2015 DENVER/FRONT RANGE ROADMEET - MAY 30, 2015

[corco]

I have posted the final meet tour here:
http://www.corcohighways.org/2015FRONTRANGEMEETFINAL.pdf

Thanks everybody for your patience.

[oscar]

Here is my thought right now, copied from facebook:
Sorry to jerk folks around - soliciting feedback on an idea in light of Evans being closed and Red Cliff Arch being so far out. Would this meet tour be more preferable?

1. Lunch at Spot Diner
2. I-70 viaduct
3. Head via Morrison and Evergreen to I-70
4. Loveland Pass
5. Idaho Spgs pony truss
6. Abandoned tunnel no. 4
7. Mt Lookout

This would be a lot less driving and should shave a couple hours off the meet tour. I'm familiar with all the stood except the viaduct, but will drive under and find a spot this evening.

Let me know if this would be preferable to pursue and we can do that. I'll have time to rewrite the meet tour today.

This seems to work better.  But the arrival back in Golden (scheduled to be 7:35pm, but likely to be later with the usual delays) is still pretty late (especially for me), so I suggest looking for further trims, especially shortening the winding route between stops 1 and 2.

[Brandon]

Thank you Corco for such a great meet!

I took I-55 south to I-72 west out past Hannibal onto US-36.  Then, I went south on I-35, I-70, I-670, back to I-35 to complete the alphabet loop, and then I-35 south the I-635 north to finish I-35 in Missouri.  From there, I-70 west to WaKeeney for the night.

Next day, I-70 west to C-58 into Golden.  The meet was great, and I now have finished I-70 from Cove Fort to Frederick, MD.  Just have the little bit from there to I-695 to complete.  Then, on the way out, it was C-58 to I-70 to I-76 to Brush for the night.

Last day, I used I-76 to I-80 to get back with two twists.  I clinched I-680 in Nebraska and Iowa, and then I-235 in Des Moines.

Just a few photos below.

Interesting arrow in Lincoln, IL.


Barrelman in Hannibal, MO, by the MoDOT district office.


Angled arrows in Hannibal, US-61 and US-36.


Bathroom at the Love's Truck Stop in Denver we had to use.  Women's is in side, this is the men's.


Meet photo at 11,992 feet above sea level, the highest meet photo taken to date.


It was an official Alanland meet.


Yes, this is how Nebraska signs their gore points.


I-680 was full of old demountable and button copy signage north of US-6.

[bandit957]

I wonder if bunker blasts were more likely at 11,992 feet.

[SSOWorld]

I wonder if bunker blasts were more likely at 11,992 feet.

They'd travel faster in the wind

[Alps]

I wonder if bunker blasts were more likely at 11,992 feet.

Definitely yes. You have air trapped inside at base pressure, held back by the pressure at that elevation. When you go up another mile, the air pressure outside is lower, but the air inside you is the same pressure, so it WILL come out. Very amusingly and loudly.

[hbelkins]

Meet photo at 11,992 feet above sea level, the highest meet photo taken to date.

Well, you WERE in Colorado, after all. 

[oscar]

Meet photo at 11,992 feet above sea level, the highest meet photo taken to date.

Well, you WERE in Colorado, after all. 

But AFAIK we didn't for the meet photo work in any of the other "high" Colorado has lately been known for. Of course, what people smoked before or after the meet is their own business. And when I return to Colorado tomorrow (after roaming around Wyoming and some neighboring states), who knows what I'll partake before heading home?

[Duke87]

I wonder if bunker blasts were more likely at 11,992 feet.

Definitely yes. You have air trapped inside at base pressure, held back by the pressure at that elevation. When you go up another mile, the air pressure outside is lower, but the air inside you is the same pressure, so it WILL come out. Very amusingly and loudly.

I'm pretty sure I expelled as much gas this past Saturday as I usually do in an entire week.

[SSOWorld]

Too bad it's not high enough that gravity was reduced - could have had a few launches due to the gas.

[Dougtone]

I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.

On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.

[A.J. Bertin]

I had an absolutely fantastic time on this meet. I got to clinch quite a bit of new Interstate highway mileage, collected 45 new counties, visited one new state for me (Kansas), explored multiple cities, and got to hang out with a great group of guys. Thanks to David for hosting this meet!

Sam Scholtens and I left the Grand Rapids MI area on Wednesday evening. We had dinner in Matteson IL (a Chicago suburb) with Brandon Gorte and Larry Harvilla before staying overnight in nearby Monee. On Thursday we took I-57 to I-72 (driving I-72 in its entirety), having lunch in Hannibal MO, and then taking U.S. 61 south(east) to I-70 before exploring the Kansas City area and staying overnight there. I did not like I-70 across Missouri. I-70 really needs to be 6 lanes across the entire state. Kansas City was awesome with quite a nice freeway network. Sam and I clinched I-470, I-670, and I-635 - plus driving on some other freeways in the area including parts of U.S. 71, U.S. 69, and I-29/35.

We absolutely loved driving I-70 across Kansas. The traffic was light, and it was truly impressive seeing that much open plain with absolutely nothing. It was a very relaxing and enjoyable drive. I-70 in eastern Colorado was just as nice, but then traffic got heavier as we approached metro Denver. We unfortunately arrived in the Denver area around rush hour, and the traffic was absolutely horrendous. We hung out that evening with Cody Goodman and then, later, with Jason Ilyes.

The tour on Saturday was a blast! I had the opportunity to go exploring around some of the Denver-area freeways (and downtown Denver) early Saturday morning before the meet started. This was only my second visit to Denver, and I was just in awe at how beautiful that place is - not to mention Loveland Pass during the tour. It was sad to leave on Sunday morning. A few of us had breakfast together before Sam and I had to say goodbye and start the long drive back to Michigan. Sam and I were impressed with I-76 in eastern Colorado, but I-80 in Nebraska is not nearly as fun to drive on as I-70 is across Kansas. Sam and I stayed in the Des Moines area on Sunday night and got to explore that city for the first time. It's a very nice city, but our tour of it was very quick - a definite whirlwind.

The drive back to Michigan on Monday was rather uneventful. The only interesting thing I can really say about it was that it felt quite different driving across those states on I-80 eastbound heading home. It seems like I'm always taking I-80 westbound in Illinois (especially having left Michigan).

It was great seeing everyone! Thanks again, David, for a great time.

[Alps]

I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.

On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.

Caused by the spirited driving of one or more of our troupe, no doubt.

[Dougtone]

I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.

On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.

Caused by the spirited driving of one or more of our troupe, no doubt.

Based on the conversation here, I blame the avalanche on a bunker blast.

[SSOWorld]

I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.

On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.

Caused by the spirited driving of one or more of our troupe, no doubt.

Based on the conversation here, I blame the avalanche on a bunker blast.

[Brandon]

I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.

On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.

Caused by the spirited driving of one or more of our troupe, no doubt.

One could say that it was rather spirited driving.  Damn, I loved those hairpin turns! 

[jpi]

I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.

On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.

Caused by the spirited driving of one or more of our troupe, no doubt.

One could say that it was rather spirited driving.  Damn, I loved those hairpin turns! 

Marc and I noticed I tnink he was getting nearly car sick a few times, not me :-)

[J N Winkler]

I wanted to thank Corco for organizing the meet and the driving tour, both of which I felt were successful.  Having planned one of the latter, I know what a lot of work it is to scout out stops and devise a plausible driving schedule for just one itinerary, and in the end this had to be done three times.  I used the second itinerary to plan stops at Gilman and the Red Cliff Arch Bridge, and I am holding the first in reserve for when Mount Evans reopens.

My own trip to Colorado was fairly short, involving five days and four nights away from Wichita and 1642 total miles of driving in my own car.  (This does not include the ride-along with Scott Kuznicki in his BMW 5-Series for a pre-meet tour and the driving tour itself, for both of which I thank him.)  I went no further west than Glenwood Springs.

My basic itinerary to Denver entailed using K-96 and US 183 out of Wichita, US 40 between Oakley and Limon, and SH 86 and I-25 east and south of Denver, with the goal of limiting travel on I-70 to 88 miles out of 532 (81 in Kansas and 7 in Colorado).  I did take I-70 between Denver and Glenwood Springs, but relied on SH 82 and US 24 to connect back eastward to Colorado Springs via Independence Pass, and returned to Kansas by way of SH 94, SH 71, US 50, and US 400 from Granada onward, with a detour between La Junta and Las Animas to visit Bent's Old Fort.  For the dose of fourteener driving I missed at Mount Evans, I attempted the Pikes Peak Toll Road, but got no further than 12,780 feet (mile 16 of 19) since the upper three miles were closed owing to bad weather at the summit.

In terms of driving, I-70 through the Colorado Rockies was a pleasant surprise when tackled in a first-generation Saturn S-Series DOHC automatic, largely because the high altitude (which reduced engine torque) and full-synthetic ATF in the transmission sump kept kickdowns smooth, while actuation of the cruise control system by solenoid rather than vacuum diaphragm allowed the set speed to be held within tight limits.  I was able to engage cruise pretty much all the way from urban Denver to the west side of Vail Pass, where the landscape becomes drier and the speed limit goes up to 75 but there are numerous curves with reduced advisory speeds, usually 70 with occasional sprinkles of 65, 60, and even 55.  On the long sustained climb out of Denver, I actually had to swing into the left lane frequently since my car had far fewer problems holding the 65 limit than most of the others on the road.

I had been particularly dreading this drive because I remembered how miserable it was in a 1986 Nissan Maxima with vacuum-actuated cruise control and bog-standard, plain-jane conventional Dexron III transmission fluid, which shears down pretty badly even over a 30,000-mile drain and fill interval.  This was the first time driving this part of I-70 actually felt like being on vacation.

On my way back through Colorado Springs, I encountered a number of road-related features of interest, for which I have StreetView links:

Split-level section of SH 82 between Snowmass and Aspen (also, owing to heavy commuter traffic between Aspen and its bedroom communities further down the Roaring Fork River valley, the right-hand lane of SH 82 in both directions is a peak-hour HOV/bus lane)

Median canal section of 31st Street in Colorado Springs just north of US 24

Use of doubled double yellow centerlines along Platte Street near downtown Colorado Springs to enforce RIRO and prohibit direct crossing at most side streets (Platte Street is the extension of the Limon-Colorado Springs leg of US 24 into the latter city, and was probably the actual routing of US 24 before a freeway-expressway bypass was built to the south)

Platte Street railroad underpass (probably Art Deco style) near downtown Colorado Springs, probably now carrying a trail conversion

"No Motorist Services Next 95 Miles" on SH 94 just east of Ellicott, Colorado (the distance to Kit Carson, Colorado, which does have the full complement of motorist services, is actually 90 miles along SH 94 and US 287; at least one of the other wide spots in the road along SH 94 between Ellicott and SH 71--either Yoder or Rush--has a sign indicating food and phones are available)

Also, CDOT has quite viciously worded signs aimed at vehicles longer than 35 feet that attempt to use SH 82 over Independence Pass; I have photos, but sadly no StreetView links.  The pass (at 12,095 feet) still has solid snow cover everywhere except the road itself and the parking lot at the summit.

[oscar]

Here's an abbreviated (well, less long-winded than my usual) trip report, covering the trip out to Denver ahd another week of road-tripping thereafter. Right now, I'm cooling my jets (so to speak) at Valley View Hot Springs in southern Colorado for a few more days, before taking a southerly route (TBD) the rest of the way home.

My trip out to the meet took a week and covered about 4600 miles. Anthony and Alyssa drove from farther away than I did, and they did some sidewinding and loop-de-loops like I did, so I'm not sure how my mileage compares to theirs.

Basically, I took Interstates to Cleveland, passing through the city on surface roads during protests over acquittal of a policeman charged with killing two civilians. Reportedly part of the road I took past downtown Cleveland, OH 2, was briefly closed by protesters either before or after I drove through, so I got lucky there.

From there, in Toledo I started down a long stretch of US 24 to Missouri I hadn't previously covered. Then flipping back and forth between US 24 and US 40 in western Missouri and eastern Kansas for uncovered segments of those routes. Then shot west on I-70 (short detour over US 36, which was marginally less boring than I-70 east of Denver), through Denver to Utah, then curling back through Idaho and Wyoming to the meet.

After the meet, I went back to Wyoming, mainly to revisit Yellowstone. Heading back out eastn from the park, I physically "hit the wall" around Cody WY. That threw off the rest of my itinerary back through Denver to southern Colorado, losing a day in the process. The post-meet travel so far has added about another 2800 miles to my journey.

Some brief notes along the way:

-- The 80 mph speed limit on much of I-80 through Wyoming was less helpful than I'd hoped, with too many trucks slowly passing each other. But it was less congested on 80mph stretches of I-15 in Idaho and I-25 in Wyoming, where I could set my cruise control for the speed I wanted with only occasional taps of the brake to deal with slower traffic. 

-- The other thing I found is that my Prius wasn't too good at taking advantage of the higher speed limits. Basically, to maintain speeds in the 80-85mph range, my car's gas engine needed help from the hybrid electric motor, which alas wasn't always forthcoming since the hybrid battery was often drained by the high speeds even on slight inclines. When I get down to lower altitudes, I'll have to see whether my car more gracefully handles higher speeds; or maybe it's just my hybrid battery is getting old (at over 210,000 miles).

-- While Colorado likes "implied multiplexes" on its Interstates (like no US 36 signs between where it joins I-70 in eastern Colorado until the routes split in Denver), Wyoming is very good at signing its multiplexes. Most notable is the US 26/US 89/US 189/US 191 multiplex south of Jackson WY (including a useless US 189 multiplex, which could be truncated well south of Jackson where it first meets US 191 at Daniel Junction).

Major route clinches so far:  I-215 in Salt Lake City (I'd somehow managed to miss a segment at its east end on many past trips to or through SLC); US 24, 40, 91, and 189 overall; US 26, 191, and 287 in Wyoming; US 20 in Idaho and Montana; and US 36, 85, 285, and 287 in Colorado. The rest of my trip home will probably clinch I-49 (new segment in AR and LA), I-485, and maybe US 11, though I-41 in WI and the latest US 48 (Corridor H) extension will probably be on another trip later this summer, and the new I-169 in south Texas is so far off my usual cross-country routes that it may take awhile for me to get back down there.

BTW, my attempt at a group meet photo at Loveland Pass completely failed, as I thought (I was able to fix my camera later). Good that Brandon, at least, had better luck than I did.

[oscar]

Following up on earlier discussion on whether my or Cody's Priuses could've made the climb to the Mt. Evans summit:

Starting my trip home (still on the way), I took my Prius up the Pikes Peak toll road, right after enough heavy snow had been cleared that morning from the summit and the upper four miles of the 20-mile road. We made it to the top, without much trouble:



The Pikes Peak summit is only a few dozen feet lower than the parking lot at the top of Mt. Evans. It helped that I wasn't carrying passengers, though I did have all my luggage with me. I also stopped at two visitor centers/gift shops along the way, and I ran the engine a little to recharge the hybrid battery (which was drained almost as soon as I continued my ascent).

My brakes overheated a little bit on the way down, and the ranger at the brake check station about 2700 feet elevation below the summit put my car (and others) in the "penalty box" to let our brakes cool down for a few minutes before continuing our descents. The "engine braking" mode for the Prius' continuously variable transmission was not quite as good as going down in first gear, but close enough.

On my way up, past the brake check station, I saw a newer-model Prius coming down from the summit. The summit was crowded both with people driving up and people taking the cog railroad from Manitou Springs. My guess is that many of the former decided to drive up at the last minute, after impatiently waiting for word that the road to the summit had finally reopened.

[J N Winkler]

My brakes overheated a little bit on the way down, and the ranger at the brake check station about 2700 feet elevation below the summit put my car (and others) in the "penalty box" to let our brakes cool down for a few minutes before continuing our descents. The "engine braking" mode for the Prius' continuously variable transmission was not quite as good as going down in first gear, but close enough.

When I passed through this station on the way down and the ranger pointed his infrared sensing gun at my left front wheel, I was cleared to go straight away, which was a pleasant surprise for a car that cannot be held lower than second gear.

However, I attempted Pikes Peak on a weekday when the final three miles to the summit were closed, so there was very little traffic.  The only vehicle in my way as I was trying to ride down the straights with engine braking alone (I think my speed topped out at 35 MPH in 2nd) was a black SUV with Massachusetts plates, whose driver had the courtesy and good sense to pull over.

The Pikes Peak Toll Road has an average grade of 6.7%, and a maximum grade of 8%.  In contrast, the Mount Evans Highway from Echo Lake to the summit parking lot has an average grade of about 5%, but a maximum grade of 15.6%.  It may be that hybrids find Mount Evans more difficult because steep grades are concentrated along a comparatively small fraction of the mileage.  Pikes Peak is much more of a steady climb since the grades have few interruptions--just the reservoir crossing and the brake check area come to mind.

Travelers at Pikes Peak receive a brochure on toll payment which advises them that the 38-mile roundtrip will consume 80 miles' worth of fuel on the level.  In my case, the tank that included my 32-mile transit (a climb and descent of about 5,000 feet) averaged out to 37 MPG, like the tank before it, which had nothing more challenging than the I-70 grades and Independence Pass.  My transmission does have an unusual feature that might have aided efficiency--torque converter lockup in all gears, not just the highest one or two--but actually I would expect similar results with other cars not so equipped, since in Colorado the fuel efficiency gain of generally high altitude seems to overpower the losses associated with climbing and descending grades.

Pikes Peak did punish the cooling system.  By design, it has an electric radiator fan that comes on only when the A/C is engaged or coolant temperature climbs to midway between the thermostat opening and boilover temperatures.  I live in a city that has few problems with congestion and most of my travel in major metropolitan areas occurs off-peak, so I rarely see engine temperatures reach the fan-on point.  As my car climbed Pikes Peak, however, the temperature gauge needle bounced off the fan-on point at least three times.  The last time this behavior occurred was on a Saturday in September 2014 when a slow-moving traffic jam caught me trying to transit the Golden Gate Bridge and the Bay Bridge east span in one driving loop.

[Duke87]

The day after the meet I took my car with its aforementioned sucky low gear over Berthould Pass (US 40, elevation 11,307). Going down westbound was not particularly challenging and I made it down with minimal use of my brakes. But I annoyed a few native Coloradoans in the process since I accomplished this lack of braking primarily by lack of using the gas pedal, even if it meant letting my car slowly roll from 20 up to 45 on straightaways while other drivers passed me. I of course was not able to stay geared down the whole time but I've gotten comfortable with shifting from D to L and back to D if necessary. Engine never redlined, I have to assume the computer controlling the CVT is programmed to not let that happen.

I did have a bag of chips blow open in the back seat though.


I'll spare everyone the writeup of all 16 days of my trip. But I will say it was loads of fun and this definitely raises the bar for road meets, pushing them to places they have never seen the likes of before.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

The day after the meet I took my car with its aforementioned sucky low gear over Berthould Pass (US 40, elevation 11,307). Going down westbound was not particularly challenging and I made it down with minimal use of my brakes. But I annoyed a few native Coloradoans in the process since I accomplished this lack of braking primarily by lack of using the gas pedal, even if it meant letting my car slowly roll from 20 up to 45 on straightaways while other drivers passed me. I of course was not able to stay geared down the whole time but I've gotten comfortable with shifting from D to L and back to D if necessary. Engine never redlined, I have to assume the computer controlling the CVT is programmed to not let that happen.

I did have a bag of chips blow open in the back seat though.

I also drove over Berthoud Pass on my first full day out there the day before the meet. It was unplanned, as I basically decided "I'm just gonna drive where I feel like it" without any prior planning. How you did it was pretty much how I handled the drive; I had never driven over a mountain pass before and didn't know how I was supposed to handle it. In addition if the car only wanted to give me 35 in the 40 zone going uphill, so be it.

However when I drove US 550, I was going to be extra cautious and I did downshift for the three passes on that route.

[J N Winkler]

The day after the meet I took my car with its aforementioned sucky low gear over Berthoud Pass (US 40, elevation 11,307). Going down westbound was not particularly challenging and I made it down with minimal use of my brakes. But I annoyed a few native Coloradoans in the process since I accomplished this lack of braking primarily by lack of using the gas pedal, even if it meant letting my car slowly roll from 20 up to 45 on straightaways while other drivers passed me. I of course was not able to stay geared down the whole time but I've gotten comfortable with shifting from D to L and back to D if necessary. Engine never redlined, I have to assume the computer controlling the CVT is programmed to not let that happen.

It is better to rely on engine braking rather than the brakes when gaining experience descending long downgrades, even if this does annoy the natives.  Especially when driving an automatic, relying first on engine braking shows more savvy than simply riding the brakes.  It takes time to build the route and car knowledge required to attempt less conservative approaches to descending hills, such as allowing speed to build on the straights and braking only for curves.

I know of no example of an electronically controlled automatic transmission that will permit downshifts that would redline the engine.

Many (but not all) native Coloradans like to complain about flatland tourist drivers, but in so doing the kvetchers forget that Colorado residents are more likely to be familiar with the major mountain passes and to have more opportunities to practice mountain driving.  Moreover, much of the stereotypical flatland behavior is actually exhibited by cars with Colorado plates, and inevitably some of it flows from technical limitations rather than driver naïvete.

[Alps]

I tend to do exactly as Mr. Winkler suggests - coast the straights and brake the curves. No issues in the hairpins. I also did gear down, but maybe only to 3rd or 4th (depending on steepness and distance between curves).