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Started by vtk, May 13, 2014, 05:36:54 PM

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oscar

Quote from: hbelkins on January 24, 2015, 08:51:14 PM
Ever run into a situation where different court jurisdictions had differing local rules? I have heard of instances in Kentucky where different judges have different rules for fonts, page margins, etc. in different judicial districts or circuits.

My agency practiced primarily in Federal courts (which have a uniform set of procedural rules, but each appeals and district court can supplement them with its own rules on matters not controlled by the uniform rules), plus one administrative tribunal with a single set of rules. Once you decided where to file a case (sometimes you have a choice), it's time for one or more people on your team to memorize the local rules.

The local differences affect not just typography, but also page limits and other more substantive matters. One district court where we were frequent customers had unusually tight page limits, even for major motions like to block a corporate merger (yeah, the limits can be relaxed in a specific case, but since the courts imposing tight limits tend to be the ones least patient with lengthy briefs, best to try very hard not to ask for more space). So there we had to pull out all the typographic stops to meet the limits, and ruthlessly simplify our arguments since there's only so much typography can do. 
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html


Pete from Boston

I had a boss that made me use two spaces in official docs and I decided it was clearer and kept doing it. 

But you can't tell in this post.

1995hoo

One thing I use to meet page limits is automatic hyphenation at the ends of lines. I know of no court whose rules prohibit it, so I don't hesitate to use it.

Even with word limits, you can play some games because you're allowed to rely on your software's count. MS Word counts hyphenated compounds as one word. US-50 is one word, US 50 is two. So if I'm tight on words and it's not incorrect to use a hyphen to join two words, I will. (Consider a brief relating to jurisdiction. If you use the words "federal question jurisdiction" frequently, saying "federal-question jurisdiction" can make a big difference!) WordPerfect counts words joined by a hard space as one word rather than two, so in some situations that can make a difference.

Writing style makes a huge difference. It's amazing how many words people waste. Overuse of "that" wastes space. "He said that he would drive to New York." "He said he would drive to New York." You don't need "that." Another example is people who use the "of the" form for possessives–"the order of the Court dated January 26, 2015." What's wrong with "the Court's order dated January 26, 2015"? Saves you two words. That's not much by itself, but when you do this repeatedly throughout a lengthy document it adds up.

I have a publication in the editing process right now that contains a chapter on these sorts of issues. There are a lot of seemingly trivial things you can do to decrease a word count without sacrificing substance. (Example: Instead of typing three spaced-out periods for an ellipsis . . ., use the typographic ellipsis character. MS Word treats the spaced-out periods as three "words" but the ellipsis character as one. Why the heck should I lose "words" in my word-count limit for something chickenshit like a style guide's old-fashioned typewriter-era ellipsis rule?)
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Scott5114

Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 25, 2015, 08:54:50 PM
I had a boss that made me use two spaces in official docs and I decided it was clearer and kept doing it. 

But you can't tell in this post.
That's because HTML disregards most whitespace to allow the code to be arranged clearly without impacting the way it is displayed. Of course, these days, most HTML is automatically generated, but you know, hysterical raisins and all that.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

busman_49

Quote from: PurdueBill on January 24, 2015, 01:11:22 PM
...my fingers automatically enter two spaces after every sentence.  Learned it that way and will never manage to unlearn...
Mine too.  Don't know how or where I learned it (I think it was Mom), but forget about trying to un-teach me.

Quote from: PurdueBill on January 24, 2015, 01:11:22 PM
...and misplaced apostrophes piss me off...
Yup.  C'mon, it's not that hard...

Quote from: PurdueBill on January 24, 2015, 01:11:22 PM
...When handwriting I cross my 7s and Zs and if needed to avoid ambiguity, slash my zeros...
I started crossing my Zs in 8th grade algebra class because I had a hard time telling the difference between my 2s and Zs when I was writing a little too fast.  Plus I thought it looked neat, so I never stopped doing it.  Never have crossed my 7s and probably never will.  As far as slashing my zeros, I tried that once, also in 8th grade algebra.  The teacher told me that it was the symbol for empty set, which meant something completely different.  So that was something that never took hold.

vtk

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 26, 2015, 10:12:11 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 25, 2015, 08:54:50 PM
I had a boss that made me use two spaces in official docs and I decided it was clearer and kept doing it. 

But you can't tell in this post.
That's because HTML disregards most whitespace to allow the code to be arranged clearly without impacting the way it is displayed. Of course, these days, most HTML is automatically generated, but you know, hysterical raisins and all that.

Many websites convert two spaces in user content to a nonbreaking space and a normal space, so runs of spaces aren't collapsed.  I'm pretty sure this forum does.  No, the reason we couldn't tell in Pete's post is because there was only one sentence per paragraph.
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been.

NoGoodNamesAvailable


Quote from: Scott5114 on May 14, 2014, 05:27:02 AM
Caledonia is a similar font that I like quite a bit:

Late to the party here, but Caledonia has always held a sort of negative connotation to me. Well, it turns out the reason is that this font is the same font that's used on all of the dreaded New York State Regents Exams. Weird how I still remember the font and have bad associations with it (I was never fond of exams.)


iPad

Scott5114

#57
It's a rather stern-looking typeface, I admit. (The 2 looks like you could use it as a weapon.) I associate it with Up the Down Staircase, as every copy of that book that I've seen uses it for most of the text. That book has some particularly creative typography in it, though.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kkt

I associate Clarendon with National Park signs and general happy times.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: kkt on June 24, 2015, 01:38:30 PM
I associate Clarendon with National Park signs and general happy times.

Unfortunately NPS has officially changed to a new font, NPS Rawlinson, though there is plenty of Clarendon still around. NPS explains why.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 25, 2015, 09:22:46 PM
One thing I use to meet page limits is automatic hyphenation at the ends of lines. I know of no court whose rules prohibit it, so I don't hesitate to use it.

Don't the courts have specific fonts that they want used in documents filed with them?
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

kkt

Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 24, 2015, 06:21:03 PM
Quote from: kkt on June 24, 2015, 01:38:30 PM
I associate Clarendon with National Park signs and general happy times.

Unfortunately NPS has officially changed to a new font, NPS Rawlinson, though there is plenty of Clarendon still around. NPS explains why.

Aww.  I really liked Clarendon.

briantroutman

Quote from: NPS BS...among the barriers to a greater public understanding of the breadth and depth of our agency was a lack of consistency in the content and appearance of visual materials presented to the public...

Sounds like the perfect rationale for switching to new typefaces and thereby creating even more inconsistency.

...wait, what?

I did one of my student projects on Clarendon while going for my BFA. It's a timeless typeface.

kkt

Clarendon has free versions available.  Rawlinson is restricted to the NPS.  Want to use it on your sign ideas, models, or graphics?  Get permission from Manglement first.

1995hoo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 24, 2015, 06:23:11 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 25, 2015, 09:22:46 PM
One thing I use to meet page limits is automatic hyphenation at the ends of lines. I know of no court whose rules prohibit it, so I don't hesitate to use it.

Don't the courts have specific fonts that they want used in documents filed with them?

Varies depending on the court. Most have no specific rule other than requiring serifs, though of course if you use a calligraphy font you do so at your own risk. There are exceptions, of course–for example, the US Supreme Court requires a Century family font, while the Alabama Supreme Court requires 13-point Courier. I use MB Type's Equity Text A for most of my filings.

But that's all separate from hyphenation at the end of a line. 
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Scott5114

I sort of forgot that hyphenation exists. I'm so used to consuming online material, where page counts are irrelevant and line breaks always occur at the end of a word, that the concept just plain slipped from my mind.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 24, 2015, 09:34:57 PM
Varies depending on the court. Most have no specific rule other than requiring serifs, though of course if you use a calligraphy font you do so at your own risk. There are exceptions, of course–for example, the US Supreme Court requires a Century family font, while the Alabama Supreme Court requires 13-point Courier. I use MB Type's Equity Text A for most of my filings.

Darned - I was hoping you could do a brief in FHWA Gothic or Clearview!  ;-)

New Century Schoolbook always has had a nice look. 

Courier?  Usually denounced as "old fashioned" and worse, but I always liked it.  First saw it on an IBM Selectric typewriter (with the "golf ball" element).

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 24, 2015, 09:34:57 PM
But that's all separate from hyphenation at the end of a line. 

Of course.

IMO, I don't like hyphenation - gets tiring on long documents.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

sipes23

Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 25, 2015, 02:01:46 AM
New Century Schoolbook always has had a nice look.

It does. I use it when I want to talk down to the audience.   :-o

Dr Frankenstein

I turn on hyphenation on pretty much everything I print, and kerning and ligatures too (seeing "fi" with the dot sticking into the 'f' is a pet peeve of mine). My default Word template also defaults to justified alignment rather than left.

Most of my print documents use the Calluna and Calluna Sans typefaces, usually with the serif version in body text, and the sans-serif version in titles and asides. One example of that is my Québec City road meet tour guide.

SignGeek101

I always use FHWA (series D usually) or Clearview (3W or 5W) :sombrero:

Most cases, it looks great, although I wish it was a little thinner. Everything I write looks like it's bolded.

briantroutman

Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 25, 2015, 02:01:46 AM
Courier?  Usually denounced as "old fashioned" and worse, but I always liked it.  First saw it on an IBM Selectric typewriter (with the "golf ball" element).

It's not just a taste issue and a matter of denouncing Courier as "old fashioned" . Courier truly is a functionally inferior typeface. Its primary deficiency is that it's a monospaced typeface, meaning that a broad capital W takes up the same width as a gaunt lowercase i.

Monospacing was necessary with early typewriters so that every letter would line up perfectly, allowing tabs, spaces, and line lengths to be set at conveniently even intervals. But monospacing was a concession to the limitations of the equipment and is certainly not a desirable characteristic.

If you like the slab look of Courier, American Typewriter is a proportional typeface (used in Milton Glaser's  I ❤ NY graphic) that has a similar typewriter-y feel but doesn't have the drawbacks of monospacing.

1995hoo

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, part of the reason I dislike Courier is that legal citations are replete with annoying periods. (Example: West Publishing's South Eastern Reporter, Second Series, is cited as S.E.2d even though SE2d would do perfectly well. Then you have to add a reference to the court issuing the opinion and that adds further periods.) In a monospaced font, the periods take up the same amount of space as a capital "M" and therefore use of such typefaces wastes a lot of space if the document is subject to a page limit (as opposed to a word-count limit). This is part of the point briantroutman made, of course, but it's a particular nuance of that point that's specific to a particular type of work.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2015, 07:55:59 PM
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, part of the reason I dislike Courier is that legal citations are replete with annoying periods. (Example: West Publishing's South Eastern Reporter, Second Series, is cited as S.E.2d even though SE2d would do perfectly well. Then you have to add a reference to the court issuing the opinion and that adds further periods.) In a monospaced font, the periods take up the same amount of space as a capital "M" and therefore use of such typefaces wastes a lot of space if the document is subject to a page limit (as opposed to a word-count limit). This is part of the point briantroutman made, of course, but it's a particular nuance of that point that's specific to a particular type of work.

I read someplace that footnotes do not count toward the limit on words in briefs filed with the courts.  No idea if that is true or not. 

Speaking of filings with the courts, this is from the Maryland Appellate Blog (by the State Bar Association) about fonts, and is pretty recent (2014) and pretty amusing,
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: briantroutman on June 25, 2015, 04:31:10 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 25, 2015, 02:01:46 AM
Courier?  Usually denounced as "old fashioned" and worse, but I always liked it.  First saw it on an IBM Selectric typewriter (with the "golf ball" element).

It's not just a taste issue and a matter of denouncing Courier as "old fashioned" . Courier truly is a functionally inferior typeface. Its primary deficiency is that it's a monospaced typeface, meaning that a broad capital W takes up the same width as a gaunt lowercase i.

No disputing any of your factual comments above. But monospaced fonts are (IMO) great in spreadsheets with lots of numbers.

Quote from: briantroutman on June 25, 2015, 04:31:10 PM
Monospacing was necessary with early typewriters so that every letter would line up perfectly, allowing tabs, spaces, and line lengths to be set at conveniently even intervals. But monospacing was a concession to the limitations of the equipment and is certainly not a desirable characteristic.

Also needed on computer [impact] line printers, which used "print trains" with slugs to transfer ink to "printout" paper.

Quote from: briantroutman on June 25, 2015, 04:31:10 PM
If you like the slab look of Courier, American Typewriter is a proportional typeface (used in Milton Glaser's  I ❤ NY graphic) that has a similar typewriter-y feel but doesn't have the drawbacks of monospacing.

Agreed.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

#74
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 25, 2015, 10:24:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2015, 07:55:59 PM
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, part of the reason I dislike Courier is that legal citations are replete with annoying periods. (Example: West Publishing's South Eastern Reporter, Second Series, is cited as S.E.2d even though SE2d would do perfectly well. Then you have to add a reference to the court issuing the opinion and that adds further periods.) In a monospaced font, the periods take up the same amount of space as a capital "M" and therefore use of such typefaces wastes a lot of space if the document is subject to a page limit (as opposed to a word-count limit). This is part of the point briantroutman made, of course, but it's a particular nuance of that point that's specific to a particular type of work.

I read someplace that footnotes do not count toward the limit on words in briefs filed with the courts.  No idea if that is true or not. 

....

That would depend on the particular court, but in general, I am pretty certain it is not normally the case because it would present a HUGE loophole: An attorney could simply write "The District Court's opinion should be [affirmed/reversed]." and then put unlimited argument in a footnote. I've never heard of any court in which the footnotes don't count. Certain other things (tables of contents and authorities, for example) aren't part of the word limit, but not counting footnotes would be a huge loophole!

I'll check out the link later.....my lunch just came....



Edited to add: I got around to reading the article you linked. Good stuff. I agree with pretty much everything the guy wrote.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.