Traffic signal

[jakeroot]

Seattle never ceases to confuse me.

I have no idea how long these have been in place, but SDOT has installed a 4-section FYA where the bottom arrow is bi-modal (see 0:04 below):

https://youtu.be/2znH9az2WpE
(reinserted video, since it's a new page)

No idea if this is allowed, but I suspect it probably isn't (at least when four heads are used -- obviously normal practice for certain 3-head FYAs). Not sure what the advantage would be either, except that the top solid yellow would only be used at the end of a permissive phase, and the bottom only being used at the end of the protected phase. It's the one thing about FYAs that's always bothered me.

Definitely not MUTCD-approved. I don't get the reasoning for that.

Jake, are you saying that using the steady yellow to end both permissive and protected lefts is what bothers you? Why?

While the solid yellow arrow means the same thing at the end of both phases, in the permissive phase, there are oncoming drivers who may still be in the intersection, and any drivers that floor it on solid yellow, mistakenly believing that they had a green arrow just a second ago, may unintentionally drive straight into oncoming traffic. For the most part, this is pretty unlikely, since drivers should be able to recognize whether there are cars in front of them turning, or if there are already vehicles in the intersection (and deduce from either of those things whether or not their, or, someone else's right-of-way is ending). Nevertheless, it is an ambiguity that bothers me, and while it may not actually be a true problem, it's an issue that 5-section signals did not have.

[MNHighwayMan]

Jakeroot, you may or may not find this interesting, but I kind of did: far left-side mast-mounted signals in Iowa. All four protected/permissive left turns at US-65/69 and Iowa 92 in Indianola have these. This is the only example of them I've ever seen (or remember seeing) in the state.



All I can figure is that the intersection is busy and the light cycles are pretty short, and/or Iowa DOT was having crash/safety problems with the intersection. It's not really an irregular intersection otherwise.

[jakeroot]

Jakeroot, you may or may not find this interesting, but I kind of did: far left-side mast-mounted signals in Iowa. All four protected/permissive left turns at US-65/69 and Iowa 92 in Indianola have these. This is the only example of them I've ever seen (or remember seeing) in the state.

https://i.imgur.com/DorVF4l.jpg

All I can figure is that the intersection is busy and the light cycles are pretty short, and/or Iowa DOT was having crash/safety problems with the intersection. It's not really an irregular intersection otherwise.

Indeed, very interesting! Especially on all four corners. Far left green orb repeaters are quite rare in Washington State (though there are some examples, usually due to visibility), outside of Spokane (where left and right repeaters have been standard for many years) and Pullman. Are all types of left side mast signals rare in Iowa?

Mast signals have become standard in many areas of Washington lately, such as Federal Way (left and right side), Bellevue (95% left), most of Auburn (left or right, sometimes both), areas of Vancouver (left and right sometimes), occasionally in Renton and Tukwila (random, usually left side), parts of Snohomish County (often left or right), major roads in Pierce County (right only), and many state highway intersections lately as well (sometimes left and/or right). No idea why the sudden change. Many of these (except in Spokane and Bellevue) have popped up in the last 15 years. WSDOT recently activated a single-lane left turn with four signals, two overhead and one on the left and right. They've gone mad!

[Brandon]

Jakeroot, you may or may not find this interesting, but I kind of did: far left-side mast-mounted signals in Iowa. All four protected/permissive left turns at US-65/69 and Iowa 92 in Indianola have these. This is the only example of them I've ever seen (or remember seeing) in the state.



All I can figure is that the intersection is busy and the light cycles are pretty short, and/or Iowa DOT was having crash/safety problems with the intersection. It's not really an irregular intersection otherwise.

I fail to anything odd about it.  Looks like a typical intersection in the state to your east, in Illinois: https://goo.gl/maps/GhSG1EX2ML82

[paulthemapguy]

Here's a weird signal in Park Forest, IL.  Three 4-section heads face the northbound traffic.  Southbound setup is even weirder because the signals are all 8-inchers.  Didn't have time to get a photo of those, though.  Here's a GSV looking southbound https://goo.gl/maps/Riq4Y1AQBpw


20180703_120526 by Paul Drives, on Flickr


20180703_120528 by Paul Drives, on Flickr


20180703_184621 by Paul Drives, on Flickr

[jakeroot]

Jakeroot, you may or may not find this interesting, but I kind of did: far left-side mast-mounted signals in Iowa. All four protected/permissive left turns at US-65/69 and Iowa 92 in Indianola have these. This is the only example of them I've ever seen (or remember seeing) in the state.

https://i.imgur.com/DorVF4l.jpg[/img

All I can figure is that the intersection is busy and the light cycles are pretty short, and/or Iowa DOT was having crash/safety problems with the intersection. It's not really an irregular intersection otherwise.

I fail to anything odd about it.  Looks like a typical intersection in the state to your east, in Illinois: https://goo.gl/maps/GhSG1EX2ML82

Illinois is among the minority of states that use left-side mast or pole signals. When they pop up in states that don't use them, it's fair to consider it unusual or odd.

[US71]

Illinois is among the minority of states that use left-side mast or pole signals. When they pop up in states that don't use them, it's fair to consider it unusual or odd.

Seems like I saw a couple in South Dakota once.

I've always been a fan of post signals. Most show more imagination than mast mounted signals.

[jakeroot]

Illinois is among the minority of states that use left-side mast or pole signals. When they pop up in states that don't use them, it's fair to consider it unusual or odd.

Seems like I saw a couple in South Dakota once.

I've always been a fan of post signals. Most show more imagination than mast mounted signals.

I totally agree, I think they're a great addition to any intersection. Not using them is asking for trouble; inability to see signals over tall vehicles, improved peripheral recognition, general redundancy, etc.

I don't know of any states from Ohio -> east that use pole signals extensively. New York City, Pennsylvania, and Mass seem to have quite a few, but not sure if they're still installed. It seems to be a western thing. They're standard in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, Idaho (on the right), Montana (on the right), South Dakota, Alaska, Hawaii, Wyoming, Nebraska (on the right), Iowa (on the right), Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota (on the right), and in many cities in Washington nowadays (as I noted above). Oregon and Utah are seriously lacking when visibility is normal. I don't know of any cities in either that use them without it being a requirement by the state due to visibility.

[cl94]

Illinois is among the minority of states that use left-side mast or pole signals. When they pop up in states that don't use them, it's fair to consider it unusual or odd.

Seems like I saw a couple in South Dakota once.

I've always been a fan of post signals. Most show more imagination than mast mounted signals.

I totally agree, I think they're a great addition to any intersection. Not using them is asking for trouble; inability to see signals over tall vehicles, improved peripheral recognition, general redundancy, etc.

I don't know of any states from Ohio -> east that use pole signals extensively. New York City, Pennsylvania, and Mass seem to have quite a few, but not sure if they're still installed.

They are still standard and installed at large intersections in New York City, as NYCDOT continues to use the guyed mast arms. Also somewhat common in New Jersey, though decreasing in frequency now that they're switching from truss arms to standard mast arms (Alps and/or signalman could confirm whether or not they're still installed). Massachusetts still installs pole-mounted signals on occasion and many left turn signals (FYA, doghouse, or protected) in the state have a secondary far-left post mount.

New York (state) has started installing near-side post-mounted signals at large intersections.

[paulthemapguy]

Almost every single Illinois signal uses the post-mounted install at the far left corner.  And most signals along truck routes, and many not along them, ALSO use a post-mounted signal head at the near-right corner.  Adding the post-mounted signals is nice because they add another place to house crosswalk signals on the same post.

[jakeroot]

Almost every single Illinois signal uses the post-mounted install at the far left corner.  And most signals along truck routes, and many not along them, ALSO use a post-mounted signal head at the near-right corner.  Adding the post-mounted signals is nice because they add another place to house crosswalk signals on the same post.

Looking at it from a different angle, posts that are exclusively for pedestrian heads (in states that don't normally use post mounted signals) make a great pole for an extra signal.

[Revive 755]

I don't know of any states from Ohio -> east that use pole signals extensively. New York City, Pennsylvania, and Mass seem to have quite a few, but not sure if they're still installed. It seems to be a western thing. They're standard in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, Idaho (on the right), Montana (on the right), South Dakota, Alaska, Hawaii, Wyoming, Nebraska (on the right), Iowa (on the right), Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota (on the right), and in many cities in Washington nowadays (as I noted above). Oregon and Utah are seriously lacking when visibility is normal. I don't know of any cities in either that use them without it being a requirement by the state due to visibility.

There is at least one intersection pole mounted supplemental heads on the left in Lincoln, Nebraska, although they are back to back with heads for on the right for the opposing direction:

Highway 2 at 84th Street

I thought there were a few more, but I am only finding ones side mounted on mast arm shafts.

[roadman65]

Almost every single Illinois signal uses the post-mounted install at the far left corner.  And most signals along truck routes, and many not along them, ALSO use a post-mounted signal head at the near-right corner.  Adding the post-mounted signals is nice because they add another place to house crosswalk signals on the same post.

I think Florida should do that as the normal MUTCD mounts cannot be seen when a semi or any truck is three or four car lengths in front of you.  Having the side mounts is a help as if we had them here we could all see around the large vehicle.

In NJ we always had a left side left turn signal in addition to the above ( which I though was normal everyplace until I left the state) which helps to a degree as well.

[jakeroot]

I don't know of any states from Ohio -> east that use pole signals extensively. New York City, Pennsylvania, and Mass seem to have quite a few, but not sure if they're still installed. It seems to be a western thing. They're standard in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, Idaho (on the right), Montana (on the right), South Dakota, Alaska, Hawaii, Wyoming, Nebraska (on the right), Iowa (on the right), Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota (on the right), and in many cities in Washington nowadays (as I noted above). Oregon and Utah are seriously lacking when visibility is normal. I don't know of any cities in either that use them without it being a requirement by the state due to visibility.

There is at least one intersection pole mounted supplemental heads on the left in Lincoln, Nebraska, although they are back to back with heads for on the right for the opposing direction:

Highway 2 at 84th Street

I thought there were a few more, but I am only finding ones side mounted on mast arm shafts.

Oh nice! I didn't see any when I was checking around Google Maps. That intersection is actually really well signalized. Near side on all approaches, and a far left and far right repeater for all approaches as well. Everyone should do this!

[jakeroot]

"Let's make sure to hang the signals, so they sit right behind the power lines".

:facepalm:

25 Ave W @ 164 St SW, Lynnwood, WA

[index]

Street viewing around the other day, I found a bascule bridge with really, really old signals to stop traffic, that also has a really weird find.


https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9152224,-78.9008564,3a,40y,268.24h,97.23t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sy8pv2TBM3YvW7achXYRntQ!2e0!5s20170801T000000!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9152229,-78.9009519,3a,42.2y,266.48h,119.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_K9828kIpF28EiZMG6I3lA!2e0!5s20110901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9152243,-78.9008377,3a,15.4y,267.48h,97.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSnMsr3MZEEeeCaU5cNvQ2Q!2e0!5s20110901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Good god, what?? By the looks of it, the right one is in a box of sorts. The other one's in a broken box. Very weird. I don't know what it's doing there.


https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9151665,-78.9015959,3a,41.9y,351.04h,84.35t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWuLMiVVmXb0o_uJwFzWYhQ!2e0!5s20170801T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Extra 12-8-8 signalization. These ones are a teal color. Reminds me of some of LADOTD's older signals.


More 12-8-8s.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.915258,-78.902768,3a,51.3y,116.32h,94.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sp2prifDoC-jjHrh-N27FvA!2e0!5s20170801T000000!7i13312!8i6656


If you look closely at the signals, you'll see that some of them have netting over the visors. Even the cap visors. This is one of the oddest setups I've seen in a while...

[jakeroot]

More 12-8-8s.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.915258,-78.902768,3a,51.3y,116.32h,94.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sp2prifDoC-jjHrh-N27FvA!2e0!5s20170801T000000!7i13312!8i6656

I find this one intriguing, as green signals are displayed only feet from a stop sign. Doubt anyone is confused by it at this point, but I think "be prepared to stop when flashing" signs might have been better (if such existed at the time this was installed).



WSDOT installed this new signal in Lynnwood a couple weeks ago, and it has something rather unusual going on. Instead of a standard 4-section signal, this one is a 5-section signal, and the bottom two sections are parallel. Not sure what they display, though. Two green arrows, obviously, with one pointing left. Just not sure what the right-hand signal head displays. I don't believe the off-ramp was a double right turn.

[roadfro]

Street viewing around the other day, I found a bascule bridge with really, really old signals to stop traffic, that also has a really weird find.


https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9152224,-78.9008564,3a,40y,268.24h,97.23t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sy8pv2TBM3YvW7achXYRntQ!2e0!5s20170801T000000!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9152229,-78.9009519,3a,42.2y,266.48h,119.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_K9828kIpF28EiZMG6I3lA!2e0!5s20110901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9152243,-78.9008377,3a,15.4y,267.48h,97.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSnMsr3MZEEeeCaU5cNvQ2Q!2e0!5s20110901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Good god, what?? By the looks of it, the right one is in a box of sorts. The other one's in a broken box. Very weird. I don't know what it's doing there.


https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9151665,-78.9015959,3a,41.9y,351.04h,84.35t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWuLMiVVmXb0o_uJwFzWYhQ!2e0!5s20170801T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Extra 12-8-8 signalization. These ones are a teal color. Reminds me of some of LADOTD's older signals.


More 12-8-8s.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.915258,-78.902768,3a,51.3y,116.32h,94.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sp2prifDoC-jjHrh-N27FvA!2e0!5s20170801T000000!7i13312!8i6656


If you look closely at the signals, you'll see that some of them have netting over the visors. Even the cap visors. This is one of the oddest setups I've seen in a while...

I'm guessing the boxed signal heads and the one with netting are attempts to prevent birds from nesting in the signal visors.

[Brandon]

Street viewing around the other day, I found a bascule bridge with really, really old signals to stop traffic, that also has a really weird find.

Speaking of drawbridges, here's what one typically finds for them around Chicago: https://goo.gl/maps/czyKW8C6NXG2

[index]

Street viewing around the other day, I found a bascule bridge with really, really old signals to stop traffic, that also has a really weird find.


https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9152224,-78.9008564,3a,40y,268.24h,97.23t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sy8pv2TBM3YvW7achXYRntQ!2e0!5s20170801T000000!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9152229,-78.9009519,3a,42.2y,266.48h,119.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_K9828kIpF28EiZMG6I3lA!2e0!5s20110901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9152243,-78.9008377,3a,15.4y,267.48h,97.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSnMsr3MZEEeeCaU5cNvQ2Q!2e0!5s20110901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Good god, what?? By the looks of it, the right one is in a box of sorts. The other one's in a broken box. Very weird. I don't know what it's doing there.


https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9151665,-78.9015959,3a,41.9y,351.04h,84.35t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWuLMiVVmXb0o_uJwFzWYhQ!2e0!5s20170801T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Extra 12-8-8 signalization. These ones are a teal color. Reminds me of some of LADOTD's older signals.


More 12-8-8s.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.915258,-78.902768,3a,51.3y,116.32h,94.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sp2prifDoC-jjHrh-N27FvA!2e0!5s20170801T000000!7i13312!8i6656


If you look closely at the signals, you'll see that some of them have netting over the visors. Even the cap visors. This is one of the oddest setups I've seen in a while...

I'm guessing the boxed signal heads and the one with netting are attempts to prevent birds from nesting in the signal visors.

Very possible, although that may not explain the ones with the cap visors, unless birds can nest in those too. I wouldn't know enough about birds to say.

[ErmineNotyours]

If you look closely at the signals, you'll see that some of them have netting over the visors. Even the cap visors. This is one of the oddest setups I've seen in a while...

Where I grew up, the textural WALK and DONT WALK signs had hoods around them, like traffic lights.  I got to visit the state capitol of Olympia where for the first time I saw more of a grid in front of the signs to keep the sunlight out, something that's standard now.  I asked my uncle what those were for, and he growled, "It's to keep people from throwing rocks at them!"  So that's my theory for the screening.

[MikeCL]

I saw this when I was camping in Clifton, NY

I never seen a setup like this.. I assume the two lights talk to each other?

The other light was at the other end of the bridge

[MikeCL]

"Let's make sure to hang the signals, so they sit right behind the power lines".

:facepalm:

25 Ave W @ 164 St SW, Lynnwood, WA

That's nothing.. I gotta post the new lights they put up in Stamford with the new Home Depot lots of lines cut in front of the lights looks a mess

[MikeCL]

Almost every single Illinois signal uses the post-mounted install at the far left corner.  And most signals along truck routes, and many not along them, ALSO use a post-mounted signal head at the near-right corner.  Adding the post-mounted signals is nice because they add another place to house crosswalk signals on the same post.

I think Florida should do that as the normal MUTCD mounts cannot be seen when a semi or any truck is three or four car lengths in front of you.  Having the side mounts is a help as if we had them here we could all see around the large vehicle.

In NJ we always had a left side left turn signal in addition to the above ( which I though was normal everyplace until I left the state) which helps to a degree as well.

Here in Weehawken it's odd how they do the lights here they put them at the extreme left of a intersection on a short pole arm.. if one is not looking it's very easy to run a red light

[MikeCL]

...Sometimes, I'll even sit in the through lane, wait for the light to turn green, and then slide over into the left turn lane just so that oncoming cars can get a move on (cameras are common here so I can't trick it by positioning myself any other way). Many left turn signals in my area have a minimum green arrow time of at least five or six seconds (long after one car has cleared the intersection), which I consider to be insultingly long (really should only be green if someone is waiting behind the stop line -- minimum maybe closer to two or three seconds would be better).

That would seem awfully confusing to drivers behind you.  The traffic designers do everything based on normal expectations of drivers, so don't worry if you're making opposing traffic wait.  You don't know how the next signal they encounter will affect them, so your hard work of letting them go here may just let them get stuck at the next red light anyway.

As far as for the length of the green, I'm used to the green being as long as necessary. If there's only one car, that green arrow should have turned to yellow before the car even completed the turn.  Anything else does seem excessive.

Well, as you might imagine, the maneuver is only possible when traffic is generally quiet, so I'm not particularly worried about what others around me are thinking. I'd prefer to see oncoming traffic get a move on first so that they have a better chance of making the next green. I don't know what signal they are eventually approaching, of course. But I do know that the longer they wait at the current signal, the less likely they are to make the next signal (should it be green).

Yes, the green arrow phases around here seem excessive. This is the main motive behind my maneuver. Sometimes I'll see them last 10+ seconds without any cars approaching. It's extremely tedious waiting for these types of lights to change, so I try to not set them off.

I do wish more intersections have smart traffic lights... don't give free arrows to the turning lane if no cars are in it!! I not sure if that's a major upgrade but I know some if only one car is in the turning lane and the other side has no car then only one side gets the free arrow to turn.