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Will Chicago become 4th populous US City?

Started by roadman65, April 16, 2022, 09:29:19 AM

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webny99

Quote from: kphoger on April 19, 2022, 08:51:37 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 19, 2022, 07:44:51 PM
I can't speak for Chicago, but for MSP, truly crippling snow events are very rare. Maybe twice a winter most places close up early ahead of a snow event and are back to normal the next morning.

The morning after Chicago received ten inches of snow one time, I was driven to O'Hare on mostly-clear roads, and my plane left on time.

That's got to tell you something.

That you're in the Great Lakes region, to be exact.


abefroman329

Quote from: kphoger on April 19, 2022, 08:51:37 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 19, 2022, 07:44:51 PM
I can't speak for Chicago, but for MSP, truly crippling snow events are very rare. Maybe twice a winter most places close up early ahead of a snow event and are back to normal the next morning.

The morning after Chicago received ten inches of snow one time, I was driven to O'Hare on mostly-clear roads, and my plane left on time.

That's got to tell you something.
The morning after Chicago received ten inches of snow one time, I still had to go into the office.

After a combined twenty years in Georgia and DC, that was quite a shock.

dlsterner

I think I will answer the question in my "Mr. Pedantic" mode ...

Q:  Will Chicago become 4th populous US City?

A:   It already has been!  In the approximately 1870-1890 era (give or take a few years), Chicago was indeed the 4th most populous US city, behind New York, Philadelphia, and Brooklyn (then an independent city)

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: kphoger on April 19, 2022, 08:51:37 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 19, 2022, 07:44:51 PM
I can't speak for Chicago, but for MSP, truly crippling snow events are very rare. Maybe twice a winter most places close up early ahead of a snow event and are back to normal the next morning.

The morning after Chicago received ten inches of snow one time, I was driven to O'Hare on mostly-clear roads, and my plane left on time.

That's got to tell you something.

That you weren't near an L station.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

ZLoth

Quote from: kphoger on April 19, 2022, 06:01:13 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2022, 05:04:16 PM
I mean, Dallas rarely has blizzards and never has hurricanes, so...

OTOH, the blizzards that do happen completely cripple Dallas.

What is this "blizzards" that you speak of here in Dallas? Only blizzards in the DFW area are at Dairy Queen.

It is normal for the northern half of DFW to get a dusting of snow maybe once per winter, and usually it's gone by noontime. However, we had the "Extreme Weather Event" that had a significant accumulation of snow across Texas the week of February 14th, 2021 that shut down most of Texas for about a week, and the "Wimpy Son" that occurred February 22-23rd of this year. In both cases, there were significant accumulations that didn't melt away. Such accumulations would be nothing to the northern states where snow is expected. But, for Texas, the buildings and supporting infrastructure are designed for the summer heat and high winds expected of Texas with the possibility of large-sized hail and possibly a tornado. Chicago-type winters is not an expected weather condition, so the only snow plows are found at the DFW International and Dallas Love Field which serve as the hub airports for American Airlines and Southwest airlines. It would not be fiscally responsible for the cities around here to have snow plows or salt reserves that may be used only once per decade.
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".

kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kphoger

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 20, 2022, 07:29:31 AM

Quote from: kphoger on April 19, 2022, 08:51:37 PM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 19, 2022, 07:44:51 PM
I can't speak for Chicago, but for MSP, truly crippling snow events are very rare. Maybe twice a winter most places close up early ahead of a snow event and are back to normal the next morning.

The morning after Chicago received ten inches of snow one time, I was driven to O'Hare on mostly-clear roads, and my plane left on time.

That's got to tell you something.

That you weren't near an L station.

Correct.  I was living near President Street & Geneva Road in Wheaton at the time.  Only a 1½-mile walk from a Metra station, but a week-end schedule on public transit from there to O'Hare wasn't the most convenient–besides, they had offered to drive me anyway.

On future trips, I also did the following combinations from Wheaton:

(1)  take Metra to Bellwood, walk up the stairs that used to exist to the Mannheim overpass, cross over the Proviso freight yard, grab a greasy spoon bite at the Deluxe Grill (no longer in business), catch Pace bus 330 (back when it served O'Hare directly) up Mannheim to the airport

(2)  catch Pace bus 747 (back when it existed) along Roosevelt Road to the mall at Oak Brook Center, catch Pace bus 322 from there to the 54th/Cermak CTA station, then ride the entire Blue Line to O'Hare (back when that branch was still part of the Blue Line)

Neither of those would have been particularly convenient with luggage and/or a small child, especially in the snow.  And both took me through a somewhat-sketchy neighborhood.

I don't think I ever took Metra to Oak Park, then the Green Line at Harlem/Lake, then the Blue Line at Clark/Lake.  The one time I considered that, I cheaped out and did (2) above instead.

However, I have gone to Midway by taking Metra to Oak Park, then the Green Line from Harlem/Lake to Cicero, then CTA bus 54 to 47th, then CTA bus 54B from there to Midway.  My memory is kind of fuzzy, but I think that ended up being more convenient than the Orange Line due to the early Sunday morning schedules.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2022, 10:42:08 AM

(2)  catch Pace bus 747 (back when it existed) along Roosevelt Road to the mall at Oak Brook Center, catch Pace bus 322 from there to the 54th/Cermak CTA station, then ride the entire Blue Line to O'Hare (back when that branch was still part of the Blue Line)


I have ridden the 322. When I lived at Harlem/Madison and worked at Cermak between Wolf and 294, the 307/322 combo was something I had to use when my car was in the shop.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

kphoger

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 20, 2022, 11:38:24 AM

Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2022, 10:42:08 AM
(2)  catch Pace bus 747 (back when it existed) along Roosevelt Road to the mall at Oak Brook Center, catch Pace bus 322 from there to the 54th/Cermak CTA station, then ride the entire Blue Line to O'Hare (back when that branch was still part of the Blue Line)

I have ridden the 322. When I lived at Harlem/Madison and worked at Cermak between Wolf and 294, the 307/322 combo was something I had to use when my car was in the shop.

When I lived in Wheaton but had weekly orchestra rehearsals at Harlem & Augusta, I used to take the 747 along Roosevelt all the way from Blanchard Street to the Forest Park blue line station, then transfer to the 307 up Harlem.  Let me tell you, those nearly-14 miles of Roosevelt Road seemed to take for–ev–er.  I'd pop a CD in my player, put on my headphones, and sometimes the whole album was over before we arrived to the transfer.

Hey, did you ever eat at Submarine Tender?  Butter garlic fries?  (We used to call it BG fries at Sub T's.)
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

CoreySamson

As for my two cents, I don't think Houston proper will ever overcome Chicago in terms of population unless Chicago's population nosedives or the city of Houston goes on an annexing spree. Metro area possibly (but DFW will do that first). Harris County lost population from 2020-2021 while the suburbs grew massively, and think that trend will only continue. Houston proper won't grow much more for the foreseeable future.
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Now on mobrule and Travel Mapping!

Road Hog

The DFW metro area is adding about 150,000 new residents a year while Chicagoland is mostly static. Since DFW is only 1.8 million behind, I expect the Metroplex to pass Chicago by 2035.

jgb191

#86
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
That's true. Perhaps, then, the ideal is something like Oklahoma City, which gets snow about once or twice a year at most, which is enough to justify having the infrastructure to handle it (plows, salt trucks, winterized power grid, etc.) but not often enough that there's a cultural expectation you have to keep carrying on your day-to-day routine when it snows. 

So you're saying that snowfall will cause a shut-down even as far north as Oklahoma?  I know people from Stratford and Spearman, Texas saying that a couple of inches of snow isn't quite enough to slow down those towns, that many people will still drive on it (albeit very gingerly).

And I don't think there is any need for me to say what little it takes to shut down my area of Texas, but for those that still wonder: all it takes is temperatures simply approaching the freezing mark (no snow or ice required).
We're so far south that we're not even considered "The South"

Bruce

Quote from: jgb191 on April 23, 2022, 04:56:00 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
That's true. Perhaps, then, the ideal is something like Oklahoma City, which gets snow about once or twice a year at most, which is enough to justify having the infrastructure to handle it (plows, salt trucks, winterized power grid, etc.) but not often enough that there's a cultural expectation you have to keep carrying on your day-to-day routine when it snows. 

So you're saying that snowfall will cause a shut-down even as far north as Oklahoma?  I know people from Stratford and Spearman, Texas saying that a couple of inches of snow isn't quite enough to slow down those towns, that many people will still drive on it (albeit very gingerly).

And I don't think there is any need for me to say what little it takes to shut down my area of Texas, but for those that still wonder: all it takes is temperatures simply approaching the freezing mark (no snow or ice required).

Anything over a few inches is enough to shut down Seattle and Vancouver. Though our situation is made much worse by the wet snow that re-freezes over and over, on top of being stuck to hills.

Brandon

Quote from: Bruce on April 23, 2022, 05:12:35 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on April 23, 2022, 04:56:00 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
That's true. Perhaps, then, the ideal is something like Oklahoma City, which gets snow about once or twice a year at most, which is enough to justify having the infrastructure to handle it (plows, salt trucks, winterized power grid, etc.) but not often enough that there's a cultural expectation you have to keep carrying on your day-to-day routine when it snows. 

So you're saying that snowfall will cause a shut-down even as far north as Oklahoma?  I know people from Stratford and Spearman, Texas saying that a couple of inches of snow isn't quite enough to slow down those towns, that many people will still drive on it (albeit very gingerly).

And I don't think there is any need for me to say what little it takes to shut down my area of Texas, but for those that still wonder: all it takes is temperatures simply approaching the freezing mark (no snow or ice required).

Anything over a few inches is enough to shut down Seattle and Vancouver. Though our situation is made much worse by the wet snow that re-freezes over and over, on top of being stuck to hills.

Which can be dealt with.  Houghton and Hancock, Michigan are on steep hills, and they get 200+ inches of snow per year, yet they manage to never actually shut down during any point during the winter.


The guy in the video stays to some of the slighter declines and inclines, but you'll get the idea.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Rothman

Quote from: Brandon on April 23, 2022, 05:45:07 AM
Quote from: Bruce on April 23, 2022, 05:12:35 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on April 23, 2022, 04:56:00 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
That's true. Perhaps, then, the ideal is something like Oklahoma City, which gets snow about once or twice a year at most, which is enough to justify having the infrastructure to handle it (plows, salt trucks, winterized power grid, etc.) but not often enough that there's a cultural expectation you have to keep carrying on your day-to-day routine when it snows. 

So you're saying that snowfall will cause a shut-down even as far north as Oklahoma?  I know people from Stratford and Spearman, Texas saying that a couple of inches of snow isn't quite enough to slow down those towns, that many people will still drive on it (albeit very gingerly).

And I don't think there is any need for me to say what little it takes to shut down my area of Texas, but for those that still wonder: all it takes is temperatures simply approaching the freezing mark (no snow or ice required).

Anything over a few inches is enough to shut down Seattle and Vancouver. Though our situation is made much worse by the wet snow that re-freezes over and over, on top of being stuck to hills.

Which can be dealt with.  Houghton and Hancock, Michigan are on steep hills, and they get 200+ inches of snow per year, yet they manage to never actually shut down during any point during the winter.


The guy in the video stays to some of the slighter declines and inclines, but you'll get the idea.
See also Duluth.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kkt

Quote from: Brandon on April 23, 2022, 05:45:07 AM
Quote from: Bruce on April 23, 2022, 05:12:35 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on April 23, 2022, 04:56:00 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
That's true. Perhaps, then, the ideal is something like Oklahoma City, which gets snow about once or twice a year at most, which is enough to justify having the infrastructure to handle it (plows, salt trucks, winterized power grid, etc.) but not often enough that there's a cultural expectation you have to keep carrying on your day-to-day routine when it snows. 

So you're saying that snowfall will cause a shut-down even as far north as Oklahoma?  I know people from Stratford and Spearman, Texas saying that a couple of inches of snow isn't quite enough to slow down those towns, that many people will still drive on it (albeit very gingerly).

And I don't think there is any need for me to say what little it takes to shut down my area of Texas, but for those that still wonder: all it takes is temperatures simply approaching the freezing mark (no snow or ice required).

Anything over a few inches is enough to shut down Seattle and Vancouver. Though our situation is made much worse by the wet snow that re-freezes over and over, on top of being stuck to hills.

Which can be dealt with.  Houghton and Hancock, Michigan are on steep hills, and they get 200+ inches of snow per year, yet they manage to never actually shut down during any point during the winter.


The guy in the video stays to some of the slighter declines and inclines, but you'll get the idea.

But Michigan gets a buttload of snow every winter, so it's worth preparing for.  Seattle gets a little bit of snow every two or three winters, so it's less worthwhile having lots of plows and de-icer.

Max Rockatansky

In Chicago they don't need to worry about snow.  Since the entirety of Illinois is so flat (including Chicago) even an Entenmann's truck could do multiple spins in accumulated snow and not hit anything.

Scott5114

Quote from: jgb191 on April 23, 2022, 04:56:00 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
That's true. Perhaps, then, the ideal is something like Oklahoma City, which gets snow about once or twice a year at most, which is enough to justify having the infrastructure to handle it (plows, salt trucks, winterized power grid, etc.) but not often enough that there's a cultural expectation you have to keep carrying on your day-to-day routine when it snows. 

So you're saying that snowfall will cause a shut-down even as far north as Oklahoma?  I know people from Stratford and Spearman, Texas saying that a couple of inches of snow isn't quite enough to slow down those towns, that many people will still drive on it (albeit very gingerly).

It sort of varies on a person-to-person level. Some people (often the ones that own larger vehicles or who grew up further north) are gung-ho about going out in it. Other people aren't so much, especially those who live on back roads that are far enough off the grid that they don't ever get plowed. My parents grew up in Kansas City, so they're able to go out on it and be fine, but in practice they choose not to because they don't trust anyone else to be as competent behind the wheel as they are.

Bread-and-milk behavior is commonplace. Whether there is general amnesty for missing work because of inclement weather varies greatly from business to business. At my last job, they would stay open come hell or high water, and would count on a certain number of employees getting stuck there to conduct business operations (it would vary from event to event whether staying home would get you in trouble or not). My wife works at a different business in the same industry and they just close when it snows.

Personally, I'm content having the excuse to take a vacation day or two in the middle of winter, which I couldn't do if I lived further north.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

formulanone

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2022, 04:16:24 PM
Quote from: jgb191 on April 23, 2022, 04:56:00 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
That's true. Perhaps, then, the ideal is something like Oklahoma City, which gets snow about once or twice a year at most, which is enough to justify having the infrastructure to handle it (plows, salt trucks, winterized power grid, etc.) but not often enough that there's a cultural expectation you have to keep carrying on your day-to-day routine when it snows. 

So you're saying that snowfall will cause a shut-down even as far north as Oklahoma?  I know people from Stratford and Spearman, Texas saying that a couple of inches of snow isn't quite enough to slow down those towns, that many people will still drive on it (albeit very gingerly).

It sort of varies on a person-to-person level. Some people (often the ones that own larger vehicles or who grew up further north) are gung-ho about going out in it. Other people aren't so much, especially those who live on back roads that are far enough off the grid that they don't ever get plowed. My parents grew up in Kansas City, so they're able to go out on it and be fine, but in practice they choose not to because they don't trust anyone else to be as competent behind the wheel as they are.

Bread-and-milk behavior is commonplace. Whether there is general amnesty for missing work because of inclement weather varies greatly from business to business. At my last job, they would stay open come hell or high water, and would count on a certain number of employees getting stuck there to conduct business operations (it would vary from event to event whether staying home would get you in trouble or not). My wife works at a different business in the same industry and they just close when it snows.

Personally, I'm content having the excuse to take a vacation day or two in the middle of winter, which I couldn't do if I lived further north.

I was in Tulsa during the snow/ice storm of February 2021; there was nothing do be done with treating icy roads for several days. I'd guess that about only half the traffic showed up to the work site we were at that week. Luckily the commute was close and there was a grocery store and a Hideaway Pizza within walking distances (slippery conditions did not stop me from grabbing a Pollinator).

Basically, it seemed they could deal with the conditions about as well as most cities in the Deep South would have handled it...

Road Hog

We have a winter weather plan at my work based on who can make it in the morning (4WD or FWD vehicles, closeness to work, etc). Had to use it twice this winter but no worries.

kphoger

I work in cable.  Winter storm days are our busiest days.

My first day of work here, there had been a bad ice storm the night before.  I wasn't sure if I should come in or not–if the place would be open or not.  So I decided to come in, to be on the safe side on my first day of work.  Lo and behold! the place was absolutely crawling with activity.  Missing work here due to snowy conditions would be almost like not coming in to drive snowplow due to snowy conditions.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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