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Author Topic: Roundabout junctions  (Read 53213 times)

hbelkins

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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #75 on: September 18, 2010, 05:56:55 PM »

The above puts me in mind of a SPUI with a roundabout instead of a traffic light.
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mgk920

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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2010, 08:09:40 PM »

not yet I believe - but once the US 41 project is done there will be.

The first of two so far is under construction in Platteville on a new alignment to connect UW-Plateville to US 151.

There is a just-completed one on Ashland Ave just off of its connection with US 41 at the north edge of De Pere.

Mike
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2010, 07:39:23 PM »

Kansas is becoming quite fond of the stupid things, much to my chagrin; KDOT loves to construct them not just at "normal" places like urban areas and near freeway interchanges but also at random highway intersections in the middle of nowhere. Imagine driving along at 65 MPH for a few dozen miles and randomly being dumped into one. Bit jarring.

Same with Arizona! :pan: :banghead: :angry:
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2010, 08:36:15 PM »

Here's a better photo of the roundabout at the intersection of S.R. 5 and S.R 166, just south of Douglasville, Georgia.




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Here is one from New South Wales, Australia. Aussies have been using roundabouts for roughly 25 years.
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2010, 12:39:07 AM »

Kansas is becoming quite fond of the stupid things, much to my chagrin; KDOT loves to construct them not just at "normal" places like urban areas and near freeway interchanges but also at random highway intersections in the middle of nowhere. Imagine driving along at 65 MPH for a few dozen miles and randomly being dumped into one. Bit jarring.

Same with Arizona! :pan: :banghead: :angry:

Is it any more jarring than coming to a stop light or stop sign? 
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2010, 12:56:07 AM »


Is it any more jarring than coming to a stop light or stop sign?  

is that not jarring enough?  through traffic should not be stopped.

any interchange where mainline traffic, with a speed limit over 50 or so, has to come to a stop is a failure in design.  (well, it can be argued that any interchange where any traffic whatsoever has to come to a stop is a failure in design.  If I wanted to not be moving, I'd have stayed home!)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 12:58:49 AM by agentsteel53 »
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #81 on: September 30, 2010, 12:58:29 AM »

Quote
Kansas is becoming quite fond of the stupid things, much to my chagrin; KDOT loves to construct them not just at "normal" places like urban areas and near freeway interchanges but also at random highway intersections in the middle of nowhere. Imagine driving along at 65 MPH for a few dozen miles and randomly being dumped into one. Bit jarring.

Wait, so you're saying this is unnecessary?

jjakucyk

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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #82 on: September 30, 2010, 01:03:08 AM »


Is it any more jarring than coming to a stop light or stop sign? 

is that not jarring enough?  through traffic should not be stopped.

any interchange where mainline traffic, with a speed limit over 50 or so, has to come to a stop is a failure in design.  (well, it can be argued that any interchange where any traffic whatsoever has to come to a stop is a failure in design.  If I wanted to not be moving, I'd have stayed home!)

I think there might be some confusion over freeway type roads and rural 2-lane highways.  Of course in any fairly remote area with little traffic, nobody would have to stop for a roundabout, just slow down.  If there's two relatively equal highways intersecting, one will have to give way to the other in the case of stop signs or traffic signals, so somebody is going to be "jarred" in that instance.  Besides, maybe there's a high turning volume or just a lot of traffic in general, we don't really know.  Considering the amount of engineering that goes into a roundabout, they wouldn't have put it in if there wasn't a reason for it. 
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mgk920

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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2010, 11:43:53 AM »

I'm fully expecting most, if not all, of the rural state highway intersections here in Wisconsin that are now controlled with signals or all-way STOP signs to become roundabouts at their next scheduled rebuilds (assuming that they are not planned to be upgraded to grade-separated interchanges) - and there are such controls at quite a few pretty major highway intersections throughout the state.

WisDOT will also likely do that at those odd junctions where the major routing makes a 90 degree turn, many of which include an obsolete non-stop curve for that turn with the other roads connecting to it with a 'T' intersection in the middle of that curve.

For example, see:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.351565,-88.537724&spn=0.008853,0.021973&t=k&z=16
This is a short distance northwest of Appleton, WI.  The road making the turn is WI 76, Outagamie County 'O' heads off to the right.  WisDOT just rebuilt this intersection as a roundabout, it was completed about a month ago.

I also anticipate seeing WisDOT rebuilding the decades-obsolete US 12/WI 20/WI 67 intersection between Elkhorn and Whitewater, WI
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.799479,-88.563323&spn=0.009084,0.021973&t=k&z=16
as a roundabout within the next few years. (US 12 now makes the sharp turn there).  Even if/when WisDOT builds the proposed US 12 Elkhorn-Whitewater 'Corner Cut' freeway, this will remain an important intersection on the state highway system.

WisDOT also recently rebuilt a couple of BAD rural intersections along US 10 just southeast of Appleton (at WI 55 and at Calumet County 'N') as roundabouts.  Ditto the previously BAD intersection on a curve on WI 55 at Calumet/Outagamie County 'KK' in Kaukauna.

MANY others are coming within the next few years and the ones that now exist appear to be working well and have very good public acceptance.

Mike
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2010, 05:49:36 PM »

I see WisDOT's adding a pair of 'em to little old Medford up north next year, thus breaching into some new territory for roundabouts in WI.  They're certainly becoming the first choice for suburban/sprawl zone arterial intersections; their best application, incidentally.

Count me as a fan.  Beats the hell out of waiting for a goddamn left turn arrow.
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mgk920

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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #85 on: October 06, 2010, 02:27:07 AM »

I see WisDOT's adding a pair of 'em to little old Medford up north next year, thus breaching into some new territory for roundabouts in WI.  They're certainly becoming the first choice for suburban/sprawl zone arterial intersections; their best application, incidentally.

Count me as a fan.  Beats the hell out of waiting for a goddamn left turn arrow.

IIRC, WisDOT recently built one at either the US 2/US 63 intersection or the US 2/WI 13 (middle junction) intersection just west of Ashland, too.

A few state highway places where I'd like to see then added in Wisconsin (assuming that they have not yet been so planned or placed):

Where - (Current traffic control)
-WI 55/96 north split (Lawe/Green Bay/Delanglade Sts) in Kaukauna - (three STOP signs at a four-way intersection)
-WI 13/21 near Adams - (four-way STOP)
-WI 21/49 near Auroraville - (four-way STOP)
-US 41/WI 125 (College Ave) ramp intersections (Appleton) - (signals)
-US 41/WI 96 (Wisconsin Ave) ramp intersections (Appleton) - (signals)
-US 41/WI 15 (Northland Ave) ramp intersections (Appleton) - (signals)
-WI 441/College Ave ramp intersections (Appleton) - (signals)
-WI 441/Calumet St ramp intersections (Appleton) - (signals)
-US 10/WI 114 west split (Menasha) - (signals)
-US 10/WI 32/57 (Forest Junction) - (signals)
-WI 76/Outagamie County 'JJ' in Greenville area - (four-way STOP)
-WI 76/96 just west of Appleton - (signals)

Mike
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #86 on: October 06, 2010, 06:52:30 PM »

IIRC, WisDOT recently built one at either the US 2/US 63 intersection or the US 2/WI 13 (middle junction) intersection just west of Ashland, too.

It's the US 2/WI 13 jct west of Ashland. And it's going in next year.
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us2wis13/index.htm

-WI 441/College Ave ramp intersections (Appleton) - (signals)
-WI 441/Calumet St ramp intersections (Appleton) - (signals)

That would compliment the ramp terminal roundabouts WisDOT has in the works for that proposed 441 rebuild/expansion rather nicely.

Some good spots Up Nort':
All of the traffic light controlled intersections on the US 8/WI 47 & WI 17 Rhinelander bypasses
US 8 & US 45's two junctions in Monico
US 8 and Lincoln CTH's A & L
US 8 & WI 27, Ladysmith (might be a tight squeeze)
the US 51/WI 70 junctions in Woodruff
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2010, 07:12:33 AM »

Over the past several months, I've been pondering not so much a list of specific junctions for roundabouts, but the types of intersections that would be good candidates for roundabouts.  Here's some category examples:

- Rural 2-lane/2-lane intersections with traffic signals.  Two candidate examples would be US 71/MN 7 south of Willmar, MN and US 75/US 212 south of Madison, MN.  Another example recently converted to a roundabout is US 15/US 50 at Gilbert's Corner, VA.

- Rural 2-lane/2-lane intersections with all-way stop control.  Candidate examples include MS 13/MS 28 west of Magee, MS or MS 13/MS 18 at Puckett, MS.

- Rural 4-lane/2-lane intersections with all-way stop control and no more than moderate traffic.  Specifically thinking of US 45/MS 16 in Scooba, MS and US 45/MS 14 in Macon, MS here, though US 11/US 80 near Cuba, AL is another example.

- Rural 2-lane/2-lane intersections with stop control only on one road but moderate traffic on both roads.  Especially if there's a history of accidents at the intersection.  MN 7/MN 25 west of St. Bonifacious, MN is a recent conversion.

- Interchange ramp terminals with moderate traffic.  The first roundabouts in Minnesota, at the I-35 Medford exit (Exit 48/Steele CSAH 12) fall under this category, in part due to the nearby outlet mall.  Another example built about 5 or so years ago is the then-new I-95/495 DC Beltway interchange at Richie-Marlboro Rd (Exit 13).  Using roundabouts enabled MD SHA to provide an acceptable level-of-service without having to replace the Beltway bridges over the road (which would have been needed in order to widen Richie-Marlboro Rd for left turn lanes).
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english si

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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2010, 07:29:39 AM »

You have six routes coming together - either you can have a complex signalised thing with channels and all sorts, or you can have big roundabout that's hard to get on due to speed, or you can have a Magic roundabout. They really aren't that hard to drive, when you realise that you just give way to the right (left in drive-on-right countries, but they don't have them). This one even has signs reminded you to give way to right. It's fun to go the 'wrong way' around them, compared to if it wasn't two way around the roundabout.
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2010, 09:07:20 AM »

To be fair, cases where 6 routes come together are pretty rare on this side of the pond.  Not unheard of, but rare.
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #91 on: October 07, 2010, 11:20:23 AM »

To be fair, cases where 6 routes come together are pretty rare on this side of the pond.  Not unheard of, but rare.

the one place you seem to get them a lot is Washington DC, but that is of course a 1790s layout. 

I suddenly wonder if Washington's near-miss intersections, in which two junctions (each with their own independent set of traffic signals) are separated by as little as 30-40 feet, could be improved, from a perspective of safety and efficiency, by replacing traffic signals with roundabouts. 

I know I've run a red light in Washington because one light turned green and the next one did not.  I had thought that both sets of lights were for the same intersection, and the one that was red was for some obscure branch (because the entire complex did feature 5 or 6 roads coming together), as opposed to telling me to come to a complete stop after crossing the first street and then traveling a whopping 15 feet thereafter.
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #92 on: October 07, 2010, 11:30:42 AM »

In 5 or 6-way intersections like the examples above, roundabouts can actually be rather difficult to implement.  If all legs of the intersection are equally arranged around the circle it's easier, but still can be a problem.  The main issue is that to accommodate the proper entry and exit geometries of the approach legs, the circle itself needs to be enlarged.  That's a big no-no in modern roundabouts because it encourages higher speeds around the circle and thus makes it more difficult to merge into it.  

A good example of this problem is the traffic circle in Pinehurst, NC (note I said traffic circle, not roundabout).  It's so large you could built a modern roundabout and all its approach streets entirely within the confines of the existing circle.  Because of this, the speeds around the circle are on the order of 35 MPH, making merging in very difficult and causing long queues during busy periods.  However, notice how tight the two roads on the left (NC-211 and NC-2) are already.  To accommodate that with a smaller circle would require all the approach roads to be squished around to give more room and even then it still might be compromised.  I'm not saying it can't be done of course, but it's much much more difficult and unlikely to be implemented.  I also doubt we'd ever see a magic roundabout in this country.

Something I would hope to see more study of is the turbo roundabout.  This is something that's pretty new to the world, but it shows a lot of promise for accommodating higher traffic volumes while eliminating the problems of a multi-lane circle (namely getting stuck on the inside lane and cutting off people on the outside lane while exiting).  It uses a pinwheel geometry to gradually throw the inside lane of the "circle" outwards, so you pick your lane before entering the junction, and never have to weave to exit.  The only real downside is that it may not allow for u-turns, and it might not accommodate more than 4 legs at all.  The one in the picture must have some really high traffic volume since it appears to be signalized (note the stop lines inside the "circle"), but I don't know the history of that one.  It isn't quite as safe as a normal modern roundabout because some of the entering traffic is crossing perpendicular to circulating traffic rather than simply merging into it.  Still, it's a compelling design, and in fact it's even in the 2009 MUTCD.  In chapter 3C, diagrams 3C-5 and 3C-12 are both full true turbo roundabouts, while some of the other diagrams have a few aspects of it, but they aren't complete.  The difference is that the pinwheel effect is done with painted lane markings rather than any hardscape geometry.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 11:33:57 AM by jjakucyk »
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agentsteel53

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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #93 on: October 07, 2010, 01:14:34 PM »

traffic circle in Pinehurst, NC (note I said traffic circle, not roundabout).

what is the difference?  and, while we're at it, what's a rotary?
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2010, 01:22:26 PM »

Traffic circles and rotaries (those two terms are basically interchangeable) are typically larger, operate at higher speeds, and often give priority to entering traffic as compared to roundabouts.  They also have much more lax geometries than modern roundabouts, which can lead to unsafe merging or weaving across lanes. 

The first modern roundabout in the USA was built in 1990, so anything older than that is a traffic circle.  Some old traffic circles have had their geometries improved where possible, and most cases where the circulating traffic had to yield to entering traffic has been corrected, because it would easily cause the circle to lock up.  They're still likely to have an overly large circle and thus higher speeds than desired.  It's a case where higher speed results in lower capacity, which seems counterintuitive, but that's how it really works.
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2010, 01:40:14 PM »

In 5 or 6-way intersections like the examples above, roundabouts can actually be rather difficult to implement.  If all legs of the intersection are equally arranged around the circle it's easier, but still can be a problem.  The main issue is that to accommodate the proper entry and exit geometries of the approach legs, the circle itself needs to be enlarged.  That's a big no-no in modern roundabouts because it encourages higher speeds around the circle and thus makes it more difficult to merge into it.
In the UK, people don't seem to have that much of a problem with roundabouts with high circulatory speeds. There's quite a few, normally at freeway intersections, or in new build towns, where you can get up to 30-40mph easily (there's one in Skelmersdale which is a mile around and you can easily do the 60mph speed limit, but also no traffic), but the merging is normally OK on these big roundabouts, depending on traffic levels. The Pyebush roundabout in Beaconsfield has a large radius (by no means the largest) and traffic heads round it at 40mph, it's fairly heavily trafficked, but people don't seem to have trouble getting onto it.

OK, many large roundabouts have been signalised, like the turbo roundabout, only with less channelisation (one or two have colour coding to make it easier to follow the spiral pattern, and u-turns aren't too difficult, or having 5 or 6 exits), or have been turned into magic roundabouts, like the example I gave. Of course, I never suggested a roundabout for 5- or 6-way junctions, I suggested magic roundabouts for them.

Here's a turbo roundabout, UK style. It's in a place that ought to have some kind of stack and it struggles with traffic levels, but it has also (unlike almost everywhere) got colour-coding for the right turns - red for E to N, green for S to E, yellow for W to S and grey (lighter than the tarmac) for N to W. Here's a version with 7 roads, and no colour coding - this (1.3 miles around, IIRC) didn't use to be signal controlled, but it, again, ought to have some free-flow ramps due to traffic levels and the roundabout doesn't give enough capacity without signals. One of the entrances is still a yield. There's probably a better example than that second one, but it shows a couple of points - that you can have more than 4 entrances, and you can have yields onto high speed roundabouts and not have much problem.

What's an old roundabout? Traffic Circle? I'm just confused as modern roundabout seems to just be a plain vanilla, small roundabout - nothing modern about them, just that they are only 30 years old in America.
what is the difference?  and, while we're at it, what's a rotary?
Traffic circles are yield to traffic entering, Roundabouts are yield on entrance. That is the difference, not geometry or size. Unless this is a US English/UK English discrepancy.
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #96 on: October 07, 2010, 01:46:37 PM »

Traffic circle is mostly a US term, but regardless the distinction is definitely more than just who gives way, geometry and size are a big part of it too.  The Wikipedia article explains all the differences pretty well:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #97 on: October 07, 2010, 01:54:40 PM »

Here's an example in Sweden where there's no yield or stop lines. You'll need to zoom in to see the markings properly but the entrances/exits are treated as lane gains/drops, possibly with similar weaving to that in cloverleafs.
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2010, 02:10:36 PM »

Traffic circle is mostly a US term, but regardless the distinction is definitely more than just who gives way, geometry and size are a big part of it too.  The Wikipedia article explains all the differences pretty well:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout
It's a US/UK difference then (with wikipedia written by Americans) - we have some traffic circles (with priority on entry), but big fast things are roundabouts if you give way on entry or used to, before they put up traffic lights.
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Re: Roundabout junctions
« Reply #99 on: October 07, 2010, 03:02:46 PM »

this better be signed explicitly with a yield sign, because goodness knows I'm not going to remember who has to yield to whom when I approach a State of Ohio Officially Approved Cyclic Traffic Interchange Mechanism, after crossing in from Indiana, where their Indiana Toll Road Authority Circumferential Vehicle Distribution Interface had a completely different set of rules.
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