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What is up with Mississippi?

Started by HemiCRZ, November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM

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HemiCRZ

So I'm a new member here and a blossoming road geek. Obviously, being from Mississippi, I question a lot of what our DOT is doing.

A few of the more recent developments I've come to question.

- I-59, why is this not six lane through Hattiesburg?
- US 98, has it ever been floated to four-lane the entire highway and eliminate the weird two-lane section? Maybe now that Alabama is moving again with their fourlaning of 98, it will give MS reason to make several improvements between Hattiesburg and the state line.
- US 49, are they ever going to upgrade this to a freeway from Jackson to Hattiesburg, or are they just going to keep building the redlights.
- MS 42, I keep reading about a potential Hattiesburg beltway. Would this be MS 42 or possibly given a MS 5XX number. It would make sense to number it MS 42 from I-59 to US 49, then 5XX along the rest of the route.
- MS 15, wasn't this route supposed to be a four lane highway?

Other questions.

- Shoulders. Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.
- Mile markers. See the shoulders argument. Every other state I've been to puts mile markers on their state and US routes. Why does MS feel absent from these basic highway features?

That's all my questions. I'd love to hear input!
Interstate Highways that I've Driven On:
I-5, I-8, I-10, I-20, I-24, I-40, I-55, I-59, I-264, I-65, I-70, I-270, I-71, I-75, I-79, I-376, I-80, I-580, I-680, I-93, I-293


formulanone

Welcome to our forums!

Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
- I-59, why is this not six lane through Hattiesburg?

Quote- MS 42, I keep reading about a potential Hattiesburg beltway. Would this be MS 42 or possibly given a MS 5XX number. It would make sense to number it MS 42 from I-59 to US 49, then 5XX along the rest of the route.

There's some rather narrow bridges and exits around the Hattiesburg-Laurel area, so it would need a tremendous amount of work. The exit spacing is also rather close together, where I-59's speed limit drops down to 60. I'm going to guess this was a very old section of 1960's freeway that became "promoted" to Interstate status, based on appearance and design cues.

Your suggested beltway might help a lot...but I think it's like a lot of road projects that get stalled: no money, and nobody wants to directly pay for it.

Quote
- Shoulders. Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.

Alabama sometimes includes them, sometimes not. Almost all new repaving jobs on SRs might get them, except where it's too tight due to existing terrain or bridges.

Quote- Mile markers. See the shoulders argument. Every other state I've been to puts mile markers on their state and US routes. Why does MS feel absent from these basic highway features?

Probably should start around the major routes and see if it's helpful from there. Florida only got on the State Road Mile Marker Bandwagon very recently, mostly for major US Routes (although US 1 was a notable for having them all along).

kphoger

Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.

Iowa says hello.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

froggie

Responding to a couple comments here:

Quote- I-59, why is this not six lane through Hattiesburg?

Traffic volume doesn't warrant 6 lanes.  You could maybe argue for auxiliary lanes between the US 98 West and US 49 interchanges, but that would require both money and probably replacing both the 4th St and Longleaf Trace overpasses.

Quote- US 98, has it ever been floated to four-lane the entire highway and eliminate the weird two-lane section? Maybe now that Alabama is moving again with their fourlaning of 98, it will give MS reason to make several improvements between Hattiesburg and the state line.

Mississippi's segment east of Hattiesburg is adequate...not much really needing to be done with that, even with Alabama finally getting around to their leg.  As for west of McComb, traffic volumes are not high enough there.

MNHighwayMan

Quote from: kphoger on November 16, 2018, 11:19:37 AM
Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.
Iowa says hello.

Even if they aren't paved, there's at least a wide gravel shoulder most of the time. I've only come across a select few sections of Iowa highway that have almost no shoulder at all.

BrianP

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on November 17, 2018, 03:01:09 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 16, 2018, 11:19:37 AM
Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.
Iowa says hello.

Even if they aren't paved, there's at least a wide gravel shoulder most of the time. I've only come across a select few sections of Iowa highway that have almost no shoulder at all.
Maryland also has state routes without shoulders. 
https://goo.gl/maps/FRp49H16JcH2
https://goo.gl/maps/pbvSgcDNAd62
https://goo.gl/maps/z1wk1VWAP4q
https://goo.gl/maps/ueKkd5ysoPu

codyg1985

Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
- US 49, are they ever going to upgrade this to a freeway from Jackson to Hattiesburg, or are they just going to keep building the redlights.

MDOT is currently widening a portion of US 49 to six lanes in Rankin County, but I believe it is just that; no upgrading it to a freeway.
Cody Goodman
Huntsville, AL, United States

Chris

I-59 around Hattiesburg opened circa 1963 according to the historical state highway map. The Laurel - Hattiesburg segment was the first of I-59 to be constructed, probably in 1961-1962. It doesn't appear on the 1960 state highway map.

1962:


1963:

DJStephens

Pretty amazing - the straight shots the Interstates took in the early days.  Right through the National Forest.  (I-20).   Remember being on that road in the early - mid nineties.  The original concrete slabs had heaved, due to expansive (clay) soils.  Up and down, repeat thousands of times.   Guessing it has been rebuilt by now.   

cjk374

Quote from: DJStephens on November 25, 2018, 10:31:21 AM
Pretty amazing - the straight shots the Interstates took in the early days.  Right through the National Forest.  (I-20).   Remember being on that road in the early - mid nineties.  The original concrete slabs had heaved, due to expansive (clay) soils.  Up and down, repeat thousands of times.   Guessing it has been rebuilt by now.   

Indeed it has. But it won't last long.
Runnin' roads and polishin' rails.

Revive 755

Quote from: kphoger on November 16, 2018, 11:19:37 AM
Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.

Iowa says hello.

And Missouri and Illinois as well.

capt.ron

Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
So I'm a new member here and a blossoming road geek. Obviously, being from Mississippi, I question a lot of what our DOT is doing.

A few of the more recent developments I've come to question.

- I-59, why is this not six lane through Hattiesburg?
- US 98, has it ever been floated to four-lane the entire highway and eliminate the weird two-lane section? Maybe now that Alabama is moving again with their fourlaning of 98, it will give MS reason to make several improvements between Hattiesburg and the state line.
- US 49, are they ever going to upgrade this to a freeway from Jackson to Hattiesburg, or are they just going to keep building the redlights.
- MS 42, I keep reading about a potential Hattiesburg beltway. Would this be MS 42 or possibly given a MS 5XX number. It would make sense to number it MS 42 from I-59 to US 49, then 5XX along the rest of the route.
- MS 15, wasn't this route supposed to be a four lane highway?

Other questions.

- Shoulders. Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.
- Mile markers. See the shoulders argument. Every other state I've been to puts mile markers on their state and US routes. Why does MS feel absent from these basic highway features?

That's all my questions. I'd love to hear input!
Having traveled through Mississippi (primarily the northern tier), I can add to the list...
US 72 was mainly 2 lanes until the mid 1980's onward (The Corinth section was 4 lanes as long as I could remember -- late 1970's I guess...). The very last section of 72 just got 4 laned as per Google Maps. From the TN/MS state line to MS 302. It took Mississippi forever to modernize the road.
US 49 south of Jackson: the old concrete lanes need to be redone. Also, reroute US 49 over to I-59 around Hattiesburg and sign the existing roadway as 49 Bus or MS 149.

kphoger

Quote from: Revive 755 on November 25, 2018, 12:22:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 16, 2018, 11:19:37 AM
Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.

Iowa says hello.

And Missouri and Illinois as well.

I didn't include Missouri or Illinois because it's fairly easy to find state routes there that do have paved shoulders.  Iowa, not so much.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

US 89

Quote from: kphoger on November 25, 2018, 04:31:35 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 25, 2018, 12:22:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 16, 2018, 11:19:37 AM
Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.

Iowa says hello.

And Missouri and Illinois as well.

I didn't include Missouri or Illinois because it's fairly easy to find state routes there that do have paved shoulders.  Iowa, not so much.

Utah says hello as well (on a US Highway, no less).

wanderer2575

Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
- Shoulders. Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.

Michigan has a few without, such as M-311.  https://goo.gl/maps/hSWJGJJy7C72
Granted, this example was an acquisition and the state hasn't done any upgrading yet.

Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
- Mile markers. See the shoulders argument. Every other state I've been to puts mile markers on their state and US routes. Why does MS feel absent from these basic highway features?

Michigan posts mile markers only on freeways (although there are some instances of counties posting their own markers).  There are still even a few freeways without mile markers:  I-375, M-8, and the north-south portion of the freeway stretch of M-5 (I'm guessing the latter is because it would have to violate the northbound increase/southbound decrease convention -- will be interesting to see if mile markers are posted when freeway signs are replaced next year).


707

#15
Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
So I'm a new member here and a blossoming road geek. Obviously, being from Mississippi, I question a lot of what our DOT is doing.

A few of the more recent developments I've come to question.

- I-59, why is this not six lane through Hattiesburg?
- US 98, has it ever been floated to four-lane the entire highway and eliminate the weird two-lane section? Maybe now that Alabama is moving again with their fourlaning of 98, it will give MS reason to make several improvements between Hattiesburg and the state line.
- US 49, are they ever going to upgrade this to a freeway from Jackson to Hattiesburg, or are they just going to keep building the redlights.
- MS 42, I keep reading about a potential Hattiesburg beltway. Would this be MS 42 or possibly given a MS 5XX number. It would make sense to number it MS 42 from I-59 to US 49, then 5XX along the rest of the route.
- MS 15, wasn't this route supposed to be a four lane highway?

Other questions.

- Shoulders. Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.
- Mile markers. See the shoulders argument. Every other state I've been to puts mile markers on their state and US routes. Why does MS feel absent from these basic highway features?

That's all my questions. I'd love to hear input!
I would like to point out there are many state highways in other states that lack shoulders. Georgia and Alabama have a few, which include sections of mainline U.S. Highways that lack shoulders. There are many highways in my own state, Arizona, that also lack shoulders such as the paved portion of SR 88 and certain sections of US 191. SR 88 remains unpaved east of Tortilla Flat for historical purposes. I've seen examples in New Mexico as well. NM 549 lacks shoulders in many areas as does NM 418. NM 93 doesn't have pavement in areas, sharing a few hundred feet with an old section of US 66 which also lacks pavement. And forgive me if I'm wrong regarding this highway, but isn't the eastern end of California SR 4 also unpaved?

As for mileposts, many state highway systems lacked mileposts until the advent of the Interstate Highway System, when AASHTO heavily recommended their implementation (along with exits numbered from mileposts) to help ease the job of motorists telling distances on the freeways. California used an unsigned system of station numbers along sections of highways on blueprints until the 1964 Renumbering, when the Postmile system was introduced. Its odd Mississippi has yet to implement this system.

Either way it's worth remembering Mississippi has the lowest per capita income of any state in the US, so the DOT isnt going to be as well funded as other states.

golden eagle

Re: US 49, the central Mississippi highway commissioner once floated the idea years ago of upgrading to an interstate, but it was just talk. I moved back to Mississippi in 2003 and took a trip to Hattiesburg. I couldn't believe the amount of lights that popped up. There used to be only one light between Florence and Hattiesburg and it was in Magee.

index

Quote from: Revive 755 on November 25, 2018, 12:22:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 16, 2018, 11:19:37 AM
Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.

Iowa says hello.

And Missouri and Illinois as well.


Picking this up, North and South Carolina (Especially SC) almost never, ever make use of shoulders at all on any route that's not an Interstate. There are a few exceptions like US 321 from Gastonia to Hickory but there's not too much.
I love my 2010 Ford Explorer.



Counties traveled

froggie

Quote from: golden eagleRe: US 49, the central Mississippi highway commissioner once floated the idea years ago of upgrading to an interstate, but it was just talk.

It wasn't just talk.  It became part of "Vision 21" that was passed by the state Legislature in 2002.  Of course, the Legislature's refusal to raise taxes or find other funding to build out "Vision 21" is a big reason it hasn't gone anywhere.

sprjus4

Quote from: index on January 11, 2019, 09:38:16 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 25, 2018, 12:22:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 16, 2018, 11:19:37 AM
Quote from: HemiCRZ on November 16, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
Literally every other state except MS puts paved shoulders on their state routes.

Iowa says hello.

And Missouri and Illinois as well.


Picking this up, North and South Carolina (Especially SC) almost never, ever make use of shoulders at all on any route that's not an Interstate. There are a few exceptions like US 321 from Gastonia to Hickory but there's not too much.
Apparently they feel it's not necessary. I'd sure hate to break down or have to pull over. And when they say move accidents from travel lanes. Where the hell am I supposed to go? On the grass?

MikieTimT

In Arkansas, you're lucky if you get shoulders period on state highways in the northwest half of the state.  That said, when they have them, they are paved, although they may be only a foot wide in some cases.

wriddle082

TN, KY, WV, OH, IN, and I think VA all have full paved shoulders of at least 8' in width (usually 10') on all new 2- and 4-lane highways built since at least the 70's.  NC, SC, GA, and FL (and maybe AL) do not do this.

The circa-2000 SC 22 freeway in the Myrtle Beach area only has graded shoulders but they are not paved, which will need to be rectified once part of it becomes I-73.  They at least had the right mind to pave the shoulders on the SC 31 freeway.

Just about every non-interstate freeway in TN and KY has fully paved shoulders.  The only issues that these have that would keep them from becoming interstates are mostly due to curvature, a few substandard interchanges, and importance.

sprjus4

Quote from: wriddle082 on March 01, 2019, 10:15:12 PM
I think VA all have full paved shoulders of at least 8' in width (usually 10') on all new 2- and 4-lane highways built since at least the 70's.
Typically in Virginia, new highways have 8 foot or 10 foot paved shoulders. Two lane roads are usually 4 foot paved shoulders. The 2005 U.S. Route 17 relocation in Chesapeake (freeway standard, but with at-grade intersections) has 8 foot paved shoulders, where for instance the 2005 U.S. Route 29 Lynchburg-Madison Heights bypass has 10 foot paved shoulders. The 2016 Dominion Blvd freeway upgrade has 10 foot paved shoulders, along with the 2001 VA-168 relocation, however both of those projects were done by the City of Chesapeake, and not VDOT.

Quote from: wriddle082 on March 01, 2019, 10:15:12 PM
NC, SC, GA, and FL (and maybe AL) do not do this.
NCDOT provides a 4 foot paved shoulder, with a full 10 foot shoulder graded, on all highways since the 70s and 80s. Certain highways however have been constructed to full interstate standards (10 foot paved shoulders) however. Since about 2015, most new location freeways are now being constructed with 10 foot shoulders by default. The U.S. Route 17 Maysville & Pollocksville bypasses, the U.S. Route 64 Asheboro Bypass, and the NC-11 Greensville Bypass slated to open in the next year or two all have 10 foot paved shoulders, and are not interstate highways. The 4-lane widenings though only have 4 foot paved, 10 foot graded.  I know FDOT, GDOT, and SCDOT provides about 4 foot as well, presumably with a 10 foot graded, however I'm unaware of this specification. I'm most familiar with VDOT & NCDOT standards mainly.

froggie

Quote from: wriddle082NC, SC, GA, and FL (and maybe AL) do not do this.

ALDOT typically does on new construction.  However, they typically will not add wider shoulders to the existing lanes on twinning projects.

roadman65

Not many roads in FL have them that are not freeway.  Drive SR 70 from US 27 to Okeechobee and see not only are there no shoulders paved but narrow travel lanes that are 10 feet most of the way.

Milemarkers are new and spreading some but not the rule all along.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe



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