News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

PA Turnpike News

Started by mightyace, February 16, 2009, 05:29:14 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Crown Victoria

Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 16, 2020, 09:14:10 PM
Quote from: Crown Victoria on June 16, 2020, 08:54:17 PM
The good news is that, unless something changes, FY 2022 is the last year that the PTC will owe $450 million to PennDOT.  Starting in FY 2023 that payment goes down to $50 million. Of course the debt from over a decade of excessive Act 44 payments will take much longer to be paid off...

I think that is correct on all points.

Quote from: Crown Victoria on June 16, 2020, 08:54:17 PM
Finding funding for mass transit is more complex in PA than simply raising the gas tax, and is partly the reason for Act 44 in the first place. In PA, gas taxes, car registration fees, and some other funding sources are constitutionally limited to roads and cannot be used for transit. So, even if a regional gas tax were implemented (which would be a hard sell in a state with the second-highest gas taxes to begin with), those revenues would only be able to go to roads. Act 89 (which partially sunsets the Act 44 transfers in 2022) will use motor vehicle sales taxes to make up the $400 million that the Turnpike will no longer provide. Those are revenues that may need to be made up elsewhere i.e. higher taxes...

My understanding from a friend who is a transit geek (especially SEPTA) is that the prohibition on diversion of fuel taxes away from highways applies to taxes collected at the retail level (pump), but that the prohibition does not apply to taxes collected at the wholesale level.

Virginia passed a large increase in the Commonwealth's motor fuel tax and imposed all of it at the wholesale level for similar  reasons.

The PA Constitution makes no distinction between retail and wholesale gas taxes. The only loophole is the part about safety, which enables the diversion of gas taxes to the State Police (which is itself controversial).
https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=00&div=0&chpt=8&sctn=11&subsctn=0

Although our gas taxes are all collected at the wholesale level, they still cannot be used to fund transit, hence the problem with the Turnpike and Act 44 (no prohibition on toll revenue usage=non-tax source of funds).


MASTERNC

Maybe it's just luck but I seem to be having a ton of E-ZPass billing issues with the Turnpike this month.  I use the North Carolina E-ZPass but also have a New York E-ZPass for travel to that state (my car has been registered to both for years).  I made a trip on July 1 and just noticed that my NC transponder was read (and billed) but I was also charged on my NY account via license plate lookup a week later (transaction times were identical).  I was also overcharged for another trip in the Philly area (the amount didn't even match up to a different axle count, and my return toll was correct). 

Bitmapped

Quote from: MASTERNC on July 16, 2020, 04:31:20 PM
Maybe it's just luck but I seem to be having a ton of E-ZPass billing issues with the Turnpike this month.  I use the North Carolina E-ZPass but also have a New York E-ZPass for travel to that state (my car has been registered to both for years).  I made a trip on July 1 and just noticed that my NC transponder was read (and billed) but I was also charged on my NY account via license plate lookup a week later (transaction times were identical).  I was also overcharged for another trip in the Philly area (the amount didn't even match up to a different axle count, and my return toll was correct).
It probably read both transponders. I have a WV E-ZPass and always see the license plate shown in records from PA reads.

briantroutman

For what it's worth, I have a PTC-issued transponder and have made a number of weekend trips involving various roads in the PTC network and in neighboring states, and I haven't encountered any misreads or billing errors.

Rothman

Quote from: MASTERNC on July 16, 2020, 04:31:20 PM
Maybe it's just luck but I seem to be having a ton of E-ZPass billing issues with the Turnpike this month.  I use the North Carolina E-ZPass but also have a New York E-ZPass for travel to that state (my car has been registered to both for years).  I made a trip on July 1 and just noticed that my NC transponder was read (and billed) but I was also charged on my NY account via license plate lookup a week later (transaction times were identical).  I was also overcharged for another trip in the Philly area (the amount didn't even match up to a different axle count, and my return toll was correct).
Two transponders?  Penny wise...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

cpzilliacus

Saw the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission's E-ZPass test site on the I-476 Northeast Extension of the Turnpike.  It spans the Turnpike between the Keyser Avenue interchange (Exit 122) and Clarks Summit (I-81, U.S. 11, U.S. 6) (Exit 131).  I was  not able to safely stop and snap an image, but its appearance was different from other gantries on the PTC network. 

More can be found here.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

MASTERNC

Quote from: Bitmapped on July 17, 2020, 11:56:21 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on July 16, 2020, 04:31:20 PM
Maybe it's just luck but I seem to be having a ton of E-ZPass billing issues with the Turnpike this month.  I use the North Carolina E-ZPass but also have a New York E-ZPass for travel to that state (my car has been registered to both for years).  I made a trip on July 1 and just noticed that my NC transponder was read (and billed) but I was also charged on my NY account via license plate lookup a week later (transaction times were identical).  I was also overcharged for another trip in the Philly area (the amount didn't even match up to a different axle count, and my return toll was correct).
It probably read both transponders. I have a WV E-ZPass and always see the license plate shown in records from PA reads.

Actually the other transponder wasn't even in the car.  I did receive a reversal the next day, though not before I was hit with $50 of reloads.

Quote from: Rothman on July 19, 2020, 08:27:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on July 16, 2020, 04:31:20 PM
Maybe it's just luck but I seem to be having a ton of E-ZPass billing issues with the Turnpike this month.  I use the North Carolina E-ZPass but also have a New York E-ZPass for travel to that state (my car has been registered to both for years).  I made a trip on July 1 and just noticed that my NC transponder was read (and billed) but I was also charged on my NY account via license plate lookup a week later (transaction times were identical).  I was also overcharged for another trip in the Philly area (the amount didn't even match up to a different axle count, and my return toll was correct).
Two transponders?  Penny wise...

When NYC area bridges penalize you significantly for not using their E-ZPass, you hold two accounts.  The NC one allows HOT lane access around DC as well.

J N Winkler

I suspect these cases of double-billing where the same car is registered to two different transponders under the same interoperability network are the result of license plates receiving priority over transponders in the toll processing control flow.  I wonder what would happen if the license plate number was temporarily changed for the transponder that is not currently being used, so that in-network license plate lookup (if used as an alternative to a read from the transponder being used) lands on the account that is intended to be charged.

This situation is actually another argument for a ban on transponder discrimination since it eliminates the incentive to have multiple transponders from the same interoperability network.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

jeffandnicole

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 20, 2020, 11:30:08 AM
I suspect these cases of double-billing where the same car is registered to two different transponders under the same interoperability network are the result of license plates receiving priority over transponders in the toll processing control flow.  I wonder what would happen if the license plate number was temporarily changed for the transponder that is not currently being used, so that in-network license plate lookup (if used as an alternative to a read from the transponder being used) lands on the account that is intended to be charged.

This situation is actually another argument for a ban on transponder discrimination since it eliminates the incentive to have multiple transponders from the same interoperability network.

License plates are only supposed to be viewed if the tag isn't read when the car goes thru the tolling area.  This process usually take a few days as well to go thru the back office.  There's not enough staff to monitor the hundreds of thousands of tag reads every day.

Flyer78

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 20, 2020, 03:51:22 AM
Saw the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission's E-ZPass test site on the I-476 Northeast Extension of the Turnpike.  It spans the Turnpike between the Keyser Avenue interchange (Exit 122) and Clarks Summit (I-81, U.S. 11, U.S. 6) (Exit 131).  I was  not able to safely stop and snap an image, but its appearance was different from other gantries on the PTC network. 

More can be found here.

I noticed the northbound side appears to have the extra classification equipment (there are more devices pointed at the lanes) - or perhaps a different product.

It seems an interesting choice, northbound, that they placed a portable message sign in what would be the left lane to remind not to stop (seems like there is ample room at the shoulder, or to use one of the right lanes for such notice). I wonder if they will post overhead signs over each lane or opt for a different system for all lanes that either use the prism or fixed signage. (I assume the LED versions all have been updated with E-Z Pass or TOLL BY PLATE icons).

MASTERNC

The 6% toll increase and 45% billing surcharge have now been approved.  However, they are taking effect in January (as usual) rather than earlier (as previously reported)

https://liber.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/07/21/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-toll-increase-E-ZPass-Toll-By-Plate-surcharge/stories/202007210058

J N Winkler

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 20, 2020, 03:55:21 PMLicense plates are only supposed to be viewed if the tag isn't read when the car goes thru the tolling area.  This process usually take a few days as well to go thru the back office.  There's not enough staff to monitor the hundreds of thousands of tag reads every day.

Masternc says he did not have the transponder for the North Carolina account in his car when he was charged the "foreign" E-ZPass toll.  This is why I hypothesize they were searching for his license plate number and found it first with the NC account.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

MASTERNC

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 21, 2020, 10:44:36 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 20, 2020, 03:55:21 PMLicense plates are only supposed to be viewed if the tag isn't read when the car goes thru the tolling area.  This process usually take a few days as well to go thru the back office.  There's not enough staff to monitor the hundreds of thousands of tag reads every day.

Masternc says he did not have the transponder for the North Carolina account in his car when he was charged the "foreign" E-ZPass toll.  This is why I hypothesize they were searching for his license plate number and found it first with the NC account.

It was the other way around.  The NC tag was in the car and the NY tag was not.  Somehow the toll was charged to the transponder yet was still sent to license plate lookup.

SignBridge

Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

cpzilliacus

Quote from: SignBridge on July 21, 2020, 08:55:15 PM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

Also much more expensive.  Staffing toll collection points 24/7/365 is not cheap, and on the Pennsylvania Turnpike there were a lot of them. Collecting, counting, securing, transporting and processing all of that cash is also expensive.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

ixnay

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2020, 08:34:45 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 21, 2020, 08:55:15 PM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

Also much more expensive.  Staffing toll collection points 24/7/365 is not cheap, and on the Pennsylvania Turnpike there were a lot of them. Collecting, counting, securing, transporting and processing all of that cash is also expensive.

I think SignBridge meant for the consumer.  Yes, cpz, what you listed is true - expensive for the agency operating the road or crossing.

But in the COVID-19 era, are we to consider AET a blessing (in disguise or otherwise), since there is no cash to be handled?

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: ixnay on July 22, 2020, 08:41:36 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2020, 08:34:45 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 21, 2020, 08:55:15 PM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

Also much more expensive.  Staffing toll collection points 24/7/365 is not cheap, and on the Pennsylvania Turnpike there were a lot of them. Collecting, counting, securing, transporting and processing all of that cash is also expensive.

I think SignBridge meant for the consumer.  Yes, cpz, what you listed is true - expensive for the agency operating the road or crossing.

But in the COVID-19 era, are we to consider AET a blessing (in disguise or otherwise), since there is no cash to be handled?

ixnay

I think it's much easier for the consumer as well.  You fly thru a lane and keep going.

ixnay

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 22, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: ixnay on July 22, 2020, 08:41:36 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2020, 08:34:45 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 21, 2020, 08:55:15 PM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

Also much more expensive.  Staffing toll collection points 24/7/365 is not cheap, and on the Pennsylvania Turnpike there were a lot of them. Collecting, counting, securing, transporting and processing all of that cash is also expensive.

I think SignBridge meant for the consumer.  Yes, cpz, what you listed is true - expensive for the agency operating the road or crossing.

But in the COVID-19 era, are we to consider AET a blessing (in disguise or otherwise), since there is no cash to be handled?

ixnay

I think it's much easier for the consumer as well.  You fly thru a lane and keep going.

Yes, I know what's that like (as a driver and as a passenger).   "Pay your toll while you roll" - I remember that slogan from a radio spot for Delaware E-ZPasses in the early 2000's.

SignBridge, are you nostalgic also for lonnnnng toll gate backups?  Be careful what you pine for.

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

1995hoo

I think back to how much time was wasted waiting on line to pay the tolls in the cash-only era. My father's strategy was always to go as far to the right at the toll plaza as possible. Reason: Trucks are almost always directed to stay to the right. There are far fewer trucks per line than there are cars and you often got through faster in those lanes even though trucks are slower to accelerate away than cars are.

Look at what a mess you get when the E-ZPass Only lanes are simply converted cash lanes with no significant barrier separation from the cash lanes. The Tydings Bridge toll plaza in Maryland was long a good example of that, as cash-payers would bomb down the approach to the E-ZPass lanes and then block everyone trying to shove right to cut the line.

Last time we drove to Montreal, I estimated we probably saved 20 minutes to half an hour by using E-ZPass due to some of the toll plazas having fairly long queues.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jmacswimmer

#2494
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 22, 2020, 09:26:39 AM
I think back to how much time was wasted waiting on line to pay the tolls in the cash-only era. My father's strategy was always to go as far to the right at the toll plaza as possible. Reason: Trucks are almost always directed to stay to the right. There are far fewer trucks per line than there are cars and you often got through faster in those lanes even though trucks are slower to accelerate away than cars are.

Look at what a mess you get when the E-ZPass Only lanes are simply converted cash lanes with no significant barrier separation from the cash lanes. The Tydings Bridge toll plaza in Maryland was long a good example of that, as cash-payers would bomb down the approach to the E-ZPass lanes and then block everyone trying to shove right to cut the line.

That was always my exact strategy at the very same Tydings Bridge toll plaza (before I got E-ZPass, anyway).  At least when MDTA recently resurfaced the approach & departure from that toll plaza, they did a better job separating the E-ZPass lanes on approach via lane striping and E-ZPass markers on the pavement - usually those lanes wouldn't get messed up by cash queuing in recent experiences.

(Currently there is none of that mess since MDTA still has yet to resume cash collections, but that's neither here nor there.)
"Now, what if da Bearss were to enter the Indianapolis 5-hunnert?"
"How would they compete?"
"Let's say they rode together in a big buss."
"Is Ditka driving?"
"Of course!"
"Then I like da Bear buss."
"DA BEARSSS BUSSSS"

vdeane

#2495
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 22, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: ixnay on July 22, 2020, 08:41:36 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2020, 08:34:45 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 21, 2020, 08:55:15 PM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

Also much more expensive.  Staffing toll collection points 24/7/365 is not cheap, and on the Pennsylvania Turnpike there were a lot of them. Collecting, counting, securing, transporting and processing all of that cash is also expensive.

I think SignBridge meant for the consumer.  Yes, cpz, what you listed is true - expensive for the agency operating the road or crossing.

But in the COVID-19 era, are we to consider AET a blessing (in disguise or otherwise), since there is no cash to be handled?

ixnay

I think it's much easier for the consumer as well.  You fly thru a lane and keep going.
From a time saved perspective, perhaps, but it introduces issues.  If you don't have a transponder, you have to hope everything works properly with bill by mail, lest you get late and nonpayment fees (often exorbitant) added on top of your bill by mail and plate lookup surcharges (themselves often on top of a higher bill by mail toll rate).  Even if you do have a transponder, there are often tag deposits and/or annual fees, and transponder discrimination is more common than not.  Back when cash was king, the toll was the toll was the toll - everybody paid the same rate, nothing added on top.  That is unfortunately no longer.  While discounts for transponder users do make sense from the perspective that it costs less to collect tolls from them, it has gotten well out of hand.

This doesn't even go into the issues experienced by drivers of rental cars.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

SignBridge

Thank you vdeane for those good points! All of you have made good points too. It's worth noting however that some of the time saved on the road with E-Z Pass is lost in other ways.

1) Setting up your account, passwords etc.

2) Mounting the device on your car. Having to get new mounting strips when you get a new car.

3) Checking your statement when you receive it. Potential billing errors requiring corrective action, etc.

I was fortunate that most of my long distance toll-road trips thru the years were made mid-week/mid-day so luckily I didn't encounter many toll plaza back-ups, so I don't have those bad memories. And yeah, I have to agree it's nice to just glide thru those express E-Z Pass lanes where they exist. But being an old school kind of guy, I just preferred the older less complicated ways.



seicer

The amount of time I save from not having to stop -one time- at the Throgs Neck Bridge to have my transponder read more than offsets going to a website to set up an account (took 10 minutes with my NY transponder using my mobile device and Lastpass), mounting the EZ Pass in 1 minute and never having to replace the mounting strips (because my car is 4 years old and how often do you replace cars?), and reading my email with my attached statement, which takes all of 1 to 5 minutes (as a frequent user).

I find it less complicated to just drive through at highway speeds than to sit at a toll plaza for 30 minutes, fish for change or dollar bills (or worse, exact change) or wait to have the transponder read before a gate, but your mileage may vary. It is far faster, though, to just use EZ Pass; the other details, such as installing the EZ Pass and going to the website, take so little time to complete.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: SignBridge on July 22, 2020, 09:36:00 PM
2) Mounting the device on your car. Having to get new mounting strips when you get a new car.

How much f'ing time does it take you to mount the EZ Pass that this could possibly have been thought of as an excuse?

ilpt4u

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 22, 2020, 11:05:07 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 22, 2020, 09:36:00 PM
2) Mounting the device on your car. Having to get new mounting strips when you get a new car.

How much f'ing time does it take you to mount the EZ Pass that this could possibly have been thought of as an excuse?
Even if you have to get the Front License Plate mount transponder, due to windshield/car issues with having it inside the glass, it STILL saves time over 1 rush hour wait at a Cash Only booth. It doesn't take that long to find a screwdriver, unscrew two screws, and then tighten them back down

I remember as a kid, sitting in extremely long holiday waits at the 82nd/83rd St and 163rd St Tolls on ISTHA's Tri-State. Guess what? Even when Low Speed I-Pass Only lanes were first installed at 82nd/83rd St, and then at 163 St, it made a difference. When the I-Pass Express/ORT conversion occurred, it was a night and day difference compared to Cash only tolling



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.