How do you define the Midwest?

[minneha]

I don't consider the UP, or northern Minnesota/Wisconsin to be Midwestern. Once you go north into the seemingly endless forests of pine and spruce, it feels like you're in a very different area.

The forested areas in the northern Midwest might feel different than the farming areas in the central Midwest, but it's all still the Midwest. This is why I like to use the Census Bureau's 12-state region as the definition of the Midwest. It keeps it simple. If it's in that 12-state region, it's the Midwest. If it's outside of that 12-state region, it's not the Midwest. Otherwise, people engage in gatekeeping about what is and is not the Midwest. States in the Midwest can have different landscapes and still all be in the Midwest.

[Flint1979]

How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?

[Rothman]

How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?

Because non-Michiganders say so!

[MikieTimT]

And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".

A native will tell you Arkansas is definitively southern.

As a native Arkansan, I can say that most of Arkansas is definitely southern.  But I can also say that the mountainous areas are more like Appalachia and the Ozark Plateau portions of NWA are more like the midwest with all of the immigration the past 3 decades.

Arkansas ... is tough to throw into a single bucket ... NWA feels almost midwestern in comparison with Tulsa and KC influencing it more than Little Rock.

Are you an Arkansas native? 

Yup, my entire life.  However, only lived in the western and northwestern parts, but travel to LR and Jonesboro multiple times a year to take care of onsite IT work for a client.

[Flint1979]

How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?

Because non-Michiganders say so!

Well it is a part of the Midwest no matter who says it is or isn't.

[Flint1979]

The lower Peninsula is part of the Midwest and the Upper Peninsula goes farther west than the lower Peninsula does and borders Wisconsin what part of the country do you think Wisconsin's in?

[fhmiii]

A poll was just conducted, and out of 11,000 respondents...



https://www.kcur.org/news/2023-10-18/where-is-midwest-states-usa-definition-middle-west

Someone has responded to this map.  They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ

[JayhawkCO]

Someone has responded to this map.  They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ

As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.

[webny99]

How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?

Because non-Michiganders say so!

Well it is a part of the Midwest no matter who says it is or isn't.

No one is disputing that it is technically part of the Midwest (at least according to the Census Bureau's definition) by virtue of being part of Michigan, but it was part of a more nuanced conversation about the fact that 15% of Michiganders say they don't live in the Midwest.

[fhmiii]

Someone has responded to this map.  They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ

As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.

No.  While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City.  I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains."  It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density.  While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000.  You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.

And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? 

[JayhawkCO]

Someone has responded to this map.  They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ

As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.

No.  While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City.  I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains."  It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density.  While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000.  You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.

And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? 

Sure, sure. But, at least for me, population density doesn't make any difference to a culture. A little town in central Kansas is going to feel an awful lot like a little town in central Indiana.

[Rothman]

Someone has responded to this map.  They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ

As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.

No.  While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City.  I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains."  It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density.  While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000.  You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.

And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? 

MO is its own crazy ball of wax when it comes to which region it should be in.

[JayhawkCO]

Someone has responded to this map.  They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ

As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.

No.  While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City.  I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains."  It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density.  While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000.  You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.

And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? 

MO is its own crazy ball of wax when it comes to which region it should be in.

Agreed. If I were to exclude a state between the two, Missouri has parts of it that are was less Midwestern than anything in Kansas.

[bm7]

The lower Peninsula is part of the Midwest and the Upper Peninsula goes farther west than the lower Peninsula does and borders Wisconsin what part of the country do you think Wisconsin's in?

As I said in my previous post, I don't personally consider the northern part of Wisconsin (if I had to pick a line, I'd say that northern is anything north of Merrill or Marinette) to be in the Midwest. The rest of the state is still Midwestern.

[Scott5114]

How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?

Because non-Michiganders say so!

Well it is a part of the Midwest no matter who says it is or isn't.

No one is disputing that it is technically part of the Midwest (at least according to the Census Bureau's definition) by virtue of being part of Michigan, but it was part of a more nuanced conversation about the fact that 15% of Michiganders say they don't live in the Midwest.

There is a term in psephology that I don't quite remember, and I'm having a hard time looking up, that basically refers to a small percentage of every poll's respondents whose answers are total nonsense. This is because the respondent doesn't correctly understand the question, because they are not competent to answer it, or because they are straight up trolling the pollster.

Some professional pollsters have caught onto this and include calibration questions to flag bad respondents and not count those responses. For example, one poll asked respondents "Have you ever been decapitated?" 4% said yes, they had.

Anyway, keep in mind that some of the "no" responses in clearly-Midwestern states may be a result of that.

[Flint1979]

How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?

Because non-Michiganders say so!

Well it is a part of the Midwest no matter who says it is or isn't.

No one is disputing that it is technically part of the Midwest (at least according to the Census Bureau's definition) by virtue of being part of Michigan, but it was part of a more nuanced conversation about the fact that 15% of Michiganders say they don't live in the Midwest.

Well that 15% of Michiganians (I hate the term Michiganders due to the fact that recent governor signed it into law that refers to residents as Michiganders and we don't need a governor deciding what we get called) is only 1.5 million people of the state. I live in Saginaw which is in the middle of the state and I consider myself in the Midwest and I've actually asked several different people since this post has been going on and they agree with me. The U.P. is more Midwest than the L.P. is. Like in Ironwood I would indeed feel like I was in the Midwest. It's the Upper Midwest and Michigan has never been conisdered an east coast state so I dunno it's an opinion thing I guess but I just don't see how we're not in the Midwest.

[Flint1979]

The lower Peninsula is part of the Midwest and the Upper Peninsula goes farther west than the lower Peninsula does and borders Wisconsin what part of the country do you think Wisconsin's in?

As I said in my previous post, I don't personally consider the northern part of Wisconsin (if I had to pick a line, I'd say that northern is anything north of Merrill or Marinette) to be in the Midwest. The rest of the state is still Midwestern.

The whole state is in the Midwest. The terrain of the area doesn't make it any less of the Midwest than somewhere in Illinois or Iowa.

[JayhawkCO]

The lower Peninsula is part of the Midwest and the Upper Peninsula goes farther west than the lower Peninsula does and borders Wisconsin what part of the country do you think Wisconsin's in?

As I said in my previous post, I don't personally consider the northern part of Wisconsin (if I had to pick a line, I'd say that northern is anything north of Merrill or Marinette) to be in the Midwest. The rest of the state is still Midwestern.

The whole state is in the Midwest. The terrain of the area doesn't make it any less of the Midwest than somewhere in Illinois or Iowa.

Agreed. Up North in Minnesota isn't all that different culturally to someone who lives in Albert Lea. Either way, you're stuck being a Vikings fan and you go to the State Fair every year and look at butter sculptures.

[bm7]

If Minnesota annexed part of Ontario, would those new areas become Midwestern?

[JayhawkCO]

If Minnesota annexed part of Ontario, would those new areas become Midwestern?

Canada has different cultural traditions than the U.S., even in border areas. So, they wouldn't immediately, no. Over time? Sure, possibly.

[webny99]

How is the U.P. not part of the Midwest?

Because non-Michiganders say so!

Well it is a part of the Midwest no matter who says it is or isn't.

No one is disputing that it is technically part of the Midwest (at least according to the Census Bureau's definition) by virtue of being part of Michigan, but it was part of a more nuanced conversation about the fact that 15% of Michiganders say they don't live in the Midwest.

There is a term in psephology that I don't quite remember, and I'm having a hard time looking up, that basically refers to a small percentage of every poll's respondents whose answers are total nonsense. This is because the respondent doesn't correctly understand the question, because they are not competent to answer it, or because they are straight up trolling the pollster.

Some professional pollsters have caught onto this and include calibration questions to flag bad respondents and not count those responses. For example, one poll asked respondents "Have you ever been decapitated?" 4% said yes, they had.

Anyway, keep in mind that some of the "no" responses in clearly-Midwestern states may be a result of that.

That is fair, but even if ~5% of the responses are throwaways, we can't assume that all of those respondents said that Michigan isn't part of the Midwest. If a respondent was just selecting responses at random, for example, that becomes a 50/50 proposition, not a guarantee they'll reject the Midwest. Also, polls are inexact by nature, so they tend to be more useful for comparative purposes (to compare to a baseline, a prior poll, or one's own expectations) rather than for technical purposes (exactly 23 random, possibly unrepresentative people in Leelanau County believe Michigan isn't part of the Midwest).

In that context, 5% is a relatively small amount, and when applied to the entire poll (i.e. there are throwaway responses in all regions), we can see that approximately 15% of Michiganders said they don't live in the Midwest, while only about 4% of Iowans said the same. It's fair to conclude that an 11% difference isn't all because of throwaway responses, and that, in fact, there are some Michiganders that don't believe they live in the Midwest. That's where cultural, historical, geographical, and any number of other factors may come into play.

And while I'm not disputing that Michigan is in the Midwest by technical definition, I think it's worth digging into some of those factors and the nuance surrounding them. There's not much value to the poll if your only use for it is to tell what percentage of people in the state are wrong about where they live by Census Bureau definition. Maybe it isn't just that simple and that's why the pollster thought it was a question worth asking.. and why whoever started this thread thought it was worth starting, for that matter.

[fhmiii]

Someone has responded to this map.  They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ

As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.

No.  While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City.  I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains."  It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density.  While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000.  You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.

And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? 

MO is its own crazy ball of wax when it comes to which region it should be in.

No doubt.  I like to say Missouri is the intersection of the Midwest, Great Plains, South, and West.

[kphoger]

Someone has responded to this map.  They are correct: https://x.com/robertmentzer/status/1714442998862233819?s=46&t=czoqRlbUcoq4KGfUAlcKuQ

As someone who lives in KC, you really don't think Kansas is Midwest? Odd take.

No.  While Wyandotte, Leavenworth, and Johnson Counties might qualify culturally as "midwestern," the whole state is not those three counties that neighbor Kansas City.  I say this because I separate "Midwest" and "Great Plains."  It's largely based on a) primary major settlement period (1800 to 1850 vs 1850 to 1900) and b) relative population density.  While there are certainly areas of the Midwest with very few people, you'll not find too many places where whole counties have populations of less than 1,000.  You will find plenty such counties in Kansas and especially in Nebraska and the Dakotas.

And are you really surprised that someone from Missouri would find any excuse to exclude Kansas? 

1.  I grew up fifty miles east of the KS/CO state line, and I estimate that approximately zero people in the whole county thought they didn't live in the Midwest.  I'll take their word over that of someone in another state.

2.  Please list all of the "plenty such counties in Kansas" with a population of less than 1000.

3.  By my count, there are three total counties in all of the Dakotas with a population of less than 1000.

[J N Winkler]

Please list all of the "plenty such counties in Kansas" with a population of less than 1000.

Spoiler alert:  the number of such counties is zero.  Greeley, the least populous, has 1,223 people.

[Sctvhound]

My personal definition:

I mostly agree with this map. Except maybe add a few more counties in West Virginia to the Midwest-influenced column. Monongalia, Preston and Marion Counties in WV and Greene County, PA to that column, and those counties on the Ohio River (at least most of them) are Midwestern and Appalachian.

You could plop some of those cities like Parkersburg, Huntington, and Point Pleasant in northeast or northwest Ohio very easily with their industry.