Thread split. Replies in this (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23463.50;topicseen) thread should probably be moved here by a mod or admin.
Pennsylvania: None. I've changed my mind on this; the Northeast and Midwest do not touch, and Pittsburgh and Erie are in between in an "Appalachian" category.
Ohio: All
Michigan: All
Indiana: All
West Virginia: None (goes in the "Appalachian" category along with western and central Pennsylvania)
Kentucky: I-71 corridor, but not the rest of the state, which is in the South.
Illinois: All. An exception could be made for south of I-64, but I'm still including it.
Michigan: All
Wisconsin: All
Minnesota: All
Iowa: All
Missouri: North of I-70, plus all of the Kansas City and St. Louis metro areas.
North Dakota: None. Great Plains.
South Dakota: None. Great Plains.
Nebraska: None. Great Plains. (Yes, the Omaha area is split.)
Kansas: Kansas City metro area only. The rest is the Great Plains.
Side note: In a trivia game at a restaurant I went to, the host asked a question beginning with "Which Midwestern state contains...". The answer was Idaho. While he normally makes his own questions, this question came from an app that asked "which of these", which obviously only works in multiple choice format. Our team regularly went for over a year; he didn't make too many blunders like that other than mispronunciations of names.
For me, the Midwest is the following states:
IL, IN, IA, KS, MI, MN, MO, NE, ND, OH, SD, WI
Bounded by a line running roughly:
- From Youngstown to Cincinnati
- Then following the Ohio River to Evansville
- Then running to St. Louis
- Then northwest to Des Moines
- Then north to St Cloud, MN
- Then east to Green Bay
- Then southeast to north of Grand Rapids
- Then east-northeast to Lake Huron in the vicinity of Saginaw/Midland
- Finally, following the western shore of Lake Huron, St Clair River, Detroit River, and southern shore of Lake Erie to the OH/PA border.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp0rNhN.jpg)
Everything between the Rockies/Appalachians and north of the Mason Dixson line. An alternate definition which I think more people would go by is the states of original Big Ten Schools.
Comments:
Kentucky - Lexington and the Bluegrass bill the area as "where midwestern sensibility meet southern charm" and that is correct, in a cultural context. More broadly, Kentucky, a border state, and more particularly Louisville, after the war chose a public image that is far more "southern" than it really is. Western KY, which is least populated part of the state, is the most "southern". In Midwestern terms, the counties that touch or nearly touch the Ohio are clearly "midwestern". Roughly the 3rd and 4th congressional districts.
Ohio - 99 people out of 100 when asked to name "the midwestern states" will say "Ohio", generally first or second. And that is the easy answer. However the (grossly over broad, IMHO) legal definition of "Appalachia" includes SE Ohio, even to the edge of the Cincy and C-bus suburbs. While not exactly the same, the SE corner of Ohio is more like WV and KY, than it is like the rest of Ohio on a cultural basis.
Pennsylvania - Again, we have the really bad ARC definition. But Appalachia must be subdivided as well. Pittsburgh, and the rural areas across parts of five states that it influences are vastly different from the rest of Appalachia. The ARC sub-divides the region in the 5 parts, but to me it works out better in 3, northern (steel economy), central (coal economy) and southern (substiance agriculture and some textiles). But I have heard both Pittsburgh and Buffalo called "midwestern" in some contexts. Nah.
Illinois - Again, the average joe will automatically say "Illinois" when talking about the midwest, but the "Little Egypt" region is quite border state ish if not outright southern in many respects. SIU's main campus is closer to the campus of the University of Mississippi than it is to Chicago.
WV - I don't know anyone who would make WV a "midwestern" state. The tragedy of WV, as a political entitiy, is that the parts are much more like the other states they border than they are like one another. The only connection WV has to the midwest is fierce loyalty to the Reds in the Ohio valley region, and beyond to some degree. But likewise many "southern" and "Ozark" places follow the Cardinals similarly.
My mother is from KY and I have relatives in the Lexington/Winchester area. They all uniformly place KY in the South.
MN, WI, IA, MI, ND, SD, NE, KS, MO north of US 50, IN, IL
I've never considered the Plains to be a region, rather just a subregion within the Midwest like the Great Lakes (excluding PA and NY) and Corn Belt.
OH is weird because it's in the transition zone between east and west.
I consider the true Midwest to be bounded roughly by I-79 on the east, I-70 on the south, I-29 on the west and Canada on the north. Immediately outside of these areas are what I consider to be "transition zones" to other regions.
Wisconsin and Michigan plus any state that borders Wisconsin and Michigan.
538's take on the subject...
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-states-are-in-the-midwest/
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 17, 2018, 11:28:07 AM
I've never considered the Plains to be a region, rather just a subregion within the Midwest.
Same here. In fact, that's my single beef with the definition outlined in the OP. The Dakotas are very definitely part of the Midwest.
QuoteOH is weird
Agreed. :-P
I define the midwest as N. Dakota, S Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, and Minnesota.
I define the Great Lakes region as Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana and Ohio.
OH, IN, IL, MI, WI, MN, IA, MO, KS, NE, ND, SD.
Another good question (perhaps for another thread) is where does Oklahoma fit? To me, it's sort of midwestern, sort of southern, and even a little southwestern in the Panhandle.
Everything northwest of the Ohio River and everything northeast of the Missouri River.
I decided to define the Midwest using this map (http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/united_states_indian_tribes.htm), based on Native American tribes. All tribes in the pink region, except for the Shawnee, is what I consider to be the Midwest.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 17, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
Bounded by a line running roughly:
- From Youngstown to Cincinnati
- Then following the Ohio River to Evansville
- Then running to St. Louis
- Then northwest to Des Moines
- Then north to St Cloud, MN
- Then east to Green Bay
- Then southeast to north of Grand Rapids
- Then east-northeast to Lake Huron in the vicinity of Saginaw/Midland
- Finally, following the western shore of Lake Huron, St Clair River, Detroit River, and southern shore of Lake Erie to the OH/PA border.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp0rNhN.jpg)
I'm curious why you don't consider Northern Michigan as part of the Midwest.
Starting at Lake Erie and the OH/PA border. Follows the OH border/Ohio River west to the Mississippi. Briefly follows the Mississippi, then the southern borders of MO and KS. Turns north at the western border of KS and goes straight up to the Canadian border, then follows the Canadian border back to the starting point.
It depends on how many parts you want to chop the country into.
If you only want 4 parts (plus AK and HI, sorry they don't fit neatly) then the Midwest is from Ohio to Kansas to North Dakota and back.
If you want more sections (e.g. divide the Northeast into more than one, New England, Mid Atlantic, etc) then you can sub-divide the Midwest into Great Lakes, Northern Plains, etc.
Sure, OH and ND are different. But ME and PA are different too, and they're both in the Northeast. AK and FL are different, and they're both in the South. WA and NM are different, and they're both in the West. That's how it goes when you only get NE, S, MW and W.
Quote from: GaryV on August 17, 2018, 08:24:18 PM
AK and FL are different, and they're both in the South.
Wait, what?
Northern Kentucky is not in any way, shape, or form in the Deep South.
Quote from: bandit957 on August 17, 2018, 09:47:14 PM
Northern Kentucky is not in any way, shape, or form in the Deep South.
I'd agree with that but it isn't quite Mid-West either. Kind of has that eastern Ohio/West Virginia vibe to it at times.
Kansas, Nebraska, the Dakotas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio roughly west of I-71. Possibly Oklahoma and the lower part of Michigan.
Definitely not any part of Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, West Virginia or Pennsylvania.
Draw a line west from the Ohio River that cuts between Dayton and Cincinnati to St Louis, and then just south of Kansas City to the 100th meridian. Straight up the 100th meridian to the Canadian border. Follow the Canadian border through the Great Lakes to Ellicott's Line. Then south along Ellicott's Line to the Ohio River and the point of beginning. Parts of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, and North Dakota. All of Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Iowa.
This is how the folks of Wikipedia define the Midwest as well as the Upper Midwest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Midwest
Quote from: rarnold on August 16, 2018, 10:40:26 PM
I didn't know Kansas, Iowa, the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Missouri were thrown out of the midwest? When did that happen, how was that decided, and did SSR_317 and vdeane make the decision?
How did they get included? I don't see how the Great Plains could possibly have anything in common with anything east of the Mississippi. Isn't the Mississippi the greatest geographic divider in the entire country?
In any case, I don't see why we need to limit ourselves to four regions. I'd use the following: Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, The South, Midwest, Apalachia, Great Plains, Texas, Mountain West, Desert Southwest, California, and Pacific Northwest (and, of course, Alaska and Hawaii).
Quote from: vdeane on August 18, 2018, 11:26:28 PM
How did they get included? I don't see how the Great Plains could possibly have anything in common with anything east of the Mississippi. Isn't the Mississippi the greatest geographic divider in the entire country?
The Census Bureau and federal documents usually use the 4 regions of the Northeast, Midwest, South, and West, and one of the biggest determining factors seems to be what kind of land allocation each state has. The states in the Midwest usually have a similar system of square townships. The states in the West have a lot of federal land.
Quote from: vdeane on August 18, 2018, 11:26:28 PM
Quote from: rarnold on August 16, 2018, 10:40:26 PM
I didn't know Kansas, Iowa, the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Missouri were thrown out of the midwest? When did that happen, how was that decided, and did SSR_317 and vdeane make the decision?
How did they get included? I don't see how the Great Plains could possibly have anything in common with anything east of the Mississippi. Isn't the Mississippi the greatest geographic divider in the entire country?
The problem is deciding when things are too dissimilar between two places to consider them part of the same region.
As a Minnesotan, I feel absolutely nothing in common with anything related to Ohio, which are both states people generally uniformly consider Midwest. Western Minnesota, part of a state everybody includes wholly in the Midwest, has everything in common with the eastern halves of NE, ND, and SD, which are states some people believe should not be considered part of the Midwest in any capacity.
Unfortunately it's one of those things that probably comes down to how much someone has travelled or lived in the region, and obviously it's apparent those of us from the Midwest also have our own definitions.
Quote from: SCtoKC on August 17, 2018, 04:46:59 PM
OH, IN, IL, MI, WI, MN, IA, MO, KS, NE, ND, SD.
Another good question (perhaps for another thread) is where does Oklahoma fit? To me, it's sort of midwestern, sort of southern, and even a little southwestern in the Panhandle.
The parts of Oklahoma I have been and have reminded me of a combination of Texas, Arkansas and Kansas.
Quote from: adwerkema on August 17, 2018, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 17, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
Bounded by a line running roughly:
- From Youngstown to Cincinnati
- Then following the Ohio River to Evansville
- Then running to St. Louis
- Then northwest to Des Moines
- Then north to St Cloud, MN
- Then east to Green Bay
- Then southeast to north of Grand Rapids
- Then east-northeast to Lake Huron in the vicinity of Saginaw/Midland
- Finally, following the western shore of Lake Huron, St Clair River, Detroit River, and southern shore of Lake Erie to the OH/PA border.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp0rNhN.jpg)
I'm curious why you don't consider Northern Michigan as part of the Midwest.
Same here.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 02:10:25 AM
Quote from: adwerkema on August 17, 2018, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 17, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
Bounded by a line running roughly:
- From Youngstown to Cincinnati
- Then following the Ohio River to Evansville
- Then running to St. Louis
- Then northwest to Des Moines
- Then north to St Cloud, MN
- Then east to Green Bay
- Then southeast to north of Grand Rapids
- Then east-northeast to Lake Huron in the vicinity of Saginaw/Midland
- Finally, following the western shore of Lake Huron, St Clair River, Detroit River, and southern shore of Lake Erie to the OH/PA border.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp0rNhN.jpg)
I'm curious why you don't consider Northern Michigan as part of the Midwest.
Same here.
Because of the mines in the UP and Iron Ranges of Minnesota maybe?....doesn't explain Wisconsin though.
Oklahoma is a "border state". The southeastern portions are quite southern in character, but northern Oklahoma (except for the NE corner of the state, the part in the Ozarks) is quite midwestern. Tulsa has a lot more in common with Kansas City than it does with Atlanta or Memphis.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 19, 2018, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 02:10:25 AM
Quote from: adwerkema on August 17, 2018, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 17, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
Bounded by a line running roughly:
- From Youngstown to Cincinnati
- Then following the Ohio River to Evansville
- Then running to St. Louis
- Then northwest to Des Moines
- Then north to St Cloud, MN
- Then east to Green Bay
- Then southeast to north of Grand Rapids
- Then east-northeast to Lake Huron in the vicinity of Saginaw/Midland
- Finally, following the western shore of Lake Huron, St Clair River, Detroit River, and southern shore of Lake Erie to the OH/PA border.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp0rNhN.jpg)
I'm curious why you don't consider Northern Michigan as part of the Midwest.
Same here.
Because of the mines in the UP and Iron Ranges of Minnesota maybe?....doesn't explain Wisconsin though.
What does that have to do with what part of the country it's in? All of Michigan is in the Midwest.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 09:48:59 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 19, 2018, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 02:10:25 AM
Quote from: adwerkema on August 17, 2018, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 17, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
Bounded by a line running roughly:
- From Youngstown to Cincinnati
- Then following the Ohio River to Evansville
- Then running to St. Louis
- Then northwest to Des Moines
- Then north to St Cloud, MN
- Then east to Green Bay
- Then southeast to north of Grand Rapids
- Then east-northeast to Lake Huron in the vicinity of Saginaw/Midland
- Finally, following the western shore of Lake Huron, St Clair River, Detroit River, and southern shore of Lake Erie to the OH/PA border.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp0rNhN.jpg)
I'm curious why you don't consider Northern Michigan as part of the Midwest.
Same here.
Because of the mines in the UP and Iron Ranges of Minnesota maybe?....doesn't explain Wisconsin though.
What does that have to do with what part of the country it's in? All of Michigan is in the Midwest.
Not saying I disagree with that but maybe that poster was thinking there was enough of a cultural difference for that to matter to the poster who defined it that way? I'm sure you being from Michigan know this just as well as I do, there is a massive difference culturally between the Lower and Upper Peninsulas of Michigan. For what its worth there seemed to be a similar culture shift between my family members in the Twin Cities Areas versus say Duluth.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 19, 2018, 10:32:03 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 09:48:59 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 19, 2018, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 02:10:25 AM
Quote from: adwerkema on August 17, 2018, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 17, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
Bounded by a line running roughly:
- From Youngstown to Cincinnati
- Then following the Ohio River to Evansville
- Then running to St. Louis
- Then northwest to Des Moines
- Then north to St Cloud, MN
- Then east to Green Bay
- Then southeast to north of Grand Rapids
- Then east-northeast to Lake Huron in the vicinity of Saginaw/Midland
- Finally, following the western shore of Lake Huron, St Clair River, Detroit River, and southern shore of Lake Erie to the OH/PA border.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp0rNhN.jpg)
I'm curious why you don't consider Northern Michigan as part of the Midwest.
Same here.
Because of the mines in the UP and Iron Ranges of Minnesota maybe?....doesn't explain Wisconsin though.
What does that have to do with what part of the country it's in? All of Michigan is in the Midwest.
Not saying I disagree with that but maybe that poster was thinking there was enough of a cultural difference for that to matter to the poster who defined it that way? I'm sure you being from Michigan know this just as well as I do, there is a massive difference culturally between the Lower and Upper Peninsulas of Michigan. For what its worth there seemed to be a similar culture shift between my family members in the Twin Cities Areas versus say Duluth.
A lot of the northern Lower Peninsula resembles the Upper Peninsula too. But the U.P. has things in common with Wisconsin which is part of the Midwest too. I just don't understand how anyone could exclude any of Michigan in the Midwest. But yeah there is a difference, like the U.P. has a population density of 19 people per square mile while the L.P. has a population density of 239 people per square mile. The whole Northeast corner of the L.P. is very sparsely populated resembling the U.P. and the part up by Mackinaw City you mine as well be in the U.P. already.
I agree that the Midwest comprises IL, IN, IA, MI, MN, MO and WI, as well as parts of OH (I feel not all of Ohio is part of Midwest, and definitely not any part East of I-77). KS, NE, ND and SD comprise what I call the "Great boredom".
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on August 19, 2018, 02:54:45 PM
I agree that the Midwest comprises IL, IN, IA, MI, MN, MO and WI, as well as parts of OH (I feel not all of Ohio is part of Midwest, and definitely not any part East of I-77). KS, NE, ND and SD comprise what I call the "Great boredom".
Ohio SE of Columbus has more of the feel of Kentucky and West Virginia than it does anything in the Midwest so I agree on that point. Anything north of Columbus though just resembles areas around the Great Lakes mostly. Ohio doesn't have the lakes that Michigan has but Michigan has a lot of farms around the Saginaw area and in the Thumb which Ohio seems to have as well.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 19, 2018, 10:32:03 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 09:48:59 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 19, 2018, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 02:10:25 AM
Quote from: adwerkema on August 17, 2018, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 17, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
Bounded by a line running roughly:
- From Youngstown to Cincinnati
- Then following the Ohio River to Evansville
- Then running to St. Louis
- Then northwest to Des Moines
- Then north to St Cloud, MN
- Then east to Green Bay
- Then southeast to north of Grand Rapids
- Then east-northeast to Lake Huron in the vicinity of Saginaw/Midland
- Finally, following the western shore of Lake Huron, St Clair River, Detroit River, and southern shore of Lake Erie to the OH/PA border.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp0rNhN.jpg)
I'm curious why you don't consider Northern Michigan as part of the Midwest.
Same here.
Because of the mines in the UP and Iron Ranges of Minnesota maybe?....doesn't explain Wisconsin though.
What does that have to do with what part of the country it's in? All of Michigan is in the Midwest.
Not saying I disagree with that but maybe that poster was thinking there was enough of a cultural difference for that to matter to the poster who defined it that way? I'm sure you being from Michigan know this just as well as I do, there is a massive difference culturally between the Lower and Upper Peninsulas of Michigan. For what its worth there seemed to be a similar culture shift between my family members in the Twin Cities Areas versus say Duluth.
Pretty much. The difference between lifestyles being defined by farms/the Rust Belt and being defined by the woods and Great Lakes.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 09:48:59 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 19, 2018, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 02:10:25 AM
Quote from: adwerkema on August 17, 2018, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 17, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
Bounded by a line running roughly:
- From Youngstown to Cincinnati
- Then following the Ohio River to Evansville
- Then running to St. Louis
- Then northwest to Des Moines
- Then north to St Cloud, MN
- Then east to Green Bay
- Then southeast to north of Grand Rapids
- Then east-northeast to Lake Huron in the vicinity of Saginaw/Midland
- Finally, following the western shore of Lake Huron, St Clair River, Detroit River, and southern shore of Lake Erie to the OH/PA border.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp0rNhN.jpg)
I'm curious why you don't consider Northern Michigan as part of the Midwest.
Same here.
Because of the mines in the UP and Iron Ranges of Minnesota maybe?....doesn't explain Wisconsin though.
What does that have to do with what part of the country it's in? All of Michigan is in the Midwest.
I call it the Upper Midwest, North Woods, or Northern Great Lakes. It's still part of the Midwest
I recall learning that if you ask folks from the coasts to draw what they think the "Midwest" is, they tend to be quite literal and circle the middle of the country centered in like Kansas to include decidedly un-Midwestern places like Colorado and Oklahoma.
This would be lay people from the coasts; not folks like us with a keen interest in geography.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 20, 2018, 11:22:54 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 19, 2018, 10:32:03 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 09:48:59 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 19, 2018, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 19, 2018, 02:10:25 AM
Quote from: adwerkema on August 17, 2018, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 17, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
Bounded by a line running roughly:
- From Youngstown to Cincinnati
- Then following the Ohio River to Evansville
- Then running to St. Louis
- Then northwest to Des Moines
- Then north to St Cloud, MN
- Then east to Green Bay
- Then southeast to north of Grand Rapids
- Then east-northeast to Lake Huron in the vicinity of Saginaw/Midland
- Finally, following the western shore of Lake Huron, St Clair River, Detroit River, and southern shore of Lake Erie to the OH/PA border.
(https://i.imgur.com/Pp0rNhN.jpg)
I'm curious why you don't consider Northern Michigan as part of the Midwest.
Same here.
Because of the mines in the UP and Iron Ranges of Minnesota maybe?....doesn't explain Wisconsin though.
What does that have to do with what part of the country it's in? All of Michigan is in the Midwest.
Not saying I disagree with that but maybe that poster was thinking there was enough of a cultural difference for that to matter to the poster who defined it that way? I'm sure you being from Michigan know this just as well as I do, there is a massive difference culturally between the Lower and Upper Peninsulas of Michigan. For what its worth there seemed to be a similar culture shift between my family members in the Twin Cities Areas versus say Duluth.
Pretty much. The difference between lifestyles being defined by farms/the Rust Belt and being defined by the woods and Great Lakes.
But the lifestyle differences between the cities and farms in the area you define are much greater than differences between the area you define and the area you exclude. Lifestyle differences do not define geography.
The Midwest = the Great Lakes + the Great Plains + the North Woods
The names escape me, but I've read/browsed a couple of books that divide America into 7 or 8 regions.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 20, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
I recall learning that if you ask folks from the coasts to draw what they think the "Midwest" is, they tend to be quite literal and circle the middle of the country centered in like Kansas to include decidedly un-Midwestern places like Colorado and Oklahoma.
Parts of Oklahoma are very midwestern, namely the northern part of the state. Tulsa is more like Kansas City than it is to Dallas or Little Rock.
Quote from: jon daly on August 20, 2018, 08:22:30 PM
The names escape me, but I've read/browsed a couple of books that divide America into 7 or 8 regions.
Several on that subject. The most cited is called "The Nine Nations of North Ameirca", which divides by economics mostly, which had:
- New England (New England and Atlantic Canada)
- The Foundry (more or less the rust belt, Great Lakes states, including western NY and PA and northern WV, also the populated part of Ontario)
- Dixie (most of WV, KY, FL, all of NC, SC, GA, AL, TN, MS, AR, LA, parts of TX, OK)
- Breadbasket (Great Plains, Prairie provences)
- The Islands (Miami and the Carribbean)
- Mex-America (Mexico and hispanic majority border areas)
- Ecotopia (Pacific Northwest)
- Empty Quarter (US mountain time zone, Alaska, unpopulated part of Canada)
- Quebec
And four "exceptions", Inside The Beltway, Manhattan, Hawaii, and Northern Alaska (which he never actually explains what Northern Alaska is in the book.
Another later book is called "American Nations" which actually has a map by counties and goes more by culture. It had:
- Yankee-dom (New England, Atlantic Canada, not NYC NY, northern PA and OH, then MI, WI and MN, which are places settled by people from NE, NY, Germany and Scandanavia)
- New Netherland (NYC region)
- Tidewater (eastern halves of NC, VA, and MD, plus DE, which is a very distinct culture from either the rest of the south or Appalachia)
- Deep South (most of SC, GA, AL, MS, east TX, east AR, most of FL (this one assigns Miami to the Caribbean as well)
- Greater Appalachia (not only actual Apalachia, but the places settled by Scots-Irish people from Appalachia and culturally similar (south east PA, WV, KY, TN, western halves of VA and NC, mountain parts of GA, AL, SC, and MS, southern parts of OH, IN, IL, MO, most of AR and OK, most of TX)
- The Midlands (thin seam of land between "Yankee-dom" and "Greater Appalachia" running from Philadelphia to the edge of the Rockies, and also including most of Ontario. Mostly settled by Germans and English.
-El Norte (Hispanic majority border region)
- Left Coast (self explanatory)
- New France (Quebec and Cajun part of LA)
- Far West (more or less the same as the "Empty Quarter" above)
- First Nation ("indian" majority parts of Canada)
Personally, I like the culture based work. The Almanac of American Politics, takes a similar cultural analysis approach and is very useful for that reason, IMHO.
Thanks, S.P.. I'm familiar with the former. I don't think that I checked out the latter, but it sounds interesting.
Quote from: SP Cook on August 21, 2018, 10:41:21 AM
Another later book is called "American Nations" which actually has a map by counties and goes more by culture. It had:
- Yankee-dom (New England, Atlantic Canada, not NYC NY, northern PA and OH, then MI, WI and MN, which are places settled by people from NE, NY, Germany and Scandanavia)
- New Netherland (NYC region)
- Tidewater (eastern halves of NC, VA, and MD, plus DE, which is a very distinct culture from either the rest of the south or Appalachia)
- Deep South (most of SC, GA, AL, MS, east TX, east AR, most of FL (this one assigns Miami to the Caribbean as well)
- Greater Appalachia (not only actual Apalachia, but the places settled by Scots-Irish people from Appalachia and culturally similar (south east PA, WV, KY, TN, western halves of VA and NC, mountain parts of GA, AL, SC, and MS, southern parts of OH, IN, IL, MO, most of AR and OK, most of TX)
- The Midlands (thin seam of land between "Yankee-dom" and "Greater Appalachia" running from Philadelphia to the edge of the Rockies, and also including most of Ontario. Mostly settled by Germans and English.
-El Norte (Hispanic majority border region)
- Left Coast (self explanatory)
- New France (Quebec and Cajun part of LA)
- Far West (more or less the same as the "Empty Quarter" above)
- First Nation ("indian" majority parts of Canada)
Personally, I like the culture based work. The Almanac of American Politics, takes a similar cultural analysis approach and is very useful for that reason, IMHO.
I agree, regarding the culture-based work. It does show how and why the different parts of the US and Canada are different from each other (and which ones are more similar). Based on that, I usually define the Midwest as the parts of the Midlands and Yankeedom west of Ellicott's Line (OH/PA border).
Two step-process.
Step 1: Consider an area bounded by 46˚N, 76˚W, 38˚N, the Mississippi/Missouri Rivers, and 96˚W
Step 2: Exclude all areas within these bounds where the predominate rural environment is forest.
The result looks roughly like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/Pw8EUp5.png)
The general logic here is there is that there is a line roughly following US 81 where west of this line, precipitation totals drop off and the climate becomes drier. West of this line, there are no forests of significance until you get to the Rocky Mountains (except in the Black Hills), the predominate environment is prairie. East of this line, the land is mostly forested but there is one very glaring exception - a region jutting easterly along the southern Great Lakes where, in spite of having a wetter climate, the natural environment is still prairie rather than forest. This exception region is the "midwest" - an area that is eastern in its climate and population density, but that takes on a western trait in being relatively flat and treeless. Hence why it is the "midwest" - it's not the east, but it's not west either. It's in the middle, a quasi-west.
I would consider it to be Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Iowa, the northern half of Missouri, the eastern half of the Dakotas, and maybe the far eastern parts of Nebraska and Kansas (around the Kansas City/Omaha areas). Anything west of that is the Great Plains, and I would consider southern Missouri and the area around the Ohio River to be the transition zone between the midwest and the south.
I would say that Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin are exclusively Midwestern with most of Ohio with the possible exception of the very SE part of the state. After that it gets a little tricky. I know many will disagree with me but I would consider the part of Kentucky north of I-64 to be part of it. Same goes for Missouri north of I-70. Areas just to the south are the transition zone and then your in the south about 50-60 miles north of the state line. I would consider the far eastern parts of the Dakotas Nebraska and Kansas part of it but not when you get farther west into very sparkly populated areas. Some will consider eastern Colorado the part east of the Rockies the Midwest. I would say no to that nothing in common with states farther east. Pennsylvania is defininlty not Midwestern it's Appalachia although some of their industry may have a few things in common with Ohio and Michigan. Same goes for WV that is an odd state because I just don't know where to put it. It's too far north to be the south and it really has nothing in common with the NE with the exception of western Pennsylvania.
I like a definition that would keep whole parts of states. In that vein, OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, MN, IA, and MO are the midwest to me. Yes some parts of OH and MO have a southern feel to them, but since a majority is midwestern, it should be associated with the midwest.
ND, SD, NE, KS are Plains states. KY and WV are Southern states. PA is wholly a Mid-Atlantic state.
Quote from: mrsman on August 28, 2018, 07:51:35 PM
I like a definition that would keep whole parts of states. In that vein, OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, MN, IA, and MO are the midwest to me. Yes some parts of OH and MO have a southern feel to them, but since a majority is midwestern, it should be associated with the midwest.
ND, SD, NE, KS are Plains states. KY and WV are Southern states. PA is wholly a Mid-Atlantic state.
I guess we can keep the southern parts of MO, IL, IN, and OH in the Midwest. I'm guessing they have more in common with the northern/central parts of those states than they do with their neighbors to the south.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 28, 2018, 08:00:49 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 28, 2018, 07:51:35 PM
I like a definition that would keep whole parts of states. In that vein, OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, MN, IA, and MO are the midwest to me. Yes some parts of OH and MO have a southern feel to them, but since a majority is midwestern, it should be associated with the midwest.
ND, SD, NE, KS are Plains states. KY and WV are Southern states. PA is wholly a Mid-Atlantic state.
I guess we can keep the southern parts of MO, IL, IN, and OH in the Midwest. I'm guessing they have more in common with the northern/central parts of those states than they do with their neighbors to the south.
Southern Missouri is the Ozarks which is more in common with Arkansas than any of the Midwest states. The Bootheel of Missouri has more in common with Tennessee and Arkansas.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 28, 2018, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 28, 2018, 08:00:49 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 28, 2018, 07:51:35 PM
I like a definition that would keep whole parts of states. In that vein, OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, MN, IA, and MO are the midwest to me. Yes some parts of OH and MO have a southern feel to them, but since a majority is midwestern, it should be associated with the midwest.
ND, SD, NE, KS are Plains states. KY and WV are Southern states. PA is wholly a Mid-Atlantic state.
I guess we can keep the southern parts of MO, IL, IN, and OH in the Midwest. I'm guessing they have more in common with the northern/central parts of those states than they do with their neighbors to the south.
Southern Missouri is the Ozarks which is more in common with Arkansas than any of the Midwest states. The Bootheel of Missouri has more in common with Tennessee and Arkansas.
Makes sense. But the rest of the state is still Midwest though?
Southern and southeastern Ohio have a lot more in common with Kentucky and West Virginia than they do the northern and northwestern parts of their own state -- geographically, economically, socially, and in just about every other way.
Theory: US50 is the border between the Midwest and the South.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 28, 2018, 08:00:49 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 28, 2018, 07:51:35 PM
I like a definition that would keep whole parts of states. In that vein, OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, MN, IA, and MO are the midwest to me. Yes some parts of OH and MO have a southern feel to them, but since a majority is midwestern, it should be associated with the midwest.
ND, SD, NE, KS are Plains states. KY and WV are Southern states. PA is wholly a Mid-Atlantic state.
I guess we can keep the southern parts of MO, IL, IN, and OH in the Midwest. I'm guessing they have more in common with the northern/central parts of those states than they do with their neighbors to the south.
Southern Indiana is much more like Kentucky than it is like Northern Indiana.
Are we using state borders to define the Midwest? Because I'm wondering if we can count a whole state as midwestern even if some parts of it are not.
To me, the Midwest is more geographical than anything else. If it's flat to rolling farmland between the Appalachians, the Ozarks and the Rockies, to me it's pretty much the Midwest.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 30, 2018, 10:46:31 PM
Are we using state borders to define the Midwest? Because I'm wondering if we can count a whole state as midwestern even if some parts of it are not.
The definition can be whatever you want it to be. This entire thread is opinion.
I'm reading Larry McMurtry's ROADS right now and I think that he said that the Midwest starts in Columbus, O, but I can't find the cite.
I found the cite. On page 80 McMurtry writes in 2000, "I spent the day in Ohio, Indiana, Illimois, Missourri answering, at least to my own satisfaction, where the midwest begins. Its eastern edge would seem to me to be Columbus, Ohio, after which the great cornfields appear and continue all the way to St. Louis. Western Ohio still has the look of Appalachia, with narrow frame houses on steep hillsides, but after Columbus there are no hillsides. just the flat midwestern plain."
Earlier on page 16 he has the northeastern megalopolis annex Cleveland. "To see the Culture of Congestion at its most intense, just go east of Cleveland, north of Richmond, Virginia, south of Maine."
Larry McMurtry is a plainsman from Archer, Texas. From my New England POV, my gut tells me that the midwest starts in Pittsburgh, but that's not widely accepted and I'll admit that I could be wrong. I just think that it is too similar to Cleveland for them not to be part of the same region and I think McMurtry's wrong focusing on cornfields. There's also the Great Lakes and the Ohio and I think those define the Midwestern boundaries. (Hence, I sometimes half-kiddingly mentally place Louisville within its orbit.)
I'll agree that the upper Ohio Valley is part of Appalachia, but I consider that too be a subregion that meanders through other regions; including the Midwest and the South.
From the northeast, as one travels from east to west, the midwest begins at the point at which sales of yellow mustard outweigh sales of brown mustard.
I once spent a few days in Cleveland and the highlight of my trip was Stadium Mustard. By your reckoning, I didn't leave the northeast when I went to northeast Ohio.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 28, 2018, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 28, 2018, 08:00:49 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 28, 2018, 07:51:35 PM
I like a definition that would keep whole parts of states. In that vein, OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, MN, IA, and MO are the midwest to me. Yes some parts of OH and MO have a southern feel to them, but since a majority is midwestern, it should be associated with the midwest.
ND, SD, NE, KS are Plains states. KY and WV are Southern states. PA is wholly a Mid-Atlantic state.
I guess we can keep the southern parts of MO, IL, IN, and OH in the Midwest. I'm guessing they have more in common with the northern/central parts of those states than they do with their neighbors to the south.
Southern Missouri is the Ozarks which is more in common with Arkansas than any of the Midwest states. The Bootheel of Missouri has more in common with Tennessee and Arkansas.
The Ozarks truly are their own region. Much more an exclave of Appalachia with a weird smattering of New England revivalism than like any of their regional neighbors.
Quote from: qguy on September 02, 2018, 01:51:15 PM
From the northeast, as one travels from east to west, the midwest begins at the point at which sales of yellow mustard outweigh sales of brown mustard.
I read a book one time, cannot remember the name, and it used barns as a dividing line. Traditionally New Englanders painted barns, generally red because red paint was the least expensive 200 years ago. Virginians used unpainted rough lumber, in later times treated with creosote and thus black, later black paint. As the two groups moved west, they mostly followed their father's traditions.
It does form a rough dividing line between the upper south and the lower midwest.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 04, 2018, 02:16:38 PM
Quote from: qguy on September 02, 2018, 01:51:15 PM
From the northeast, as one travels from east to west, the midwest begins at the point at which sales of yellow mustard outweigh sales of brown mustard.
I read a book one time, cannot remember the name, and it used barns as a dividing line. Traditionally New Englanders painted barns, generally red because red paint was the least expensive 200 years ago. Virginians used unpainted rough lumber, in later times treated with creosote and thus black, later black paint. As the two groups moved west, they mostly followed their father's traditions.
It does form a rough dividing line between the upper south and the lower midwest.
My observation of barns in Pennsylvania is that most are painted white, with a minority painted red, and a relatively tiny percentage black. It would be interesting to see actual statistics as well as distribution.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 28, 2018, 10:17:57 PM
Theory: US50 is the border between the Midwest and the South.
I've always maintained that it's I-70, and I would suggest that the space in between the two is a touch more Southern than Midwestern, but that's really splitting hairs and I think either works.
I had a college professor who was from MO and thought I-70 was the diving line between "Southern Missouri" and "Midwestern Missouri." It appears to be the case at least with accents.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 05, 2018, 02:07:58 PM
I had a college professor who was from MO and thought I-70 was the diving line between "Southern Missouri" and "Midwestern Missouri." It appears to be the case at least with accents.
I'd venture that the Missouri River itself is more a definitive divisor between Southern and Midwest influences in MO. The metro area of St. Louis is sort of an amalgam of both (most of my mother's side of the family still live in that area); if you get to the northern exurbs (St. Peters, O'Fallon) they have characteristics similar to smaller towns in the northern tier of the state as well as Iowa or northern Illinois. Some of the southern 'burbs, however (e.g. Kirkwood, Oakville)
do seem more like small towns in Arkansas. My 2nd cousin Curtis, who's just a bit older (71) than myself, lives on a farm in Hermann, on the south bank of the Missouri, raising mostly hops (and, of course, is
very thankful for the IPA "craze" among beer aficionados!); his demeanor is decidedly Southern (except for his distinctly left-of-center politics).
But I agree with separating out the N-S "strip" of states from OK north to ND as "plains" states -- but I'd actually also parse out the Great Lakes states (the "Chicagoland" part of IL, WI east of US 51, all of MI, IN north of IN 46, and OH northwest of I-71 and then north of US 30 to the PA state line) as a separate entity. To me, the actual Midwest lies north of the Missouri River and actually begins at the exurban outskirts of Chicagoland.
For whatever it's worth, most Plains residents consider themselves Midwestern.
Quote from: sparker on September 06, 2018, 06:09:15 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 05, 2018, 02:07:58 PM
I had a college professor who was from MO and thought I-70 was the diving line between "Southern Missouri" and "Midwestern Missouri." It appears to be the case at least with accents.
I'd venture that the Missouri River itself is more a definitive divisor between Southern and Midwest influences in MO. The metro area of St. Louis is sort of an amalgam of both (most of my mother's side of the family still live in that area); if you get to the northern exurbs (St. Peters, O'Fallon) they have characteristics similar to smaller towns in the northern tier of the state as well as Iowa or northern Illinois. Some of the southern 'burbs, however (e.g. Kirkwood, Oakville) do seem more like small towns in Arkansas. My 2nd cousin Curtis, who's just a bit older (71) than myself, lives on a farm in Hermann, on the south bank of the Missouri, raising mostly hops (and, of course, is very thankful for the IPA "craze" among beer aficionados!); his demeanor is decidedly Southern (except for his distinctly left-of-center politics).
But I agree with separating out the N-S "strip" of states from OK north to ND as "plains" states -- but I'd actually also parse out the Great Lakes states (the "Chicagoland" part of IL, WI east of US 51, all of MI, IN north of IN 46, and OH northwest of I-71 and then north of US 30 to the PA state line) as a separate entity. To me, the actual Midwest lies north of the Missouri River and actually begins at the exurban outskirts of Chicagoland.
Would this include the Madison area as part of the Great Lakes region? Because US 51 goes right through Madison (it runs along the east side as Stoughton Rd, west of I-39/90), and so would split Madison and separate the bulk of the city from its eastern suburbs.
So I found this image of Missouri, which I feel gives an accurate division:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZzzJ6kJ.jpg)
The north is Midwestern, the west Plains, the middle Ozark, and the bootheel Southern.
However, this helped me to get a better sense of what makes the Midwest the Midwest: it's the glacial till that makes up its soil. You can see this in the below map of the previous glacial maximum:
(https://i.imgur.com/9AcG4kg.gif)
At this point, it's possible to draw up a definition of the Midwest -
- Under ice at the last glacial maximum or surrounded by icebound areas
- Plains are the dominant landform
- It is east of 100 degrees West
Whenever I would travel from Tennessee to Michigan, I considered everything south of I-64 to be the South, everything between I-64 to I-70 to be the transition zone, and north of I-70 to be the Midwest. This also (usually) corresponded with whether or not I would see Krystal or White Castle on the blue logo signs and whether I would see Meijer stores, which I consider to be a staple of the Midwest. The one exception that I know of is that there is a Meijer in Richmond (?), KY on I-75, which is south of I-64 and I believe it is in Berea that has both a White Castle and Krystal logo on their blue logo sign.
Quote from: ce929wax on September 21, 2018, 07:06:59 PM
Whenever I would travel from Tennessee to Michigan, I considered everything south of I-64 to be the South, everything between I-64 to I-70 to be the transition zone, and north of I-70 to be the Midwest. This also (usually) corresponded with whether or not I would see Krystal or White Castle on the blue logo signs and whether I would see Meijer stores, which I consider to be a staple of the Midwest. The one exception that I know of is that there is a Meijer in Richmond (?), KY on I-75, which is south of I-64 and I believe it is in Berea that has both a White Castle and Krystal logo on their blue logo sign.
There's a Meijer even farther south than Richmond now, but it's on I-65 at Bowling Green. And London, even farther south than Berea, has a Krystal (Exit 38) and White Castle (Exit 41).
Quote from: hbelkins on September 22, 2018, 04:38:31 PM
Quote from: ce929wax on September 21, 2018, 07:06:59 PM
Whenever I would travel from Tennessee to Michigan, I considered everything south of I-64 to be the South, everything between I-64 to I-70 to be the transition zone, and north of I-70 to be the Midwest. This also (usually) corresponded with whether or not I would see Krystal or White Castle on the blue logo signs and whether I would see Meijer stores, which I consider to be a staple of the Midwest. The one exception that I know of is that there is a Meijer in Richmond (?), KY on I-75, which is south of I-64 and I believe it is in Berea that has both a White Castle and Krystal logo on their blue logo sign.
There's a Meijer even farther south than Richmond now, but it's on I-65 at Bowling Green. And London, even farther south than Berea, has a Krystal (Exit 38) and White Castle (Exit 41).
I saw a Culver's on I-65 at Bowling Green when I went to Tennessee 4 years ago.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 22, 2018, 08:35:28 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 22, 2018, 04:38:31 PM
Quote from: ce929wax on September 21, 2018, 07:06:59 PM
Whenever I would travel from Tennessee to Michigan, I considered everything south of I-64 to be the South, everything between I-64 to I-70 to be the transition zone, and north of I-70 to be the Midwest. This also (usually) corresponded with whether or not I would see Krystal or White Castle on the blue logo signs and whether I would see Meijer stores, which I consider to be a staple of the Midwest. The one exception that I know of is that there is a Meijer in Richmond (?), KY on I-75, which is south of I-64 and I believe it is in Berea that has both a White Castle and Krystal logo on their blue logo sign.
There's a Meijer even farther south than Richmond now, but it's on I-65 at Bowling Green. And London, even farther south than Berea, has a Krystal (Exit 38) and White Castle (Exit 41).
I saw a Culver's on I-65 at Bowling Green when I went to Tennessee 4 years ago.
Yes, and there's also one at Somerset. I have dined at both.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 21, 2018, 04:43:17 AM
For whatever it's worth, most Plains residents consider themselves Midwestern.
For me, the Midwest is the Dakotas (minus the Black Hills cause we're mountain men), Nebraska, Kansas, Minnesota, Iowa, northern Missouri, Wisconsin, and Illinois.
Even though Indiana and Ohio are similar they just have an "Eastern" feel to me.
Quote from: ce929wax on September 21, 2018, 07:06:59 PM
I would see Meijer stores, which I consider to be a staple of the Midwest.
I've never been in a Meijer... I have been in a HyVee though!
"Midwest" is such an outdated term for a part of the country that is far closer to the eastern edge of the continent.
We should call it the Mideast and let heads explode.
^^ The NCAA used to have a mideast regional for the basketball tournament and still does for a few sports.
Quote from: Bruce on September 22, 2018, 09:44:04 PM
"Midwest" is such an outdated term for a part of the country that is far closer to the eastern edge of the continent.
We should call it the Mideast and let heads explode.
No. By that logic, the Great Plains states would be part of the "east", when they're really not.
How about the middle.
Quote from: Big John on September 22, 2018, 09:51:50 PM
^^ The NCAA used to have a mideast regional for the basketball tournament and still does for a few sports.
Which included the Big Ten, SEC and Ohio Valley. And if independents like Notre Dame or Marquette got bids, they went to the Mideast. The East was the ACC and the schools/conferences in the northeast. Midwest was Big 8, SWC and I think Missouri Valley. West was Big Sky and Pac 8.
Now they're called East, Southeast, Midwest and West, but geography has nothing to do with where conference champions are placed the way it did back then.
I got nostalgic reading some of those conference names, HB. I remember that Indiana State was a MVC school when Larry Bird was there and they might still be. I guess that makes Indian the Midwest :).
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 23, 2018, 12:40:00 AM
Quote from: Bruce on September 22, 2018, 09:44:04 PM
"Midwest" is such an outdated term for a part of the country that is far closer to the eastern edge of the continent.
We should call it the Mideast and let heads explode.
No. By that logic, the Great Plains states would be part of the "east", when they're really not.
That might be why I have a hard time thinking of the Great Plains as part of the Midwest. I tend to think of the Midwest as being in the eastern part of the country.
Quote from: jon daly on September 23, 2018, 05:39:10 PM
I got nostalgic reading some of those conference names, HB. I remember that Indiana State was a MVC school when Larry Bird was there and they might still be. I guess that makes Indian the Midwest :).
Louisville was MVC for years. I don't remember when they left the MVC for the old Metro Conference, but it wasn't until around 1980 or '81 that the whole concept of Louisville playing Kentucky got to be a Thing. The NCAA tried to set that up in the 1982 tournament, but UK lost to Middle Tennessee in the NCAA (that was back when the top seeds in each region got byes, and Louisville had a bye.) The following year was when the teams played in the Mideast Region finals in Knoxville, and then that fall, they played a regular-season game.
One of the two over-the-air Lexington TV stations we got carried Louisville games, so we got to see a lot of Drake, Creighton and other MVC schools.
Quote from: vdeane on September 23, 2018, 08:29:58 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 23, 2018, 12:40:00 AM
Quote from: Bruce on September 22, 2018, 09:44:04 PM
"Midwest" is such an outdated term for a part of the country that is far closer to the eastern edge of the continent.
We should call it the Mideast and let heads explode.
No. By that logic, the Great Plains states would be part of the "east", when they're really not.
That might be why I have a hard time thinking of the Great Plains as part of the Midwest. I tend to think of the Midwest as being in the eastern part of the country.
I would still include Minnesota and Iowa at the very least.
Still call it the Midwest because it's "mid way to the actually West". ;)
The actual West has deserts and mountains.
However the NCAA screws it up by calling one of the "sides" of the March Madness the Midwest. Considering the other three "sides" are South, East and West they really should call that one North instead of Midwest (as I do anyway).
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on September 25, 2018, 05:09:49 PM
However the NCAA screws it up by calling one of the "sides" of the March Madness the Midwest. Considering the other three "sides" are South, East and West they really should call that one North instead of Midwest (as I do anyway).
But that's how the US is divided, so I don't see anything wrong with this.
I've lived in Illinois and Kansas my whole life, grew up in the northwestern corner of Kansas. It never occurred to me that I was not living in the Midwest. To me, the Great Plains is a subsection of the Midwest.
To me, the Midwest extends from the Front Range to Ohio, and from the Canadian border to whatever point begins the Mid-south. My thinking might be more agricultural in nature than anything: the Midwest is the part of the country between the East and the West with extensive large-scale farming.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 22, 2018, 08:35:28 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 22, 2018, 04:38:31 PM
Quote from: ce929wax on September 21, 2018, 07:06:59 PM
Whenever I would travel from Tennessee to Michigan, I considered everything south of I-64 to be the South, everything between I-64 to I-70 to be the transition zone, and north of I-70 to be the Midwest. This also (usually) corresponded with whether or not I would see Krystal or White Castle on the blue logo signs and whether I would see Meijer stores, which I consider to be a staple of the Midwest. The one exception that I know of is that there is a Meijer in Richmond (?), KY on I-75, which is south of I-64 and I believe it is in Berea that has both a White Castle and Krystal logo on their blue logo sign.
There's a Meijer even farther south than Richmond now, but it's on I-65 at Bowling Green. And London, even farther south than Berea, has a Krystal (Exit 38) and White Castle (Exit 41).
I saw a Culver's on I-65 at Bowling Green when I went to Tennessee 4 years ago.
Culver's goes beyond the midwest now. They have expanded to Florida and Arizona.
I might have missed a post or two, but this is Reply #93 and I could only find one user on the thread so far (
TXtoNJ) who both (a) lives between California and the Mississippi and (b) does
not consider Kansas to be part of the Midwest. And the trend seems to be that, the farther someone lives from this area, the less likely they are to consider Kansas part of the Midwest. Plenty of posts from the IL/IN area stating KC should be part of the Midwest, but the rest of Kansas shouldn't. Plenty of posts from the Atlantic states excluding Kansas in its entirety. In contrast, I think all of us who live either in Kansas or KC or Oklahoma consider Kansas to be part of the Midwest.
This confirms the statement below:
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 21, 2018, 04:43:17 AM
For whatever it's worth, most Plains residents consider themselves Midwestern.
Instead of using Culver's or Meijier's to determine the coverage of the Midwest, how about Menards? Outside one or two in Kentucky and Wyoming it's pretty much Midwestern territory.
Quote from: vdeane on September 23, 2018, 08:29:58 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 23, 2018, 12:40:00 AM
Quote from: Bruce on September 22, 2018, 09:44:04 PM
"Midwest" is such an outdated term for a part of the country that is far closer to the eastern edge of the continent.
We should call it the Mideast and let heads explode.
No. By that logic, the Great Plains states would be part of the "east", when they're really not.
That might be why I have a hard time thinking of the Great Plains as part of the Midwest. I tend to think of the Midwest as being in the eastern part of the country.
Expanding this, I tend to think of the Midwest as "the northeastern part of the country that isn't actually part of the Northeast". The Mississippi River, to me, is a Very Important Boundary (as is the Ohio River).
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 25, 2018, 05:19:30 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on September 25, 2018, 05:09:49 PM
However the NCAA screws it up by calling one of the "sides" of the March Madness the Midwest. Considering the other three "sides" are South, East and West they really should call that one North instead of Midwest (as I do anyway).
But that's how the US is divided, so I don't see anything wrong with this.
To me the North means the Northeast plus the Midwest. Kind of like the old boundaries between North and South during the Civil War.
Quote from: kphoger on September 25, 2018, 07:07:47 PM
I've lived in Illinois and Kansas my whole life, grew up in the northwestern corner of Kansas. It never occurred to me that I was not living in the Midwest. To me, the Great Plains is a subsection of the Midwest.
To me, the Midwest extends from the Front Range to Ohio, and from the Canadian border to whatever point begins the Mid-south. My thinking might be more agricultural in nature than anything: the Midwest is the part of the country between the East and the West with extensive large-scale farming.
Doesn't that mean you would consider places like Denver to be part of the Midwest? I'm pretty sure anybody in Colorado would consider themselves Western.
Quote from: vdeane on September 25, 2018, 09:38:26 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 23, 2018, 08:29:58 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 23, 2018, 12:40:00 AM
Quote from: Bruce on September 22, 2018, 09:44:04 PM
"Midwest" is such an outdated term for a part of the country that is far closer to the eastern edge of the continent.
We should call it the Mideast and let heads explode.
No. By that logic, the Great Plains states would be part of the "east", when they're really not.
That might be why I have a hard time thinking of the Great Plains as part of the Midwest. I tend to think of the Midwest as being in the eastern part of the country.
Expanding this, I tend to think of the Midwest as "the northeastern part of the country that isn't actually part of the Northeast". The Mississippi River, to me, is a Very Important Boundary (as is the Ohio River).
I would very much consider Minnesota and Iowa part of the Midwest, despite being west of the Mississippi.
Quote from: SD Mapman on September 22, 2018, 09:42:34 PM
Quote from: ce929wax on September 21, 2018, 07:06:59 PM
I would see Meijer stores, which I consider to be a staple of the Midwest.
I've never been in a Meijer... I have been in a HyVee though!
We have a HyVee out in Madison. Three, actually, in the Madison area. Those are the only HyVee stores in Wisconsin.
We're also getting a Meijer in my hometown as well. Idk when it's going to be built, but land acquisition has already happened and groundbreaking should start soon, either late this year or early next year, so it should be opening within the next few years for sure. Sheboygan's also getting one, too, that they just started working on almost two months ago. Part of the ever expanding Meijer presence in eastern Wisconsin.
Quote from: kphoger on September 25, 2018, 08:48:03 PM
Plenty of posts from the IL/IN area stating KC should be part of the Midwest, but the rest of Kansas shouldn't.
Yikes. If anything, I would have that reversed. Anything with ties to Missouri is very distinctly un-Midwestern, being a much better fit with the Mid-South/south in general.
Meanwhile, I agree that Kansas, and to a lesser extent Oklahoma, are very much a part of the Midwest. Excluding some of the most centrally-located and flattest states in the nation from one's definition of Midwest seems a bit foolish - aren't flat and central
the geographic qualifiers?
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 26, 2018, 01:42:17 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 25, 2018, 09:38:26 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 23, 2018, 08:29:58 PM
That might be why I have a hard time thinking of the Great Plains as part of the Midwest. I tend to think of the Midwest as being in the eastern part of the country.
Expanding this, I tend to think of the Midwest as "the northeastern part of the country that isn't actually part of the Northeast". The Mississippi River, to me, is a Very Important Boundary (as is the Ohio River).
I would very much consider Minnesota and Iowa part of the Midwest, despite being west of the Mississippi.
Yeah, Minnesota and Iowa are very much part of the Midwest. In fact, if I had to pick one single state that is without question, undeniably, part of the Midwest, it would be Iowa. It's very agricultural, and it's a perfect geographic fit, being too far north to have cultural ties to the south, and situated distinctly west of East and east of West.
And I'd include the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas before I'd include Ohio, so there's that.
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 08:39:41 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 25, 2018, 08:48:03 PM
Plenty of posts from the IL/IN area stating KC should be part of the Midwest, but the rest of Kansas shouldn't.
Yikes. If anything, I would have that reversed. Anything with ties to Missouri is very distinctly un-Midwestern, being a much better fit with the Mid-South/south in general.
Meanwhile, I agree that Kansas, and to a lesser extent Oklahoma, are very much a part of the Midwest. Excluding some of the most centrally-located and flattest states in the nation from one's definition of Midwest seems a bit foolish - aren't flat and central the geographic qualifiers?
It's impossible to include Oklahoma but exclude Missouri.
NCAA - The use of "regional" by the NCAA is very dated. As pointed out, they used to assign teams according to actual geography. This was because the $$ were in the live gate, and if Kentucky won the SEC and got sent to Louisville, or Indy, or Knoxville or Nashville and so on they sold a lot of tickets.
Now they have turned the whole thing into an over-analyzed try to make everybody equal thing which sends teams all over. Because the money is in the TV and one arena is the same as the next, all are just studios, really.
Outside of games involving local or local ish teams the easiest ticket in live sports to get is the first round NCAA, particularly the day sessions.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 26, 2018, 09:25:11 AM
NCAA - The use of "regional" by the NCAA is very dated. As pointed out, they used to assign teams according to actual geography. This was because the $$ were in the live gate, and if Kentucky won the SEC and got sent to Louisville, or Indy, or Knoxville or Nashville and so on they sold a lot of tickets.
Now they have turned the whole thing into an over-analyzed try to make everybody equal thing which sends teams all over. Because the money is in the TV and one arena is the same as the next, all are just studios, really.
Outside of games involving local or local ish teams the easiest ticket in live sports to get is the first round NCAA, particularly the day sessions.
Yeah. When I was heavily into college hoops and followed UConn, they'd wind up in whatever region. college basketball reference surely has the data, but I'd be willing to guess that the "de-regionalization" of the tournament happened after the Bird-Magic tournament turned the NCAA into a Big Time thing.*
* But I'm not sure if that's when March Madness started or if its a myth.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 26, 2018, 01:42:17 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 25, 2018, 07:07:47 PM
I've lived in Illinois and Kansas my whole life, grew up in the northwestern corner of Kansas. It never occurred to me that I was not living in the Midwest. To me, the Great Plains is a subsection of the Midwest.
To me, the Midwest extends from the Front Range to Ohio, and from the Canadian border to whatever point begins the Mid-south. My thinking might be more agricultural in nature than anything: the Midwest is the part of the country between the East and the West with extensive large-scale farming.
Doesn't that mean you would consider places like Denver to be part of the Midwest? I'm pretty sure anybody in Colorado would consider themselves Western.
No, Denver is part of the Front Range, and it is therefore part of the western boundary. Between the KS/CO state line and Denver, the geography becomes a little more western and the ranch-to-farm ratio increases, so that boundary is a little fuzzy. However, the plains do extend basically right up to Denver's doorstep, with large-scale farming on rectilinear plots right next door to DIA. I have distinct memories of looking out the window at DIA and seeing combines and cattle.
ETA: Anton (CO), for example, bears more resemblance to Strawn (IL) than you might think.
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 08:39:41 AM
And I'd include the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas before I'd include Ohio, so there's that.
When I first heard Cincinnati referred to as the "Queen City of the West," I thought it must be a joke. Then I started thinking about how long ago that moniker must have been applied, and it made more sense.
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 08:39:41 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 26, 2018, 01:42:17 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 25, 2018, 09:38:26 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 23, 2018, 08:29:58 PM
That might be why I have a hard time thinking of the Great Plains as part of the Midwest. I tend to think of the Midwest as being in the eastern part of the country.
Expanding this, I tend to think of the Midwest as "the northeastern part of the country that isn't actually part of the Northeast". The Mississippi River, to me, is a Very Important Boundary (as is the Ohio River).
I would very much consider Minnesota and Iowa part of the Midwest, despite being west of the Mississippi.
Yeah, Minnesota and Iowa are very much part of the Midwest. In fact, if I had to pick one single state that is without question, undeniably, part of the Midwest, it would be Iowa. It's very agricultural, and it's a perfect geographic fit, being too far north to have cultural ties to the south, and situated distinctly west of East and east of West.
I was thinking the same thing. That said, I like the idea of major rivers as boundaries. I might go with the Missouri River as the western boundary instead of the Mississippi.
Or, to echo a sentiment from further upthread, any state that had a Big Ten school prior to the 1990s.
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
Quote from: 1 on September 26, 2018, 08:47:12 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 08:39:41 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 25, 2018, 08:48:03 PM
Plenty of posts from the IL/IN area stating KC should be part of the Midwest, but the rest of Kansas shouldn't.
Yikes. If anything, I would have that reversed. Anything with ties to Missouri is very distinctly un-Midwestern, being a much better fit with the Mid-South/south in general.
Meanwhile, I agree that Kansas, and to a lesser extent Oklahoma, are very much a part of the Midwest. Excluding some of the most centrally-located and flattest states in the nation from one's definition of Midwest seems a bit foolish - aren't flat and central the geographic qualifiers?
It's impossible to include Oklahoma but exclude Missouri.
Not impossible; it just creates a Midwest region with a rather interesting shape. Missouri (and Southern IL for that matter) end up looking like a peninsula of the South jutting into the Midwest, which I think has merit.
Oklahoma, at least IMO, has more Midwestern characteristics than Missouri, although the further north you go in Missouri, the more Midwestern it gets. Anything south of I-44, in particular, has more in common with the South.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.
And the meth-head rednecks.
(halfway serious)
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 02:41:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.
And the meth-head rednecks.
(halfway serious)
Only halfway serious, because the real Midwest has some of those too :-D
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 02:44:41 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 02:41:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.
And the meth-head rednecks.
(halfway serious)
Only halfway serious, because the real Midwest has some of those too :-D
But still serious because of the sheer number of drug addicts I've known from the Ozarks. A former co-worker of mine used to live in Springfield, and he noticed it too. He had taken to calling Springfield "Meth Town USA". The ones I've known (and am related to) are from the Branson area.
On the redneck side of it... southern Missouri has that in spades.
Some parts of Oklahoma may seem economically midwestern, but culturally I have seen nothing but South.
I think meth is a serious problem across the country, not at all exclusive to any one part of the country. I've known a remarkable number of people here in the Pacific Northwest who have done meth, or were addicted.
So much debate about trivial matters. Anyway, I've always considered the Midwest to be Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota. The Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, and Oklahoma have always been the Plains States. Missouri is kind of on an island by itself, not really Midwest, or South, or Plains.
In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south. The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 04:38:02 PM
In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south. The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/b8cbff35e78f39b3ef4735da30e19f1b/tenor.gif?itemid=11240517)
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 04:38:02 PM
In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south. The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.
Agreed. North of I-70 has more in common with the Midwest, while South of I-44 is basically an extension of the South.
In between I-70 and I-44 is a bit of a gray zone - figuratively, not literally - but if I had to pick one as the hard line, I'd gravitate towards I-44.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 26, 2018, 03:50:36 PM
Some parts of Oklahoma may seem economically midwestern, but culturally I have seen nothing but South.
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 04:38:02 PM
In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south. The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.
Agreed. North of I-70 has more in common with the Midwest, while South of I-44 is basically an extension of the South.
In between I-70 and I-44 is a bit of a gray zone - figuratively, not literally - but if I had to pick one as the hard line, I'd gravitate towards I-44.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 26, 2018, 03:50:36 PM
Some parts of Oklahoma may seem economically midwestern, but culturally I have seen nothing but South.
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Having lived in both TX and OK, I can tell you - Oklahoma depends on which part of the state you're in. The Southeast is called "Little Dixie" and is very much like East Texas and Northern Louisiana in character. The rest of Eastern Oklahoma is called "Green Country" and functions as an extension of the Ozarks.
The center of the state is most like North Texas, unless you're north of a line running from about Elk City diagonally through Bartlesville and Miami, where the subtropical climate ends and it becomes more continental like Kansas.
The west of the state is the most like the Southwest, but it is nevertheless mostly Plains in character. Everywhere north and west of Woodward is High Plains, particularly in the Panhandle.
I also struggle with where to draw the line between Fargo, ND (obviously the Midwest) and Glacier National Park, MT (obviously not).
Quote from: kphoger on September 27, 2018, 10:03:11 AM
I also struggle with where to draw the line between Fargo, ND (obviously the Midwest) and Glacier National Park, MT (obviously not).
100th Meridian works just fine, IMHO.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
Missouri, to an Upper Midwesterner's point of view is very much southern south of US-50. North of US-50, it might was well be southern Iowa.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 26, 2018, 04:28:05 PM
I think meth is a serious problem across the country, not at all exclusive to any one part of the country. I've known a remarkable number of people here in the Pacific Northwest who have done meth, or were addicted.
Meth actually made its way to the Appalachian Mountains by way of the Midwest. I attended a seminar about 15 years ago where the spread of meth from west to east was discussed. It was popular in the agricultural states of the Midwest because of the easy availability of anhydrous ammonia, one of the main ingredients. Meth makers were stealing the anhydrous ammonia used for fertilizer.
In regards to Missouri, my dealings have been south of I-44. I consider St. Louis to be the Midwest, but consider places like Springfield to be the south. I also consider the bootheel to be the south because I saw many cotton farms along I-55. The only kind of "midwestern" quality the bootheel had was where you would begin to see Amoco stations on I-55 when they existed. However, Amoco was also in the South (at least the southeast), so there is that.
As for Oklahoma, my experience has been that Eastern Oklahoma has a lot of the same qualities as Arkansas and Western Oklahoma has a lot of the same qualities as Texas and even New Mexico in the panhandle. I would consider Eastern Oklahoma to be the south and Western Oklahoma to be the southwest.
A poll was just conducted, and out of 11,000 respondents...
(https://i.imgur.com/J0fYAT1.png)
https://www.kcur.org/news/2023-10-18/where-is-midwest-states-usa-definition-middle-west
I would like to see more detailed info for Wyoming: "I'm in Cheyenne, how different is that from western Nebraska" vs. "I don't know what the Midwest is".
Oklahoma surprises me, I consider it too far south to be "midwest".
Quote from: Big John on October 19, 2023, 12:32:31 PM
Oklahoma surprises me, I consider it too far south to be "midwest".
Meanwhile, I, having lived in a neighboring state most of my life and having lived less than an hour from the Oklahoma state line for the last 15 years, have been surprised how many people in Oklahoma
don't consider it to be part of the Midwest.
I saw this the other day and almost posted it. I don't know where the 42% of Coloradoans who say it's the Midwest are. Sure, the eastern plains I could get behind, but that sure as hell isn't 42% of the population.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 01:05:52 PM
I don't know where the 42% of Coloradoans who say it's the Midwest are. Sure, the eastern plains I could get behind, but that sure as hell isn't 42% of the population.
According to the site, "mostly on the Eastern slope and closer to the Midwest".
(https://i.imgur.com/IzuZOwf.jpg)
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 01:13:46 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 01:05:52 PM
I don't know where the 42% of Coloradoans who say it's the Midwest are. Sure, the eastern plains I could get behind, but that sure as hell isn't 42% of the population.
According to the site, "mostly on the Eastern slope and closer to the Midwest".
(https://i.imgur.com/IzuZOwf.jpg)
"Closer to the Midwest" seems a very odd way of describing locations for this study. Excel would highlight it as circular.
Seems madness that 100% of people in Durango, from the looks of things, think that's the Midwest.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 01:22:21 PM
Seems madness that 100% of people in Durango, from the looks of things, think that's the Midwest.
100% of
respondents. For all I know, that was one person. Supposedly, an open-source database will be available at a later date.
I will say that, growing up, I conceptualized "the West" as beginning at roughly the Sierra Nevada, and didn't really know what to call the area between there and the Front Range.
To me, the biggest surprise is Ohio and Michigan both at less than 90%. In the Rocky Mountain, Southern, and Mid-Atlantic states, identification with the Midwest is clearly a minority viewpoint. It also doesn't surprise me that Oklahoma scores close to the middle. It has cultural affinities to the South, especially in its eastern part, as well as a
sui generis history of being used for resettlement of Native tribes.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 01:26:22 PMI will say that, growing up, I conceptualized "the West" as beginning at roughly the Sierra Nevada, and didn't really know what to call the area between there and the Front Range.
I don't think I began to appreciate the distinction until I was an adult. In terms of dialectology, they are all one region that basically includes the High Plains west of Wichita, which is contact territory between the West and Upland South. In terms of geography and broad cultural factors, I tend to differentiate between the Pacific West, running from the coast to the crest of the coastal ranges, and the intermountain West, running from that line east to the Front Range.
The four western ones surprise me. ID doesn't make a lick of sense, but then again, little does in ID (still, having lived there, I didn't hear anyone say they were from the Midwest). MT, CO and WY are just weird.
RE: Ohio, Michigan, and the slightly lower numbers in WI/IL than their western neighbors, makes me wonder if some feel the Great Lakes is a stronger unique subregion than I would have thought.
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 01:39:44 PM
MT, CO and WY are just weird.
Parts aren't weird. If you're a farmer in Wibaux, Cheyenne Wells, or Lusk (in those states respectively), I get it. I don't understand Kalispell, Durango, or Cody which show 100% "Midwesternness".
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 02:28:52 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 01:39:44 PM
MT, CO and WY are just weird.
Parts aren't weird. If you're a farmer in Wibaux, Cheyenne Wells, or Lusk (in those states respectively), I get it. I don't understand Kalispell, Durango, or Cody which show 100% "Midwesternness".
Any tiny purple dot is 1 out of 1. You need to average the tiny purple dots with the tiny yellow dots in those parts of the states.
The percentage is still way too high, though.
They evidently didn't ask the question in TX, because who the heck in TX would think they were in the Midwest?
So why did they ask in ID?
Who knows - maybe 11% of Texans think they're in the Midwest. And maybe some weirdos in CA or FL or ME would affirm it as well.
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2023, 02:30:04 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 02:28:52 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 01:39:44 PM
MT, CO and WY are just weird.
Parts aren't weird. If you're a farmer in Wibaux, Cheyenne Wells, or Lusk (in those states respectively), I get it. I don't understand Kalispell, Durango, or Cody which show 100% "Midwesternness".
Any tiny purple dot is 1 out of 1. You need to average the tiny purple dots with the tiny yellow dots in those parts of the states.
The percentage is still way too high, though.
One person thinking Durango is in the Midwest is flat earth type of lunacy.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 02:28:52 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 01:39:44 PM
MT, CO and WY are just weird.
Parts aren't weird. If you're a farmer in Wibaux, Cheyenne Wells, or Lusk (in those states respectively), I get it. I don't understand Kalispell, Durango, or Cody which show 100% "Midwesternness".
Where, where and where, now? :D
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 03:15:00 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 02:28:52 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 01:39:44 PM
MT, CO and WY are just weird.
Parts aren't weird. If you're a farmer in Wibaux, Cheyenne Wells, or Lusk (in those states respectively), I get it. I don't understand Kalispell, Durango, or Cody which show 100% "Midwesternness".
Where, where and where, now? :D
Which, funnily enough, defines a good part of the Midwest. :)
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 03:15:00 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 02:28:52 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 01:39:44 PM
MT, CO and WY are just weird.
Parts aren't weird. If you're a farmer in Wibaux, Cheyenne Wells, or Lusk (in those states respectively), I get it. I don't understand Kalispell, Durango, or Cody which show 100% "Midwesternness".
Where, where and where, now? :D
Which, funnily enough, defines a good part of the Midwest. :)
Well-played.
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 03:15:00 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 02:28:52 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 01:39:44 PM
MT, CO and WY are just weird.
Parts aren't weird. If you're a farmer in Wibaux, Cheyenne Wells, or Lusk (in those states respectively), I get it. I don't understand Kalispell, Durango, or Cody which show 100% "Midwesternness".
Where, where and where, now? :D
Yeah. Well... I actually am familiar with Cheyenne Wells, but only because I grew up about two hours away.
But really, if you look at the map, people living along the Front Range seem to be pretty evenly split on the issue: roughly half consider themselves to live in the Midwest.
And that is basically how I think of it. Remember, I grew up less than an hour east of the Colorado state line. I think of the Midwest as extending basically to the Front Range. Eastern Colorado is kind of a transition zone, but I have zero problem calling
something like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Jo25aa8uvfyD7SG18) (basically due nort of Cheyenne Wells) "the Midwest".
I laugh when somebody from northern Oklahoma claims that it is part of the South. Culturally and geographically, Tulsa is much more like Kansas City than Macon. It isn't Southern at all. Oklahoma is on the cusp of several different regions, but the only part of the state that I would remotely consider Southern is Le Flore and McCurtain counties.
Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3
We have a few things in common with the South, but we're not the South. At least not in Central Oklahoma. I got more of a culture shock going to Mississippi than I did Nevada.
Quote from: SP Cook on August 17, 2018, 10:04:52 AM
But likewise many "southern" and "Ozark" places follow the Cardinals similarly.
I am originally from west central Arkansas, and now I live in northeastern Oklahoma. Both regions are solidly in Cardinals country. I used to work in a gas station in Broken Arrow, and I saw customers wearing Cardinals apparel all the time. The most common sports team apparel worn by customers was the Oklahoma Sooners, but the Cardinals were probably in second place. My grandfather, a native of Big Fork, Arkansas, was a gigantic Cardinals fan, which rubbed off on my sister and me.
Quote from: bugo on October 19, 2023, 03:49:17 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on August 17, 2018, 10:04:52 AM
But likewise many "southern" and "Ozark" places follow the Cardinals similarly.
I am originally from west central Arkansas, and now I live in northeastern Oklahoma. Both regions are solidly in Cardinals country. I used to work in a gas station in Broken Arrow, and I saw customers wearing Cardinals apparel all the time. The most common sports team apparel worn by customers was the Oklahoma Sooners, but the Cardinals were probably in second place. My grandfather, a native of Big Fork, Arkansas, was a gigantic Cardinals fan, which rubbed off on my sister and me.
Meanwhile you never see anyone wearing
any baseball attire, much less for any specific team, in Central Oklahoma. It's basically Sooners and Thunder down here mixed with random NFL teams.
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on August 18, 2018, 01:45:54 PM
This is how the folks of Wikipedia define the Midwest as well as the Upper Midwest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Midwest
Yeah, but they think Alice Cooper's "Poison" is a power ballad, so they can't be trusted. It's a rocker type song. Nothing balladlike about it at all.
Quote from: bugo on October 19, 2023, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on August 18, 2018, 01:45:54 PM
This is how the folks of Wikipedia define the Midwest as well as the Upper Midwest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Midwest
Yeah, but they think Alice Cooper's "Poison" is a power ballad, so they can't be trusted. It's a rocker type song. Nothing balladlike about it at all.
They also think DOT records can't be used to cite information about roads because it's a conflict of interest.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 03:23:52 PM
Yeah. Well... I actually am familiar with Cheyenne Wells, but only because I grew up about two hours away.
But really, if you look at the map, people living along the Front Range seem to be pretty evenly split on the issue: roughly half consider themselves to live in the Midwest.
And that is basically how I think of it. Remember, I grew up less than an hour east of the Colorado state line. I think of the Midwest as extending basically to the Front Range. Eastern Colorado is kind of a transition zone, but I have zero problem calling something like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Jo25aa8uvfyD7SG18) (basically due nort of Cheyenne Wells) "the Midwest".
Having lived on the Front Range for about 40% of my life, I've never heard anyone call this the Midwest.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 04:03:38 PM
Having lived on the Front Range for about 40% of my life, I've never heard anyone call this the Midwest.
What region do most people there say they live in, from your experience?
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 04:16:16 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 04:03:38 PM
Having lived on the Front Range for about 40% of my life, I've never heard anyone call this the Midwest.
What region do most people there say they live in, from your experience?
Mountain West or West.
The massive influx of folks into NWA came from Texas and California and other states and many of them have no sense of what Arkansas is. A native will tell you Arkansas is definitively southern.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2023, 01:34:47 PM
To me, the biggest surprise is Ohio and Michigan both at less than 90%.
The below point is one reason why I'm not particularly surprised by Ohio and Michigan, though I see it as a confluence of several factors:
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 19, 2023, 01:55:14 PM
RE: Ohio, Michigan, and the slightly lower numbers in WI/IL than their western neighbors, makes me wonder if some feel the Great Lakes is a stronger unique subregion than I would have thought.
They are also the two easternmost states that could be considered "Midwest", so some residents may see their state as too far east to be part of the Midwest.
Michigan specifically is comprised of two peninsulas geographically isolated from the rest of the Midwest and surrounded by three Great Lakes, so it makes sense that the Great Lakes are a much stronger part of the state's identity than the Midwest. And while farming does occur in Michigan, it's not as fertile as other parts of the Midwest nor part of the traditional "Corn Belt", so farming is more specialized in areas such as fruit and dairy, and the state's economy is less agriculture-dependent than other Midwestern states overall. Northern Michigan also frankly doesn't feel Midwestern at all. It has much more in common with parts of Ontario and northern New York than it does with Illinois or Iowa - it's no coincidence that I've compared I-75 north of Flint to I-81 north of Syracuse.
Ohio is interesting because it lies at the confluence of several geographic and cultural regions - the Midwest, the Rust Belt, the Great Lakes, and the Ohio Valley. I tend to see I-71 as the very rough dividing line between areas that feel Midwestern and those that don't. Cleveland, much like Detroit, has strong historical ties to the Great Lakes as a former Rust Belt manufacturing hub, and is really no more Midwestern than Pittsburgh other than by association with the state of Ohio as a whole. Columbus has more of a modern cosmopolitan vibe that has a more Midwestern feel, similar to cities such as Indianapolis and Des Moines. Meanwhile, Cincinnati, and much of southern Ohio, for that matter - hello, Hocking Hills - feels more southern than midwestern and could pass for Kentucky or West Virginia but is worlds away from the Great Plains.
In short, there's just a lot more nuance with Ohio and Michigan than there is with most of the other traditional Midwestern states, and there are areas of both states that are pretty clearly not Midwestern in any sense of the word.
ND, SD, NE, KS, IA, MO, MN, WI, IL, IN, MI, OH. The former six are Great Plains and the latter six are Great Lakes.
Of those, the only states I feel "should" be broken up are MO and OH - southeast MO seems more southern and southeast OH seems more Appalachian. But both those states are majority Midwestern, so for the sake of simplicity, I consider them Midwestern.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 03:47:40 PM
Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3
Having not been to Oklahoma, hearing it described this way is clever and aligns with what I thought. Though I'm a bit surpised it's more similar to Missouri than Arkansas, considering the length of their respective borders?
In elementary school social studies in Grand Forks, ND, we were taught that North Dakota is a part of the Midwest. I didn't hear about the Plains states being a separate region until well after moving to the Twin Cities, and I still don't think the Plains states are really worthy of being a separate region.
Quote from: webny99 on October 19, 2023, 08:10:58 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2023, 01:34:47 PM
To me, the biggest surprise is Ohio and Michigan both at less than 90%.
The below point is one reason why I'm not particularly surprised by Ohio and Michigan, though I see it as a confluence of several factors:
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 19, 2023, 01:55:14 PM
RE: Ohio, Michigan, and the slightly lower numbers in WI/IL than their western neighbors, makes me wonder if some feel the Great Lakes is a stronger unique subregion than I would have thought.
They are also the two easternmost states that could be considered "Midwest", so some residents may see their state as too far east to be part of the Midwest.
Michigan specifically is comprised of two peninsulas geographically isolated from the rest of the Midwest and surrounded by three Great Lakes, so it makes sense that the Great Lakes are a much stronger part of the state's identity than the Midwest. And while farming does occur in Michigan, it's not as fertile as other parts of the Midwest nor part of the traditional "Corn Belt", so farming is more specialized in areas such as fruit and dairy, and the state's economy is less agriculture-dependent than other Midwestern states overall. Northern Michigan also frankly doesn't feel Midwestern at all. It has much more in common with parts of Ontario and northern New York than it does with Illinois or Iowa - it's no coincidence that I've compared I-75 north of Flint to I-81 north of Syracuse.
But northern MI is
most similar to northern WI and MN. Ontario is more hilly and rocky (and also on a completely different level of "wilderness" than the upper Midwest is).
Never been to upstate NY, but I've confused Michigan, and even Wisconsin, for New York and vice versa on Geoguessr. So I agree there, but I still think MI has more in common with fellow Midwestern states than anywhere else. My guess as to why they don't identify as 100% Midwestern is Yoopers who get a superiority complex from the fact that they haven't been to a city of more than 50,000 people in a decade.
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 01:39:44 PM
The four western ones surprise me. ID doesn't make a lick of sense, but then again, little does in ID (still, having lived there, I didn't hear anyone say they were from the Midwest). MT, CO and WY are just weird.
I think it's interesting that they surveyed ID but not NY. Have they never heard of Buffalo? NYC is not all of NY.
Quote from: vdeane on October 19, 2023, 08:40:01 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 01:39:44 PM
The four western ones surprise me. ID doesn't make a lick of sense, but then again, little does in ID (still, having lived there, I didn't hear anyone say they were from the Midwest). MT, CO and WY are just weird.
I think it's interesting that they surveyed ID but not NY. Have they never heard of Buffalo? NYC is not all of NY.
I agree, but if their formula was "percentage of state's population that would laugh at this question < 50%", then NY would be out. Anyone north/west of I-88 would totally understand why NY would be included, but the rest of the state wouldn't, and that's unfortunately the large majority of the state's population. They also probably wanted to exclude states that touch either coast because of the nature of the term
Midwest.
The Pennsylvanians who consider themselves Midwestern probably live near Pittsburgh (or anywhere in SWPA) or in Lancaster County.
My personal definition:
(https://i.imgur.com/gvExlMd.png)
Quote from: index on October 19, 2023, 09:22:12 PM
My personal definition:
(https://i.imgur.com/gvExlMd.png)
I'm down with most of this. I think the yellow region is maybe missing a few counties in Montana, and I think the Core would absorb a little bit more of the "Midwestern and Western", but I largely agree with your map. Well done.
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2023, 08:20:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 03:47:40 PM
Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3
Having not been to Oklahoma, hearing it described this way is clever and aligns with what I thought. Though I'm a bit surpised it's more similar to Missouri than Arkansas, considering the length of their respective borders?
There is a decent amount of commonality between Tulsa and NWA, but I would say if you put straight undiluted Arkansas in the equation you'd end up with something that was a bit too Southern to be Oklahoma as a whole. Granted, this differs depending on where in the state you are—a friend of mine grew up in Stigler and she did all of her big-city stuff in Fort Smith, so that part of the state would naturally have more Arkansas influence than the rest.
Put another way, Oklahoma is Southern in the "eats too much fried food" and "college football is a way of life" ways, but not really Southern in the "southern belle" and "NASCAR" and "weird Southern social structure" way, if that makes sense.
We indeed consider Michigan to be in the Midwest. Michigan and Wisconsin are a lot alike and Minnesota is as well, those states are definitely in the Midwest.
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2023, 08:32:27 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 19, 2023, 08:10:58 PM
...
Michigan specifically is comprised of two peninsulas geographically isolated from the rest of the Midwest and surrounded by three Great Lakes, so it makes sense that the Great Lakes are a much stronger part of the state's identity than the Midwest. And while farming does occur in Michigan, it's not as fertile as other parts of the Midwest nor part of the traditional "Corn Belt", so farming is more specialized in areas such as fruit and dairy, and the state's economy is less agriculture-dependent than other Midwestern states overall. Northern Michigan also frankly doesn't feel Midwestern at all. It has much more in common with parts of Ontario and northern New York than it does with Illinois or Iowa - it's no coincidence that I've compared I-75 north of Flint to I-81 north of Syracuse.
But northern MI is most similar to northern WI and MN. Ontario is more hilly and rocky (and also on a completely different level of "wilderness" than the upper Midwest is).
Yes, but the parts of northern WI and MN that are similar to northern MI aren't as dominant in their respective states. Also Milwaukee and the Twin Cities are more "midwestern" than Detroit, both geographically and culturally.
The comparison to Ontario is also nuanced. Yes, there are parts of Ontario that are on a different level of "wilderness" - especially inland north of Sudbury along the ON 11 corridor, but there are also parts that are quite comparable - notably between Toronto and Ottawa, and north of Toronto along the Georgian Bay.
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2023, 08:32:27 PM
Never been to upstate NY, but I've confused Michigan, and even Wisconsin, for New York and vice versa on Geoguessr. So I agree there, but I still think MI has more in common with fellow Midwestern states than anywhere else. My guess as to why they don't identify as 100% Midwestern is Yoopers who get a superiority complex from the fact that they haven't been to a city of more than 50,000 people in a decade.
The UP is no doubt a big factor, as it is the most remote and least-Midwestern part of the state, but the state's geography (two peninsulas surrounded by lakes that somewhat isolate it from the rest of the Midwest) make it somewhat distinct - it is the
Great Lakes state, after all. I think of it as somewhat similar to how Buffalo prefers to be labeled "Western NY" rather than the generic "Upstate NY" because Western NY invokes their local pride and is more specific to them. Even though most people around the country see Western NY as a sub-region of Upstate NY, many locals see it as its own separate region, and I can see that same dynamic going on with the Great Lakes and the Midwest.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 12:37:45 PM
Quote from: Big John on October 19, 2023, 12:32:31 PM
Oklahoma surprises me, I consider it too far south to be "midwest".
Meanwhile, I, having lived in a neighboring state most of my life and having lived less than an hour from the Oklahoma state line for the last 15 years, have been surprised how many people in Oklahoma don't consider it to be part of the Midwest.
I can't explain why, but I also tend to lump Oklahoma with Texas rather than as part of the Midwest. Maybe because that's what the Census Bureau does. Including Oklahoma in the Midwest also raises the question of what to do with the panhandles. Should Oklahoma's be lumped with Texas, in the South/southwest? Or should Texas' be lumped with Oklahoma, in the Midwest?
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 10:05:10 PM
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2023, 08:20:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 03:47:40 PM
Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3
Having not been to Oklahoma, hearing it described this way is clever and aligns with what I thought. Though I'm a bit surpised it's more similar to Missouri than Arkansas, considering the length of their respective borders?
There is a decent amount of commonality between Tulsa and NWA, but I would say if you put straight undiluted Arkansas in the equation you'd end up with something that was a bit too Southern to be Oklahoma as a whole. Granted, this differs depending on where in the state you are—a friend of mine grew up in Stigler and she did all of her big-city stuff in Fort Smith, so that part of the state would naturally have more Arkansas influence than the rest.
I like the idea of using Missouri instead of Arkansas to dilute the South part of the equation. Missouri is also a bit southern in some respects, but Arkansas is too close to a Deep South superlative.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 10:05:10 PM
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2023, 08:20:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 03:47:40 PM
Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3
Having not been to Oklahoma, hearing it described this way is clever and aligns with what I thought. Though I'm a bit surpised it's more similar to Missouri than Arkansas, considering the length of their respective borders?
There is a decent amount of commonality between Tulsa and NWA, but I would say if you put straight undiluted Arkansas in the equation you'd end up with something that was a bit too Southern to be Oklahoma as a whole. Granted, this differs depending on where in the state you are—a friend of mine grew up in Stigler and she did all of her big-city stuff in Fort Smith, so that part of the state would naturally have more Arkansas influence than the rest.
Put another way, Oklahoma is Southern in the "eats too much fried food" and "college football is a way of life" ways, but not really Southern in the "southern belle" and "NASCAR" and "weird Southern social structure" way, if that makes sense.
College football is a huge part of life in the Midwest too. Ever hear of the Big Ten?
I will say that driving west on I-40, there was a definite cultural shift that I observed driving west across Arkansas and Oklahoma. Memphis and Little Rock are solidly southern, but there was definitely something different about Fort Smith when I drove through that felt more...western, I guess? Oklahoma City is basically 40% Midwest, 40% Texas, and 20% West. As you go west on 40, the Midwest contribution goes down and the West and Texas contributions goes up.
Quote from: US 89 on October 19, 2023, 11:01:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 10:05:10 PM
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2023, 08:20:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 03:47:40 PM
Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3
Having not been to Oklahoma, hearing it described this way is clever and aligns with what I thought. Though I'm a bit surpised it's more similar to Missouri than Arkansas, considering the length of their respective borders?
There is a decent amount of commonality between Tulsa and NWA, but I would say if you put straight undiluted Arkansas in the equation you'd end up with something that was a bit too Southern to be Oklahoma as a whole. Granted, this differs depending on where in the state you are—a friend of mine grew up in Stigler and she did all of her big-city stuff in Fort Smith, so that part of the state would naturally have more Arkansas influence than the rest.
Put another way, Oklahoma is Southern in the "eats too much fried food" and "college football is a way of life" ways, but not really Southern in the "southern belle" and "NASCAR" and "weird Southern social structure" way, if that makes sense.
College football is a huge part of life in the Midwest too. Ever hear of the Big Ten?
I will say that driving west on I-40, there was a definite cultural shift that I observed driving west across Arkansas and Oklahoma. Memphis and Little Rock are solidly southern, but there was definitely something different about Fort Smith when I drove through that felt more...western, I guess? Oklahoma City is basically 40% Midwest, 40% Texas, and 20% West. As you go west on 40, the Midwest contribution goes down and the West and Texas contributions goes up.
Arkansas, like myself, is tough to throw into a single bucket. It was a western frontier (Ft. Smith, Siloam Springs, Texarkana) for long enough to have had those rougher influences when the state was new and the agricultural part of the state was the "civilized" part. The mountainous parts were islands that resisted outside influence much longer than the western frontier border lasted. If you had to split Arkansas into 2 regions only, US-67 would be the dividing transitional line, naturally due to terrain, but also culture. Everything north and west of US-67 was undeveloped wasteland back when agriculture was almost the entire economy of the state. When automation occurred in the agricultural sector, and the advent of rural electrification happened along with it all of the early to mid twentieth century dam building by the US Army Corps of Engineers for flood control and hydropower, the northwestern half of the state started coming into its own economically, and the southeastern half automated away their need for black and poor white labor, depressing that part of the state economically except for the landowners who tended to have giant tracts nearly from the start of statehood. Much of the state east and south of US-67 is owned by corporations, either agricultural or timber. Geography very much determined when portions of the state developed, and who immigrated into it to develop it.
NWA contains relatively few natives, but before the Corps lakes like Table Rock and especially Beaver Lake, it couldn't support a very large population due to a lack of water as it's tougher drilling water wells into rock than it is sand or soil, and the river valley along the White River are very much too steep and boxed in to support a large population until you get to Batesville. That late stage development of the area means that the mobility brought on by service jobs dependant on Internet access benefit the movement of people who have the means to do so, which means that NWA has a lot more immigrants from other states or nations than just about the rest of the state combined, which means that the rest of Arkansas almost doesn't claim NWA except as Razorback fans, and I would say that NWA doesn't claim the rest of Arkansas, reciprocally. I've lived in western Arkansas my whole life but traveled pretty much the entire nation except New England. Don't really see many other places that hold a draw for me in comparison. But Arkansas south and east of US-67 has almost nothing in common with this part of the state other than showing up just as commonly in the Arkansas State Police YouTube channels running from the ASP and getting PIT'd out and arrested.
NWA feels almost midwestern in comparison with Tulsa and KC influencing it more than Little Rock. Probably why Little Rock keeps 80% of ARDOT funds to itself and it's taking way too long to finish portions of I-49.
Quote from: webny99 on October 19, 2023, 08:10:58 PM
Meanwhile, Cincinnati, and much of southern Ohio, for that matter - hello, Hocking Hills - feels more southern than midwestern and could pass for Kentucky or West Virginia but is worlds away from the Great Plains.
And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".
Quote from: Road Hog on October 19, 2023, 08:03:58 PM
A native will tell you Arkansas is definitively southern.
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 20, 2023, 07:55:20 AM
Arkansas ... is tough to throw into a single bucket ... NWA feels almost midwestern in comparison with Tulsa and KC influencing it more than Little Rock.
Are you an Arkansas native? :hmmm:
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 19, 2023, 08:10:58 PM
Meanwhile, Cincinnati, and much of southern Ohio, for that matter - hello, Hocking Hills - feels more southern than midwestern and could pass for Kentucky or West Virginia but is worlds away from the Great Plains.
And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".
And St. Louis is obviously "Gateway to the West".
I don't think everything west of those cities is THE West.
The Wolverines are the "Champions of the West". At least they were back in 1898 when the song was written.
The concept of what "feels" Midwestern is an interesting one. What are some of the defining cultural characteristics of areas that feel Midwestern?
Quote from: minneha on October 20, 2023, 11:40:34 AM
The concept of what "feels" Midwestern is an interesting one. What are some of the defining cultural characteristics of areas that feel Midwestern?
Some things for me... Mostly flat terrain dominated by quarter-section farming, historical settlement by those of central and northern European descent, anti-slavery or slavery-neutral history, dominance of the casserole. I don't know, really, I've never tried to itemize these things before.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 19, 2023, 08:10:58 PM
Meanwhile, Cincinnati, and much of southern Ohio, for that matter - hello, Hocking Hills - feels more southern than midwestern and could pass for Kentucky or West Virginia but is worlds away from the Great Plains.
And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".
Was... almost 200 years ago. :D
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 11:44:42 AM
Quote from: minneha on October 20, 2023, 11:40:34 AM
The concept of what "feels" Midwestern is an interesting one. What are some of the defining cultural characteristics of areas that feel Midwestern?
Some things for me... Mostly flat terrain dominated by quarter-section farming, historical settlement by those of central and northern European descent, anti-slavery or slavery-neutral history, dominance of the casserole. I don't know, really, I've never tried to itemize these things before.
When you put it like that, 85% and 78% for Michigan and Ohio respectively seems
too high.
I also realized that in this very thread, back in 2018, I had two takes that turned out to be home runs, at least according to the poll we've been discussing:
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 08:39:41 AMIn fact, if I had to pick one single state that is without question, undeniably, part of the Midwest, it would be Iowa. It's very agricultural, and it's a perfect geographic fit ...
96.7% of Iowans said they live in the Midwest, the greatest percentage of any state.
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 08:39:41 AM
And I'd include the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas before I'd include Ohio, so there's that.
Between 91% and 94% of respondents in the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas said they live in the Midwest, while only 78.2% of Ohioans said they live in the Midwest.
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2023, 12:06:14 PM
When you put it like that, 85% and 78% for Michigan and Ohio respectively seems too high.
Not surprising, considering my personal history. I've never been to Ohio (other than through the very southern parts on Amtrak), and the only two nights I've spent in Michigan were during the same hitchhiking trip. Meanwhile, I've lived my whole life in Illinois and Kansas.
Honestly, I'm curious to know if y'all consider the UP to be part of the Midwest. Or is it just the Mitten?
My definition of the Midwest:
Relatively flat topography
Neutral American accent with a trend towards elongated vowels
Agriculture dominates rural areas
As kphoger said, culinary traditions include things like casserole, jello/fruit salad, ranch/French dressing, puppy chow
Lack of diversity (largely Caucasian) in rural areas
Small towns with lots of brick buildings on the main street
General friendliness and willingness to talk to anyone at anytime about any topic
Delayed goodbyes when leaving events
The use of the word "Ope"
Higher incidence of Pop vs. Soda
I'm sure I could come up with more.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 20, 2023, 12:50:34 PM
Delayed goodbyes when leaving events
This ritual begins by one party slapping his thighs and exclaiming, "Welp! ..." Standing up from the couch at that point may promptly ensue—but not necessarily—though sitting back down again is still likely.
The phrase "Guess I'd better get out of your hair" usually figures into the conversation, too.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 19, 2023, 08:10:58 PM
Meanwhile, Cincinnati, and much of southern Ohio, for that matter - hello, Hocking Hills - feels more southern than midwestern and could pass for Kentucky or West Virginia but is worlds away from the Great Plains.
And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".
Funny that you say that. There are a number of people who cite northern Kentucky and Louisville's proximity to Ohio and Indiana as reasons for Kentucky being more midwestern than southern.
Kentucky feels more Appalachian than either southern or midwestern to me, personally.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 20, 2023, 02:09:01 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 19, 2023, 08:10:58 PM
Meanwhile, Cincinnati, and much of southern Ohio, for that matter - hello, Hocking Hills - feels more southern than midwestern and could pass for Kentucky or West Virginia but is worlds away from the Great Plains.
And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".
Funny that you say that. There are a number of people who cite northern Kentucky and Louisville's proximity to Ohio and Indiana as reasons for Kentucky being more midwestern than southern.
Kentucky feels more Appalachian than either southern or midwestern to me, personally.
The problem is that the change is gradual and not sharp.
Central Indiana is a bit more southern than northern Indiana.
Southern Indiana is a bit more southern than central Indiana.
Kentucky is a bit more southern than southern Indiana.
Tennessee is a bit more southern than Kentucky.
There's no obvious place, save the Ohio River, to draw a line between Midwest and South.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 12:16:27 PM
Honestly, I'm curious to know if y'all consider the UP to be part of the Midwest. Or is it just the Mitten?
Yes, by virtue of being part of Michigan. But, as I've said, if anyone from Michigan - either peninsula - considers themselves to be from the Great Lakes and separates that in their mind from the Midwest, I get it.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 20, 2023, 02:51:15 PM
The problem is that the change is gradual and not sharp.
Central Indiana is a bit more southern than northern Indiana.
Southern Indiana is a bit more southern than central Indiana.
Kentucky is a bit more southern than southern Indiana.
Tennessee is a bit more southern than Kentucky.
There's no obvious place, save the Ohio River, to draw a line between Midwest and South.
In Illinois, it's somewhere between Effingham and Mount Vernon.
Source: sweet tea
vs unsweet tea at McDonald's
I'm sure many of you are familiar with the U.S. Census Bureau's Census Regions. I really admire the simplicity of the groupings and think it works pretty well for a four-region division in a country as diverse and large as the United States. It's the basic four-region division: West, Midwest, South, and Northeast. The West is the 11 westernmost states in the lower 48, plus Alaska and Hawaii. The Midwest is the 12-state region from North Dakota to Kansas and then east to Ohio. The South is from Oklahoma and Texas east to Maryland and Delaware, including D.C. and West Virginia. The Northeast is Pennsylvania and New Jersey north to Maine.
It does work pretty well as a way to divide the country along state lines. I honestly wouldn't change a single thing about the West or Midwest groupings. The only thing I would maybe change would be to put Delaware, Maryland, and D.C. in the Northeast. But that's debatable.
Places on the periphery of their region are going to feel less like the core of their region, whether it's eastern Ohio feeling Northeastern or southern Missouri feeling Southern or northern Oklahoma feeling Midwestern. But I still think when looking at it from the vantage point of where does this state belong, Ohio and Missouri are Midwest states and Oklahoma is a Southern state, just as the Census Bureau places them. Even just from a pure geographic standpoint, Oklahoma is way further south than any Midwest state.
I've honestly always defined the Dakotas as being more along the lines of the "northern plains" rather than part of the midwest.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 20, 2023, 12:50:34 PM
My definition of the Midwest:
Relatively flat topography
Neutral American accent with a trend towards elongated vowels
Agriculture dominates rural areas
As kphoger said, culinary traditions include things like casserole, jello/fruit salad, ranch/French dressing, puppy chow
Lack of diversity (largely Caucasian) in rural areas
Small towns with lots of brick buildings on the main street
General friendliness and willingness to talk to anyone at anytime about any topic
Delayed goodbyes when leaving events
The use of the word "Ope"
Higher incidence of Pop vs. Soda
I'm sure I could come up with more.
I would add excessive door holding and being offended when someone has better things to do than make small talk with you.
Quote from: minneha on October 20, 2023, 07:00:30 PM
I'm sure many of you are familiar with the U.S. Census Bureau's Census Regions. I really admire the simplicity of the groupings and think it works pretty well for a four-region division in a country as diverse and large as the United States. It's the basic four-region division: West, Midwest, South, and Northeast. The West is the 11 westernmost states in the lower 48, plus Alaska and Hawaii. The Midwest is the 12-state region from North Dakota to Kansas and then east to Ohio. The South is from Oklahoma and Texas east to Maryland and Delaware, including D.C. and West Virginia. The Northeast is Pennsylvania and New Jersey north to Maine.
It does work pretty well as a way to divide the country along state lines. I honestly wouldn't change a single thing about the West or Midwest groupings. The only thing I would maybe change would be to put Delaware, Maryland, and D.C. in the Northeast. But that's debatable.
Places on the periphery of their region are going to feel less like the core of their region, whether it's eastern Ohio feeling Northeastern or southern Missouri feeling Southern or northern Oklahoma feeling Midwestern. But I still think when looking at it from the vantage point of where does this state belong, Ohio and Missouri are Midwest states and Oklahoma is a Southern state, just as the Census Bureau places them. Even just from a pure geographic standpoint, Oklahoma is way further south than any Midwest state.
My thoughts exactly.
Maybe the bigger problem is that we don't really have a region called "The North".
Quote from: thspfc on October 20, 2023, 07:52:52 PM
I would add excessive door holding ...
We all still remember one time that our best friend spent literally more than an hour standing in the doorway, with his hand on the doorknob, occasionally even with one foot out the door.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 07:53:11 PM
Maybe the bigger problem is that we don't really have a region called "The North".
I think the only states that would fit with each other in such a region would be MN, WI, and MI. The Dakotas have more in common with all their other neighbors than they do with the above three states - they're unquestionably Plains. Anything west of the Dakotas is distinctly western. All the northeastern states are more similar to each other than to anyone else.
If you were to expand the "north" southward, you'd have to include IL, IN, and OH, and now you have . . . the Midwest (or the Great Lakes subset of it).
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 07:53:11 PM
Maybe the bigger problem is that we don't really have a region called "The North".
History books sure mentioned "The North" a lot in the prelude to the Civil War. Arguably, "The North" would be the Midwest plus the Northeastern states. Way too broad of a region to classify as one region however.
As for the Midwest, I'd look at the footprint of Menards stores. That's a pretty close representation of the Midwestern region as a whole.
Quote from: tdindy88 on October 20, 2023, 08:16:37 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 07:53:11 PM
Maybe the bigger problem is that we don't really have a region called "The North".
History books sure mentioned "The North" a lot in the prelude to the Civil War. Arguably, "The North" would be the Midwest plus the Northeastern states. Way too broad of a region to classify as one region however.
As for the Midwest, I'd look at the footprint of Menards stores. That's a pretty close representation of the Midwestern region as a whole.
I'm not sure if you could use Menard's as a footprint or not because they have locations in Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2023, 12:06:14 PM
When you put it like that, 85% and 78% for Michigan and Ohio respectively seems too high.
Not surprising, considering my personal history. I've never been to Ohio (other than through the very southern parts on Amtrak), and the only two nights I've spent in Michigan were during the same hitchhiking trip. Meanwhile, I've lived my whole life in Illinois and Kansas.
Honestly, I'm curious to know if y'all consider the UP to be part of the Midwest. Or is it just the Mitten?
Being from Michigan and knowing a lot about the state yes I consider both peninsulas of Michigan to be in the Midwest.
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2023, 02:55:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 12:16:27 PM
Honestly, I'm curious to know if y'all consider the UP to be part of the Midwest. Or is it just the Mitten?
Yes, by virtue of being part of Michigan. But, as I've said, if anyone from Michigan - either peninsula - considers themselves to be from the Great Lakes and separates that in their mind from the Midwest, I get it.
I consider myself to be from the Midwest.
Before this forum, I had never really thought of the Great Lakes or the Great Plains to be regions of the US.
The Great Plains were just part of the Midwest.
But what to call the area between northwestern Ohio and the Eastern Seaboard? I did not have any vocabulary to say. It was a kind of no-man's-land in my mind.
FWIW, for the twelve hours or so that I spent in the UP, it didn't really seem like the Midwest to me. But, by the time I got to Paw Paw that next night, it felt like the Midwest again.
In common language down here, there is in fact a region of "the North". It pretty much encompasses anything not in the Census Bureau's South or West regions.
Here's a question that I often wonder the answer to. There are a lot of "gatekeepers" out there who will tell you the Dakotas and Nebraska etc. absolutely should not count as Midwest and are simply their own plains region. Where do these people live? In my experience, the people with strong opinions on this not only don't live in those midwestern plains region, but they don't even live in other parts of the Midwest. They tend to live in places like the Northeast.
Quote from: 1 on August 17, 2018, 09:04:24 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 17, 2018, 08:24:18 PM
AK and FL are different, and they're both in the South.
Wait, what?
I have often noticed, that it is pretty common that the postal state initials, for Alaska (AK) and Arkansas (AR) , get mixed up
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2023, 12:06:14 PM
When you put it like that, 85% and 78% for Michigan and Ohio respectively seems too high.
Not surprising, considering my personal history. I've never been to Ohio (other than through the very southern parts on Amtrak), and the only two nights I've spent in Michigan were during the same hitchhiking trip. Meanwhile, I've lived my whole life in Illinois and Kansas.
Honestly, I'm curious to know if y'all consider the UP to be part of the Midwest. Or is it just the Mitten?
I don't consider the UP, or northern Minnesota/Wisconsin to be Midwestern. Once you go north into the seemingly endless forests of pine and spruce, it feels like you're in a very different area.
Quote from: bm7 on October 21, 2023, 12:29:23 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2023, 12:06:14 PM
When you put it like that, 85% and 78% for Michigan and Ohio respectively seems too high.
Not surprising, considering my personal history. I've never been to Ohio (other than through the very southern parts on Amtrak), and the only two nights I've spent in Michigan were during the same hitchhiking trip. Meanwhile, I've lived my whole life in Illinois and Kansas.
Honestly, I'm curious to know if y'all consider the UP to be part of the Midwest. Or is it just the Mitten?
I don't consider the UP, or northern Minnesota/Wisconsin to be Midwestern. Once you go north into the seemingly endless forests of pine and spruce, it feels like you're in a very different area.
Sub-Canada?
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 01:16:47 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 20, 2023, 12:50:34 PM
Delayed goodbyes when leaving events
This ritual begins by one party slapping his thighs and exclaiming, "Welp! ..." Standing up from the couch at that point may promptly ensue—but not necessarily—though sitting back down again is still likely.
People call this Midwestern but I've definitely seen this in the South too.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 20, 2023, 11:04:32 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 19, 2023, 08:10:58 PM
Meanwhile, Cincinnati, and much of southern Ohio, for that matter - hello, Hocking Hills - feels more southern than midwestern and could pass for Kentucky or West Virginia but is worlds away from the Great Plains.
And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".
And St. Louis is obviously "Gateway to the West".
I don't think everything west of those cities is THE West.
These both feel like anachronisms of America's westward expansion. Basically anywhere west of the Appalachians was called "the West" at one point of another.
I certainly still feel in the Midwest when I'm in the U.P. and I've been all over the U.P. it's really not that much different than the northern lower peninsula. I don't know what other part of the country it would feel like. Northern Minnesota, Wisconsin and the U.P. have a lot in common.
Are there any "holes" in the Midwest similar to this statement about a hole in a different region?
Quote from: SP Cook on August 09, 2018, 12:00:48 PM
The difference between Charlotte and Atlanta is that Charlotte is a big city in the South and Atlanta is a big city surrounded by the South.
Quote from: 1 on October 21, 2023, 08:50:34 AM
Are there any "holes" in the Midwest similar to this statement about a hole in a different region?
Quote from: SP Cook on August 09, 2018, 12:00:48 PM
The difference between Charlotte and Atlanta is that Charlotte is a big city in the South and Atlanta is a big city surrounded by the South.
I lived in Atlanta for four years and that statement is 100% false in every aspect. Atlanta is a solidly Southern city unless you think "south" can only refer to poorer rural areas. Charlotte, while still at its core a southern city, is starting to get some amount of northeastern culture import from people moving down there, similar to many of the other large cities in NC. That hasn't quite happened with Atlanta yet at least to the degree it has in NC. Atlanta might be more bigger and more cosmopolitan but to suggest that means it isn't the South is just wrong.
Quote from: US 89 on October 20, 2023, 11:55:37 PM
In common language down here, there is in fact a region of "the North". It pretty much encompasses anything not in the Census Bureau's South or West regions.
Here's a question that I often wonder the answer to. There are a lot of "gatekeepers" out there who will tell you the Dakotas and Nebraska etc. absolutely should not count as Midwest and are simply their own plains region. Where do these people live? In my experience, the people with strong opinions on this not only don't live in those midwestern plains region, but they don't even live in other parts of the Midwest. They tend to live in places like the Northeast.
I imagine a lot of it is having a hard time imagining the cities of the Great Lakes (plus Columbus, Cincinatti, and Indianapolis) being in the same region as "flyover country". I have to admit, it took driving to Peoria for me to see how the Great Lakes and Great Plains are connected, since my conception of "the Midwest" was filled with lake shores and rust belt cities, not farms and small towns.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 21, 2023, 08:47:16 AM
I certainly still feel in the Midwest when I'm in the U.P. and I've been all over the U.P. it's really not that much different than the northern lower peninsula. I don't know what other part of the country it would feel like. Northern Minnesota, Wisconsin and the U.P. have a lot in common.
The western UP and northeastern Minnesota were heavily shaped by mining (though different materials) which resulted in a lot more diverse immigration patterns than other parts of those states, especially Finnish. Finnish influence is very prominent in northeastern Minnesota and in the Upper Peninsoukla.
Quote from: bm7 on October 21, 2023, 12:29:23 AMI don't consider the UP, or northern Minnesota/Wisconsin to be Midwestern. Once you go north into the seemingly endless forests of pine and spruce, it feels like you're in a very different area.
The forested areas in the northern Midwest might feel different than the farming areas in the central Midwest, but it's all still the Midwest. This is why I like to use the Census Bureau's 12-state region as the definition of the Midwest. It keeps it simple. If it's in that 12-state region, it's the Midwest. If it's outside of that 12-state region, it's not the Midwest. Otherwise, people engage in gatekeeping about what is and is not the Midwest. States in the Midwest can have different landscapes and still all be in the Midwest.
How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 22, 2023, 09:08:08 PM
How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?
Because non-Michiganders say so!
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 11:00:58 AM
And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".
Quote from: Road Hog on October 19, 2023, 08:03:58 PM
A native will tell you Arkansas is definitively southern.
As a native Arkansan, I can say that most of Arkansas is definitely southern. But I can also say that the mountainous areas are more like Appalachia and the Ozark Plateau portions of NWA are more like the midwest with all of the immigration the past 3 decades.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 20, 2023, 07:55:20 AM
Arkansas ... is tough to throw into a single bucket ... NWA feels almost midwestern in comparison with Tulsa and KC influencing it more than Little Rock.
Are you an Arkansas native? :hmmm:
Yup, my entire life. However, only lived in the western and northwestern parts, but travel to LR and Jonesboro multiple times a year to take care of onsite IT work for a client.
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2023, 09:57:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 22, 2023, 09:08:08 PM
How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?
Because non-Michiganders say so!
Well it is a part of the Midwest no matter who says it is or isn't.
The lower Peninsula is part of the Midwest and the Upper Peninsula goes farther west than the lower Peninsula does and borders Wisconsin what part of the country do you think Wisconsin's in?
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 12:24:13 PM
A poll was just conducted, and out of 11,000 respondents...
(https://i.imgur.com/J0fYAT1.png)
https://www.kcur.org/news/2023-10-18/where-is-midwest-states-usa-definition-middle-west
Someone has responded to this map. They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ (https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ)
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 08:54:41 AM
Someone has responded to this map. They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ (https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ)
As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 23, 2023, 08:14:44 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2023, 09:57:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 22, 2023, 09:08:08 PM
How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?
Because non-Michiganders say so!
Well it is a part of the Midwest no matter who says it is or isn't.
No one is disputing that it is technically part of the Midwest (at least according to the Census Bureau's definition) by virtue of being part of Michigan, but it was part of a more nuanced conversation about the fact that 15% of Michiganders say they don't live in the Midwest.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 23, 2023, 10:06:08 AM
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 08:54:41 AM
Someone has responded to this map. They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ (https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ)
As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.
No. While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City. I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains." It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density. While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000. You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.
And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? :D
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 10:34:46 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 23, 2023, 10:06:08 AM
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 08:54:41 AM
Someone has responded to this map. They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ (https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ)
As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.
No. While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City. I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains." It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density. While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000. You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.
And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? :D
Sure, sure. But, at least for me, population density doesn't make any difference to a culture. A little town in central Kansas is going to feel an awful lot like a little town in central Indiana.
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 10:34:46 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 23, 2023, 10:06:08 AM
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 08:54:41 AM
Someone has responded to this map. They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ (https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ)
As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.
No. While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City. I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains." It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density. While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000. You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.
And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? :D
MO is its own crazy ball of wax when it comes to which region it should be in.
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2023, 10:38:59 AM
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 10:34:46 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 23, 2023, 10:06:08 AM
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 08:54:41 AM
Someone has responded to this map. They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ (https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ)
As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.
No. While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City. I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains." It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density. While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000. You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.
And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? :D
MO is its own crazy ball of wax when it comes to which region it should be in.
Agreed. If I were to exclude a state between the two, Missouri has parts of it that are was less Midwestern than anything in Kansas.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 23, 2023, 08:16:13 AM
The lower Peninsula is part of the Midwest and the Upper Peninsula goes farther west than the lower Peninsula does and borders Wisconsin what part of the country do you think Wisconsin's in?
As I said in my previous post, I don't personally consider the northern part of Wisconsin (if I had to pick a line, I'd say that northern is anything north of Merrill or Marinette) to be in the Midwest. The rest of the state is still Midwestern.
Quote from: webny99 on October 23, 2023, 10:26:00 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 23, 2023, 08:14:44 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2023, 09:57:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 22, 2023, 09:08:08 PM
How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?
Because non-Michiganders say so!
Well it is a part of the Midwest no matter who says it is or isn't.
No one is disputing that it is technically part of the Midwest (at least according to the Census Bureau's definition) by virtue of being part of Michigan, but it was part of a more nuanced conversation about the fact that 15% of Michiganders say they don't live in the Midwest.
There is a term in psephology that I don't quite remember, and I'm having a hard time looking up, that basically refers to a small percentage of every poll's respondents whose answers are total nonsense. This is because the respondent doesn't correctly understand the question, because they are not competent to answer it, or because they are straight up trolling the pollster.
Some professional pollsters have caught onto this and include calibration questions to flag bad respondents and not count those responses. For example, one poll asked respondents "Have you ever been decapitated?" 4% said yes, they had.
Anyway, keep in mind that some of the "no" responses in clearly-Midwestern states may be a result of that.
Quote from: webny99 on October 23, 2023, 10:26:00 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 23, 2023, 08:14:44 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2023, 09:57:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 22, 2023, 09:08:08 PM
How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?
Because non-Michiganders say so!
Well it is a part of the Midwest no matter who says it is or isn't.
No one is disputing that it is technically part of the Midwest (at least according to the Census Bureau's definition) by virtue of being part of Michigan, but it was part of a more nuanced conversation about the fact that 15% of Michiganders say they don't live in the Midwest.
Well that 15% of Michiganians (I hate the term Michiganders due to the fact that recent governor signed it into law that refers to residents as Michiganders and we don't need a governor deciding what we get called) is only 1.5 million people of the state. I live in Saginaw which is in the middle of the state and I consider myself in the Midwest and I've actually asked several different people since this post has been going on and they agree with me. The U.P. is more Midwest than the L.P. is. Like in Ironwood I would indeed feel like I was in the Midwest. It's the Upper Midwest and Michigan has never been conisdered an east coast state so I dunno it's an opinion thing I guess but I just don't see how we're not in the Midwest.
Quote from: bm7 on October 23, 2023, 12:11:05 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 23, 2023, 08:16:13 AM
The lower Peninsula is part of the Midwest and the Upper Peninsula goes farther west than the lower Peninsula does and borders Wisconsin what part of the country do you think Wisconsin's in?
As I said in my previous post, I don't personally consider the northern part of Wisconsin (if I had to pick a line, I'd say that northern is anything north of Merrill or Marinette) to be in the Midwest. The rest of the state is still Midwestern.
The whole state is in the Midwest. The terrain of the area doesn't make it any less of the Midwest than somewhere in Illinois or Iowa.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 23, 2023, 12:23:21 PM
Quote from: bm7 on October 23, 2023, 12:11:05 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 23, 2023, 08:16:13 AM
The lower Peninsula is part of the Midwest and the Upper Peninsula goes farther west than the lower Peninsula does and borders Wisconsin what part of the country do you think Wisconsin's in?
As I said in my previous post, I don't personally consider the northern part of Wisconsin (if I had to pick a line, I'd say that northern is anything north of Merrill or Marinette) to be in the Midwest. The rest of the state is still Midwestern.
The whole state is in the Midwest. The terrain of the area doesn't make it any less of the Midwest than somewhere in Illinois or Iowa.
Agreed. Up North in Minnesota isn't all that different culturally to someone who lives in Albert Lea. Either way, you're stuck being a Vikings fan and you go to the State Fair every year and look at butter sculptures.
If Minnesota annexed part of Ontario, would those new areas become Midwestern?
Quote from: bm7 on October 23, 2023, 12:56:27 PM
If Minnesota annexed part of Ontario, would those new areas become Midwestern?
Canada has different cultural traditions than the U.S., even in border areas. So, they wouldn't immediately, no. Over time? Sure, possibly.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 23, 2023, 12:20:21 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 23, 2023, 10:26:00 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 23, 2023, 08:14:44 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2023, 09:57:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 22, 2023, 09:08:08 PM
How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?
Because non-Michiganders say so!
Well it is a part of the Midwest no matter who says it is or isn't.
No one is disputing that it is technically part of the Midwest (at least according to the Census Bureau's definition) by virtue of being part of Michigan, but it was part of a more nuanced conversation about the fact that 15% of Michiganders say they don't live in the Midwest.
There is a term in psephology that I don't quite remember, and I'm having a hard time looking up, that basically refers to a small percentage of every poll's respondents whose answers are total nonsense. This is because the respondent doesn't correctly understand the question, because they are not competent to answer it, or because they are straight up trolling the pollster.
Some professional pollsters have caught onto this and include calibration questions to flag bad respondents and not count those responses. For example, one poll asked respondents "Have you ever been decapitated?" 4% said yes, they had.
Anyway, keep in mind that some of the "no" responses in clearly-Midwestern states may be a result of that.
That is fair, but even if ~5% of the responses are throwaways, we can't assume that
all of those respondents said that Michigan isn't part of the Midwest. If a respondent was just selecting responses at random, for example, that becomes a 50/50 proposition, not a guarantee they'll reject the Midwest. Also, polls are inexact by nature, so they tend to be more useful for comparative purposes (to compare to a baseline, a prior poll, or one's own expectations) rather than for technical purposes (exactly 23 random, possibly unrepresentative people in Leelanau County believe Michigan isn't part of the Midwest).
In that context, 5% is a relatively small amount, and when applied to the entire poll (i.e. there are throwaway responses in all regions), we can see that approximately 15% of Michiganders said they don't live in the Midwest, while only about 4% of Iowans said the same. It's fair to conclude that an 11% difference isn't all because of throwaway responses, and that, in fact, there are some Michiganders that don't believe they live in the Midwest. That's where cultural, historical, geographical, and any number of other factors may come into play.
And while I'm not disputing that Michigan is in the Midwest by technical definition, I think it's worth digging into some of those factors and the nuance surrounding them. There's not much value to the poll if your only use for it is to tell what percentage of people in the state are wrong about where they live by Census Bureau definition. Maybe it isn't just that simple and that's why the pollster thought it was a question worth asking.. and why whoever started this thread thought it was worth starting, for that matter.
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2023, 10:38:59 AM
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 10:34:46 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 23, 2023, 10:06:08 AM
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 08:54:41 AM
Someone has responded to this map. They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ (https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ)
As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.
No. While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City. I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains." It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density. While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000. You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.
And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? :D
MO is its own crazy ball of wax when it comes to which region it should be in.
No doubt. I like to say Missouri is the intersection of the Midwest, Great Plains, South, and West.
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 10:34:46 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 23, 2023, 10:06:08 AM
Quote from: fhmiii on October 23, 2023, 08:54:41 AM
Someone has responded to this map. They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ (https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ)
As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.
No. While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City. I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains." It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density. While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000. You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.
And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? :D
1. I grew up fifty miles east of the KS/CO state line, and I estimate that approximately zero people in the whole county thought they
didn't live in the Midwest. I'll take their word over that of someone in another state.
2. Please list all of the "plenty such counties in Kansas" with a population of less than 1000.
3. By my count, there are three total counties in all of the Dakotas with a population of less than 1000.
Quote from: kphoger on October 23, 2023, 03:50:00 PMPlease list all of the "plenty such counties in Kansas" with a population of less than 1000.
Spoiler alert: the number of such counties is zero. Greeley, the least populous, has 1,223 people.
Quote from: index on October 19, 2023, 09:22:12 PM
My personal definition:
(https://i.imgur.com/gvExlMd.png)
I mostly agree with this map. Except maybe add a few more counties in West Virginia to the Midwest-influenced column. Monongalia, Preston and Marion Counties in WV and Greene County, PA to that column, and those counties on the Ohio River (at least most of them) are Midwestern and Appalachian.
You could plop some of those cities like Parkersburg, Huntington, and Point Pleasant in northeast or northwest Ohio very easily with their industry.
I think another category needs to be added for Oklahoma. Oklahoma City and Tulsa are way more midwestern than those Ohio River counties in Kentucky. Other than maybe a little more influence from oil in Tulsa, it feels almost identical to Lincoln or Omaha.
Those southern Missouri counties I would move to "Midwest-influenced South". They do not at all feel like northern Missouri.
Also, as far as I am concerned, the prevalence of a grid of section-line farm roads is a major contributor to whether a place "feels" midwestern. Oklahoma and the northern Plains have that in spades just like Iowa/Illinois/Indiana/etc do. Places further west do too but their grids are a lot less consistent due to either terrain or a climate that's too dry to be conducive to much farming activity.
Quote from: bugo on October 19, 2023, 03:49:17 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on August 17, 2018, 10:04:52 AM
But likewise many "southern" and "Ozark" places follow the Cardinals similarly.
I am originally from west central Arkansas, and now I live in northeastern Oklahoma. Both regions are solidly in Cardinals country. I used to work in a gas station in Broken Arrow, and I saw customers wearing Cardinals apparel all the time. The most common sports team apparel worn by customers was the Oklahoma Sooners, but the Cardinals were probably in second place. My grandfather, a native of Big Fork, Arkansas, was a gigantic Cardinals fan, which rubbed off on my sister and me.
I recently took a tour of Busch Stadium, and our tour guide said that until 1955, the St. Louis Cardinals were the furthest south and west MLB team. He claimed that because of this, the US south and west of St Louis became Cardinals country. Despite the league expanding westward since that time, being a fan of the Cardinals has remained a generational tradition for many in those areas.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on October 23, 2023, 11:10:52 PM
Quote from: bugo on October 19, 2023, 03:49:17 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on August 17, 2018, 10:04:52 AM
But likewise many "southern" and "Ozark" places follow the Cardinals similarly.
I am originally from west central Arkansas, and now I live in northeastern Oklahoma. Both regions are solidly in Cardinals country. I used to work in a gas station in Broken Arrow, and I saw customers wearing Cardinals apparel all the time. The most common sports team apparel worn by customers was the Oklahoma Sooners, but the Cardinals were probably in second place. My grandfather, a native of Big Fork, Arkansas, was a gigantic Cardinals fan, which rubbed off on my sister and me.
I recently took a tour of Busch Stadium, and our tour guide said that until 1955, the St. Louis Cardinals were the furthest south and west MLB team. He claimed that because of this, the US south and west of St Louis became Cardinals country. Despite the league expanding westward since that time, being a fan of the Cardinals has remained a generational tradition for many in those areas.
I thought that was due to KMOX
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 23, 2023, 12:30:16 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 23, 2023, 12:23:21 PM
Quote from: bm7 on October 23, 2023, 12:11:05 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 23, 2023, 08:16:13 AM
The lower Peninsula is part of the Midwest and the Upper Peninsula goes farther west than the lower Peninsula does and borders Wisconsin what part of the country do you think Wisconsin's in?
As I said in my previous post, I don't personally consider the northern part of Wisconsin (if I had to pick a line, I'd say that northern is anything north of Merrill or Marinette) to be in the Midwest. The rest of the state is still Midwestern.
The whole state is in the Midwest. The terrain of the area doesn't make it any less of the Midwest than somewhere in Illinois or Iowa.
Agreed. Up North in Minnesota isn't all that different culturally to someone who lives in Albert Lea. Either way, you're stuck being a Vikings fan and you go to the State Fair every year and look at butter sculptures.
Up North in Michigan, Up North in Wisconsin and Up North in Minnesota are very similar. Lots of lakes and forests for all three. I haven't been Up North in Minnesota before but my grandfather was born in Thief River Falls I'd love vacation there. But you are correct on the assumption there.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 23, 2023, 04:01:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 23, 2023, 03:50:00 PMPlease list all of the "plenty such counties in Kansas" with a population of less than 1000.
Spoiler alert: the number of such counties is zero. Greeley, the least populous, has 1,223 people.
Yeah there are only about 30-40 counties with a population under 1,000. I think most of them are in Nebraska and Colorado.
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2023, 11:19:15 PM
Quote from: ozarkman417 on October 23, 2023, 11:10:52 PM
Quote from: bugo on October 19, 2023, 03:49:17 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on August 17, 2018, 10:04:52 AM
But likewise many "southern" and "Ozark" places follow the Cardinals similarly.
I am originally from west central Arkansas, and now I live in northeastern Oklahoma. Both regions are solidly in Cardinals country. I used to work in a gas station in Broken Arrow, and I saw customers wearing Cardinals apparel all the time. The most common sports team apparel worn by customers was the Oklahoma Sooners, but the Cardinals were probably in second place. My grandfather, a native of Big Fork, Arkansas, was a gigantic Cardinals fan, which rubbed off on my sister and me.
I recently took a tour of Busch Stadium, and our tour guide said that until 1955, the St. Louis Cardinals were the furthest south and west MLB team. He claimed that because of this, the US south and west of St Louis became Cardinals country. Despite the league expanding westward since that time, being a fan of the Cardinals has remained a generational tradition for many in those areas.
I thought that was due to KMOX
KMOX certainly helped.
Quote from: Sctvhound on October 23, 2023, 10:37:41 PM
Quote from: index on October 19, 2023, 09:22:12 PM
My personal definition:
(https://i.imgur.com/gvExlMd.png)
I mostly agree with this map. Except maybe add a few more counties in West Virginia to the Midwest-influenced column. Monongalia, Preston and Marion Counties in WV and Greene County, PA to that column, and those counties on the Ohio River (at least most of them) are Midwestern and Appalachian.
You could plop some of those cities like Parkersburg, Huntington, and Point Pleasant in northeast or northwest Ohio very easily with their industry.
I have a really hard time accepting the hard line between Kansas and Oklahoma. Ponca City (OK) is just not really that different from Winfield (KS).
Now, while I grew up in one of the Kansas counties labeled "Midwestern and Western", and while nobody who actually lived in that county considered it to be "Western" at all, I am OK with calling it on the map. Why? Because I think probably some of them
should have considered it slightly Western. I mean, some of them were cowboys, after all.
I think the line in southern Illinois is drawn really well. The difference between, say, Williamson County and Johnson County (at least the southern half of it) is quite noticeable. Likewise, Saline and Pope. That distinction is spot-on.
The 100 least populated counties in the US:
(https://i.imgur.com/cLFG61W.png)
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 25, 2023, 10:57:29 AM
The 100 least populated counties in the US:
That map weirdly shows too many lakes. It's distracting for a national county map.
Anyway, no surprise most of them fall west of the 100th Meridian and east of the Rocky Mountains. No water = no people.
I'm most intrigued by the Mississippi county. Presumably what's left from a bygone era.
For me, I tend to personally define the Midwest as these states:
Ohio
Indiana
Illinois
Michigan
Wisconsin
(Maybe) Kentucky, though I think I tend to think of that one more as part of the "southeast". It certainly seems to be split between the Southeast and Midwest.
Arkansas/Oklahoma and the states north of them are the Plains States.
Quote from: webny99 on October 26, 2023, 04:11:38 PM
I'm most intrigued by the Mississippi county. Presumably what's left from a bygone era.
The one in Georgia sticks out more to me.
Quote from: Takumi on October 26, 2023, 08:29:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 26, 2023, 04:11:38 PM
I'm most intrigued by the Mississippi county. Presumably what's left from a bygone era.
The one in Georgia sticks out more to me.
That's Taliaferro County (pronounced "Tolliver", like Oliver with a T in front of it - yes, really), which has one of the highest traffic ticket revenues per capita of any county in the US.
Quote from: US 89 on October 26, 2023, 09:54:00 PM
Quote from: Takumi on October 26, 2023, 08:29:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 26, 2023, 04:11:38 PM
I'm most intrigued by the Mississippi county. Presumably what's left from a bygone era.
The one in Georgia sticks out more to me.
That's Taliaferro County (pronounced "Tolliver", like Oliver with a T in front of it - yes, really), which has one of the highest traffic ticket revenues per capita of any county in the US.
It's also tiny. You could probably fit it three times inside the Mississippi county.
Quote from: webny99 on October 26, 2023, 11:41:34 PM
Quote from: US 89 on October 26, 2023, 09:54:00 PM
Quote from: Takumi on October 26, 2023, 08:29:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 26, 2023, 04:11:38 PM
I'm most intrigued by the Mississippi county. Presumably what's left from a bygone era.
The one in Georgia sticks out more to me.
That's Taliaferro County (pronounced "Tolliver", like Oliver with a T in front of it - yes, really), which has one of the highest traffic ticket revenues per capita of any county in the US.
It's also tiny. You could probably fit it three times inside the Mississippi county.
Georgia has a lot of small counties, for a number of reasons. One is that Georgia had a tradition that counties should be small enough for anyone to ride a horse to the county seat and back home in a day. But more recently, they had the county unit system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_unit_system), which was basically a version of the Electoral College for statewide elections that was even more disproportionately in favor of rural areas. Under that system, the top 8 counties by population got 6 unit votes, the next 30 got 4 unit votes, and the remainder got 2, awarded on a winner-take-all by county basis. Of course, this was incredibly unfair - even back in 1900, Fulton County (where Atlanta is) was almost 15 times bigger than Taliaferro, yet it had only had 3 times as much voting power. A majority of unit votes were controlled by less than a third of the state population. But because rural counties had such a huge power in statewide elections, it benefitted them to split out into as many counties as they reasonably could.
The Supreme Court declared that unconstitutional in 1963, but the counties have stayed, and it's honestly surprising to me there aren't more Georgia counties on this list. But the state does have a pretty large rural population even by eastern standards, which must be just enough to offset the small-county effects.
Wait, surprised there aren't more Georgia counties that think they're Midwest? Sounds just like total geographic ignorance on their part.
I didn't think I lived in redneck country. This was taken in Houghton Lake, Michigan.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231027/24d6824f4cb7747e568e0073590bc414.jpg)
Maybe I'm just missing it. What's redneck about that? A camo hat?
I'm guessing it's the fact that the guy is parked sideways in the gas station.
Quote from: bm7 on October 27, 2023, 11:07:55 AM
I'm guessing it's the fact that the guy is parked sideways in the gas station.
Ha. Somehow I missed that. Glanced and the column just looked like a sideways pump.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 27, 2023, 10:15:16 AM
Maybe I'm just missing it. What's redneck about that? A camo hat?
Look at the pump and where the car is parked.
This is the station that the picture was taken at.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3028043,-84.6445456,3a,15y,99.14h,88.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skHdE3X9XpHM__NgUWEVXmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2023, 11:18:23 AM
This is the station that the picture was taken at.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3028043,-84.6445456,3a,15y,99.14h,88.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skHdE3X9XpHM__NgUWEVXmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Actually I would say the pumps are sideways. They should be turned 90 degrees like any other gas station, to make the pumps more convenient to access and prevent the cars at the middle pumps from getting blocked in.
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 11:24:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2023, 11:18:23 AM
This is the station that the picture was taken at.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3028043,-84.6445456,3a,15y,99.14h,88.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skHdE3X9XpHM__NgUWEVXmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Actually I would say the pumps are sideways. They should be turned 90 degrees like any other gas station, to make the pumps more convenient to access and prevent the cars at the middle pumps from getting blocked in.
I think you're seeing it incorrectly just like I did.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 27, 2023, 11:27:45 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 11:24:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2023, 11:18:23 AM
This is the station that the picture was taken at.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3028043,-84.6445456,3a,15y,99.14h,88.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skHdE3X9XpHM__NgUWEVXmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Actually I would say the pumps are sideways. They should be turned 90 degrees like any other gas station, to make the pumps more convenient to access and prevent the cars at the middle pumps from getting blocked in.
I think you're seeing it incorrectly just like I did.
No, I figured out what's going on in Flint's image, but when looking at the street view link, the pumps are sideways to how they would be at any other gas station. Look at how inconvenient it would be to try and use the pump between the red Ram and black Audi. Redneck or not, I can't fault the driver here.
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 11:37:33 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 27, 2023, 11:27:45 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 11:24:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2023, 11:18:23 AM
This is the station that the picture was taken at.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3028043,-84.6445456,3a,15y,99.14h,88.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skHdE3X9XpHM__NgUWEVXmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Actually I would say the pumps are sideways. They should be turned 90 degrees like any other gas station, to make the pumps more convenient to access and prevent the cars at the middle pumps from getting blocked in.
I think you're seeing it incorrectly just like I did.
No, I figured out what's going on in Flint's image, but when looking at the street view link, the pumps are sideways to how they would be at any other gas station. Look at how inconvenient it would be to try and use the pump between the red Ram and black Audi. Redneck or not, I can't fault the driver here.
I can. The pump is open on either side.
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 11:37:33 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 27, 2023, 11:27:45 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 11:24:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2023, 11:18:23 AM
This is the station that the picture was taken at.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3028043,-84.6445456,3a,15y,99.14h,88.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skHdE3X9XpHM__NgUWEVXmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Actually I would say the pumps are sideways. They should be turned 90 degrees like any other gas station, to make the pumps more convenient to access and prevent the cars at the middle pumps from getting blocked in.
I think you're seeing it incorrectly just like I did.
No, I figured out what's going on in Flint's image, but when looking at the street view link, the pumps are sideways to how they would be at any other gas station. Look at how inconvenient it would be to try and use the pump between the red Ram and black Audi. Redneck or not, I can't fault the driver here.
The pumps are not turned sideways to how they are in most of the country unless I'm misunderstanding you, which could be the case. I know there are pumps where the display, touch pad, etc. is on the front and the pumps are on the sides, but this is not common at all west of the Mississippi at least.
I'm not sure I see what the problem is. There are a lot of gas stations in Michigan that have pumps designed like that.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 27, 2023, 11:54:37 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 11:37:33 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 27, 2023, 11:27:45 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 11:24:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2023, 11:18:23 AM
This is the station that the picture was taken at.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3028043,-84.6445456,3a,15y,99.14h,88.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skHdE3X9XpHM__NgUWEVXmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Actually I would say the pumps are sideways. They should be turned 90 degrees like any other gas station, to make the pumps more convenient to access and prevent the cars at the middle pumps from getting blocked in.
I think you're seeing it incorrectly just like I did.
No, I figured out what's going on in Flint's image, but when looking at the street view link, the pumps are sideways to how they would be at any other gas station. Look at how inconvenient it would be to try and use the pump between the red Ram and black Audi. Redneck or not, I can't fault the driver here.
The pumps are not turned sideways to how they are in most of the country unless I'm misunderstanding you, which could be the case. I know there are pumps where the display, touch pad, etc. is on the front and the pumps are on the sides, but this is not common at all west of the Mississippi at least.
When I say pumps I mean the
entire units, base and all. The units look perfectly normal, but they should be rotated 90 degrees,
like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/13n4McGAiBXhES3q6).
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 12:05:28 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 27, 2023, 11:54:37 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 11:37:33 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 27, 2023, 11:27:45 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 11:24:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2023, 11:18:23 AM
This is the station that the picture was taken at.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3028043,-84.6445456,3a,15y,99.14h,88.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skHdE3X9XpHM__NgUWEVXmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Actually I would say the pumps are sideways. They should be turned 90 degrees like any other gas station, to make the pumps more convenient to access and prevent the cars at the middle pumps from getting blocked in.
I think you're seeing it incorrectly just like I did.
No, I figured out what's going on in Flint's image, but when looking at the street view link, the pumps are sideways to how they would be at any other gas station. Look at how inconvenient it would be to try and use the pump between the red Ram and black Audi. Redneck or not, I can't fault the driver here.
The pumps are not turned sideways to how they are in most of the country unless I'm misunderstanding you, which could be the case. I know there are pumps where the display, touch pad, etc. is on the front and the pumps are on the sides, but this is not common at all west of the Mississippi at least.
When I say pumps I mean the entire units, base and all. The units look perfectly normal, but they should be rotated 90 degrees, like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/13n4McGAiBXhES3q6).
You make it sound like Flint's station is unique, when its parallel configuration is very common.
There is nothing that necessitated that driver to fill up perpendicular to the pump.
The only reason that the parallel configuration is a PITA is because carmakers can't figure out how to standardize which side of the car the tank is on.
The other Marathon station closer to the US-127 interchange is the same way.
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2023, 12:18:20 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 12:05:28 PM
When I say pumps I mean the entire units, base and all. The units look perfectly normal, but they should be rotated 90 degrees, like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/13n4McGAiBXhES3q6).
You make it sound like Flint's station is unique, when its parallel configuration is very common.
There is nothing that necessitated that driver to fill up perpendicular to the pump.
Is it common for
four pumps in a row? It sure isn't around here. I've only ever seen two in a row when they require parallel parking.
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 12:41:51 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2023, 12:18:20 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 12:05:28 PM
When I say pumps I mean the entire units, base and all. The units look perfectly normal, but they should be rotated 90 degrees, like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/13n4McGAiBXhES3q6).
You make it sound like Flint's station is unique, when its parallel configuration is very common.
There is nothing that necessitated that driver to fill up perpendicular to the pump.
Is it common for four pumps in a row? It sure isn't around here. I've only ever seen two in a row when they require parallel parking.
How about six? (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4229551,-105.0328095,3a,75y,166.96h,90.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjTpJOcKndYO5R_TDy7Sa-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGYPVk1M/Gas-Station.png)
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 12:41:51 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2023, 12:18:20 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 12:05:28 PM
When I say pumps I mean the entire units, base and all. The units look perfectly normal, but they should be rotated 90 degrees, like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/13n4McGAiBXhES3q6).
You make it sound like Flint's station is unique, when its parallel configuration is very common.
There is nothing that necessitated that driver to fill up perpendicular to the pump.
Is it common for four pumps in a row? It sure isn't around here. I've only ever seen two in a row when they require parallel parking.
I'll have to find one but I'm sure it won't take me that long.
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 12:41:51 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2023, 12:18:20 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 12:05:28 PM
When I say pumps I mean the entire units, base and all. The units look perfectly normal, but they should be rotated 90 degrees, like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/13n4McGAiBXhES3q6).
You make it sound like Flint's station is unique, when its parallel configuration is very common.
There is nothing that necessitated that driver to fill up perpendicular to the pump.
Is it common for four pumps in a row? It sure isn't around here. I've only ever seen two in a row when they require parallel parking.
Three is very common. For example,
this QuikTrip in Wichita (https://maps.app.goo.gl/RRCvgDFKxGFkwsHW7), or
this random Casey's in Missouri (https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZmBseM3tyf4ExuYq9).
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 27, 2023, 12:45:44 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 12:41:51 PM
Is it common for four pumps in a row? It sure isn't around here. I've only ever seen two in a row when they require parallel parking.
How about six? (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4229551,-105.0328095,3a,75y,166.96h,90.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjTpJOcKndYO5R_TDy7Sa-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
Wow, that is gnarly.
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 27, 2023, 12:45:44 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2023, 12:41:51 PM
Is it common for four pumps in a row? It sure isn't around here. I've only ever seen two in a row when they require parallel parking.
How about six? (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4229551,-105.0328095,3a,75y,166.96h,90.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjTpJOcKndYO5R_TDy7Sa-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
Wow, that is gnarly.
Last time I stopped for gas there, there was an exotic car club all lined up getting gas - Lambos, Ferraris, McLarens, Lotus. It was kinda crazy.
I personally don't like configurations that require me to parallel-park to access a free pump in the middle when the ones at the ends are in use, but there are bigger things to worry about. Generally, my priority when pulling up to refuel is to position the filler opening directly opposite the pump handle so I can secure the best possible hose dress.
At Murdock and Broadway in Wichita, there used to be a QuikTrip that underwent remodelling in the mid-2010's to upgrade it to the current-generation configuration for the convenience store and to convert the pumps from parallel to perpendicular layout.
Before condition, July 2015: 10 pumps in parallel configuration (one rank with five filling bays on each side) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6970651,-97.3356222,3a,75y,86.98h,93.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sh-W_yWls419qsLz0ffVsAA!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu)
After condition, May 2017: 16 pumps in perpendicular configuration (four ranks, each with two filling bays on each side) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6970888,-97.3356199,3a,75y,86.98h,93.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1siVdS1QB3zyWLV_ue9v6KUQ!2e0!5s20170501T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu)
However, in order to accomplish this, QuikTrip had to essentially double the size of its parcel at this location by buying the land underneath several houses on the west side of Topeka (next street to the east) just south of Murdock. These dwellings are visible in July 2011 StreetView imagery but all of them had been cleared by August 2015, except for a Victorian mansion that looks like it is in the early stages of being moved.
I suspect that similar configuration changes elsewhere fail to survive feasibility analysis, despite according more closely with customer preference, for reasons connected to site constraints (zoning, neighbors being willing to sell) and expected cashflow (less scope to grow footfall and revenue per customer within established neighborhoods). This QuikTrip is sort of an exception that proves the rule, since the chain sold it to JumpStart (which has bottom-feeder status in the Wichita area) after the security guard for the attached convenience store was fatally shot in the face in May 2021 (https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article280754465.html).
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 27, 2023, 02:33:34 PM
This QuikTrip is sort of an exception that proves the rule, since the chain sold it to JumpStart (which has bottom-feeder status in the Wichita area) after the security guard for the attached convenience store was fatally shot in the face in May 2021 (https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article280754465.html).
A friend of ours used to work at various QT locations in Wichita. My, the stories he used to tell about that location...
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 27, 2023, 02:33:34 PM
the best possible hose dress
https://www.sanssoucie.ca/store/regenerateleannedress
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2023, 10:01:04 AM
I didn't think I lived in redneck country. This was taken in Houghton Lake, Michigan.
He's like trading paint with the support column, so it's like how does a person think that's fine? Wow.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 25, 2023, 10:57:29 AM
The 100 least populated counties in the US:
It just so happens that I made a similar map a few weeks ago. Here's every county in the United States with a population of less than 5000:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxZv8zM5/Counties-With-Populations-Under-5000.png) (https://postimg.cc/vgntpW3H)
One of the things that surprised me most while making this is how consistently the counties in western Kansas fall into the 2000-2999 range.
I also noticed that these counties form a near-continuous band from Mexico to Canada, with only a single-county gap in Texas.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 24, 2023, 09:36:00 AM
Yeah there are only about 30-40 counties with a population under 1,000. I think most of them are in Nebraska and Colorado.
Out of the 37 counties with populations under 1000, 12 of them are in Nebraska. Texas is next with 8 counties under 1000.
I'm surprised at how many states don't have counties with less than 5,000 people in them.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 31, 2023, 01:24:11 AM
I'm surprised at how many states don't have counties with less than 5,000 people in them.
Indiana's smallest county is just under 6,000, so it's close.
Michigan just has one county under 5,000 in population. It's the most remote county in the state as well.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 31, 2023, 01:24:11 AM
I'm surprised at how many states don't have counties with less than 5,000 people in them.
Which states in particular? There aren't many outside the Northeast (and Arizona, whose counties are massive).
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 31, 2023, 07:08:33 AM
Indiana's smallest county is just under 6,000, so it's close.
New York should have had an easy one, but Hamilton County almost impossibly grew by 5.6% from 2010-2020 to just eke over 5,000 (2020 Census pop. 5,107). Given the concerns about Census data in NY and the overall trend of rural upstate counties losing population, I couldn't take issue with putting it in the 4000-4999 category.
But Hamilton is also the only New York county that comes close. Schuyler is next-closest at 17,898, and no other county is under 20k.
Illinois is close to more .There is occasional talk of consolidation.
Next time anyone thinks there needs to be anything more than a Denver interstate...pull out that map.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 31, 2023, 01:24:11 AM
I'm surprised at how many states don't have counties with less than 5,000 people in them.
Agreed.
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2023, 09:43:09 AM
Which states in particular? There aren't many outside the Northeast (and Arizona, whose counties are massive).
For me, it's how few are in the cluster of IA-MO-IL-IN-KY-TN. I expected there to be a lot more sparsely-population pockets in those states—especially IN and KY, considering how geographically small the counties are.
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2023, 11:30:15 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 31, 2023, 01:24:11 AM
I'm surprised at how many states don't have counties with less than 5,000 people in them.
Agreed.
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2023, 09:43:09 AM
Which states in particular? There aren't many outside the Northeast (and Arizona, whose counties are massive).
For me, it's how few are in the cluster of IA-MO-IL-IN-KY-TN. I expected there to be a lot more sparsely-population pockets in those states—especially IN and KY, considering how geographically small the counties are.
Indiana has a lot of counties in the 6k to 17k range. The two least populated counties are under 170 sq mi and are the two that are under 7k population, but the rest of the counties under 17k in population are mostly > 300 sq mi.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 31, 2023, 11:51:06 AM
Indiana has a lot of counties in the 6k to 17k range. The two least populated counties are under 170 sq mi and are the two that are under 7k population, but the rest of the counties under 17k in population are mostly > 300 sq mi.
But, to me, that's still small. The county I grew up in (pop. < 3000) is 1070 mi². Here in Kansas, there's only one county smaller than 300 mi², and it's the one with Kansas City in it.
But moreover, I was surprised there weren't more pop. < 3000in Indiana when compared to Illinois, because the median land area of Illinois's counties is almost 30% larger than that of Indiana's.
Allen County is the largest county in Indiana in land area. At 657 square miles in Michigan that county would be the 32nd largest, roughly the same size as Presque Isle County.
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2023, 12:33:27 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 31, 2023, 11:51:06 AM
Indiana has a lot of counties in the 6k to 17k range. The two least populated counties are under 170 sq mi and are the two that are under 7k population, but the rest of the counties under 17k in population are mostly > 300 sq mi.
But, to me, that's still small. The county I grew up in (pop. < 3000) is 1070 mi². Here in Kansas, there's only one county smaller than 300 mi², and it's the one with Kansas City in it.
But moreover, I was surprised there weren't more pop. < 3000in Indiana when compared to Illinois, because the median land area of Illinois's counties is almost 30% larger than that of Indiana's.
Indiana's population density is 5x that of Kansas. Only six of Indiana's counties have a population density less than Kansas' statewide figure.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 31, 2023, 01:14:04 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2023, 12:33:27 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 31, 2023, 11:51:06 AM
Indiana has a lot of counties in the 6k to 17k range. The two least populated counties are under 170 sq mi and are the two that are under 7k population, but the rest of the counties under 17k in population are mostly > 300 sq mi.
But, to me, that's still small. The county I grew up in (pop. < 3000) is 1070 mi². Here in Kansas, there's only one county smaller than 300 mi², and it's the one with Kansas City in it.
But moreover, I was surprised there weren't more pop. < 3000in Indiana when compared to Illinois, because the median land area of Illinois's counties is almost 30% larger than that of Indiana's.
Indiana's population density is 5x that of Kansas. Only six of Indiana's counties have a population density less than Kansas' statewide figure.
I think what I wasn't fully considering is how much closer together communities are there.
So, for example, the fifth-least-populous county in Kansas (Hodgeman) has its county seat in Jetmore, pop. 867. And the fifth-least populous county in Indiana (Martin) has its county seat in Shoals, pop. 677. But Hodgeman County pretty much just has one other community in it at all—two if you're feeling generous—whereas Martin County has several. The largest of those several others is Loogootee, which is under 3000, but I wasn't appreciating how much all the other communities can add up, because I was erroneously assuming only two or three communities per county in the least-populated ones.
Hey, is thinking about your home area in terms of counties a Midwest-specific or Midwest-defining thing? Or is it not universal across the Midwest, or is it common outside the Midwest as well? A county-centric mindset is pretty prevalent in these parts, but it seemed somewhat less so when I lived in Illinois.
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2023, 01:40:00 PM
Hey, is thinking about your home area in terms of counties a Midwest-specific or Midwest-defining thing? Or is it not universal across the Midwest, or is it common outside the Midwest as well? A county-centric mindset is pretty prevalent in these parts, but it seemed somewhat less so when I lived in Illinois.
I don't think it's a Midwest thing. Texas is the first state I think of if you ask about county mindset.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 31, 2023, 01:59:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2023, 01:40:00 PM
Hey, is thinking about your home area in terms of counties a Midwest-specific or Midwest-defining thing? Or is it not universal across the Midwest, or is it common outside the Midwest as well? A county-centric mindset is pretty prevalent in these parts, but it seemed somewhat less so when I lived in Illinois.
I don't think it's a Midwest thing. Texas is the first state I think of if you ask about county mindset.
Good point. While there are parts of Texas that seem Midwestern to me, the county-centric thing definitely extends beyond those areas.
I don't think a focus on counties is necessarily specific to the Midwest--I've seen it in Pennsylvania too. I think it depends partly on how much power and autonomy states delegate to their counties, which is not necessarily regionally specific, and partly also on the extent to which counties in a given state align with natural psychographic regions.
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2023, 09:43:09 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 31, 2023, 01:24:11 AM
I'm surprised at how many states don't have counties with less than 5,000 people in them.
Which states in particular? There aren't many outside the Northeast (and Arizona, whose counties are massive).
Alabama and Tennessee. I honestly would've expected some of the more rural counties in both states to be smaller, especially the three smallest counties within the state.
I also imagine county-oriented thinking is more fully ingrained in Kansas than it might be elsewhere because of the prominence of the county code on things like license plates.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 31, 2023, 04:17:42 PM
I also imagine county-oriented thinking is more fully ingrained in Kansas than it might be elsewhere because of the prominence of the county code on things like license plates.
Indeed, I've even encountered forms that have a blank to write in one's county, and there's only room for two letters. Everyone is just assumed to know to write down the same code as appears on that county's license plates.
I'm one that has clinched all of Indiana's counties. I noticed how small the counties were in area right away when I saw how close together a lot of county seats were like from Rushville in Rush County to Connersville in Fayette County it's only about 16 miles and both cities are in the middle of their county. Glenwood is on the county line and is about 8 miles from each of them.
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2023, 01:40:00 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 31, 2023, 01:14:04 PM
Indiana's population density is 5x that of Kansas. Only six of Indiana's counties have a population density less than Kansas' statewide figure.
I think what I wasn't fully considering is how much closer together communities are there.
So, for example, the fifth-least-populous county in Kansas (Hodgeman) has its county seat in Jetmore, pop. 867. And the fifth-least populous county in Indiana (Martin) has its county seat in Shoals, pop. 677. But Hodgeman County pretty much just has one other community in it at all—two if you're feeling generous—whereas Martin County has several. The largest of those several others is Loogootee, which is under 3000, but I wasn't appreciating how much all the other communities can add up, because I was erroneously assuming only two or three communities per county in the least-populated ones.
Which, to bring it full circle, is represented by a higher population density. Even areas that might not be part of a named "community" are more densely populated in states such as IN, KY, and TN than they are in KS. All those populated hills and valleys add up to quite a bit more population per square mile than endless farmland with the occasional farmstead and even more occasional small town.
Here's a handy reference: https://maps.geo.census.gov/ddmv/map.html
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2023, 07:27:53 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2023, 01:40:00 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 31, 2023, 01:14:04 PM
Indiana's population density is 5x that of Kansas. Only six of Indiana's counties have a population density less than Kansas' statewide figure.
I think what I wasn't fully considering is how much closer together communities are there.
So, for example, the fifth-least-populous county in Kansas (Hodgeman) has its county seat in Jetmore, pop. 867. And the fifth-least populous county in Indiana (Martin) has its county seat in Shoals, pop. 677. But Hodgeman County pretty much just has one other community in it at all—two if you're feeling generous—whereas Martin County has several. The largest of those several others is Loogootee, which is under 3000, but I wasn't appreciating how much all the other communities can add up, because I was erroneously assuming only two or three communities per county in the least-populated ones.
Which, to bring it full circle, is represented by a higher population density. Even areas that might not be part of a named "community" are more densely populated in states such as IN, KY, and TN than they are in KS. All those populated hills and valleys add up to quite a bit more population per square mile than endless farmland with the occasional farmstead and even more occasional small town.
Here's a handy reference: https://maps.geo.census.gov/ddmv/map.html
Indiana has 569 municipalities (I've been to all but 57 of them). That's a lot for a state that size and an average of 6.2 per county. 263 of them have a population < 1,000, but all those small numbers add up.
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2023, 07:27:53 PM
Here's a handy reference: https://maps.geo.census.gov/ddmv/map.html
That map makes me even more surprised that Illinois doesn't have more <5000 counties.
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2023, 09:41:15 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2023, 07:27:53 PM
Here's a handy reference: https://maps.geo.census.gov/ddmv/map.html
That map makes me even more surprised that Illinois doesn't have more <5000 counties.
Part of it is that "Less than 50.0" [persons per square mile] encompasses a very broad range of counties. If it were split into less than 25 and 25-49.9, the difference between those Illinois counties and those western Kansas counties would be more clear.
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2023, 05:22:17 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on October 31, 2023, 04:17:42 PMI also imagine county-oriented thinking is more fully ingrained in Kansas than it might be elsewhere because of the prominence of the county code on things like license plates.
Indeed, I've even encountered forms that have a blank to write in one's county, and there's only room for two letters. Everyone is just assumed to know to write down the same code as appears on that county's license plates.
The two-letter county codes are also used in case captions on the state's new Odyssey statewide court records system (which is down, for the immediately foreseeable future, for reasons the Office of Judicial Administration has not explained in public; press speculation has centered on a possible ransomware attack). This means one has to pay careful attention to where the two-letter code appears in a caption, because there is overlap between counties and codes used to identify case type: e.g., JO (Johnson) is also Juvenile Offender, and CR (Crawford) is also Criminal.
This said, even though its current project numbering scheme dates from the early 1980's and thus massively post-dates introduction of two-letter county codes around 1950, KDOT identifies counties by alphabetical sequence (e.g., 87 instead of SG for Sedgwick). I suspect part of the reason is to allow the use of 106 as a dummy number for projects not assignable to a single county.
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2023, 02:46:01 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on October 27, 2023, 02:33:34 PMthe best possible hose dress
https://www.sanssoucie.ca/store/regenerateleannedress
LOL! "Hose dress" by analogy to cable dressing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_dressing) (but I think you knew that . . .).
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Arkansas is
not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.
Quote from: webny99 on October 19, 2023, 11:01:28 PM
I like the idea of using Missouri instead of Arkansas to dilute the South part of the equation. Missouri is also a bit southern in some respects, but Arkansas is too close to a Deep South superlative.
You've never been to Arkansas, have you?
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.
I can at least see it for the Delta region. The rest of the state, especially west of US 67, is definitely still southern but more of a peripheral south.
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.
Louisiana?
Tennessee?
Louisiana? By some definitions. Tennessee? No way. Tennessee is too far north to be part of the deep south.
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.
Ozarks.
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2023, 12:19:50 PM
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.
Ozarks.
For me, the deep South, geographically, does not include "mountains".
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 15, 2023, 12:23:59 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2023, 12:19:50 PM
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.
Ozarks.
For me, the deep South, geographically, does not include "mountains".
Eh, fair enough. I suppose Ozarks are more like Appalachia.
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 08:05:08 AM
Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2023, 12:19:50 PM
Ozarks.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 15, 2023, 12:23:59 PM
For me, the deep South, geographically, does not include "mountains".
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2023, 12:28:45 PM
Eh, fair enough. I suppose Ozarks are more like Appalachia.
And see, with your one-word reply earlier, I didn't realize you were trying to prove Arkansas was
in the deep south. The Ozarks are, to me, so obviously
not in the deep south, that I assumed your reply was meant to reinforce bugo's assertion—not meant to counter it.
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.
It borders Louisiana. It borders Mississippi the state and Mississippi the river. It's across said river from Memphis. It has geographical, historical and cultural ties to the Mississippi Delta. I don't see anything
not deep southern about eastern/southeastern Arkansas, though I respect that can't necessarily be applied to the whole state.
Quote from: US 89 on November 15, 2023, 08:27:45 AM
I can at least see it for the Delta region. The rest of the state, especially west of US 67, is definitely still southern but more of a peripheral south.
Yeah, I think US 67 would be a good dividing line, or I-30/I-40 at the very least. That would include the areas that most obviously belong by nature of bordering Mississippi/Louisiana and/or being in the Mississippi River Delta.
Quote from: kphoger on November 15, 2023, 12:37:20 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2023, 12:28:45 PM
Eh, fair enough. I suppose Ozarks are more like Appalachia.
And see, with your one-word reply earlier, I didn't realize you were trying to prove Arkansas was in the deep south. The Ozarks are, to me, so obviously not in the deep south, that I assumed your reply was meant to reinforce bugo's assertion—not meant to counter it.
I agree that the Ozarks are not the Deep South. Still very southern, and in many ways pretty close to a superlative of it, but a slightly different brand than Deep South all the same.
Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan. The plains states are borderline.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 15, 2023, 03:40:04 PM
The plains states are borderline.
This ideology is still completely mind-boggling to me.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 15, 2023, 03:49:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 15, 2023, 03:40:04 PM
The plains states are borderline.
This ideology is still completely mind-boggling to me.
When I think of midwest I think Chicago, Ohio, Detroit, great lakes, and rust belt. The Plains States in atlases I owned as a child were often a separate region from the midwest. Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 15, 2023, 03:52:53 PMKansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.
Flat (except the WV-adjacent areas), used for farming, significant majority white (no Black Belt like the South has), and both voted to guarantee abortion rights in the state constitution via ballot initiative despite being red states.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 15, 2023, 03:52:53 PM
Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.
Except for agriculture, accent, ancestry, general topography, large state universities, culinary traditions...
A former co-worker in Denver, from Topeka, had the same accent and same pronunciation of words as my mother, who was from SE Ohio.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 15, 2023, 03:52:53 PM
Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.
I can't really think of any ways they're different.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 15, 2023, 05:36:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 15, 2023, 03:52:53 PM
Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.
I can't really think of any ways they're different.
Maybe Steubenville and surrounds being more Appalachian, but Columbus and Wichita are two generic, Midwestern cities to me.
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2023, 12:19:50 PM
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.
Ozarks.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH are you serious? The Ozarks are NOTHING like Mississippi, Georgia or Alabama. Perhaps there's some similarity between the Ouachitas and the northern Georgia mountains, but the Ozarks are nothing like the Deep South. Fayetteville has more in common with Tulsa and Springfield than Macon or Birmingham.
Quote from: webny99 on November 15, 2023, 01:20:46 PM
It borders Louisiana. It borders Mississippi the state and Mississippi the river. It's across said river from Memphis.
It also shares a border with Missouri, but that doesn't mean Arkansas is part of the Midwest.
Quote
It has geographical, historical and cultural ties to the Mississippi Delta. I don't see anything not deep southern about eastern/southeastern Arkansas, though I respect that can't necessarily be applied to the whole state.
Have you ever been to Arkansas? Have you been to the actual deep south? They're nothing alike!
In my experience, the vast majority of those who think the plains states are not Midwest are northeasterners who have never been to the plains.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 15, 2023, 05:36:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 15, 2023, 03:52:53 PM
Kansas is not really similar to Ohio in any way.
I can't really think of any ways they're different.
I wonder if the fact that we're roadgeeks has anything to do with the divergence in views, especially for those of us not from the area. Looking at a highway map, Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, and Illinois don't look at all like most of the rest of the Midwest because they're covered in interstates. Iowa, Kansas, and Nebraska on the other hand largely only have interstates because they needed to pass through while traveling across the country, not because most of the areas on there actually needed interstates to connect them in and of themselves. They also have large swaths of the state not near an interstate at all (something that's even more pronounced in the states to the west). If the answer to the question "would the bulk of your rural interstates still have been built even if the Interstate Highway Act never passed?" is "no", I can see why those states would be viewed differently to those where the answer is "yes".
Quote from: US 89 on November 15, 2023, 08:24:17 PM
In my experience, the vast majority of those who think the plains states are not Midwest are northeasterners who have never been to the plains.
I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 06:19:24 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 15, 2023, 01:20:46 PM
It borders Louisiana. It borders Mississippi the state and Mississippi the river. It's across said river from Memphis.
It also shares a border with Missouri, but that doesn't mean Arkansas is part of the Midwest.
Sharing a border with Arkansas doesn't make Missouri part of the Midwest either... :meh:
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 06:19:24 PM
Quote
It has geographical, historical and cultural ties to the Mississippi Delta. I don't see anything not deep southern about eastern/southeastern Arkansas, though I respect that can't necessarily be applied to the whole state.
Have you ever been to Arkansas? Have you been to the actual deep south? They're nothing alike!
No, FWIW, but I already pointed out the similarities and I'm not sure what the difference is other than the Ozarks being a slightly different brand of south, but that doesn't apply to the Delta region. How is Forrest City, AR different from Batesville, MS? El Dorado from Ruston, LA? Magnolia from Minden? It would be pretty shocking if they're truly nothing alike, or even have more differences than similarities.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 15, 2023, 08:46:36 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 15, 2023, 08:24:17 PM
In my experience, the vast majority of those who think the plains states are not Midwest are northeasterners who have never been to the plains.
I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.
No offense, but their opinion doesn't really matter. If the people who live there think they're Midwestern, then they are. Everyone I lived near in Kansas knows Kansas is in the Midwest.
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 06:15:30 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2023, 12:19:50 PM
Quote from: bugo on November 15, 2023, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.
Ozarks.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH are you serious? The Ozarks are NOTHING like Mississippi, Georgia or Alabama. Perhaps there's some similarity between the Ouachitas and the northern Georgia mountains, but the Ozarks are nothing like the Deep South. Fayetteville has more in common with Tulsa and Springfield than Macon or Birmingham.
A premature ejaculation before reading the rest of the thread.
The following states are in the Midwest: North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana and Ohio.
Arkansas is in the South but not the Deep South.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 15, 2023, 10:08:19 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 15, 2023, 08:46:36 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 15, 2023, 08:24:17 PM
In my experience, the vast majority of those who think the plains states are not Midwest are northeasterners who have never been to the plains.
I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.
No offense, but their opinion doesn't really matter. If the people who live there think they're Midwestern, then they are. Everyone I lived near in Kansas knows Kansas is in the Midwest.
I would agree with you. The Great Lakes and Plains regions are subregions of the Midwest.
But someone's subjective feelings don't override objective reality. If someone from Pennsylvania tried convincing me they lived in the South, I wouldn't be out of line to tell them that they are factually incorrect.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 16, 2023, 11:51:32 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 15, 2023, 10:08:19 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 15, 2023, 08:46:36 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 15, 2023, 08:24:17 PM
In my experience, the vast majority of those who think the plains states are not Midwest are northeasterners who have never been to the plains.
I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.
No offense, but their opinion doesn't really matter. If the people who live there think they're Midwestern, then they are. Everyone I lived near in Kansas knows Kansas is in the Midwest.
I would agree with you. The Great Lakes and Plains regions are subregions of the Midwest.
But someone's subjective feelings don't override objective reality. If someone from Pennsylvania tried convincing me they lived in the South, I wouldn't be out of line to tell them that they are factually incorrect.
One person? Sure. You can tell them they're wrong. Everyone that lives there? You're more likely the person who is wrong.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 16, 2023, 07:59:31 AM
Arkansas is in the South but not the Deep South.
That's the way I see it too. But my time spent in Arkansas is very limited, so I'm open to correction.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 15, 2023, 08:46:36 PM
I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 16, 2023, 11:51:32 AM
someone's subjective feelings don't override objective reality.
1. Defining the Midwest isn't about "objective reality". If it were, then this thread wouldn't have any discussion in it.
2. Your Ohio friends' subjective feelings don't override the
objective reality that the Great Plains are Midwestern.
Quote from: kphoger on November 16, 2023, 02:05:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 16, 2023, 07:59:31 AM
Arkansas is in the South but not the Deep South.
That's the way I see it too. But my time spent in Arkansas is very limited, so I'm open to correction.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 15, 2023, 08:46:36 PM
I have some friends from Ohio that are militantly against the idea of the Plains being Midwestern.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 16, 2023, 11:51:32 AM
someone's subjective feelings don't override objective reality.
1. Defining the Midwest isn't about "objective reality". If it were, then this thread wouldn't have any discussion in it.
2. Your Ohio friends' subjective feelings don't override the objective reality that the Great Plains are Midwestern.
Re-read my post. I agreed that Kansas is in the Midwest.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 16, 2023, 11:51:32 AM
I wouldn't be out of line to tell them that they are factually incorrect.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 16, 2023, 02:13:35 PM
Re-read my post. I agreed that Kansas is in the Midwest.
Oh, I know. But you did tell your Ohio friends that they're factually incorrect, didn't you?
For Arkansas, I have only been to that state three times. I entered from Missouri on I-55 and thought that area around there felt Midwestern to me, once I got to the outskirts of Memphis and onto Little Rock I started feeling like I was in the South. I think of it as being in the South but not the Deep South like I already said in a previous post but the NE corner feels Midwestern. And as far as Missouri goes that's Midwestern for sure. The part out by Springfield and Joplin feels more like a combination of Oklahoma, Missouri itself and Kansas.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 16, 2023, 05:33:55 PM
For Arkansas, I have only been to that state three times. I entered from Missouri on I-55 and thought that area around there felt Midwestern to me, once I got to the outskirts of Memphis and onto Little Rock I started feeling like I was in the South. I think of it as being in the South but not the Deep South like I already said in a previous post but the NE corner feels Midwestern. And as far as Missouri goes that's Midwestern for sure. The part out by Springfield and Joplin feels more like a combination of Oklahoma, Missouri itself and Kansas.
Sure, but then get down by Thayer/West Plains and Missouri is more like West Virginia.
Saw this on Twitter. If you had to divide the country up with three straight lines...
(https://i.postimg.cc/63cjGcxX/Regions.png)
Dude, that's . . . well . . . now, hold on . . . that's actually not bad!
Quote from: kphoger on March 28, 2024, 04:32:08 PMDude, that's . . . well . . . now, hold on . . . that's actually not bad!
That's what I thought too. Western Maryland being the South? Check. Southern Illinois and Missouri being the South? Check. There's always nuance, but for three straight lines, I don't think you can do much better.
I'd personally slant the West line a bit to the southeast-northwest, but leave the point of intersection the same. So the north end of the line would be near the MT/ND border, and the south end would be farther down the Rio Grande. But that's about it.
Quote from: kphoger on March 28, 2024, 04:45:56 PMI'd personally slant the West line a bit to the southeast-northwest, but leave the point of intersection the same. So the north end of the line would be near the MT/ND border, and the south end would be farther down the Rio Grande. But that's about it.
I could be amenable to that as well. Eastern Montana, as we've discussed
could be Midwestern. It would probably make Sterling, CO in the Midwest which isn't unreasonable. And something like Ozona, TX could be in the West.
I would probably put all of Colorado's High Plains (east of Limon but north of I-70) in the Midwest, but using the straight lines, that would put part of New Mexico in the South, which it is most assuredly not.