News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

Tangier, Virginia and Smith Island, Maryland

Started by cpzilliacus, September 11, 2016, 03:03:57 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

cpzilliacus

The island of Tangier, in the Chesapeake Bay and part of Accomack County, Virginia is also an incorporated town, and roads there are maintained by the Virginia Department of Transportation. 

I assume that Tangier is probably the most-isolated place on the VDOT maintained highway network. 

Mike Tantillo and I recently visited there, and [hosted on Facebook, you do not have to be a member to see the pictures] here are some of the pictures I took (not all pictures are about the road infrastructure, but many are).

EDIT: Have also added images taken later from Smith Island, Maryland in Somerset County, located due north of Tangier.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.


jwolfer

I remember there was a National Geographic article about the island and town when I was a kid. I have always wanted to go there

cpzilliacus

Quote from: jwolfer on September 11, 2016, 10:54:39 PM
I remember there was a National Geographic article about the island and town when I was a kid. I have always wanted to go there

It is quite possible that a trip to Tangier will be included in a 2017 meet.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Rothman

I'd rather go to Smith Island on the MD side.  I've had the cake, but never stepped foot on the island itself.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

cpzilliacus

#4
Quote from: Rothman on September 12, 2016, 01:00:13 PM
I'd rather go to Smith Island on the MD side.  I've had the cake, but never stepped foot on the island itself.

I have it in my plans to take the ferry to Smith Island too.

That would be to consider it as a possible meet destination, which may not be practical in one day because of the schedules that the ferries adhere to (unless you own or charter a boat or aircraft, it is not really possible to visit Tangier and Smith Island in one day).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Alps

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 13, 2016, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on September 12, 2016, 01:00:13 PM
I'd rather go to Smith Island on the MD side.  I've had the cake, but never stepped foot on the island itself.

I have it in my plans to take the ferry to Smith Island too.

That would be to consider it as a possible meet destination, which may not be practical in one day because of the schedules that the ferries adhere to (unless you own or charter a boat or aircraft, it is not really possible to visit Tangier and Smith Island in one day).

"Captain Jason II Smith Island Cruises
Captain Larry Laird
410-425-4471 home, 410-251-4954 cell
PO Box 205, Tylerton, MD 21866
Available for regularly scheduled trips to and from Smith Island and special charters, including sunset cruises and trips from Smith Island to Tangier Island, VA. Also carries freight. Kayak groups welcomed.
$25 round trip on same day. $20 one way, or $40 for round trip on separate days. No reservation required. Pay on board."

Sounds like there are ways.

cpzilliacus

#6
Quote from: Alps on September 13, 2016, 06:42:53 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 13, 2016, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on September 12, 2016, 01:00:13 PM
I'd rather go to Smith Island on the MD side.  I've had the cake, but never stepped foot on the island itself.

I have it in my plans to take the ferry to Smith Island too.

That would be to consider it as a possible meet destination, which may not be practical in one day because of the schedules that the ferries adhere to (unless you own or charter a boat or aircraft, it is not really possible to visit Tangier and Smith Island in one day).

"Captain Jason II Smith Island Cruises
Captain Larry Laird
410-425-4471 home, 410-251-4954 cell
PO Box 205, Tylerton, MD 21866
Available for regularly scheduled trips to and from Smith Island and special charters, including sunset cruises and trips from Smith Island to Tangier Island, VA. Also carries freight. Kayak groups welcomed.
$25 round trip on same day. $20 one way, or $40 for round trip on separate days. No reservation required. Pay on board."

Sounds like there are ways.

There are indeed ways.  But in order to visit both, the meet would need to charter his vessel (or a vessel belonging to someone else), from what I have been told (prices above are for regularly-scheduled trips). 

Chartering a boat is not supposed to be cheap, but I may give Captain Larry Laird a call and discuss anyway, because I think at least some participants in meet would be interested in visiting both islands (also keep in mind that Smith Island has two "towns," Ewell and Tylerton (Ewell is considered the larger of the two), which are not connected to each other by bridge or dry land), even though both are considered Smith Island.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

ixnay

Quote from: Rothman on September 12, 2016, 01:00:13 PM
I'd rather go to Smith Island on the MD side.  I've had the cake, but never stepped foot on the island itself.

I'm the opposite of you (been on Smith Island, but not had the cake).  I've been on Tangier, too.

BTW the southern tip of Smith Island is in VA.

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

Alps

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 13, 2016, 11:51:38 PM
Quote from: Alps on September 13, 2016, 06:42:53 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 13, 2016, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on September 12, 2016, 01:00:13 PM
I'd rather go to Smith Island on the MD side.  I've had the cake, but never stepped foot on the island itself.

I have it in my plans to take the ferry to Smith Island too.

That would be to consider it as a possible meet destination, which may not be practical in one day because of the schedules that the ferries adhere to (unless you own or charter a boat or aircraft, it is not really possible to visit Tangier and Smith Island in one day).

"Captain Jason II Smith Island Cruises
Captain Larry Laird
410-425-4471 home, 410-251-4954 cell
PO Box 205, Tylerton, MD 21866
Available for regularly scheduled trips to and from Smith Island and special charters, including sunset cruises and trips from Smith Island to Tangier Island, VA. Also carries freight. Kayak groups welcomed.
$25 round trip on same day. $20 one way, or $40 for round trip on separate days. No reservation required. Pay on board."

Sounds like there are ways.

There are indeed ways.  But in order to visit both, the meet would need to charter his vessel (or a vessel belonging to someone else), from what I have been told (prices above are for regularly-scheduled trips). 

Chartering a boat is not supposed to be cheap, but I may give Captain Larry Laird a call and discuss anyway, because I think at least some participants in meet would be interested in visiting both islands (also keep in mind that Smith Island has two "towns," Ewell and Tylerton (Ewell is considered the larger of the two), which are not connected to each other by bridge or dry land), even though both are considered Smith Island.
I would totally be interested for a double-digit price.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Alps on September 14, 2016, 10:40:16 PM
I would totally be interested for a double-digit price.

That is useful.  Thank you.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Avalanchez71


cpzilliacus

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on September 15, 2016, 12:14:59 PM
Single digits sound nicer. :awesomeface:

Not likely to happen.  The round-trip one-day fare to either island is over $20.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: ixnay on September 14, 2016, 07:20:55 AM
BTW the southern tip of Smith Island is in VA.

ixnay

You are correct.  There appears to be nobody actually living on the Virginia part of Smith Island.

The way that the state line between Maryland and Virginia crosses the Chesapeake Bay is very strange, and I think it may date back to before 1776, in colonial times, which would imply that it was drawn by the British government in London.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Have added images from Smith Island, Maryland in addition to Tangier, Virginia to the Facebook album.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

The Nature Boy

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 15, 2016, 04:26:39 PM
Quote from: ixnay on September 14, 2016, 07:20:55 AM
BTW the southern tip of Smith Island is in VA.

ixnay

You are correct.  There appears to be nobody actually living on the Virginia part of Smith Island.

The way that the state line between Maryland and Virginia crosses the Chesapeake Bay is very strange, and I think it may date back to before 1776, in colonial times, which would imply that it was drawn by the British government in London.

It's likely a quirk of the original charter issued to Lord Baltimore in 1632 that established the Maryland colony. Given how poorly surveyed (and virtually unknown) North America was to the Europeans at the time, the charter likely just designated some arbitrary point as the VA/MD border and just continued that line east without regard for what that line ran through.

cpzilliacus

#15
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 26, 2016, 09:03:08 AM
It's likely a quirk of the original charter issued to Lord Baltimore in 1632 that established the Maryland colony. Given how poorly surveyed (and virtually unknown) North America was to the Europeans at the time, the charter likely just designated some arbitrary point as the VA/MD border and just continued that line east without regard for what that line ran through.

The "low water mark" of the Potomac River to its "first fountain" (most-distant headwaters) was logical enough, but they  got that wrong too, since the most-distant headwaters of the Potomac are in Highland County, Virginia (a stream called the Laurel Fork of the North Fork South Branch of the Potomac is farther west than Fairfax Stone, generally accepted as the most-distant headwaters of the Potomac and used for determining Maryland's southern and western borders).  There's a Maryland Historical Society Magazine that discusses this in some detail that I will post later.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

ixnay

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 26, 2016, 06:52:42 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 26, 2016, 09:03:08 AM
It's likely a quirk of the original charter issued to Lord Baltimore in 1632 that established the Maryland colony. Given how poorly surveyed (and virtually unknown) North America was to the Europeans at the time, the charter likely just designated some arbitrary point as the VA/MD border and just continued that line east without regard for what that line ran through.

The "low water mark" of the Potomac River to its "first fountain" (most-distant headwaters) was logical enough, but they  got that wrong too, since the most-distant headwaters of the Potomac are in Highland County, Virginia (a stream called the Laurel Fork of the South Branch of the Potomac is farther west than Fairfax Stone, generally accepted as the most-distant headwaters of the Potomac).  There's a Maryland Historical Society Magazine that discusses this in some detail that I will post later.

"How Two (or Three) States Got Their Shapes" :D (The "Three" refers to West Virginia which was carved from Virginia under much different circumstances)

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: ixnay on September 26, 2016, 07:23:26 PM
"How Two (or Three) States Got Their Shapes" :D (The "Three" refers to West Virginia which was carved from Virginia under much different circumstances)

ixnay

Were Maryland to demand and get the land north of the real "first fountain" of the Potomac (as the southwest corner of the state (not going to happen, BTW)), it would cut West Virginia (as it currently exists) in two.

Baltimore Sun article from the 1990's: here.

Longer scholarly article about Maryland's border along the Potomac River:
The Potomac River and Maryland's Boundaries (.pdf, from 1985).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Alps

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 27, 2016, 12:15:24 PM
Quote from: ixnay on September 26, 2016, 07:23:26 PM
"How Two (or Three) States Got Their Shapes" :D (The "Three" refers to West Virginia which was carved from Virginia under much different circumstances)

ixnay

Were Maryland to demand and get the land north of the real "first fountain" of the Potomac (as the southwest corner of the state (not going to happen, BTW)), it would cut West Virginia (as it currently exists) in two.

Baltimore Sun article from the 1990's: here.

Longer scholarly article about Maryland's border along the Potomac River:
The Potomac River and Maryland's Boundaries (.pdf, from 1985).
Not seeing a great map, but it looks like the Potomac doesn't quite bisect the panhandle. If I look at a very large scale map.

cpzilliacus

#19
Quote from: Alps on September 27, 2016, 04:55:55 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 27, 2016, 12:15:24 PM
Quote from: ixnay on September 26, 2016, 07:23:26 PM
"How Two (or Three) States Got Their Shapes" :D (The "Three" refers to West Virginia which was carved from Virginia under much different circumstances)

ixnay

Were Maryland to demand and get the land north of the real "first fountain" of the Potomac (as the southwest corner of the state (not going to happen, BTW)), it would cut West Virginia (as it currently exists) in two.

Baltimore Sun article from the 1990's: here.

Longer scholarly article about Maryland's border along the Potomac River:
The Potomac River and Maryland's Boundaries (.pdf, from 1985).
Not seeing a great map, but it looks like the Potomac doesn't quite bisect the panhandle. If I look at a very large scale map.

It does.  The headwaters of the Laurel Fork of the North Fork South Branch Potomac River are in Highland County, Virginia, south of U.S. 250 near the West Virginia/Virginia border (38°26'16.0"N 79°41'15.0"W). There is at least one other tributary of the South Branch of the Potomac that has its headwaters in Highland County as well.

Compare and contrast with the "accepted" source of the North Branch of the Potomac River at Fairfax Stone (39°11'42.0"N 79°29'15.0"W).

Everything west of the Potomac River's tributary streams (but east of a line drawn straight north from the headwaters of the Laurel Fork to Pennsylvania) should have been Maryland (had this been known when the Crown granted those lands to Lord Baltimore, or had Maryland pressed their claim that this was the true "first fountain" of the Potomac River watershed, which it apparently is).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

froggie

QuoteIt does.  The headwaters of the Laurel Fork of the North Fork South Branch Potomac River are in Highland County, Virginia, south of U.S. 250 near the West Virginia/Virginia border (38°26'16.0"N 79°41'15.0"W). There is at least one other tributary of the South Branch of the Potomac that has its headwaters in Highland County as well.

The main leg of the South Branch does...just east of Hightown.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on September 28, 2016, 08:49:57 PM
The main leg of the South Branch does...just east of Hightown.

Its headwaters appear to be here, which Google says is Blue Grass, Virginia.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

froggie

If you follow the topography (as I have in the field), it actually gets just southeast of US 250.  And Hightown is much closer than Blue Grass.

cpzilliacus

#23
Quote from: froggie on September 29, 2016, 08:45:40 AM
If you follow the topography (as I have in the field), it actually gets just southeast of US 250.  And Hightown is much closer than Blue Grass.

Agreed regarding topography.  There does seem to be at least a part-time stream that runs south of the point that I marked.  Though at some point South of U.S. 250 you get to a stream that is clearly part of the James River watershed.

The Laurel Fork definitely goes south of U.S. 250 (and I find it amusing that between the South Branch and the Laurel Fork are two tributaries of the James River) - and when the road crosses the West Virginia/Virginia line (and the Eastern Continental Divide), there's the Ohio River/Mississippi River watershed.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.