Carmakers like VW are bringing back buttons because drivers loathe all the touch

[SectorZ]

The problem is that modern cars have so many functions that if you had physical buttons for everything it'd look like this

video snipped

Totally down with that. More buttons and gauges the better. Once I have the muscle memory and layout memorized I'm good.

[Rothman]

Someone doesn't remember the wonderful era of a zillion needle gauges on one's dashboard.

[SEWIGuy]

IMO, radio is preferable to the costly subscription services which are hard to get out of.

Have you tried to get out of SiriusXM? It's a single phone call. It's no trouble at all.

If you have an online account, it's two mouse clicks.

[kkt]

Someone doesn't remember the wonderful era of a zillion needle gauges on one's dashboard.

For very small values of a zillion.  Speedo, tach, oil pressure, temp, alternator, gas.  That's about it.

A modern car measures a lot more but it's not really important.  MPG?  I have a gas gauge and an odometer, I know if something's wrong.  Air pressure, but it's a stupid measurement based on tire rotations, not actual pressure, so you still need your own tire pressure gauge.  All routed through one flakey microprocessor.

[seicer]

IMO, radio is preferable to the costly subscription services which are hard to get out of.

Really?

I had a trial subscription to SiriusXM, which took all of 5 minutes to cancel. I went to their website and canceled it in just a few clicks. You can call them and cancel it in an equal amount of minutes.

Spotify can be canceled in just two minutes if you go to your device's subscription settings or through the app itself, depending on whether you are using Android or Apple.

But why would I listen to the Radio, which plays about 8 to 10 songs per hour? Add in commercial breaks and promotions and a less-than-ideal audio quality, and it's no wonder that the format is dying a quick death. Apple Music and Spotify add so much more value for not a lot of money, with easy methods to discover new music, find the music you already listen to, curate playlists, follow playlists of others, and get high-quality audio. I suppose it's not free, but Spotify at least has a free, ad-supported tier that plays many more songs per hour than radio.

Add in that Spotify has extensive podcast capabilities that make longer drives tolerable. Long-form audio has long been abandoned by commercial radio.

[vdeane]

Eh, I still find data privacy concerns overblown, considering the level of harm that could really come from it to me, personally.

I find Bluetooth and the ability to make hands-free calls and the like invaluable while driving.

Yeah if a car company wants to collect my data, I have no idea what they are going to do with it, but more power to them. They will figure out I drive a lot, have a lot of pictures of my dogs on my phone, and have a weird obsession with buttery love songs from the 1970s.

Anyway I use Sirius XM and cycle through about fifteen or so different stations on any ride.

It's amazing how much you can figure out from such data.  Imagine figuring out someone has cancer based on which doctor's offices they drive to and when (or other, more political, medical things).

[kalvado]

It's amazing how much you can figure out from such data.  Imagine figuring out someone has cancer based on which doctor's offices they drive to and when (or other, more political, medical things).

Gps is more of a phone function, so it's mighty Google area
I doubt cars can collect GPS data without very clearly spelling that out

[jeffandnicole]

It's amazing how much you can figure out from such data.  Imagine figuring out someone has cancer based on which doctor's offices they drive to and when (or other, more political, medical things).

Gps is more of a phone function, so it's mighty Google area
I doubt cars can collect GPS data without very clearly spelling that out

It could be spelled out but easily missed.

Owners manuals are hundreds of pages long, and are rarely reviewed by drivers, which could have the disclosure of collection of data via GPS.  Or, if you click "I agree" on the vehicle's smartscreen, stating that you are now aware the vehicle has a GPS device that can track you, most users are probably not going to read that screen and aren't going to be aware what they agreed to before the pull out of the driveway.

But you probably don't need the car for that info anyway.  Your phone is going to track that for you since it'll probably know the exact room you're in, not just the parking lot of the building you're at.

[hotdogPi]

Phones don't track location unless something is requesting it. Unless you're using a GPS, this won't happen. Check your rate of battery drain when you're using location services compared to when you're not.

[Thing 342]

Phones don't track location unless something is requesting it. Unless you're using a GPS, this won't happen. Check your rate of battery drain when you're using location services compared to when you're not.

Not true, cell carriers know quite a bit about device locations (from both GPS and cellular triangulation) and have mixed retention policies for said data: https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/29/tech/wireless-carriers-locations-fcc/index.html

[kalvado]

Phones don't track location unless something is requesting it. Unless you're using a GPS, this won't happen. Check your rate of battery drain when you're using location services compared to when you're not.

Phones may do a lot of funny stuff.
If you have android, check out http://maps.google.com/timeline
And see what Google knows about you

[kalvado]

It's amazing how much you can figure out from such data.  Imagine figuring out someone has cancer based on which doctor's offices they drive to and when (or other, more political, medical things).

Gps is more of a phone function, so it's mighty Google area
I doubt cars can collect GPS data without very clearly spelling that out

It could be spelled out but easily missed.

Owners manuals are hundreds of pages long, and are rarely reviewed by drivers, which could have the disclosure of collection of data via GPS.  Or, if you click "I agree" on the vehicle's smartscreen, stating that you are now aware the vehicle has a GPS device that can track you, most users are probably not going to read that screen and aren't going to be aware what they agreed to before the pull out of the driveway.

But you probably don't need the car for that info anyway.  Your phone is going to track that for you since it'll probably know the exact room you're in, not just the parking lot of the building you're at.

Someone would still find out. It's pretty well known that each car sold in US since 20xx has a cellular data link, for example. I don't think gps is mentioned in that context.

[vdeane]

Phones don't track location unless something is requesting it. Unless you're using a GPS, this won't happen. Check your rate of battery drain when you're using location services compared to when you're not.

Phones may do a lot of funny stuff.
If you have android, check out http://maps.google.com/timeline
And see what Google knows about you

I specifically disabled the tracking in my Google settings.  It's amazing how few people bother doing such things.  Then again, maybe that's why Google is willing to offer the setting in the first place...

[jeffandnicole]

Phones don't track location unless something is requesting it. Unless you're using a GPS, this won't happen. Check your rate of battery drain when you're using location services compared to when you're not.

Phones may do a lot of funny stuff.
If you have android, check out http://maps.google.com/timeline
And see what Google knows about you

I specifically disabled the tracking in my Google settings.  It's amazing how few people bother doing such things.  Then again, maybe that's why Google is willing to offer the setting in the first place...

Honestly, I've found it useful on occasion. I have a pretty boring life so if they want to track me, whatevs.

[SEWIGuy]

Someone doesn't remember the wonderful era of a zillion needle gauges on one's dashboard.

For very small values of a zillion.  Speedo, tach, oil pressure, temp, alternator, gas.  That's about it.

A modern car measures a lot more but it's not really important.  MPG?  I have a gas gauge and an odometer, I know if something's wrong.  Air pressure, but it's a stupid measurement based on tire rotations, not actual pressure, so you still need your own tire pressure gauge.  All routed through one flakey microprocessor.

It's easier to have my car calculate my MPG and I haven't had a pressure gague in my car for years. The tire pressure measurement is great when you are driving and there is a problem. I've had it recognize a problem long before I did.

[Rothman]

My car's pressure reporting system is pretty good.  Within just 1 psi of whatever gauge measures it, whether my own $2 gauge or the one on the air machine or...

[ZLoth]

Lived in northern WI.  Never had issues with my car's CD player.

Lucky you. That's the type of engineering that had to go into a CD player or tape player for the environment that isn't faced with a home CD player.

If I go into Android Settings → Connected Devices → Communications Preferences → Driving Mode, that's way more time having to touch the gross hell rectangle than I can take the psychic damage from. If I have to go four levels deep into a menu just to tell a device not to be annoying, that device has failed at its job.

Did you even give it a try? This "four levels deep" is a one-time configuration so that when your phone sees that it is connecting to a particular bluetooth device, it will go into "Do Not Disturb" mode automatically.

And it doesn't even sound like that would help, considering I connect with an aux cable. I drive a 2009 Pontiac.

Here is a Bluetooth Speaker that appears to fit in a cup holder. But yeah, what I described only works with Bluetooth, not a aux cable. And, while I'm sure that there are aftermarket kits for adding Bluetooth to your existing radio, what's the cost-benefit?

IMO, radio is preferable to the costly subscription services which are hard to get out of.

I differ. I set up a personal media server so that I can stream (and download) music and audiobooks so that I can listen without the talking heads or the endless commercials. It was a bit of a pain to set up and rip all of my media, but the convenience is well worth it.

And remember, if you aren't paying for the product, you are the product as a advertising target.

I specifically disabled the tracking in my Google settings.  It's amazing how few people bother doing such things.  Then again, maybe that's why Google is willing to offer the setting in the first place...

Does that mean you don't watch any of the television streaming service (either paid or free) at all either? There's plenty to derive from your viewing habits, time of viewing, and location based upon IP address.

Also, using a credit card or debit card? Location, time of day, where you shopped at.

[GaryV]

I saw a billboard yesterday about not using your phone while driving. I thought it was silly that it said something about "hands-free driving" being required. Really? I think I need to use my hands while driving.

[SEWIGuy]

Eh, I still find data privacy concerns overblown, considering the level of harm that could really come from it to me, personally.

I find Bluetooth and the ability to make hands-free calls and the like invaluable while driving.

Yeah if a car company wants to collect my data, I have no idea what they are going to do with it, but more power to them. They will figure out I drive a lot, have a lot of pictures of my dogs on my phone, and have a weird obsession with buttery love songs from the 1970s.

Anyway I use Sirius XM and cycle through about fifteen or so different stations on any ride.

It's amazing how much you can figure out from such data.  Imagine figuring out someone has cancer based on which doctor's offices they drive to and when (or other, more political, medical things).

<shrug>

My privacy expectations aren't all that high. I pretty much assume anytime I use my phone or drive my car something is tracking me. Again, I don't really know what harm that actually does to me.

[vdeane]

Does that mean you don't watch any of the television streaming service (either paid or free) at all either? There's plenty to derive from your viewing habits, time of viewing, and location based upon IP address.

Also, using a credit card or debit card? Location, time of day, where you shopped at.

So, because some things have tracking (sometimes impossible to provide the service without, like credit cards), we shouldn't keep the issue from getting worse?  There's also the matter of degree.  I can turn my phone off (mine even lets me remove the battery).  I can pay with a cash, or split charges between different cards.  Not driving my car is a bigger ask.

As I mentioned, I take steps to limit my exposure to this stuff.  I'm honestly surprised that so few people do and that even suggesting that privacy is a thing to value seems to be such an unpopular opinion.

<shrug>

My privacy expectations aren't all that high. I pretty much assume anytime I use my phone or drive my car something is tracking me. Again, I don't really know what harm that actually does to me.

Maybe you'd feel differently if you were a member of a social group whose very existence has become politicized.  Or of the government becomes paranoid again.  I'm honestly surprised they never took the data from licence plate readers to pull over cars with "suspicious" routes (which would, I presume, include any roadgeek trip that is pure route clinching) for questioning.

[kalvado]

Eh, I still find data privacy concerns overblown, considering the level of harm that could really come from it to me, personally.

I find Bluetooth and the ability to make hands-free calls and the like invaluable while driving.

Yeah if a car company wants to collect my data, I have no idea what they are going to do with it, but more power to them. They will figure out I drive a lot, have a lot of pictures of my dogs on my phone, and have a weird obsession with buttery love songs from the 1970s.

Anyway I use Sirius XM and cycle through about fifteen or so different stations on any ride.

It's amazing how much you can figure out from such data.  Imagine figuring out someone has cancer based on which doctor's offices they drive to and when (or other, more political, medical things).

<shrug>

My privacy expectations aren't all that high. I pretty much assume anytime I use my phone or drive my car something is tracking me. Again, I don't really know what harm that actually does to me.

As @vdeane said, it's a matter of degree. Feel free to collect data for statistical purposes without unnecessary personalization. For actual crime investigation (do you know that adultery is a crime in NY?). Recent trend to use criminal prosecution as political tool isn't encouraging, though.
A lot of employers may be eager to use data they are not entitled to. Requests to review social network accounts, including personal messages, during hiring do exist. Taking day off for an interview with competitor? Going to political event after work? These can easily lead to consequences...

[SEWIGuy]

Sounds like a place I wouldn't want to work for anyway.

[jeffandnicole]

I'm honestly surprised they never took the data from licence plate readers to pull over cars with "suspicious" routes (which would, I presume, include any roadgeek trip that is pure route clinching) for questioning.

While there's a little truth to this, what may seem suspicious to us isn't really all that suspicious or entertaining to law enforcement.  People make wrong turns and go indirect ways all the time. People taking roads less traveled are still on roads that are traveled.

Liken it to a bunch of teens and 20-somethings meeting up for a bonfire or party or drinking spot (which is a surprising example from me, being I've never been to one of these).  Google data could point to a "delay" in what should be an unusual area.

As @vdeane said, it's a matter of degree. Feel free to collect data for statistical purposes without unnecessary personalization. For actual crime investigation (do you know that adultery is a crime in NY?). Recent trend to use criminal prosecution as political tool isn't encouraging, though.
A lot of employers may be eager to use data they are not entitled to. Requests to review social network accounts, including personal messages, during hiring do exist. Taking day off for an interview with competitor? Going to political event after work? These can easily lead to consequences...

If your profiles and posts are public, companies aren't doing anything wrong. Anyone is entitled to view public information.  I don't know of any company that has a right to contact a company to gain access to private profiles or posts, and social media companies wouldn't give access to such.  As it is, even law enforcement needs to provide a warrant to access someone's private info if it's in regard to criminal research.

[kalvado]

I'm honestly surprised they never took the data from licence plate readers to pull over cars with "suspicious" routes (which would, I presume, include any roadgeek trip that is pure route clinching) for questioning.

While there's a little truth to this, what may seem suspicious to us isn't really all that suspicious or entertaining to law enforcement.  People make wrong turns and go indirect ways all the time. People taking roads less traveled are still on roads that are traveled.

Liken it to a bunch of teens and 20-somethings meeting up for a bonfire or party or drinking spot (which is a surprising example from me, being I've never been to one of these).  Google data could point to a "delay" in what should be an unusual area.

As @vdeane said, it's a matter of degree. Feel free to collect data for statistical purposes without unnecessary personalization. For actual crime investigation (do you know that adultery is a crime in NY?). Recent trend to use criminal prosecution as political tool isn't encouraging, though.
A lot of employers may be eager to use data they are not entitled to. Requests to review social network accounts, including personal messages, during hiring do exist. Taking day off for an interview with competitor? Going to political event after work? These can easily lead to consequences...

If your profiles and posts are public, companies aren't doing anything wrong. Anyone is entitled to view public information.  I don't know of any company that has a right to contact a company to gain access to private profiles or posts, and social media companies wouldn't give access to such.  As it is, even law enforcement needs to provide a warrant to access someone's private info if it's in regard to criminal research.

Was the trend a while back:
https://www.beankinney.com/a-warning-for-employers-requiring-social-media-login-information/
Looks like no longer the trend, but shows that people in charge don't feel privacy concerns as a factor.

[Scott5114]

Does that mean you don't watch any of the television streaming service (either paid or free) at all either? There's plenty to derive from your viewing habits, time of viewing, and location based upon IP address.

Also, using a credit card or debit card? Location, time of day, where you shopped at.

So, because some things have tracking (sometimes impossible to provide the service without, like credit cards), we shouldn't keep the issue from getting worse?  There's also the matter of degree.  I can turn my phone off (mine even lets me remove the battery).  I can pay with a cash, or split charges between different cards.  Not driving my car is a bigger ask.

As I mentioned, I take steps to limit my exposure to this stuff.  I'm honestly surprised that so few people do and that even suggesting that privacy is a thing to value seems to be such an unpopular opinion.

<shrug>

My privacy expectations aren't all that high. I pretty much assume anytime I use my phone or drive my car something is tracking me. Again, I don't really know what harm that actually does to me.

Maybe you'd feel differently if you were a member of a social group whose very existence has become politicized.  Or of the government becomes paranoid again.

It also depends a lot on where you live. I imagine Nevada wouldn't give two fucks about anything I was up to if they got that kind of data on me, but if, say, Texas got it I would be worried. With Texas, there's also the "sue people doing things you don't like for $10,000" laws, and I would imagine a cell provider or car service doing business in Texas could be compelled to respond to a subpoena from a private attorney for that data.

A lot of employers may be eager to use data they are not entitled to. Requests to review social network accounts, including personal messages, during hiring do exist. Taking day off for an interview with competitor? Going to political event after work? These can easily lead to consequences...

Or perhaps your car data puts you in the parking garage of the office of a labor union you're talking to...or a government office you're whistleblowing at...

It should also be noted that whether or not someone is legally entitled to that data, they may well be able to just purchase it.

I don't know of any company that has a right to contact a company to gain access to private profiles or posts, and social media companies wouldn't give access to such.

Mark Zuckerberg leveraged Facebook user data to fight rivals and help friends, leaked documents show
April 16, 2019, 1:30 AM PDT / Updated April 18, 2019, 4:51 PM PDT
By Olivia Solon and Cyrus Farivar

Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg oversaw plans to consolidate the social network's power and control competitors by treating its users' data as a bargaining chip, while publicly proclaiming to be protecting that data, according to about 4,000 pages of leaked company documents largely spanning 2011 to 2015 and obtained by NBC News.

The documents, which include emails, webchats, presentations, spreadsheets and meeting summaries, show how Zuckerberg, along with his board and management team, found ways to tap Facebook's trove of user data — including information about friends, relationships and photos — as leverage over companies it partnered with.

In some cases, Facebook would reward favored companies by giving them access to the data of its users. In other cases, it would deny user-data access to rival companies or apps.

For example, Facebook gave Amazon extended access to user data because it was spending money on Facebook advertising and partnering with the social network on the launch of its Fire smartphone. In another case, Facebook discussed cutting off access to user data for a messaging app that had grown too popular and was viewed as a competitor, according to the documents.

[...]

Facebook ultimately decided not to sell the data directly but rather to dole it out to app developers who were considered personal "friends" of Zuckerberg or who spent money on Facebook and shared their own valuable data, the documents show.

So say you work at a grocery store with an app. Upper management decides they want access to their employees' profiles, so they offer Facebook ad money and data from their app in exchange for their employees' data from Facebook. Facebook would absolutely entertain that deal.