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Tolls proposed for Cottonwood Canyons

Started by US 89, January 25, 2018, 12:58:15 AM

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Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Rothman on September 02, 2022, 11:12:43 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 02, 2022, 09:32:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 02, 2022, 09:30:26 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 02, 2022, 09:29:17 PM
I think it'll still look good. There are hundreds of canyons like this you can go to that won't have gondolas.
You are wrong.
I'm driving to Zion for the weekend I'll respond to this nonsense when I get to the hotel.
No matter your location, you'll still be wrong. :D
we'll see about that


US 89

I'm not a fan, and not just for the "how dare you ruin my view". If the idea was to mitigate avalanche closures, they should have built snow sheds on 210. This is not going to solve weather issues - chairlifts and gondolas and things of that sort can't run in high winds, which are fairly common in the mountains and often come along with the storms that tend to cause the biggest avalanche issues on 210. Given how often the ski resorts up there have wind holds on their existing lifts, this is a very real issue that gondola proponents seem to have conveniently ignored.

This also gives no thought to all the people that go up this canyon to do something other than ski at Snowbird or Alta. Plenty of people snowshoe or backcountry ski or whatever in the lower and middle canyon. Buses could at least stop at the big trailheads whereas a gondola obviously can't. And whatever restrictions/tolls get put on 210 to incentivize people to use the gondola are going to apply to everyone. I see it as a scheme to convert those people currently using our public lands for free into paying customers at private ski resorts.

And even at maximum capacity, the gondola can only carry 35 people up every 2 minutes. For something that's going to cost over a half billion dollars, I expect better.

skluth

Quote from: Rothman on September 02, 2022, 11:12:43 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 02, 2022, 09:32:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 02, 2022, 09:30:26 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 02, 2022, 09:29:17 PM
I think it'll still look good. There are hundreds of canyons like this you can go to that won't have gondolas.
You are wrong.
I'm driving to Zion for the weekend I'll respond to this nonsense when I get to the hotel.
No matter your location, you'll still be wrong. :D
Many would find the canyon already ruined as there's an ugly highway going down it. I'm sure the view on busy traffic days is far uglier. I personally think a gondola would look far more peaceful than a highway.

Gondolas can also move large numbers of people as cities like La Paz and Bogota in South America have proved. They can also have stops along the way; this map of La Paz shows how an entire city can be connected by gondolas.

i-215

#53
Kids, kids, kids... you're BOTH wrong.

Let's settle this with the obvious answer:  Convert SR-210 in a FULL FREEWAY, with interchanges!   :bigass:



Rothman

Quote from: i-215 on September 26, 2022, 07:26:16 PM
Kids, kids, kids... you're BOTH wrong.

Let's settle this with the obvious answer:  Convert SR-210 in a FULL FREEWAY, with interchanges!   :bigass:



You monster!
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

armadillo speedbump

Good point on evil gondolas destroying everything.  Note how California and the rest of the civilized world have boycotted France, Switzerland, Italy, Germany, and Austria because of their many aura ruining gondolas.  Backwards countries that never cared about aesthetics or the environment.  Who can enjoy the Alps nowadays? 

No denying that gondolas cause climate change, too.

But look nearby at how gondolas destroyed Albuquerque.  Once they erected that on Sandia Peak the angry residents revolted.  No longer able to live and work in peace with such a monstrosity hulking over their midst, they turned to a life of crime that continues to this day.  Heed their warning or prepare for Straight Outta Cottonwood!

Rothman

We aren't talking about a glorified ski lift that goes up a mountain like those in the Alps, but one that will be the means of transportation through a canyon.  It will ruin the scenic nature of the canyon, myopically only caring about getting people to the private ski resorts rather than the various other recreational activities that people participate in year round...all at taxpayer expense.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Plutonic Panda

Yeah, I just drove through here a few weeks ago. I don't think it'll ruin the natural beauty at all. I also think it'll bring more people closer to nature, which is always great. At any rate, there are tons of other natural areas around Salt Lake City that won't have these horrible gondolas you can go to.

Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Rover_0

Quote from: i-215 on September 26, 2022, 07:26:16 PM
Kids, kids, kids... you're BOTH wrong.

Let's settle this with the obvious answer:  Convert SR-210 in a FULL FREEWAY, with interchanges!   :bigass:




"Doesn't 210 take you to West Valley and Magna?"

"No, that's 201."

"Oh."  😉
Fixing erroneous shields, one at a time...

Rothman

Quote from: Rover_0 on September 27, 2022, 02:51:00 PM
Quote from: i-215 on September 26, 2022, 07:26:16 PM
Kids, kids, kids... you're BOTH wrong.

Let's settle this with the obvious answer:  Convert SR-210 in a FULL FREEWAY, with interchanges!   :bigass:




"Doesn't 210 take you to West Valley and Magna?"

"No, that's 201."

"Oh."  
You mean 21st... ;D
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

US 89

Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 03:18:33 PM
Quote from: Rover_0 on September 27, 2022, 02:51:00 PM
Quote from: i-215 on September 26, 2022, 07:26:16 PM
Kids, kids, kids... you're BOTH wrong.

Let's settle this with the obvious answer:  Convert SR-210 in a FULL FREEWAY, with interchanges!   :bigass:




"Doesn't 210 take you to West Valley and Magna?"

"No, that's 201."

"Oh."  
You mean 21st... ;D

Someone's showing their age... :-D

Plutonic Panda


Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

US 89

This is now back in the news, after some public meetings where tolls for Big Cottonwood Canyon (SR 190) were discussed...

https://kutv.com/news/utahs-growing-pains/udot-proposes-tolls-for-big-cottonwood-canyon-to-ease-congestion-wasatch-front-utah-ski-resorts

Personally, I am not a fan at all of this plan as this suggests that resort skiers are the only people who use this canyon. This takes congestion brought on by them and distributes the negative incentive to drive to the resorts as a regressive tax to all canyon users, including backcountry skiers, hikers, and snowshoers (whose average socioeconomic status is probably lower than that of the average resort skier - have you seen how much a lift ticket costs these days?).

There are also a good number of backcountry trailheads in the canyons that a bus likely wouldn't stop at. I just see the whole thing as prioritizing rich resort skiers at the expense of people looking to use public national forest land, for whom a toll is likely going to be a more significant amount of money. It's also not exactly fair to be paying tolls for a road your tax dollars are already paying for.

The actual solution should involve dedicated bus lanes as much as can be done, allowing buses to bypass traffic, and more bus service. That is going to require cooperation from UTA, who every year pulls the same sorry excuse of there being a "shortage" of bus drivers. As far as I'm concerned, this is not an issue if you're willing to pay them good money, which is clearly there based on what's going to be spent on these projects. If the goal is truly to eliminate congestion in the canyons and get people in buses instead, then the easy solution is to work with the resorts to charge for parking, and to work with UTA to actually have meaningfully improved bus service. As things stand right now, people are actually not opposed to taking the bus! Nobody likes driving in mountain traffic, especially if weather is questionable. But wait times tend to be very long, and especially if you're coming down the canyon and getting on somewhere halfway down, you might be waiting even longer for a bus that isn't already full with people from above.

Rothman

I'm still angered by the idea of the gondola in Little Cottonwood.  What a blight on the scenery.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

paulthemapguy

From the OP: "Tolling is going be a big part of what we do to incentivize people to carpool and get on a bus to get up Little Cottonwood Canyon," he said.

Nothing in the OP about adding, you know, the buses...

A gondola would be a really cool idea. It would leave a much smaller impact on the scenery than another roadway or something.

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Rothman

Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 25, 2024, 03:00:38 PMFrom the OP: "Tolling is going be a big part of what we do to incentivize people to carpool and get on a bus to get up Little Cottonwood Canyon," he said.

Nothing in the OP about adding, you know, the buses...

A gondola would be a really cool idea. It would leave a much smaller impact on the scenery than another roadway or something.



A big view people go up the canyon to see is looking back out towards the Salt Lake Valley.  A gondola would ruin it.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

paulthemapguy

Quote from: Rothman on November 25, 2024, 04:18:33 PMA big view people go up the canyon to see is looking back out towards the Salt Lake Valley.  A gondola would ruin it.

Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 09:43:38 AMSki areas are hardly natural areas.

Which is it?

A gondola fits in better with a snow-laden landscape than any other transportation mode. It's kind of a big ski lift.  Some capsules or chairs hanging from cables. Not a big deal.
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
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TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: Every US Route and (fully built) Interstate has a photo now! Just Alaska and Hawaii left!

Plutonic Panda

They either need to build a gondola or widen the road to add bus lane shoulders. In my opinion when they say towing the road to reduce traffic I just take that as pricing people out so the rich who this won't affect in the slightest can get to where they wanna go faster while making the poor, take buses and discouraging them from visiting this beautiful area. I don't think I've gondola would make all that much of an impact on the area. Yeah you'll have the towers that connect the lines but the lines aren't that visible. The only other thing that would be visible would be the capsules or the gondolas themselves that trans people. Having been to this area recently and seen it myself that would actually be kind of cool to see that. But I don't see why they also if it is such a big deal couldn't just widen the road a little bit just enough to add shoulders that buses could use to bypass traffic. No tolls.

Rothman

Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 25, 2024, 04:44:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 25, 2024, 04:18:33 PMA big view people go up the canyon to see is looking back out towards the Salt Lake Valley.  A gondola would ruin it.

Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 09:43:38 AMSki areas are hardly natural areas.

Which is it?

A gondola fits in better with a snow-laden landscape than any other transportation mode. It's kind of a big ski lift.  Some capsules or chairs hanging from cables. Not a big deal.

Surely you can see how both can be true, or you are not familiar with the area.  The ski areas are far up the canyon, while the view is down the canyon.

So, yes, big deal.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

US 89

Yep, bus lanes and snow sheds are the real answer to this issue. Assuming bus service can actually be increased as promised.

Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 25, 2024, 04:44:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 25, 2024, 04:18:33 PMA big view people go up the canyon to see is looking back out towards the Salt Lake Valley.  A gondola would ruin it.

Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 09:43:38 AMSki areas are hardly natural areas.

Which is it?

A gondola fits in better with a snow-laden landscape than any other transportation mode. It's kind of a big ski lift.  Some capsules or chairs hanging from cables. Not a big deal.

The ski resorts are at the upper end of the canyons. There is plenty of backcountry and wilderness between the resorts and canyon mouths that I can respect efforts to preserve those areas. I also am not sure how a gondola is that much worse for natural views than a road, which we already have... also, that view looks out on the decidedly unnatural urban sprawl that is the southern end of the Salt Lake Valley...

The real issue I have with the gondola is that it will cost 729 million dollars to initially build, it will be expensive to operate, it can only carry 16 people a minute on average, it won't be able to operate in anything resembling high winds or avalanche danger, one of the support towers is actually in an avalanche path... just seems to me like a huge waste of money to not meaningfully improve anything.

Rothman

Quote from: US 89 on November 26, 2024, 04:14:16 PMYep, bus lanes and snow sheds are the real answer to this issue. Assuming bus service can actually be increased as promised.

Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 25, 2024, 04:44:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 25, 2024, 04:18:33 PMA big view people go up the canyon to see is looking back out towards the Salt Lake Valley.  A gondola would ruin it.

Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 09:43:38 AMSki areas are hardly natural areas.

Which is it?

A gondola fits in better with a snow-laden landscape than any other transportation mode. It's kind of a big ski lift.  Some capsules or chairs hanging from cables. Not a big deal.

The ski resorts are at the upper end of the canyons. There is plenty of backcountry and wilderness between the resorts and canyon mouths that I can respect efforts to preserve those areas. I also am not sure how a gondola is that much worse for natural views than a road, which we already have... also, that view looks out on the decidedly unnatural urban sprawl that is the southern end of the Salt Lake Valley...


Really.  Imagine this photo with a gondola riding up the middle of it:



QuoteThe real issue I have with the gondola is that it will cost 729 million dollars to initially build, it will be expensive to operate, it can only carry 16 people a minute on average, it won't be able to operate in anything resembling high winds or avalanche danger, one of the support towers is actually in an avalanche path... just seems to me like a huge waste of money to not meaningfully improve anything.

Agreed.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Plutonic Panda

I think that photo with a gondola in it would look awesome. There are tons and tons of valleys you can go to where there won't ever be a gondola.

Plutonic Panda

As for the capacity carrying only 16 people a minute seems wrong. The proposed gondola in LA claims it can carry 5k people per hour

QuoteWhen completed, the proposed project would have a maximum capacity of approximately 5,000 people per hour per direction, and the travel time between Union Station and Dodger Stadium would be approximately seven minutes.

https://www.metro.net/projects/aerial-rapid-transit/



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