beach as controls, would it hurt to keep it more suburban? And Santa Clarita is relatively close to the northern end of the 405.
Quote from: tdindy88 on July 29, 2023, 06:35:46 PM
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 06:08:33 PM
I will die on my hill that "Sacramento" is a terrible control city for the 405. Yes, it provides indirect access to Sacramento. But so does I-805 by that logic. There are also plenty of closer cities that could be listed: Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton. Sacramento is fine for a control city, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense for the 405.
How about Santa Clarita? The 405 already has Santa Monica, LAX and Long Beach as controls, would it hurt to keep it more suburban? And Santa Clarita is relatively close to the northern end of the 405.
Fine with me. Better than Sacramento.
Quote from: Big John on July 29, 2023, 12:26:59 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on July 29, 2023, 12:08:08 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on July 28, 2023, 03:34:27 PM
US 24 between Toledo and Fort Wayne sticks out to me as for the control cities along it. I understand in Ohio the standard practice is to have the next county seat as the control city for US and State routes, so I get Napoleon and Defiance, OH being control cities. But going west past Defiance, Antwerp, OH becomes the control city in Ohio.
And in Fort Wayne, US 24 has no control city (on signage at the I-469 interchange).
Give the impression that Indiana and Ohio like to pretend the other doesn't exist.
Toledo does appear on some signage along US 24 in Indiana as an eastbound control, with Defiance at one and only one spot at SR 101.
It's a crime that it's not signed off of I-469. My thinking is that they also have Rose Avenue (the stretch of road to the west of the interchange) signed as well. And you just CAN'T sign a street and a control city on the same sign, so Rose Avenue gets to stay. That's why you don't see Toledo.
Westbound from US 23 in Toledo Fort Wayne should be signed, but they can keep the county seats at the smaller interchange signs and leave Fort Wayne at the bottom line on mileage signs.
Well, they are practicing defiance. :colorful: :spin:
While reminiscing about Napoleon :-D
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 07:02:25 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on July 29, 2023, 06:35:46 PM
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 06:08:33 PM
I will die on my hill that "Sacramento" is a terrible control city for the 405. Yes, it provides indirect access to Sacramento. But so does I-805 by that logic. There are also plenty of closer cities that could be listed: Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton. Sacramento is fine for a control city, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense for the 405.
How about Santa Clarita? The 405 already has Santa Monica, LAX and Long Beach as controls, would it hurt to keep it more suburban? And Santa Clarita is relatively close to the northern end of the 405.
Fine with me. Better than Sacramento.
There's an argument to be made that Irvine, a giant suburb on one end of the 405 (300k population), and Santa Clarita, a giant exurb on the other end (225k), are not only great control cities for the 405, but the 5 as well.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 31, 2023, 04:18:46 PM
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 07:02:25 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on July 29, 2023, 06:35:46 PM
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 06:08:33 PM
I will die on my hill that "Sacramento" is a terrible control city for the 405. Yes, it provides indirect access to Sacramento. But so does I-805 by that logic. There are also plenty of closer cities that could be listed: Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton. Sacramento is fine for a control city, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense for the 405.
How about Santa Clarita? The 405 already has Santa Monica, LAX and Long Beach as controls, would it hurt to keep it more suburban? And Santa Clarita is relatively close to the northern end of the 405.
Fine with me. Better than Sacramento.
There's an argument to be made that Irvine, a giant suburb on one end of the 405 (300k population), and Santa Clarita, a giant exurb on the other end (225k), are not only great control cities for the 405, but the 5 as well.
I prefer keeping off suburbs. I-5 south of LA should be San Diego and north of LA Sacramento/San Francisco
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 06:08:33 PM
I will die on my hill that "Sacramento" is a terrible control city for the 405. Yes, it provides indirect access to Sacramento. But so does I-805 by that logic. There are also plenty of closer cities that could be listed: Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton. Sacramento is fine for a control city, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense for the 405.
I agree with this point. Sacramento is a terrible control city anywhere that far south. There are a lot of notable places in the Central Valley that are accessible from I-5 that should get control city status: Bakersfield, Modesto, and Stockton are big enough on their own. There's also the argument that San Francisco or Oakland could work as a control city since it's the quickest way there from Los Angeles. Sacramento is one of the worst possible options for I-5 in LA.
Ignoring almost the entirety of the Central Valley makes no sense.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 31, 2023, 11:47:04 PM
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 06:08:33 PM
I will die on my hill that "Sacramento" is a terrible control city for the 405. Yes, it provides indirect access to Sacramento. But so does I-805 by that logic. There are also plenty of closer cities that could be listed: Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton. Sacramento is fine for a control city, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense for the 405.
I agree with this point. Sacramento is a terrible control city anywhere that far south. There are a lot of notable places in the Central Valley that are accessible from I-5 that should get control city status: Bakersfield, Modesto, and Stockton are big enough on their own. There's also the argument that San Francisco or Oakland could work as a control city since it's the quickest way there from Los Angeles. Sacramento is one of the worst possible options for I-5 in LA.
Ignoring almost the entirety of the Central Valley makes no sense.
(By the way, I completely agree with your point) That's because the local Caltrans district doesn't want to sign indirect control cities. When I-5 used to be US-99, the northbound control city was Bakersfield
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 31, 2023, 11:47:04 PM
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 06:08:33 PM
I will die on my hill that "Sacramento" is a terrible control city for the 405. Yes, it provides indirect access to Sacramento. But so does I-805 by that logic. There are also plenty of closer cities that could be listed: Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton. Sacramento is fine for a control city, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense for the 405.
I agree with this point. Sacramento is a terrible control city anywhere that far south. There are a lot of notable places in the Central Valley that are accessible from I-5 that should get control city status: Bakersfield, Modesto, and Stockton are big enough on their own. There's also the argument that San Francisco or Oakland could work as a control city since it's the quickest way there from Los Angeles. Sacramento is one of the worst possible options for I-5 in LA.
Ignoring almost the entirety of the Central Valley makes no sense.
I think to what SeriesE was saying, it has to do with those cities being indirectly accessed even by I-5. I think for I-405, any control city that is closer to Sacramento and also directly reached by I-5 would be ideal. Santa Clarita would probably be the best immediate choice. Stockton is a little closer than Sacramento. Castaic could even work in a more historical sense, and it's also at the tail end of Santa Clarita.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 31, 2023, 11:47:04 PM
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 06:08:33 PM
I will die on my hill that "Sacramento" is a terrible control city for the 405. Yes, it provides indirect access to Sacramento. But so does I-805 by that logic. There are also plenty of closer cities that could be listed: Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton. Sacramento is fine for a control city, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense for the 405.
I agree with this point. Sacramento is a terrible control city anywhere that far south. There are a lot of notable places in the Central Valley that are accessible from I-5 that should get control city status: Bakersfield, Modesto, and Stockton are big enough on their own. There's also the argument that San Francisco or Oakland could work as a control city since it's the quickest way there from Los Angeles. Sacramento is one of the worst possible options for I-5 in LA.
Ignoring almost the entirety of the Central Valley makes no sense.
Sacramento is bigger than Bakersfield and any other central valley cities, plus those cities aren't on I-5.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 31, 2023, 11:18:06 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 31, 2023, 04:18:46 PM
There's an argument to be made that Irvine, a giant suburb on one end of the 405 (300k population), and Santa Clarita, a giant exurb on the other end (225k), are not only great control cities for the 405, but the 5 as well.
I prefer keeping off suburbs. I-5 south of LA should be San Diego and north of LA Sacramento/San Francisco
Irvine is already being used on portions of I-405 south (with San Diego) around CA-22. Irvine blurs the line between suburb and satellite city - it's a major employment and retail center as well as home to a UC campus.
IMO, the modern purpose of control cities is to provide guidance to people not using GPS, or to provide reinforcement to those who are. By and large, locals do not need control cities - so controls that aren't termini or major junctions should be selected on where non-local people (i.e. tourists) are going, directly or indirectly. If you're visiting L.A. and taking I-5 south, it is most likely you're heading to Anaheim or San Diego - those should be the controls. I-5 north, you're most likely going to Sacramento or San Francisco. In that vein, US-101 out of L.A./Hollywood should be signed for Santa Barbara (instead of Ventura). Secondary controls are fine (I'm always in favor of two controls per sign).
Quote from: DTComposer on August 01, 2023, 07:00:11 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 31, 2023, 11:18:06 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 31, 2023, 04:18:46 PM
There's an argument to be made that Irvine, a giant suburb on one end of the 405 (300k population), and Santa Clarita, a giant exurb on the other end (225k), are not only great control cities for the 405, but the 5 as well.
I prefer keeping off suburbs. I-5 south of LA should be San Diego and north of LA Sacramento/San Francisco
Irvine is already being used on portions of I-405 south (with San Diego) around CA-22. Irvine blurs the line between suburb and satellite city - it's a major employment and retail center as well as home to a UC campus.
IMO, the modern purpose of control cities is to provide guidance to people not using GPS, or to provide reinforcement to those who are. By and large, locals do not need control cities - so controls that aren't termini or major junctions should be selected on where non-local people (i.e. tourists) are going, directly or indirectly. If you're visiting L.A. and taking I-5 south, it is most likely you're heading to Anaheim or San Diego - those should be the controls. I-5 north, you're most likely going to Sacramento or San Francisco. In that vein, US-101 out of L.A./Hollywood should be signed for Santa Barbara (instead of Ventura). Secondary controls are fine (I'm always in favor of two controls per sign).
Irvine is only on the I-405 signs in Orange County because they (District 12) want to have their county represented on signs (see also I-5 northbound for Santa Ana where it used to say Los Angeles within OC limits) - LA county (District 7) doesn't care and signs San Diego only
Quote from: SeriesE on August 01, 2023, 08:10:08 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on August 01, 2023, 07:00:11 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 31, 2023, 11:18:06 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 31, 2023, 04:18:46 PM
There's an argument to be made that Irvine, a giant suburb on one end of the 405 (300k population), and Santa Clarita, a giant exurb on the other end (225k), are not only great control cities for the 405, but the 5 as well.
I prefer keeping off suburbs. I-5 south of LA should be San Diego and north of LA Sacramento/San Francisco
Irvine is already being used on portions of I-405 south (with San Diego) around CA-22. Irvine blurs the line between suburb and satellite city - it's a major employment and retail center as well as home to a UC campus.
IMO, the modern purpose of control cities is to provide guidance to people not using GPS, or to provide reinforcement to those who are. By and large, locals do not need control cities - so controls that aren't termini or major junctions should be selected on where non-local people (i.e. tourists) are going, directly or indirectly. If you're visiting L.A. and taking I-5 south, it is most likely you're heading to Anaheim or San Diego - those should be the controls. I-5 north, you're most likely going to Sacramento or San Francisco. In that vein, US-101 out of L.A./Hollywood should be signed for Santa Barbara (instead of Ventura). Secondary controls are fine (I'm always in favor of two controls per sign).
Irvine is only on the I-405 signs in Orange County because they (District 12) want to have their county represented on signs (see also I-5 northbound for Santa Ana where it used to say Los Angeles within OC limits) - LA county (District 7) doesn't care and signs San Diego only
You may be ascribing malice to District 7 when it's really inertia - when I-405 was originally signed Irvine was little more than a bump in the road. Re-signing projects largely just replicate what was there before.
It also should be noted that if Irvine was signed further up the I-405, it would start at I-710 (only ~4 miles upstream). From the last Google street view (February 2023), the pull-through signage at I-710 is still original (or at least button-copy era); and approaching CA-22/I-605, the signage covers both I-405 south (San Diego) and CA-22 east (Garden Grove), so not a lot of extra room available.
Florida has the same on I-95. D4 uses West Palm Beach while the district before it uses Miami. Cross the Brevard- Indian River County Line and Miami disappears until after West Palm.
Missouri with Kansas City out of St. Louis on I-70, but cross into St. Louis County and Wentzville suddenly appears, followed by Columbia after Wentzville. KC don’t appear again until after Columbia.
Eastbound I-70 uses St. Louis from west of KC in Kansas, then Columbia takes over after leaving the KC metro and then Columbia vanishes way before Columbia is reached.
Quote from: DTComposer on August 01, 2023, 08:30:18 PM
You may be ascribing malice to District 7 when it's really inertia - when I-405 was originally signed Irvine was little more than a bump in the road. Re-signing projects largely just replicate what was there before.
It also should be noted that if Irvine was signed further up the I-405, it would start at I-710 (only ~4 miles upstream). From the last Google street view (February 2023), the pull-through signage at I-710 is still original (or at least button-copy era); and approaching CA-22/I-605, the signage covers both I-405 south (San Diego) and CA-22 east (Garden Grove), so not a lot of extra room available.
Malice is such a strong word haha :spin: I meant it's more of the districts just do their own thing and don't coordinate with each other for little things like control cities.
D7 favors signing big cities/county seats over suburbs recently - with Hollywood* on US-101 and San Fernando on I-210 disappearing as control cities.
* This might be due to Hollywood is part of LA City so they thought they have to sign a real city on the sign. I think it's fine either way.
I have problems with this one. How many people are going to Framingham that it needs top billing as a control city? Boston would be just fine. And Taunton?? The old sign used to be NH-Maine/Cape Cod!
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2632457,-71.5719557,3a,75y,67.81h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbWnZ6bJ-LxIIBqj_ZxgoyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2632457,-71.5719557,3a,75y,67.81h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbWnZ6bJ-LxIIBqj_ZxgoyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
Just Berlin would have been fine, here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6223891,-72.7266385,3a,75y,309.95h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D318.2488%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6223891,-72.7266385,3a,75y,309.95h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D318.2488%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
This is not a control city and is therefore worthless. Probably should be NYC here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5302772,-72.7699033,3a,75y,192.66h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soDmDPIzQZwcZiNGpa8vU9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5302772,-72.7699033,3a,75y,192.66h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soDmDPIzQZwcZiNGpa8vU9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 04, 2023, 03:22:02 PM
I have problems with this one. How many people are going to Framingham that it needs top billing as a control city? Boston would be just fine. And Taunton?? The old sign used to be NH-Maine/Cape Cod!
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2632457,-71.5719557,3a,75y,67.81h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbWnZ6bJ-LxIIBqj_ZxgoyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2632457,-71.5719557,3a,75y,67.81h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbWnZ6bJ-LxIIBqj_ZxgoyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
Just Berlin would have been fine, here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6223891,-72.7266385,3a,75y,309.95h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D318.2488%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6223891,-72.7266385,3a,75y,309.95h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D318.2488%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
This is not a control city and is therefore worthless. Probably should be NYC here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5302772,-72.7699033,3a,75y,192.66h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soDmDPIzQZwcZiNGpa8vU9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5302772,-72.7699033,3a,75y,192.66h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soDmDPIzQZwcZiNGpa8vU9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
First one, I agree it should be Portsmouth and Cape Cod.
The last one, Wilbur Cross Pkwy is a good control because of the vehicle restrictions on the Pkwys. Road names can be useful controls. They don't need to have cities.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 04, 2023, 03:22:02 PM
I have problems with this one. How many people are going to Framingham that it needs top billing as a control city? Boston would be just fine. And Taunton?? The old sign used to be NH-Maine/Cape Cod!
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2632457,-71.5719557,3a,75y,67.81h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbWnZ6bJ-LxIIBqj_ZxgoyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2632457,-71.5719557,3a,75y,67.81h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbWnZ6bJ-LxIIBqj_ZxgoyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
Just Berlin would have been fine, here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6223891,-72.7266385,3a,75y,309.95h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D318.2488%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6223891,-72.7266385,3a,75y,309.95h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D318.2488%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
This is not a control city and is therefore worthless. Probably should be NYC here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5302772,-72.7699033,3a,75y,192.66h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soDmDPIzQZwcZiNGpa8vU9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5302772,-72.7699033,3a,75y,192.66h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soDmDPIzQZwcZiNGpa8vU9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
I also liked NH-Maine/Cape Cod at the Pike/I-495 interchange as well, since I-495 is the de facto route for those heading to northern New England or Cape Cod while still serving commuters in Massachusetts. But I'm sure MassDOT either felt some local pressure or decided to follow the book by using Portsmouth and Taunton. As far a local cities go, I would have been OK with using the even older Marlborough/Milford.
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 05, 2023, 09:28:02 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 04, 2023, 03:22:02 PM
I have problems with this one. How many people are going to Framingham that it needs top billing as a control city? Boston would be just fine. And Taunton?? The old sign used to be NH-Maine/Cape Cod!
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2632457,-71.5719557,3a,75y,67.81h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbWnZ6bJ-LxIIBqj_ZxgoyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2632457,-71.5719557,3a,75y,67.81h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbWnZ6bJ-LxIIBqj_ZxgoyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
Just Berlin would have been fine, here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6223891,-72.7266385,3a,75y,309.95h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D318.2488%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6223891,-72.7266385,3a,75y,309.95h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D318.2488%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
This is not a control city and is therefore worthless. Probably should be NYC here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5302772,-72.7699033,3a,75y,192.66h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soDmDPIzQZwcZiNGpa8vU9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5302772,-72.7699033,3a,75y,192.66h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soDmDPIzQZwcZiNGpa8vU9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
First one, I agree it should be Portsmouth and Cape Cod.
The last one, Wilbur Cross Pkwy is a good control because of the vehicle restrictions on the Pkwys. Road names can be useful controls. They don't need to have cities.
There's ample "No Trucks" signage along the C/D.
Taunton I guess is used cause it's where its southern interchange is with I-95 is. We can say it's the Benson of NC or the Lake City of FL. :bigass:
Quote from: roadman65 on August 01, 2023, 08:46:29 PM
Missouri with Kansas City out of St. Louis on I-70, but cross into St. Louis County and Wentzville suddenly appears, followed by Columbia after Wentzville. KC don't appear again until after Columbia.
Eastbound I-70 uses St. Louis from west of KC in Kansas, then Columbia takes over after leaving the KC metro and then Columbia vanishes way before Columbia is reached.
MoDOT does a bunch of whack stuff with control cities that I don't like. Once you're out of St Louis city limits, Wentzville and Columbia replaces Kansas City on I-70 WB's overhead signs, same with Rolla replacing Tulsa on I-44 WB, and Cape Girardeau replacing Memphis on I-55 SB. Imo the overhead signs, as well as the bottom line on mileage signs, should be kept as Kansas City, Tulsa and Memphis the whole way on I-70 WB, I-44 WB and I-55 SB respectively, and they can sign Wentzville, Rolla, etc on minor interchange on-ramps.
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 07, 2023, 12:42:11 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 01, 2023, 08:46:29 PM
Missouri with Kansas City out of St. Louis on I-70, but cross into St. Louis County and Wentzville suddenly appears, followed by Columbia after Wentzville. KC don't appear again until after Columbia.
Eastbound I-70 uses St. Louis from west of KC in Kansas, then Columbia takes over after leaving the KC metro and then Columbia vanishes way before Columbia is reached.
MoDOT does a bunch of whack stuff with control cities that I don't like. Once you're out of St Louis city limits, Wentzville and Columbia replaces Kansas City on I-70 WB's overhead signs, same with Rolla replacing Tulsa on I-44 WB, and Cape Girardeau replacing Memphis on I-55 SB. Imo the overhead signs, as well as the bottom line on mileage signs, should be kept as Kansas City, Tulsa and Memphis the whole way on I-70 WB, I-44 WB and I-55 SB respectively, and they can sign Wentzville, Rolla, etc on minor interchange on-ramps.
I don't know about Rolla, but I-44 should have Spriingfield and Joplin as control cities before Tulsa gets listed.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 06, 2023, 12:08:51 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 04, 2023, 03:22:02 PM
I have problems with this one. How many people are going to Framingham that it needs top billing as a control city? Boston would be just fine. And Taunton?? The old sign used to be NH-Maine/Cape Cod!
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2632457,-71.5719557,3a,75y,67.81h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbWnZ6bJ-LxIIBqj_ZxgoyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2632457,-71.5719557,3a,75y,67.81h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbWnZ6bJ-LxIIBqj_ZxgoyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
Just Berlin would have been fine, here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6223891,-72.7266385,3a,75y,309.95h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D318.2488%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6223891,-72.7266385,3a,75y,309.95h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQG076J7O0td-sRucaZ8KCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D318.2488%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
This is not a control city and is therefore worthless. Probably should be NYC here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5302772,-72.7699033,3a,75y,192.66h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soDmDPIzQZwcZiNGpa8vU9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5302772,-72.7699033,3a,75y,192.66h,99.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soDmDPIzQZwcZiNGpa8vU9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
I also liked NH-Maine/Cape Cod at the Pike/I-495 interchange as well, since I-495 is the de facto route for those heading to northern New England or Cape Cod while still serving commuters in Massachusetts. But I'm sure MassDOT either felt some local pressure or decided to follow the book by using Portsmouth and Taunton. As far a local cities go, I would have been OK with using the even older Marlborough/Milford.
Milford is an abysmal choice. Not big and not a major intersection. Foxborough would be a better local choice.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 01, 2023, 05:51:54 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 31, 2023, 11:47:04 PM
Quote from: Quillz on July 29, 2023, 06:08:33 PM
I will die on my hill that "Sacramento" is a terrible control city for the 405. Yes, it provides indirect access to Sacramento. But so does I-805 by that logic. There are also plenty of closer cities that could be listed: Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton. Sacramento is fine for a control city, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense for the 405.
I agree with this point. Sacramento is a terrible control city anywhere that far south. There are a lot of notable places in the Central Valley that are accessible from I-5 that should get control city status: Bakersfield, Modesto, and Stockton are big enough on their own. There's also the argument that San Francisco or Oakland could work as a control city since it's the quickest way there from Los Angeles. Sacramento is one of the worst possible options for I-5 in LA.
Ignoring almost the entirety of the Central Valley makes no sense.
Sacramento is bigger than Bakersfield and any other central valley cities, plus those cities aren't on I-5.
Turns out that Fresno is actually larger than Sacramento among Central Valley Cities. Yes this is like San Jose is officially the Bay Areas largest city but San Francisco gets the credit for being the largest city. I know what you mean it's the next largest city on I-5 going northbound after you reach north of DTLA.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 07, 2023, 01:24:07 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 07, 2023, 12:42:11 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 01, 2023, 08:46:29 PM
Missouri with Kansas City out of St. Louis on I-70, but cross into St. Louis County and Wentzville suddenly appears, followed by Columbia after Wentzville. KC don’t appear again until after Columbia.
Eastbound I-70 uses St. Louis from west of KC in Kansas, then Columbia takes over after leaving the KC metro and then Columbia vanishes way before Columbia is reached.
MoDOT does a bunch of whack stuff with control cities that I don't like. Once you're out of St Louis city limits, Wentzville and Columbia replaces Kansas City on I-70 WB's overhead signs, same with Rolla replacing Tulsa on I-44 WB, and Cape Girardeau replacing Memphis on I-55 SB. Imo the overhead signs, as well as the bottom line on mileage signs, should be kept as Kansas City, Tulsa and Memphis the whole way on I-70 WB, I-44 WB and I-55 SB respectively, and they can sign Wentzville, Rolla, etc on minor interchange on-ramps.
I don't know about Rolla, but I-44 should have Spriingfield and Joplin as control cities before Tulsa gets listed.
On 44, I would use Joplin over Rolla for something in state if not Tulsa. I would avoid using Springfield because of how close and in the opposite direction Springfield IL is.
On 55, Cape Girardeau is a good secondary, not a primary.
On 70, I got no problem with using Columbia because of it being a major university town but it should also have Kansas City the whole way from St Louis. No Wentzville as a primary.
Missouri is inconsistent I will say. I don't like when control change too often. NC along I-95 is also that way, though since Benson is been into the mix it seemed to settle on that though.
New Jersey on US 46 recently has gotten inconsistent with different construction signing contractors using different pull through destinations between Clifton and Dover. It all used to be Dover WB from Clifton. Now it's Little Falls, Fairfield, Wayne, Parsippany etc on the various sign replacements/ additions. Going EB from Wayne you have Fort Lee, Elmwood Park, Palisades Park etc. where prior it was either George Washington Br. or simply New York.
I thought of the Danville Illinois control sign on Illinois 394. That might date from the time Illinois 1 corridor was considered for a supplement freeway. Then Indiana made 41 4 lanes .
Also Illinois 1 to 17 to I 57 seems more logical . It's only 2 miles longer and misses a lot of winding road and towns and 57 is usually less congested than Bishop Ford.
Also there is a too Peoria sign by 180 . A supplemental was added there to save face for FHWA getting suckered in 180.
That route would be same mileage as 74 55 and is no longer under consideration.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 07, 2023, 01:24:07 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 07, 2023, 12:42:11 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 01, 2023, 08:46:29 PM
Missouri with Kansas City out of St. Louis on I-70, but cross into St. Louis County and Wentzville suddenly appears, followed by Columbia after Wentzville. KC don't appear again until after Columbia.
Eastbound I-70 uses St. Louis from west of KC in Kansas, then Columbia takes over after leaving the KC metro and then Columbia vanishes way before Columbia is reached.
MoDOT does a bunch of whack stuff with control cities that I don't like. Once you're out of St Louis city limits, Wentzville and Columbia replaces Kansas City on I-70 WB's overhead signs, same with Rolla replacing Tulsa on I-44 WB, and Cape Girardeau replacing Memphis on I-55 SB. Imo the overhead signs, as well as the bottom line on mileage signs, should be kept as Kansas City, Tulsa and Memphis the whole way on I-70 WB, I-44 WB and I-55 SB respectively, and they can sign Wentzville, Rolla, etc on minor interchange on-ramps.
I don't know about Rolla, but I-44 should have Spriingfield and Joplin as control cities before Tulsa gets listed.
I would prefer to keep Tulsa for I-44. The other control cities out of St Louis are of cities of substantial size (Kansas City, Indianapolis, Chicago, Memphis, Louisville), so Tulsa fits with the rest of the group. Also, Springfield MO could easily be confused for Springfield IL, which is in the opposite direction at a shorter distance from St Louis, and probably more well-known due to its state capital status. And Joplin is irrelevant outside of the I-49 junction. Tulsa it is.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 07, 2023, 06:30:03 AM
Taunton I guess is used cause it's where its southern interchange is with I-95 is. We can say it's the Benson of NC or the Lake City of FL. :bigass:
The interchange is in Foxborough, not Taunton.
^^^^It's close enough. Though Foxborough is home to the New England Patriots. You figure that and I-95 and 495 meeting there would be more prominent over Taunton.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 08, 2023, 01:02:06 PM
^^^^It's close enough. Though Foxborough is home to the New England Patriots. You figure that and I-95 and 495 meeting there would be more prominent over Taunton.
Foxboro would be a better control city than Taunton IMO.
With regard to Eastbound I-10 at CA 111 and "other desert cities," there was a discussion in the "there is no way that is MUTCD-compliant" Facebook group. One of the members informed me that the sign refers to Palm Desert, Rancho Mirage, etc. that Caltrains' intent was to encourage people to stay on the freeway and exit later, which sort of makes sense.
So, according to Wikipedia, the level for communities goes:
* Cities
* Towns
* Census-designated places
* Unincorporated communities
Correct me if I'm wrong on these.
Anyway, I don't know if it's the worst, but on Interstate 90, Exit 254 is signed for Fishtrap (https://goo.gl/maps/RZzmXaCXnm4GeEoL8). It's obviously not a city or town, but I don't even know if it's categorized as the last two on in that list. There's not even a Wikipedia article on it, so it's not even really that important of a place, like Hyak, which does have a Wikipedia article. Personally, I think the exit could have just been signed for the name of the road, like some other exits do. In this case, Spraque Highway Road East.
Looking eastbound:
https://goo.gl/maps/qdSfBNvWdtpvRt4J7
https://goo.gl/maps/rY95nPpeQCSTvzqj9
Using the street name on an exit sign is for urban conditions where the city name is not very helpful because of the number of exits that serve the city.
Quote from: ran4sh on August 20, 2023, 08:33:16 PM
Using the street name on an exit sign is for urban conditions where the city name is not very helpful because of the number of exits that serve the city.
Or for extremely rural exits that do not go to any kind of settlement or named place. Better a road name than something like "Morton Salt Plant" or "Geneva Rock Quarry".
:bigass: :bigass: :bigass: :bigass:.
Limon.
Oh wait, in an April Fool thread we all agreed it's useful. :sombrero:
Well a couple weeks ago I was in Detroit at a Tigers game with a guy from Denver. So I asked him if he knew where Limon was at in Colorado and he told me he knew where it was at. This guy isn't even a Colorado native and has lived in Denver for several years but isn;t from Denver. I told him that there is a group of people that actually discuss this kind of thing in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70. He said it's not a very big place but it's where a lot of people change highways. That was his exact response.
Quote from: Vaulter on August 08, 2023, 12:53:20 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 07, 2023, 06:30:03 AM
Taunton I guess is used cause it's where its southern interchange is with I-95 is. We can say it's the Benson of NC or the Lake City of FL. :bigass:
The interchange is in Foxborough, not Taunton.
Given the prominence of the New England Patriots, Foxborough would actually be a useful control city.
Want a worse one than Limon in Colorado?
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tWC7NkR/Idaho-Springs.png)
How about this:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7603/16893284415_ed78621418_c.jpg)
Bay St. Louis.
IMO it should be Gulfport or Mobile. What significance does Bay St. Louis have for I-10 travelers.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 28, 2023, 03:21:13 AM
How about this:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7603/16893284415_ed78621418_c.jpg)
Bay St. Louis.
IMO it should be Gulfport or Mobile. What significance does Bay St. Louis have for I-10 travelers.
Probably should be Gulfport, it's the second largest city in Mississippi even though it's not really that big of a city.
Gulfport is where US 49 intersects and is a popular beach destination. It's much better than Bay St. Louis, that was a hold out from when I-10 was still being built as it ended there ( or before there) which is why LADOTD chose that originally.
If I was to pick one I think I'd just go with Mobile. Followed by Tallahassee and Jacksonville east of there.
For WB I'd just use Baton Rouge, then Lafayette, Beaumont, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, Phoenix, Los Angeles.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 28, 2023, 06:46:48 PM
Gulfport is where US 49 intersects and is a popular beach destination. It's much better than Bay St. Louis, that was a hold out from when I-10 was still being built as it ended there ( or before there) which is why LADOTD chose that originally.
I-10 was completed near the Louisiana-Mississippi line (to Exit 2) and the Alabama-Mississippi line (where it merged with US 90 at the line) long before the rest was even started in Mississippi. That is why Bay St. Louis is used EB instead of Gulfport or Mobile and why Pascagoula is used WB in Alabama instead of Gulfport/Biloxi or New Orleans.
We can more than likely agree that these control points need to be updated.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 28, 2023, 07:07:43 PM
If I was to pick one I think I'd just go with Mobile. Followed by Tallahassee and Jacksonville east of there.
For WB I'd just use Baton Rouge, then Lafayette, Beaumont, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, Phoenix, Los Angeles.
I would add Gulfport and Pensacola to the above EB list. However, Mississippi uses Mobile instead of Gulfport or Biloxi at the Exit 2 interchange. https://goo.gl/maps/QSYk98stzD7wRt1t6
New Orleans is used at Exit 75 (first WB interchange in Mississippi), https://goo.gl/maps/v8t9yKVQiR8WvXbU9 thus proving that the control points in Louisiana and Alabama need to be updated and that even Mississippi does not believe their cities are worthy of mention as control points along I-10.
Having spent a few days in the Asheville area in NC, I can't help but wonder why NCDOT decided to use Statesville on I-40 east. Westbound is fine as it is signed for Knoxville, but Statesville makes no sense. I get that it's the junction of I-77, but Winston-Salem or Greensboro would make more sense.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 29, 2023, 12:15:29 PM
Having spent a few days in the Asheville area in NC, I can't help but wonder why NCDOT decided to use Statesville on I-40 east. Westbound is fine as it is signed for Knoxville, but Statesville makes no sense. I get that it's the junction of I-77, but Winston-Salem or Greensboro would make more sense.
Same reason it's used on I-77 north from Charlotte. It's an Interstate junction, not too small of a place either really. I believe the point is that Statesville would be a turning off point going north and south on I-77 and you haven't reached Winston-Salem or Greensboro yet.
Statesville is used on I-77 north from Charlotte because there are no other good options. Going east on I-40, however, there are two good options that BlueOutback7 just listed.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 29, 2023, 12:15:29 PM
Having spent a few days in the Asheville area in NC, I can't help but wonder why NCDOT decided to use Statesville on I-40 east. Westbound is fine as it is signed for Knoxville, but Statesville makes no sense. I get that it's the junction of I-77, but Winston-Salem or Greensboro would make more sense.
The reason is in bold above, and it's a perfectly good reason. Statesville is a decision point for traffic.
Quote from: 1 on August 29, 2023, 12:26:25 PM
Statesville is used on I-77 north from Charlotte because there are no other good options. Going east on I-40, however, there are two good options that BlueOutback7 just listed.
So you subscribe to the theory that control cities can be/should be different for two different intersecting roads that meet there?
Sounds like Virginia -- I-81 is signed for Roanoke/Bristol but I-77 is signed for Wytheville instead of Charlotte/Beckley.
I wonder how much long-distance traffic actually use the ramps in a (near) 90-degree interstate to interstate junction. I-70/I-77 in Cambridge, OH is similar to Statesville, and using diagonal routes are much preferable than using this interchange. I-76 and US 250 covers the northeast quadrant, I-71 for the northwest, US 23/35 and US 33 for the southwest and I-79 for the southeast. This is a good enough reason to not sign Cambridge as a control city on either I-70 or I-77 even though it's an interstate junction (which OhioDOT doesn't anyways)
Quote from: 1 on August 29, 2023, 12:26:25 PM
Statesville is used on I-77 north from Charlotte because there are no other good options. Going east on I-40, however, there are two good options that BlueOutback7 just listed.
Statesville is used north of Charlotte because it's at the junction of I-40. There might not be too many good choices but Statesville is a good enough choice. A lot of people here seem to think that a control city has to be a big city which it does not.
Using I-40 west to I-77 south was the way to get from my uncle's house who lived outside of Winston-Salem to Charlotte, even quicker than taking I-285 to I-85 so I've used the ramps from I-40 west to I-77 south and I-77 north to I-40 east more than a few times. I've spent the night in Statesville before as well so to be honest about it I think people are nitpicking too much on what should or shouldn't be a control city. Just because a city is bigger doesn't mean it should be used first.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 29, 2023, 12:15:29 PM
Having spent a few days in the Asheville area in NC, I can't help but wonder why NCDOT decided to use Statesville on I-40 east. Westbound is fine as it is signed for Knoxville, but Statesville makes no sense. I get that it's the junction of I-77, but Winston-Salem or Greensboro would make more sense.
You must not have driven through the western I-240/26/40 interchange. I-40 at that interchange has a control point of Hickory instead of Statesville, which is the control point at the eastern I-40/240/US 74-A interchange. At the other interchanges along I-40 in the Asheville area (NC 191, US 25), Black Mountain and Canton are used. The newest interchange, US 25A, uses Asheville (?!?) and Hickory. These are holdovers from when I-40 was partially completed (to Canton WB and to Black Mountain EB as I-40 wasn't officially designated on the section between Ridgecrest and Old Fort until 1982—it was officially just US 70). Unfortunately, many DOT's carbon copy signs instead of updating them. The control points in the Asheville area should be Knoxville and Statesville.
As far as I-77's control points, many of those used are smaller cities. Going NB from Charlotte, it is Statesville, Elkin (used at the US 421/I-77 interchange), Wytheville, Bluefield, Beckley, Charleston, Parkersburg, Cleveland (with a few Canton's and Akron's signed). There is no way that NCDOT would use Charlotte and Charleston WV (or Cleveland) at the I-40/I-77 interchange in Statesville–they aren't Illinois. There are a few mileage signs on I-77 north of Statesville that list Ft. Chiswell as the bottom destination of the two shown. NCDOT should seriously look into updating control points and mileage signs throughout the state. Elkin should never be used as a control point nor should Hickory, Benson, and Dunn. However, these cities can be used on mileage signs. Maybe Mt. Airy will be changed to Wytheville along US 52 when I-74 is signed along that section north of Rural Hall.
As an aside, it was good to be that the control point for I-77 NB on I-40 was changed from Elkin to Wytheville and that the control point for I-40 WB was changed from Hickory to Asheville.
The western I-240/26/40 exit also has Biltmore Estate on it for an EB control city on I-40. Isn't that a horse racing track or something like that?
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2023, 08:45:46 AM
The western I-240/26/40 exit also has Biltmore Estate on it for an EB control city on I-40. Isn't that a horse racing track or something like that?
Yeah I don't like that they use Biltmore Estate on I-40 east. I get what they're trying to do by helping people get to a tourist destination, but still.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 30, 2023, 08:52:47 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2023, 08:45:46 AM
The western I-240/26/40 exit also has Biltmore Estate on it for an EB control city on I-40. Isn't that a horse racing track or something like that?
Yeah I don't like that they use Biltmore Estate on I-40 east. I get what they're trying to do by helping people get to a tourist destination, but still.
A tourist destination shouldn't really be a control city, it belongs as an addendum (for lack of a better word). Even Disney World isn't an appropriate control city, even if it's definitely needed as a destination on signage for exits that serve it.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 30, 2023, 08:52:47 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2023, 08:45:46 AM
The western I-240/26/40 exit also has Biltmore Estate on it for an EB control city on I-40. Isn't that a horse racing track or something like that?
Yeah I don't like that they use Biltmore Estate on I-40 east. I get what they're trying to do by helping people get to a tourist destination, but still.
I looked Biltmore Estate up and come to find out it's a historic house museum. I guess it's the largest privately owned house in the United States at nearly 180,000 square feet (about the size of a Walmart Supercenter). TBH I have no interest in visiting this place.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2023, 08:59:10 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 30, 2023, 08:52:47 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2023, 08:45:46 AM
The western I-240/26/40 exit also has Biltmore Estate on it for an EB control city on I-40. Isn't that a horse racing track or something like that?
Yeah I don't like that they use Biltmore Estate on I-40 east. I get what they're trying to do by helping people get to a tourist destination, but still.
I looked Biltmore Estate up and come to find out it's a historic house museum. I guess it's the largest privately owned house in the United States at nearly 180,000 square feet (about the size of a Walmart Supercenter). TBH I have no interest in visiting this place.
Actually an old Vanderbilt mansion. I have been there with my wife (in 2004). Spectacular if you are into that kind of thing (I'm not but my wife is, didn't think I'd like it but I did). They also own a lot of land outside of just the house footprint, I remember gardens and a winery.
To get back on topic, I'm not going to try to get into NC's head, nor do I know what relationship the estate has with the state -- but if it was decided that a routing sign was needed (too many tourists getting lost), I'm not going to question their judgment.
The thing is I thought Biltmore Estate was a city from just looking at it and then I was wondering why haven't I heard of it before? I'm not familiar with that part of NC but I find it kind of ridiculous to put it on a sign where a control city is supposed to be. Hickory is fine, it comes before Statesville though coming from that direction and Statesville is used on the other end of Asheville.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 30, 2023, 08:52:47 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2023, 08:45:46 AM
The western I-240/26/40 exit also has Biltmore Estate on it for an EB control city on I-40. Isn't that a horse racing track or something like that?
Yeah I don't like that they use Biltmore Estate on I-40 east. I get what they're trying to do by helping people get to a tourist destination, but still.
I think it's only used once though but I could be wrong. I think Hickory should be used until you get to Hickory then use Statesville after that.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2023, 06:47:07 PM
The thing is I thought Biltmore Estate was a city from just looking at it and then I was wondering why haven't I heard of it before? I'm not familiar with that part of NC but I find it kind of ridiculous to put it on a sign where a control city is supposed to be. Hickory is fine, it comes before Statesville though coming from that direction and Statesville is used on the other end of Asheville.
FWIW - I had also never heard of it until my wife told me she wanted to go there when we were planning our 2004 trip.
If we jump ahead about 18+ years, I have seen commercials for Biltmore recently in the DC area. (also see them for other areas (e.g., NJ, WV) within a few hours drive -- although Asheville was at least an 8 hour drive from north of DC, when I did it in 2004)
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2023, 06:47:07 PM
The thing is I thought Biltmore Estate was a city from just looking at it and then I was wondering why haven't I heard of it before? I'm not familiar with that part of NC but I find it kind of ridiculous to put it on a sign where a control city is supposed to be. Hickory is fine, it comes before Statesville though coming from that direction and Statesville is used on the other end of Asheville.
I went there back in 2008. It is a spectacular place to visit - both the estate itself and its setting in the mountains and valleys of Western NC. It is (arguably) the top attraction in Asheville and well worth a visit if you're in that area (and are willing to spend $$ and are into historic estates). All that having been said, it's not a control city. It may have been put there at the behest of the management or some other significant individual with pull.
Biltmore is one of those places I would visit because I'm in the area already, be amazed but also depressed that my wallet got $85 lighter for the per-person entry fee. Definitely not control city worthy.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on July 28, 2023, 09:12:04 PM
How I-80 in PA should look
Eastbound
OH - I-99: State College
I-99 - US 220: Williamsport
US 220 - I-81: Scranton/NYC
From I-81 East: NYC
Westbound
To I-380: Scranton
I-380 - I-180: Williamsport
I-180 - I-99: State College
I-99 - OH: Youngstown (also Cleveland at I-79 and I-376 junctions)
There is beauty in this simplicity!
But I can also see the point of putting in occasional secondaries, especially since the state authorities seem to want every little town mentioned. But for the most part, all cities mentioned here are relatively well known regionally. And there is consistency in both directions.
But I love the suggestion!
Quote from: DTComposer on August 01, 2023, 08:30:18 PM
Quote from: SeriesE on August 01, 2023, 08:10:08 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on August 01, 2023, 07:00:11 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 31, 2023, 11:18:06 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 31, 2023, 04:18:46 PM
There's an argument to be made that Irvine, a giant suburb on one end of the 405 (300k population), and Santa Clarita, a giant exurb on the other end (225k), are not only great control cities for the 405, but the 5 as well.
I prefer keeping off suburbs. I-5 south of LA should be San Diego and north of LA Sacramento/San Francisco
Irvine is already being used on portions of I-405 south (with San Diego) around CA-22. Irvine blurs the line between suburb and satellite city - it's a major employment and retail center as well as home to a UC campus.
IMO, the modern purpose of control cities is to provide guidance to people not using GPS, or to provide reinforcement to those who are. By and large, locals do not need control cities - so controls that aren't termini or major junctions should be selected on where non-local people (i.e. tourists) are going, directly or indirectly. If you're visiting L.A. and taking I-5 south, it is most likely you're heading to Anaheim or San Diego - those should be the controls. I-5 north, you're most likely going to Sacramento or San Francisco. In that vein, US-101 out of L.A./Hollywood should be signed for Santa Barbara (instead of Ventura). Secondary controls are fine (I'm always in favor of two controls per sign).
Irvine is only on the I-405 signs in Orange County because they (District 12) want to have their county represented on signs (see also I-5 northbound for Santa Ana where it used to say Los Angeles within OC limits) - LA county (District 7) doesn't care and signs San Diego only
You may be ascribing malice to District 7 when it's really inertia - when I-405 was originally signed Irvine was little more than a bump in the road. Re-signing projects largely just replicate what was there before.
It also should be noted that if Irvine was signed further up the I-405, it would start at I-710 (only ~4 miles upstream). From the last Google street view (February 2023), the pull-through signage at I-710 is still original (or at least button-copy era); and approaching CA-22/I-605, the signage covers both I-405 south (San Diego) and CA-22 east (Garden Grove), so not a lot of extra room available.
My thoughts are that control cities for 2dis should ideally be the biggest cities: Phoenix, Sacramento, San Diego. And the 3dis that lead to it shold also have similar cities used.
With regard to Sacramento, this is absolutely followed currently. And it is a good practice. I-5 and roads that lead to it (405, 170, 210) all have that control and signify the road leading out of town to the north.
5 and 405 used to have san diego south of Santa Ana and Long Beach. Replacing San diego with Irvine is not helpful.
The NB control of I-5 in OC should simply be L.A. (Replacing this with santa ana is not helpfl.)
So if D12 wants to add Irvine or Santa Ana or Anaheim or whatever - it should be as an addition, not a replacement.
The control cities in the LA area also have a feature of reminiscing the old names of the freeways that are now not to be posted. Pomona Fwy for 60, San Bernardino Fwy for 10, Santa Ana Fwy for 5. Because of this, I am more tolerant of keeping some of the more local controls on certain freeways -- but it is frustrating at times. 60 onlly hits the edge of Pomona (10 is usually a better way of getting to most of Pomona). 10 skirts the southern parts of San Bernardino and now 210 reaches the more central parts of it.
So if money were no object, I would replace a lot of controls for many of the LA area freeways to be more consistent with where the freeways actually go and to have more long distance destinations on the 2dis and roads that lead to the 2dis.
Ran4sh,
I love your signature:
Quote
Control cities CAN be off the route!
Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!
And this absolutely fits the theme of this thread.
Picking good control cities can be a little challenging. The idea is that it must be a proper city and leads to where people are going, not limited to where the highway ends up.
So as one example, the SB control for I-15 from Las Vegas is Los Angeles. This is where most traffic is going and it is a big well know city. When crossing into CA, the control city changes to San Bernardino. This is a huge mistake as L.A. is still where most traffic is headed and even though I-15 doesn't hit L.A. directly (or San Bernardino for that matter), it should absolutely be signed as such until you get to I-10 and traffic is then further directed to L.A.
The Caltrans D7 standard seems to sign L.A. as a control all the way to Downtown. This isn't strictly necessary. Many areas that are clearly within the city should instead have a control of Downtown LA or LA Civic Center (there is a difference) as the case may be. Basically anywhere within the city limits that is south of the Santa Monica Mountains and north of I-105 the controls for L.A. on freeways like 5, 10, 101 should probably be replaced with "Downtown L.A." It is certainly weird to be directed toward Los Angeles from the USC area which is well within the city and only a few miles from the heart of Downtown.
But at the same time, the control city should not end right at the city limit without clear direction to Downtown. One bad offender here is Memphis. Yes, you are within city limits at 40/240 at teh east end of town, but helpful directions to Downtown are probably better accepted than guide signs to Little Rock.
As for the even-numbered east-west two-digit Interstates: I-80 and I-90 eastbound use Indiana instead of South Bend or Toledo, or even cities like Hammond and Gary. Likewise, it uses Iowa westbound as opposed to Davenport or Moline, or even Joliet. I-94 uses Wisconsin or Indiana, as opposed to Milwaukee, although some signs north of the Chicago Loop say Milwaukee, and the Indiana signs say Indiana as opposed to Detroit.
You know District 6 you could have put barstow instead of mojave working with district 8 but nope https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3436168,-119.0394765,0a,99y,16.23h,90.27t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s3PczSSl5HV00pCu9WUBzbA!2e0?source=apiv3
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on February 18, 2024, 12:03:01 AM
As for the even-numbered east-west two-digit Interstates: I-80 and I-90 eastbound use Indiana instead of South Bend or Toledo, or even cities like Hammond and Gary. Likewise, it uses Iowa westbound as opposed to Davenport or Moline, or even Joliet. I-94 uses Wisconsin or Indiana, as opposed to Milwaukee, although some signs north of the Chicago Loop say Milwaukee, and the Indiana signs say Indiana as opposed to Detroit.
A lot of complaints about the use of states as controls in the Chicago area, especially when there are other ways to get to other parts of the state.
Iowa should be Davenport or Des Moines. Appropriate secondary controls like Joliet can be used as well.
Wisconsin should be Milwaukee. When used in referring to the combined 90/94, I prefer combining Rockford and Milwaukee as those are the controls used north of the Edens Split. Madison is no longer a control used regularly for 90, until you get north of Rockford.
Indiana is a harder control to replace. Within Illinois, I think Indiana can be replaced with South Bend / Detroit (both controls). South Bend is a great control for referencing Indiana, and IMO should be the eastbound control for 80 and 90 between Chicago and Toledo.
[Similar to I-70 where Dayton was placed as a control between Indianapolis and Columbus, I think South Bend can be placed as a control between Chicago and Toledo. But Chicago is so important, that I like seeing it as a western control beginning in Toledo. South Bend can be used as a secondary as appropriate.]
Santa Ana as a solo point south of LA. IMO it should be San Diego with Santa Ana as supplemental. Yes we've been through it before, but it's the way I feel.
Baltimore-area: I-95 still uses New York as opposed to much closer Wilmington or Philadelphia, or both, even though the I-95 gap was filled in, and the fact that Philadelphia is the next major U.S. city up I-95. I-695 also uses New York as a control as opposed to Wilmington and/or Philadelphia, even though both are closer.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on February 21, 2024, 08:24:31 PM
Baltimore-area: I-95 still uses New York as opposed to much closer Wilmington or Philadelphia, or both, even though the I-95 gap was filled in, and the fact that Philadelphia is the next major U.S. city up I-95. I-695 also uses New York as a control as opposed to Wilmington and/or Philadelphia, even though both are closer.
This is my home stretch of Interstate (in fact I currently live a stone's throw from one exit along it), and my understanding of this is that most northbound through traffic is assumed by Maryland officials to be taking the New Jersey Turnpike to the New York City area, thus bypassing both Wilmington and Philadelphia.
Quote from: mrsman on February 19, 2024, 12:58:50 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on February 18, 2024, 12:03:01 AM
As for the even-numbered east-west two-digit Interstates: I-80 and I-90 eastbound use Indiana instead of South Bend or Toledo, or even cities like Hammond and Gary. Likewise, it uses Iowa westbound as opposed to Davenport or Moline, or even Joliet. I-94 uses Wisconsin or Indiana, as opposed to Milwaukee, although some signs north of the Chicago Loop say Milwaukee, and the Indiana signs say Indiana as opposed to Detroit.
A lot of complaints about the use of states as controls in the Chicago area, especially when there are other ways to get to other parts of the state.
Iowa should be Davenport or Des Moines. Appropriate secondary controls like Joliet can be used as well.
Wisconsin should be Milwaukee. When used in referring to the combined 90/94, I prefer combining Rockford and Milwaukee as those are the controls used north of the Edens Split. Madison is no longer a control used regularly for 90, until you get north of Rockford.
Indiana is a harder control to replace. Within Illinois, I think Indiana can be replaced with South Bend / Detroit (both controls). South Bend is a great control for referencing Indiana, and IMO should be the eastbound control for 80 and 90 between Chicago and Toledo.
[Similar to I-70 where Dayton was placed as a control between Indianapolis and Columbus, I think South Bend can be placed as a control between Chicago and Toledo. But Chicago is so important, that I like seeing it as a western control beginning in Toledo. South Bend can be used as a secondary as appropriate.]
Another example: I-55's control city is St. Louis, completely ignoring other Illinois cities like Bloomington and Springfield, not even listing either as a secondary control city paired with St. Louis on signs.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on February 22, 2024, 09:30:09 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 19, 2024, 12:58:50 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on February 18, 2024, 12:03:01 AM
As for the even-numbered east-west two-digit Interstates: I-80 and I-90 eastbound use Indiana instead of South Bend or Toledo, or even cities like Hammond and Gary. Likewise, it uses Iowa westbound as opposed to Davenport or Moline, or even Joliet. I-94 uses Wisconsin or Indiana, as opposed to Milwaukee, although some signs north of the Chicago Loop say Milwaukee, and the Indiana signs say Indiana as opposed to Detroit.
A lot of complaints about the use of states as controls in the Chicago area, especially when there are other ways to get to other parts of the state.
Iowa should be Davenport or Des Moines. Appropriate secondary controls like Joliet can be used as well.
Wisconsin should be Milwaukee. When used in referring to the combined 90/94, I prefer combining Rockford and Milwaukee as those are the controls used north of the Edens Split. Madison is no longer a control used regularly for 90, until you get north of Rockford.
Indiana is a harder control to replace. Within Illinois, I think Indiana can be replaced with South Bend / Detroit (both controls). South Bend is a great control for referencing Indiana, and IMO should be the eastbound control for 80 and 90 between Chicago and Toledo.
[Similar to I-70 where Dayton was placed as a control between Indianapolis and Columbus, I think South Bend can be placed as a control between Chicago and Toledo. But Chicago is so important, that I like seeing it as a western control beginning in Toledo. South Bend can be used as a secondary as appropriate.]
Another example: I-55's control city is St. Louis, completely ignoring other Illinois cities like Bloomington and Springfield, not even listing either as a secondary control city paired with St. Louis on signs.
Also I-57 uses Memphis as a control point all the way from Chicago as opposed to something like Champaign, but then again there aren't many cities of decent size along the way.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on February 21, 2024, 08:24:31 PM
Baltimore-area: I-95 still uses New York as opposed to much closer Wilmington or Philadelphia, or both, even though the I-95 gap was filled in, and the fact that Philadelphia is the next major U.S. city up I-95. I-695 also uses New York as a control as opposed to Wilmington and/or Philadelphia, even though both are closer.
One state's actions isn't going to cause another state to undertake a job that'll probably cost over $1 million to change over their signage prematurely.
Quote from: epzik8 on February 21, 2024, 08:30:08 PM
This is my home stretch of Interstate (in fact I currently live a stone's throw from one exit along it), and my understanding of this is that most northbound through traffic is assumed by Maryland officials to be taking the New Jersey Turnpike to the New York City area, thus bypassing both Wilmington and Philadelphia.
In my visual estimation, there is very little Northbound traffic in Maryland that is still travelling North thru NJ or PA to get to New York.
Most traffic around the city in Baltimore has Maryland tags, and are commuters remaining in Maryland. As you go further north, as the Maryland tagged vehicles have exited the highway, there becomes a greater mix of various states of license plates. But by the time this traffic is in New Jersey, reaching the 2 lane (per direction) NJ Turnpike (or in some cases, I-295), there isn't much traffic that, based on tags, would have originated within or south of Maryland with the intention of heading to NY and beyond.
Conversely, there is no signage on the NJ Turnpike & I-295 in New Jersey that reference Baltimore. There *is* signage on I-95 in PA that references Baltimore (near the PA/DE state line). But that signage was there long before 95 was connected directly in PA, which doesn't make sense as SB traffic wouldn't leave the NJ Turnpike via a route not signed for 95 or Baltimore into PA to continue South.
If MD believes that traffic is heading north to NY, NJ *doesn't* believe traffic is heading south towards Baltimore, so there's a bit of a disconnect.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on July 28, 2023, 09:12:04 PM
How I-80 in PA should look
Eastbound
OH - I-99: State College
I-99 - US 220: Williamsport
US 220 - I-81: Scranton/NYC
From I-81 East: NYC
Westbound
To I-380: Scranton
I-380 - I-180: Williamsport
I-180 - I-99: State College
I-99 - OH: Youngstown (also Cleveland at I-79 and I-376 junctions)
I agree with all of those. State College, Williamsport and Scranton, while not right on I-80, are close enough to grab traffic, all are regional centers and much bigger than any community right on I-80.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on February 22, 2024, 09:30:09 PM
Another example: I-55's control city is St. Louis, completely ignoring other Illinois cities like Bloomington and Springfield, not even listing either as a secondary control city paired with St. Louis on signs.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 22, 2024, 09:33:00 PM
Also I-57 uses Memphis as a control point all the way from Chicago as opposed to something like Champaign, but then again there aren't many cities of decent size along the way.
Illinois (IDOT specifically) uses two layers of control cities, a primary and a secondary control. At the main junctions (interstate to interstate), the primary control is used. At other interchanges, the secondaries are typically used.
I-55Primary: St Louis, Chicago
Secondary: East St Louis, Springfield, Bloomington (sometimes Bloomington-Normal), Joliet
I-57:
Primary: Memphis, Chicago
Secondary: Cairo, Mt Vernon, Effingham, Champaign-Urbana, Kankakee
I always thought that the last four exits on I-78 in PA are odd using different controls for all four consecutive I-78 EB ramps.
PA 309 uses Bethlehem.
PA 412 uses Easton.
PA 33 uses New Jersey/ New York
Morgan Hill Road uses New York
Quote from: Brandon on February 23, 2024, 08:05:17 AM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on February 22, 2024, 09:30:09 PM
Another example: I-55's control city is St. Louis, completely ignoring other Illinois cities like Bloomington and Springfield, not even listing either as a secondary control city paired with St. Louis on signs.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 22, 2024, 09:33:00 PM
Also I-57 uses Memphis as a control point all the way from Chicago as opposed to something like Champaign, but then again there aren't many cities of decent size along the way.
Illinois (IDOT specifically) uses two layers of control cities, a primary and a secondary control. At the main junctions (interstate to interstate), the primary control is used. At other interchanges, the secondaries are typically used.
I-55
Primary: St Louis, Chicago
Secondary: East St Louis, Springfield, Bloomington (sometimes Bloomington-Normal), Joliet
I-57:
Primary: Memphis, Chicago
Secondary: Cairo, Mt Vernon, Effingham, Champaign-Urbana, Kankakee
I-39, 64, 70, 72, 74, 80 also do this as the following (Primary controls in caps):
I-39: MADISON (or WISCONSIN), ROCKFORD, La Salle-Peru (SB only), BLOOMINGTON-NORMAL
I-64: ST LOUIS, East St Louis WB only (or just St Louis on the new ones), Mt Vernon, Evansville, LOUISVILLE
I-70: ST LOUIS, East St Louis WB only (or just St Louis on the new ones), Evansville, Terre Haute, INDIANAPOLIS
I-72: HANNIBAL, QUNICY (WB only), Jacksonville (WB only), SPRINGFIELD, Decatur, CHAMPAIGN
I-74: DAVENPORT, MOLINE-ROCK ISLAND WB only, Galesburg, PEORIA, Bloomington (-Normal), Champaign, Danville, INDIANAPOLIS
I-80: DES MOINES (or IOWA), Moline-Rock Island, Joliet, CHICAGO EB only to I-55, Gary (although the newer signs are just Indiana), INDIANA
I was just thinking PennDOT only uses out of state controls near state lines and mostly for places near the border. New York gets used at Easton on I-78 cause it appears that PennDOT and NJDOT each have a quarrel using out of state controls for each other.
New Jersey uses Pennsylvania on I-78 at Exit 3 in Still Valley, NJ and Easton sporadically as Clinton is on most guides heading west out of Newark. Also the Delaware Water Gap over Stroudsburg on I-80 in the Garden State and seldomly even uses Philadelphia on many roads in South Jersey.
I-65 in Indiana does not reference Lafayette, not even as a secondary or paired with Chicago or Indianapolis, even though a sliver of Lafayette's city limits cross I-65.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on February 29, 2024, 12:16:38 AM
I-65 in Indiana does not reference Lafayette, not even as a secondary or paired with Chicago or Indianapolis, even though a sliver of Lafayette's city limits cross I-65.
You are correct with it not being on the BGSs. However, if you look at the mileage signs, Lafayette is used as a secondary which is the correct thing to do.
Someone on FB just mentioned that Grants is not a good choice on WB I-40 in Albuquerque. The user said Gallup or Flagstaff would be used.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 04, 2024, 09:19:32 PM
Someone on FB just mentioned that Grants is not a good choice on WB I-40 in Albuquerque. The user said Gallup or Flagstaff would be used.
I agree. Should be Gallup, IMHO.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 04, 2024, 11:35:22 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 04, 2024, 09:19:32 PM
Someone on FB just mentioned that Grants is not a good choice on WB I-40 in Albuquerque. The user said Gallup or Flagstaff would be used.
I agree. Should be Gallup, IMHO.
I'd vote for that.
I would argue for I-675 in Ohio that it would make no sense to use only Columbus rather than Toledo or both Columbus and Toledo, but I-675 does not connect back to I-75 at its north end, so I'll just leave that one alone. Another example I will cut to: at the west end of the Cumberland Parkway, Bowling Green is listed as a control city, with Nashville being nowhere to be seen. In the Elizabethtown area, control cities for southbound are both Bowling Green and Nashville. I don't see why it couldn't list both for southbound if they do this two-layer control city approach in other parts of Kentucky.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on March 13, 2024, 07:10:40 PM
I would argue for I-675 in Ohio that it would make no sense to use only Columbus rather than Toledo or both Columbus and Toledo, but I-675 does not connect back to I-75 at its north end, so I'll just leave that one alone. Another example I will cut to: at the west end of the Cumberland Parkway, Bowling Green is listed as a control city, with Nashville being nowhere to be seen. In the Elizabethtown area, control cities for southbound are both Bowling Green and Nashville. I don't see why it couldn't list both for southbound if they do this two-layer control city approach in other parts of Kentucky.
At the time it was built, the Cumberland Parkway was intended as a four-lane replacement for KY 80, so it's logical to assume that the majority of traffic would be using the route to get to Bowling Green; whereas with the Bluegrass Parkway, it's a more direct route from Lexington to Nashville vs. I-64 (and I-264 or I-265) to I-65.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 04, 2024, 11:35:22 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 04, 2024, 09:19:32 PM
Someone on FB just mentioned that Grants is not a good choice on WB I-40 in Albuquerque. The user said Gallup or Flagstaff would be used.
I agree. Should be Gallup, IMHO.
Agreed, Gallup is probably a better choice. It's near the state line, bigger than Grants, and connects with US-491.
I-10 in LA using Slidell is fine as I-59 and I-12 meet there, but Bay St. Louis at the I-12/59 exchange is not a good choice. Gulfport or Mobile would be better and even Pascagoula in AL west of Mobile leftover from a previous gap that has been long filled in on I-10 should be Biloxi or New Orleans.