Recently, some triangular traffic signals have popped up near me. The have two red lights in the top row and a yellow light centered under them. What is the purpose of these signals?
Something like this?
https://youtu.be/87k7EVo8KkQ
These are HAWK signals. I'm not the biggest fan of them. They're used at pedestrian crossings. They provide an exclusive, protected crossing phase for a few seconds (with a solid red light), followed by a permissive phase, whereby cars must stop, before proceeding if clear. As you can tell by my video, the rules are not yet fully understood.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 04, 2017, 04:49:16 AM
Something like this?
https://youtu.be/87k7EVo8KkQ
These are HAWK signals. I'm not the biggest fan of them. They're used at pedestrian crossings. They provide an exclusive, protected crossing phase for a few seconds (with a solid red light), followed by a permissive phase, whereby cars must stop, before proceeding if clear. As you can tell by my video, the rules are not yet fully understood.
I had never heard of these before around five years ago, then they started poppping up everywhere in Utah, especially SLC downtown. I actually prefer them for pedestrian safety over just pushing a button to turn on a flashing yellow light, since it actually requires the drivers to stop. People figure if the yellow lights are flashing “some idiot pushed the button” and blast right through.
They are also preferable to full traffic lights at ped crossings because if someone finishes crossing early at a full light, there is no reason for traffic to stop but the light is still red.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 04, 2017, 04:49:16 AM
Something like this?
These are HAWK signals. I'm not the biggest fan of them. They're used at pedestrian crossings. They provide an exclusive, protected crossing phase for a few seconds (with a solid red light), followed by a permissive phase, whereby cars must stop, before proceeding if clear. As you can tell by my video, the rules are not yet fully understood.
Wouldn't HAWK signals be in violation of the MUTCD due to this?
Quote
Section 4L.02 Intersection Control Beacon
05 If two horizontally aligned red signal indications are used on an approach for an Intersection Control Beacon, they shall be flashed simultaneously to avoid being confused with grade crossing flashing-light signals. If two vertically aligned red signal indications are used on an approach for an Intersection Control Beacon, they shall be flashed alternately.
If I approached that intersection at the 23-second mark in the video, my first thought would be: Where's the train?
I haven't encountered one of these signals in person, but if I did, I probably wouldn't assume that an alternating left-right red flashing wigwag light indicates the same thing as a single red flashing light (i.e. stop, then proceed if clear).
I don't see what advantage a HAWK signal has over a standard R-Y-G setup–which nearly everyone understands instantly and obeys. Other than the possible overuse of R-Y-G lights and the erosion of respect for them that might result, I can't see any downside to using the standard traffic signal.
Quote from: briantroutman on November 04, 2017, 12:50:41 PM
I don’t see what advantage a HAWK signal has over a standard R-Y-G setup—which nearly everyone understands instantly and obeys. Other than the possible overuse of R-Y-G lights and the erosion of respect for them that might result, I can’t see any downside to using the standard traffic signal.
The only advantage I can see that a HAWK has over a traditional RYG signal is that drivers and continue through the clearance phase once they've stopped and there's no-one crossing, therefor you'll only have to wait the 7 seconds or so (depending on the length of the crosswalk) before you could proceed, rather than waiting the 7 seconds + the length of the clearance phase (depending on the length of the crossway, so let's assume 20 seconds for that) that you'd get with an RYG signal, assuming that only one person is crossing and they clear the crosswalk by the end of the walk phase.
We only have one here in Huntsville, and no others have been put up since it was installed.
I like the idea of a short protected phase for pedestrian crossing, followed by a permissive phase where you only have to stop if necessary. But the implementation with the HAWK is not the best in my opinion.
Why not a standard RYG setup, where a solid red is shown for a few moments, followed by a flashing red? When the pedestrian hits the button the light would either go solid green or flash yellow, either way followed by a solid yellow, then red.
The UK uses pelican crossings that operate like this. Solid red for a little bit, followed by flashing amber. The flashing amber displays when the solid green man changes to a flashing green man.
Quote from: briantroutman on November 04, 2017, 12:50:41 PM
If I approached that intersection at the 23-second mark in the video, my first thought would be: Where's the train?
Alternating flashing reds also indicate that a train is approaching. They don't simply light up the moment a train is at the crossing. Also, there's no train crossing signs anywhere.
QuoteI haven't encountered one of these signals in person, but if I did, I probably wouldn't assume that an alternating left-right red flashing wigwag light indicates the same thing as a single red flashing light (i.e. stop, then proceed if clear).
There's usually proper signage at these lights to inform you what to do. It generally will say something to the effect of "Stop on Steady Red, Proceed on flashing red when clear".
QuoteI don't see what advantage a HAWK signal has over a standard R-Y-G setup–which nearly everyone understands instantly and obeys. Other than the possible overuse of R-Y-G lights and the erosion of respect for them that might result, I can't see any downside to using the standard traffic signal.
As in the case of the video, once the pedestrian finished crossing the street, there was no reason to remain stopped. As with any flashing red light, you stop on red, then once it's safe to proceed, you can go. Of course, the person in the vehicle didn't go during the flashing red. Then again, it took a few seconds for them to go once the light turned off!
But, also, there's always going to be new ideas that come out. And there's various rules and traffic setups in some states that differ from many other states. There's always going to be learning curves to this sort of stuff.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 04, 2017, 02:23:08 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on November 04, 2017, 12:50:41 PM
I don't see what advantage a HAWK signal has over a standard R-Y-G setup–which nearly everyone understands instantly and obeys. Other than the possible overuse of R-Y-G lights and the erosion of respect for them that might result, I can't see any downside to using the standard traffic signal.
As in the case of the video, once the pedestrian finished crossing the street, there was no reason to remain stopped. As with any flashing red light, you stop on red, then once it's safe to proceed, you can go. Of course, the person in the vehicle didn't go during the flashing red. Then again, it took a few seconds for them to go once the light turned off!
They were using their phone. You can see me look up at them every few seconds. I kept expecting them to set off, but they never did (not until the signal turned off, anyway).
IMO, at this particular crossing, the signage is not adequate. It doesn't specify the difference between solid red and flashing red, which in this instance, is very important.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 04, 2017, 01:47:28 PM
I like the idea of a short protected phase for pedestrian crossing, followed by a permissive phase where you only have to stop if necessary. But the implementation with the HAWK is not the best in my opinion.
Why not a standard RYG setup, where a solid red is shown for a few moments, followed by a flashing red? When the pedestrian hits the button the light would either go solid green or flash yellow, either way followed by a solid yellow, then red.
The UK uses pelican crossings that operate like this. Solid red for a little bit, followed by flashing amber. The flashing amber displays when the solid green man changes to a flashing green man.
I have seen HAWKs implemented both mid-block and at intersections. At intersections, cross streets do not generally benefit from this signal - they will always face a stop sign and will not usually get a green light or equivalent while the pedestrians get a walk signal.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9814648,-77.026339,3a,75y,287.32h,75.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suoup4uVZtcvaHjUnJ9I54w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Instead of HAWKs, MD uses signals that are reminiscent of firehouse signals. Instead of RYG, there is R-Y-FY. FY is usually an 8 inch aspect (R and Y are 12 inch) and it is the standard setting. In MD, you have solid red for the entire pedestrian phase, I wish they would implement something like the pelican signal where you can stop and then proceed. Worse, cross traffic sees a RED-RED signal. Flashing red through most of the phase, solid red during the pedestrian phase. This means that while main street traffic is stopped for the peds, cross street traffic that is parallel to the peds cannot cross the street. This was done to discourage traffic on the side street. [In many areas, where small streets cross busy streets, the local streets with signals induce more traffic than those without, since drivers know they would need the help of a green light to cross the street or make a left turn.]
THe city of Los Angeles has the best implementation for mid-block crossings. [AFAIK, they only use full traffic signals at every full intersection.] The traffic signal is RYG, but when the light is red, it is a flashing red. So you get the benefit of drivers only having to wait for pedestrians to clear. And also, the RYG nature of the signal is normal and expected and doesn't come at you all of a sudden. Assume that it's dark and you're driving on an unfamiliar street. Seeign a green light means that you can proceed, but having the knowledge that it can eventually turn red. Seeing a HAWK or MD signal, you may never even expect to ever stop. I have seen plenty of people run the red light at a MD signal that is close to my kids school. People drive around seeing a flashing yellow, never expecting that it may eventually turn red.
There aren't many pedestrian-only signals in Norman, but the ones that do exist are typical RYG signals with a ped warning diamond where the cross street name would usually go. I feel like that's the way to go–simple and instantly familiar to the driver.
Fun story about one of those signals...one my friends used to rent a house along with several other people across from a school with a pedestrian signal. Oftentimes, traffic was so busy on the street that it was rather difficult to find a safe gap in traffic. If that was the case, it wasn't unusual to rope one of the roommates into triggering the signal so they could exit the driveway!
Quote from: freebrickproductions on November 04, 2017, 01:15:08 PM
We only have one here in Huntsville, and no others have been put up since it was installed.
Where in HSV is this located? Next time I am in town I would like to see this myself.
Quote from: cjk374 on November 05, 2017, 12:42:11 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on November 04, 2017, 01:15:08 PM
We only have one here in Huntsville, and no others have been put up since it was installed.
Where in HSV is this located? Next time I am in town I would like to see this myself.
Along Holmes Avenue on UAH's campus, right next to the Charger Union (Student Union).
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7278161,-86.6393413,3a,75y,242.48h,95.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYU-peQu2eFMeBBJ6fOIAhQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
The HAWKS that have been installed in Utah always come with a sign that explains the signal indications. It reads STOP on Red / Stop on Flashing Red then Proceed if Clear.
On a related note, this is the signal progression I usually see with these:
Flashing Yellow (3 or so flashes)
Solid Yellow
Double Red
Flashing Red
However, at some signals, the initial flashing yellow is omitted. Why do some signals include it and some don't? Is there a reason one way or the other?
Quote from: roadguy2 on November 06, 2017, 12:22:07 AM
However, at some signals, the initial flashing yellow is omitted. Why do some signals include it and some don't? Is there a reason one way or the other?
I don't think HAWK signals are allowed to skip the "visibility" (flashing yellow) phase, where it alerts traffic that it's active, and will soon be red. To go from dark, to solid yellow, to red, seems dangerous. Because most drivers aren't expecting dark signals to suddenly go from dark to red.
In Vancouver, the flashing green signals, which are pedestrian crossings, go from flashing green to solid green, before going to yellow, then red. Most drivers proceed through the flashing green signals as though there was no signal there at all, because they know it won't change to red. But if they see it go from flashing green to solid green, (although it usually means hurry up before it changes to red) they know it will change and should prepare to stop.
We have a lot of these popping up. Drivers ignore them slightly less than the roadside-mounted signals. I nearly got hit crossing at one the other day, and the same signal has a blind curve from the other side so drivers are suddenly presented with an unfamiliar signal they didn't see in advance.
I don't think it's good to use the alternating reds as a permissive signal when that is very explicitly used as the least permissive of all signals. Lights ought to work on an almost intuitive level.
What's HAWK an acronym for?
Quote from: Pete from Boston on November 06, 2017, 09:20:01 AM
Drivers ignore them slightly less than the roadside-mounted signals. I nearly got hit crossing at one the other day, and the same signal has a blind curve from the other side so drivers are suddenly presented with an unfamiliar signal they didn't see in advance.
If they've only posted the HAWK signals overhead, then of course drivers aren't going to see it coming around a bend. That's where those roadside (post-mounted) signals are especially handy.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on November 06, 2017, 09:20:01 AM
What's HAWK an acronym for?
High-Intensity
Activated cross
Wal
K beacon.
HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.
Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm
I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.
Quote from: Brandon on November 06, 2017, 12:09:02 PM
HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.
Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm
I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.
NJ has a few of these type signal crossing warnings as well. At a hospital near me, then have this setup: https://goo.gl/maps/zgFpqDQYgy32 . If you look carefully, you'll see several clear LEDs within each yellow diamond that flash a very bright yellow when a nearby button is hit.
The hospital's setup was installed just slightly before the HAWK signal was introduced, I believe. It works well with most drivers.
The HAWK signals in Alexandria have signs saying you have to stop and remained stopped on a steady red and that on a flashing red you have to stop and then proceed when it's clear. Here's a Street View link to the one behind the Patent and Trademark Office on Eisenhower Avenue:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8005522,-77.0639493,3a,75y,92.04h,82.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZDdsEBLYFcpo34OU59dWvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
In my totally unscientific observation, people are pretty good about stopping when the red light comes on, but then it's a crapshoot what happens next. Some people will go as soon as the crosswalk is clear, regardless of what the light is doing. Others won't move when the light is flashing red, even if the crosswalk is clear. The new signs seem to have helped a bit with the latter scenario. Alexandria's HAWKs originally didn't have the explanatory sign about flashing red and a lot of people would remain stopped. It made me feel like a red-light runner because I'd go if the light were flashing and the way were clear, even if nobody else did (and it didn't matter that I knew what I was doing was allowed, I still felt kind of like a red-light runner just because nobody else was going).
I think the District of Columbia used a different type of explanatory signing before Alexandria did and I guess Alexandria liked it. If you click that Street View link back to 2014, you'll see the sign that used to be posted there.
The reason for the HAWK signal at the location shown in that link, BTW, is that the PTO is a major employment center on the north side of the street and there are several restaurants on the south side, so pedestrians crossing are common only at certain times of the day on weekdays.
Quote from: Brandon on November 06, 2017, 12:09:02 PM
HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.
Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm
I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.
What's going on in the first example (https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12 (https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12))? I see the solar panel on top of the school crossing sign and some kind of an electrical box beside it; I also see the "push to cross" button below, but I don't see a beacon attached to the sign or lights embedded in the crosswalk. Are lights embedded in the sign face or something like that?
As to it being a violation of the MUTCD, I'm not inclined to see it that way. It would be the pedestrian in the crosswalk that requires vehicles to stop (assuming that Illinois has that law as many states do), and the beacon is just drawing attention to the pedestrian. It's a similar rationale to the
NO PASSING ZONE pennant being a yellow warning sign rather than a white regulatory one. The sign itself isn't dictating the law; it's just saying "Hey–look at the solid centerline" , which does. Now if the Secretary of State is telling people to stop for a flashing beacon even if there's no one in or waiting to enter the crosswalk, that's another matter.
And that actually brings up a point which I think argues against HAWK signals. While on one hand they could be argued to protect pedestrians by essentially forcing vehicles to stop, they could also be seen as desensitizing motorists to their legal responsibility to stop for pedestrians in
any crosswalk–marked or unmarked. HAWKs may be making pedestrians safer at a relative few crosswalks while placing them at increased risk at others.
This is how NJ (or the county, I guess) does it where the Patriot's Path hiking trail crosses County Route 510, a rural highway with no other pedestrians.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.788778,-74.5462549,3a,75y,84.45h,86.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZduVvNreIofqVl8KMUTyOA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
No traffic light, just flashing yellow lights that start flashing when the hiker hits the button. I guess they rely on the fact that it's a state law to stop for pedestrians without actually invoking it.
Quote from: Brandon on November 06, 2017, 12:09:02 PM
HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.
Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm
I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.
When you say "stop on the flashing yellow beacon", do you mean stop, when it's flashing
and there's pedestrians, or the entire time it's flashing yellow, regardless if there's pedestrians? If the former, that's totally normal (and the law, judging by the flexible bollard in the second link.). But if the latter, that is indeed some BS.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 06, 2017, 01:51:11 PM
Quote from: Brandon on November 06, 2017, 12:09:02 PM
HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.
Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm
I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.
When you say "stop on the flashing yellow beacon", do you mean stop, when it's flashing and there's pedestrians, or the entire time it's flashing yellow, regardless if there's pedestrians? If the former, that's totally normal (and the law, judging by the flexible bollard in the second link.). But if the latter, that is indeed some BS.
They're trying to get the latter put in the Rules of the Road.
Quote from: Brandon on November 06, 2017, 02:49:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 06, 2017, 01:51:11 PM
Quote from: Brandon on November 06, 2017, 12:09:02 PM
HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.
Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm
I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.
When you say "stop on the flashing yellow beacon", do you mean stop, when it's flashing and there's pedestrians, or the entire time it's flashing yellow, regardless if there's pedestrians? If the former, that's totally normal (and the law, judging by the flexible bollard in the second link.). But if the latter, that is indeed some BS.
They're trying to get the latter put in the Rules of the Road.
What the fuck. Are they retarded?
Here's a tip, Illinois. If you want traffic to stop, and remain stopped for the entire crossing phase, put in a traffic light. You know, the thing we've been using to stop traffic for 100+ years.
Well, I noticed today that a brand-new HAWK, intended to provide a protected route for a busy bike thoroughfare in the middle of Arlington, Mass., has been replace after a few months by a full light. I wonder if the confusion was too much for it to be effective. At others around here, I am super careful crossing because there seems to be a lower compliance rate than at regular lights.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 07, 2017, 01:58:01 PM
Well, I noticed today that a brand-new HAWK, intended to provide a protected route for a busy bike thoroughfare in the middle of Arlington, Mass., has been replace after a few months by a full light. I wonder if the confusion was too much for it to be effective. At others around here, I am super careful crossing because there seems to be a lower compliance rate than at regular lights.
I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights. It looks to me like they went with an aesthetically pleasing design rather one that would get people's attention.
Quote from: US71 on December 07, 2017, 07:49:14 PM
I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights
What do you mean by "bar light"?
Quote from: jakeroot on December 07, 2017, 08:51:51 PM
Quote from: US71 on December 07, 2017, 07:49:14 PM
I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights
What do you mean by "bar light"?
https://goo.gl/maps/Ua2K8ZkSXk32
There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.
Quote from: US71 on December 07, 2017, 09:03:10 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 07, 2017, 08:51:51 PM
Quote from: US71 on December 07, 2017, 07:49:14 PM
I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights
What do you mean by "bar light"?
https://goo.gl/maps/Ua2K8ZkSXk32
There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.
Oh. RRFB: Rapid Rectangular Flashing Beacon. They have taken off in my area. In fact, I can't think of any standard flashing yellow orbs installed (except for school zone and other warning signs) in recent memory. All crosswalk lights have been RRFBs. They were part of an MUTCD interim approval, but I think they were implemented into the manual.
Quote from: US71 on December 07, 2017, 09:03:10 PM
There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.
Compliance here (I'm in Florida) seems to be great when they're paired with the Stop for Peds in Crosswalk sign. I've seen one HAWK and compliance seemed to be bad and people confused about the signal. The RRFB seems cheaper and to have better compliance around here. If it needs a HAWK because RRFBs don't work, it probably needs to be fully signalized
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171208/5ee2771bc307566d3885c17034337a3e.jpg)
Quote from: plain on December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there
They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian
in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
Quote from: Brandon on December 09, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
Quote from: plain on December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there
They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
Well technically you're right in that regard.. Maybe I should've said "getting drivers to be alert for pedestrians about to enter the crosswalk, hopefully they will let them cross" or something idk. My whole point was that I agree with anyone saying the RRFBs and the like are pretty effective and cheaper alternatives to HAWK signals as drivers tend to blow through those too anyway. Really to me HAWK signals are like railroad crossing signals, but retarded.
Quote from: Brandon on December 09, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
Quote from: plain on December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there
They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
Yeah, that can be abused by hoodlums running by and hitting the button without using the crosswalk... glad I'm not in Illinois!
Quote from: SD Mapman on December 09, 2017, 11:10:20 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 09, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
Quote from: plain on December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there
They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
Yeah, that can be abused by hoodlums running by and hitting the button without using the crosswalk... glad I'm not in Illinois!
That's true of any signalized pedestrian crossing, including ones with traditional traffic signals.
Quote from: SD Mapman on December 09, 2017, 11:10:20 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 09, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
Quote from: plain on December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there
They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
Yeah, that can be abused by hoodlums running by and hitting the button without using the crosswalk... glad I'm not in Illinois!
It's not a law in Illinois just yet (nor do I expect it to be at any point).
In my experience, living in a rather "hood" area (Tacoma, in parts), pedestrians don't really give a shit about crosswalks at all. They just go when it's clear. I doubt you'd have many pranksters hitting the button.
I've seen a few pedestrian buttons that don't work before. They're very rare, and when I do find them, it's usually just one or two at an entire intersection.
https://goo.gl/tjBmpX
These HAWK signals are in use as emergency signals.
Quote from: index on December 16, 2017, 05:10:34 AM
https://goo.gl/tjBmpX
These HAWK signals are in use as emergency signals.
Pretty good use of them, too. Unlike normal emergency signals, HAWKs would allow drivers to proceed almost immediately after the fire truck(s) pull away, since by then, the signals would almost certainly have switched over to the flashing red phase. Not a massive improvement, but it gets drivers moving again quickly, a good thing for a signal that's hardly ever activated.
Of course, cities have to be careful not to overuse them at fire stations, since drivers might become adapted to them being emergency signals, rather than part-time crosswalk signals.
Carmel, Indiana implemented a HAWK signal for an entrance into a roundabout, to prevent one direction from flooding the roundabout:
https://youtu.be/-XoDQvvJ-VU
Huntsville tried out HAWK signals at a couple of fire stations. They have since swapped back to normal RYG signals for all stations.
SM-G900V
Quote from: jakeroot on December 16, 2017, 05:38:14 AM
Quote from: index on December 16, 2017, 05:10:34 AM
https://goo.gl/tjBmpX
These HAWK signals are in use as emergency signals.
Pretty good use of them, too. Unlike normal emergency signals, HAWKs would allow drivers to proceed almost immediately after the fire truck(s) pull away, since by then, the signals would almost certainly have switched over to the flashing red phase. Not a massive improvement, but it gets drivers moving again quickly, a good thing for a signal that's hardly ever activated.
Of course, cities have to be careful not to overuse them at fire stations, since drivers might become adapted to them being emergency signals, rather than part-time crosswalk signals.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on December 16, 2017, 05:44:30 PM
Huntsville tried out HAWK signals at a couple of fire stations. They have since swapped back to normal RYG signals for all stations.
It's worth noting that the 2009 MUTCD specifies a difference between a Pedestrian Hybrid Signal ("HAWK") [Sec 4F.02-03] and an Emergency-Vehicle Hybrid Beacon [Sec 4G.04]. The two look the same and function almost identically, except that the Emergency-Vehicle Hybrid Beacon does not contain the steady double-red phase (it goes straight from steady yellow to alternating flashing red).
Note that the 2009 MUTCD still allows for traditional signals to be used at emergency vehicle locations, and that the bottom indication can be green or flashing yellow [Sec 4G.03].
^^
Ahh, thanks for pointing that out. I haven't seen a new emergency signal installed in a very long time. The only new-ish one in my area is tied to an actuated signal that automatically changes when the fire truck leaves the station.
As for the Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacon, here's a diagram for those who were interested in how they operate (and need a picture):
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig4g_01.gif)
I'm still not quite sure how I feel about signals that so closely resemble railway crossing signals, but if they work, then so be it. I do think that Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacons are a better use of the layout than the Pedestrian Hybrid Beacon. I've always wanted unique emergency vehicle signals, for some reason. Maybe painted red like those old emergency vehicle signals in Virginia.
I know the wigwags that the UK uses at railroad crossings (which look similar to the HAWK signal and Emergency-Vehicle Hybrid Beacon) are also used at fire stations, lift bridges, and any other locations where traffic doesn't always need to be stopped but may randomly get stopped for one reason or another, so the idea isn't without precedent.
Also, slightly off topic but IMHO, railroad crossing signals here in the US should have yellow lights that come on before the flashing red lights come on.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on December 16, 2017, 05:44:30 PM
Huntsville tried out HAWK signals at a couple of fire stations. They have since swapped back to normal RYG signals for all stations.
I mostly see RYG for fire stations or flashing yellow/steady red in some instances.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 17, 2017, 06:41:02 PM
^^
Ahh, thanks for pointing that out. I haven't seen a new emergency signal installed in a very long time. The only new-ish one in my area is tied to an actuated signal that automatically changes when the fire truck leaves the station.
As for the Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacon, here's a diagram for those who were interested in how they operate (and need a picture):
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig4g_01.gif)
I'm still not quite sure how I feel about signals that so closely resemble railway crossing signals, but if they work, then so be it. I do think that Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacons are a better use of the layout than the Pedestrian Hybrid Beacon. I've always wanted unique emergency vehicle signals, for some reason. Maybe painted red like those old emergency vehicle signals in Virginia.
And are you allowed to go on the alternating reds like on the HAWK?
In Orlando I've seen at one emergency signal with red retroreflective tape around it, along with a school signal with fluorescent yellow tape around it, instead of the standard yellow retroreflective tape we usually see around new signal installs. I did like that treatment, subtle but effective.
Quote from: UCFKnights on December 23, 2017, 04:19:06 PM
And are you allowed to go on the alternating reds like on the HAWK?
I would guess so, judging by the optional steady-red phase that operators can include (see note in bottom right).
Quote from: UCFKnights on December 23, 2017, 04:19:06 PM
In Orlando I've seen at one emergency signal with red retroreflective tape around it, along with a school signal with fluorescent yellow tape around it, instead of the standard yellow retroreflective tape we usually see around new signal installs. I did like that treatment, subtle but effective.
If you have a Street View link to that signal with the red retroreflective tape, I'd love to see it. Never heard of such a thing. Seems like an odd decision, since red isn't as reflective as yellow or white (although maybe that's not the point).
Quote from: jakeroot on December 23, 2017, 11:10:06 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on December 23, 2017, 04:19:06 PM
And are you allowed to go on the alternating reds like on the HAWK?
I would guess so, judging by the optional steady-red phase that operators can include (see note in bottom right).
Quote from: UCFKnights on December 23, 2017, 04:19:06 PM
In Orlando I've seen at one emergency signal with red retroreflective tape around it, along with a school signal with fluorescent yellow tape around it, instead of the standard yellow retroreflective tape we usually see around new signal installs. I did like that treatment, subtle but effective.
If you have a Street View link to that signal with the red retroreflective tape, I'd love to see it. Never heard of such a thing. Seems like an odd decision, since red isn't as reflective as yellow or white (although maybe that's not the point).
I got a little lost due to a road closure right after Hurricane Irma when I saw it, I tried to go back and find it but couldn't. It was somewhere north of Orlando on a 2 lane road.
While shopping for signals I ran across what looks to be a HAWK signal with arrows. I've never seen something like that.
https://greenville.craigslist.org/clt/d/rare-traffic-light-signal-two/6446600835.html
(https://images.craigslist.org/00K0K_bwezsayMDwl_600x450.jpg)
(https://images.craigslist.org/00g0g_djgkolCtodP_600x450.jpg)
^^
I wonder if it's missing a signal face? I know quite a few southern states use double red lights at left turns, to emphasize the protected-only nature of the signal. But those all have two signal faces below the double red arrow.
Yea, that looks like a standard SC left turn signal with the green arrow missing. I suppose it could be wired-up like a HAWK if one so desired.