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What cycle do you like?

original HAWK
modified HAWK
what is a HAWK signal?
I like RYG ped signals.

Author Topic: HAWK modification  (Read 590 times)

MCRoads

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HAWK modification
« on: December 11, 2017, 10:17:20 AM »

OK, so i think the HAWK signal being off all the time unless the button is pushed is odd for a signal, and confusing to drivers who haven't seen it before. they use a similar system to the HAWK on Tinker AFB as a security barrier warning light, only it isn't off at all, it has a flashing light. so, I've taken inspiration and made what i think is a good change. i will compare the barrier signal to both the original HAWK, and the modified HAWK signal cycles.

barrier signal:

Flash yellow (2 sec on, 2 sec off): barrier inactive, no stopping
Flash yellow (1 sec on, 1 sec off): barrier activating, use caution
Solid yellow: barrier activating, slow and stop
Solid red:barrier up, do not proceed

modified HAWK:

Flash yellow: (2 sec on, 2 sec off) crosswalk clear, no stopping
Flash yellow: (1 sec on, 1 sec off) pedestrians will cross, caution
Solid yellow: pedestrians will cross, slow and stop
Solid red: pedestrians crossing, do not proceed
Flash red: pedestrians may be crossing, stop, then if clear, proceed

original HAWK:

no signal: crosswalk clear, no stopping
flashing yellow: pedestrians will cross, caution
solid yellow: pedestrians will cross, slow and stop
solid red: pedestrians crossing, do not proceed
flashing red: pedestrians may be crossing, stop, then if clear, proceed

Here is a GIF of what a modified HAWK would look like:

« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 10:54:56 AM by MCRoads »
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kphoger

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2017, 01:39:09 PM »

Original.

A flashing yellow light is a flashing yellow light, no matter the blink rate.  I actually prefer HAWK to standard signals, because people grow accustomed to ignore lights that are always green, so they sometimes don't notice them when they actually turn yellow/red.  I've seen this happen near my house.
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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2017, 06:30:16 AM »

They could have kept it simple and gone for a modified version of the pelican crossing from Commonwealth countries. Just replace the flashing yellow 'yield' phase with a flashing red 'stop and yield' phase.

This would avoid contradicting two rules that normally apply to signals, 1) that you should treat a dark signal as a stop sign, and 2) that alternating red signals mean stop and stay stopped.

Your concept avoids one of these contradictions, but not the other.
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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2017, 08:24:28 AM »

...and confusing to drivers who haven't seen it before.

modified HAWK:

Flash yellow: (2 sec on, 2 sec off) crosswalk clear, no stopping
Flash yellow: (1 sec on, 1 sec off) pedestrians will cross, caution
Solid yellow: pedestrians will cross, slow and stop
Solid red: pedestrians crossing, do not proceed
Flash red: pedestrians may be crossing, stop, then if clear, proceed

And this isn't confusing? 

You have 4 different light phases when pedestrians could be crossing.
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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2017, 02:33:37 PM »

2) that alternating red signals mean stop and stay stopped.
Alternating red means stop and proceed when clear in any instance, IIRC, including railroad crossings.
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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2017, 02:38:31 PM »

2) that alternating red signals mean stop and stay stopped.
Alternating red means stop and proceed when clear in any instance, IIRC, including railroad crossings.

I have seen the sign "Stop On Red" being fairly common.  And since a flashing red is still red, that's why traffic continues to remain stopped. 
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roadman

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2017, 02:42:03 PM »

2) that alternating red signals mean stop and stay stopped.
Alternating red means stop and proceed when clear in any instance, IIRC, including railroad crossings.

I have seen the sign "Stop On Red" being fairly common.  And since a flashing red is still red, that's why traffic continues to remain stopped. 
This is the sign MassDOT uses with HAWK installations:  https://www.massdot.state.ma.us/Portals/8/docs/traffic/Signs/MA-R10-23a.pdf
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kphoger

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 02:50:15 PM »

2) that alternating red signals mean stop and stay stopped.
Alternating red means stop and proceed when clear in any instance, IIRC, including railroad crossings.

Correct.  Please see below for the applicable rules.

Quote from: MUTCD, 2009 Edition, Chapter 8C. Flashing-Light Signals, Gates, and Traffic Control Signals
ß8C.02 Flashing-Light Signals
04  When indicating the approach or presence of rail traffic, the flashing-light signal shall display toward approaching highway traffic two red lights mounted in a horizontal line flashing alternately.

Quote from: MUTCD, 2009 Edition, Chapter 8C. Flashing-Light Signals, Gates, and Traffic Control Signals
ß8C.01 Introduction
04  The meaning of flashing-light signals and gates shall be as stated in the "Uniform Vehicle Code" (see Sections 11-701 and 11-703 of the UVC), which is available from the National Committee on Uniform Traffic Laws and Ordinances (see Page i for the address).

Quote from: Uniform Vehicle Code, Millenium Edition
ß11-701 Obedience to signal indicating approach of train
(a) Whenever any person driving a vehicle approaches a railroad grade crossing under any of the circumstances stated in this section, the driver of such vehicle shall stop within 50 feet but not less than 15 feet from the nearest rail of such railroad, and shall not proceed until it is safe to do so.
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MCRoads

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2017, 10:03:07 AM »

...and confusing to drivers who haven't seen it before.

modified HAWK:

Flash yellow: (2 sec on, 2 sec off) crosswalk clear, no stopping
Flash yellow: (1 sec on, 1 sec off) pedestrians will cross, caution
Solid yellow: pedestrians will cross, slow and stop
Solid red: pedestrians crossing, do not proceed
Flash red: pedestrians may be crossing, stop, then if clear, proceed

And this isn't confusing? 

You have 4 different light phases when pedestrians could be crossing.

pedestrians will cross: They cannot cross until the light has turned solid red.
pedestrians crossing: pedestrians are in the traffic lanes, pedestrians have started crossing.
pedestrians may be crossing: pedestrians may be in the traffic lanes, pedestrians may not be finished crossing.

there are only two phases where pedestrians are allowed to enter the traffic lanes.
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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2017, 11:03:56 AM »

2) that alternating red signals mean stop and stay stopped.
Alternating red means stop and proceed when clear in any instance, IIRC, including railroad crossings.

I have seen the sign "Stop On Red" being fairly common.  And since a flashing red is still red, that's why traffic continues to remain stopped. 
This is the sign MassDOT uses with HAWK installations:  https://www.massdot.state.ma.us/Portals/8/docs/traffic/Signs/MA-R10-23a.pdf

That sign ("Crosswalk / Stop On Red / Proceed on Flashing Red When Clear") is actually approved by FHWA as a clarification/interim approval to the 2009 MUTCD. Even still, that doesn't convey the full message that each car is supposed to stop during the flashing red--that sign can be interpreted as you can go through during flashing red without stopping as long as the peds are cleared.

They could have kept it simple and gone for a modified version of the pelican crossing from Commonwealth countries. Just replace the flashing yellow 'yield' phase with a flashing red 'stop and yield' phase.

Or just used a Pelican crossing concept instead. That makes the most sense with the concept the HAWK signals are trying to convey...not sure why the wheel was reinvented here...
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jeffandnicole

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2017, 12:20:32 PM »

...and confusing to drivers who haven't seen it before.

modified HAWK:

Flash yellow: (2 sec on, 2 sec off) crosswalk clear, no stopping
Flash yellow: (1 sec on, 1 sec off) pedestrians will cross, caution
Solid yellow: pedestrians will cross, slow and stop
Solid red: pedestrians crossing, do not proceed
Flash red: pedestrians may be crossing, stop, then if clear, proceed

And this isn't confusing? 

You have 4 different light phases when pedestrians could be crossing.

pedestrians will cross: They cannot cross until the light has turned solid red.
pedestrians crossing: pedestrians are in the traffic lanes, pedestrians have started crossing.
pedestrians may be crossing: pedestrians may be in the traffic lanes, pedestrians may not be finished crossing.

there are only two phases where pedestrians are allowed to enter the traffic lanes.

There should only be one phase when pedestrians are allowed to enter the traffic lanes: When THEY have a walk signal.  Remember...the traffic light is guidance for traffic, so that's not what the pedestrian goes by (a well placed signal may never be seen by the pedestrian, because their focus should be on the walk/don't walk signal).  You can't have a White Walk Signal while cross traffic has a yellow light because peds have the right of way.  A yellow light doesn't require traffic to stop, and they aren't expecting pedestrians to enter the crosswalk at that point.  Yellow signals are used primarily to indicate the signal will be turning red.  So, when peds have a walk signal, motorists should have a red stop signal.  As the pedestrian signal moves to a countdown/flashing red, that's when the traffic signal should turn to flashing red. 

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kphoger

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2017, 01:34:27 PM »

You have 4 different light phases when pedestrians could be crossing.

there are only two phases where pedestrians are allowed to enter the traffic lanes.

These two statements are not contradictory.  There are four HAWK phases in your scheme during which pedestrians could be crossing.  Up from three in the Original.

Meanwhile, the only difference in your scheme between "no pedestrians nearby" and "watch out for pedestrians" is how fast a light is flashingórequiring people both to know the difference in meaning and also to count how many seconds there are between blinks.
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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2017, 01:37:23 PM »

I'd simplify the HAWK phases based on what drivers are taught to do.

1. Flashing yellow: caution, it's a pedestrian crossing.
2. Solid yellow: button has been pushed and pedestrian ready to cross.
3. Solid red: stop, wait for pedestrians.
4. Flashing red: stop, look for pedestrians, proceed if clear.

Then back to flashing yellow.
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kphoger

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 01:48:41 PM »

I'd simplify the HAWK phases based on what drivers are taught to do.

1. Flashing yellow: caution, it's a pedestrian crossing.
2. Solid yellow: button has been pushed and pedestrian ready to cross.
3. Solid red: stop, wait for pedestrians.
4. Flashing red: stop, look for pedestrians, proceed if clear.

Then back to flashing yellow.

IMHO, people would be less likely to notice the change from flashing yellow to solid yellow with that scheme. They would be more likely with the actual HAWK scheme because the signal has just "come alive" from being dark and so they're already paying attention to it.
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UCFKnights

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2017, 07:24:22 PM »

I'd simplify the HAWK phases based on what drivers are taught to do.

1. Flashing yellow: caution, it's a pedestrian crossing.
2. Solid yellow: button has been pushed and pedestrian ready to cross.
3. Solid red: stop, wait for pedestrians.
4. Flashing red: stop, look for pedestrians, proceed if clear.

Then back to flashing yellow.

IMHO, people would be less likely to notice the change from flashing yellow to solid yellow with that scheme. They would be more likely with the actual HAWK scheme because the signal has just "come alive" from being dark and so they're already paying attention to it.
For this argument, why is this not the case with emergency signals like at fire stations? I feel HAWKs should fully match those, possibly with the added flashing red phase at the end before returning to flashing yellow in the bottom of a 3 segment light.
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kphoger

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2017, 11:25:55 AM »

I'd simplify the HAWK phases based on what drivers are taught to do.

1. Flashing yellow: caution, it's a pedestrian crossing.
2. Solid yellow: button has been pushed and pedestrian ready to cross.
3. Solid red: stop, wait for pedestrians.
4. Flashing red: stop, look for pedestrians, proceed if clear.

Then back to flashing yellow.

IMHO, people would be less likely to notice the change from flashing yellow to solid yellow with that scheme. They would be more likely with the actual HAWK scheme because the signal has just "come alive" from being dark and so they're already paying attention to it.
For this argument, why is this not the case with emergency signals like at fire stations? I feel HAWKs should fully match those, possibly with the added flashing red phase at the end before returning to flashing yellow in the bottom of a 3 segment light.

I don't believe I've ever actually seen a stoplight-protected fire station, so I can't comment from personal experience.  But I would prefer either a green light or a dark signal in the absence of an exiting fire truck there as well.  I agree that uniformity is important here.
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tradephoric

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2017, 12:10:24 PM »

It doesnít matter what type of indications are used at a HAWK if drivers physically canít see it in time to react to the indications being displayed.  A HAWK study at a roundabout in Oakland County, Michigan found that 31.1% of exit leg drivers proceeded through the crosswalk during the steady red indication.  Compare that to just 5.6% of drivers who proceeded through the crosswalk during the steady red indication at the entry leg of the roundabout.  That massive discrepancy between exiting and entry approaches suggests that the HAWK is not an effective traffic control device at an exit leg of a roundabout.  Drivers exiting a roundabout donít have enough time to react to the HAWK signal as they exit a roundabout and simply donít see it in time.  Letís not put HAWKs in locations where 1/3 of drivers are going to blow through the solid red.   Once that happens then letís talk about the nuances of the best sequence to use.

https://www.rcocweb.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/99


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kphoger

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2017, 12:23:03 PM »

It doesnít matter what type of indications are used at a HAWK if drivers physically canít see it in time to react to the indications being displayed.  A HAWK study at a roundabout in Oakland County, Michigan found that 31.1% of exit leg drivers proceeded through the crosswalk during the steady red indication.  Compare that to just 5.6% of drivers who proceeded through the crosswalk during the steady red indication at the entry leg of the roundabout.  That massive discrepancy between exiting and entry approaches suggests that the HAWK is not an effective traffic control device at an exit leg of a roundabout.  Drivers exiting a roundabout donít have enough time to react to the HAWK signal as they exit a roundabout and simply donít see it in time.  Letís not put HAWKs in locations where 1/3 of drivers are going to blow through the solid red.   Once that happens then letís talk about the nuances of the best sequence to use.

https://www.rcocweb.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/99

It looks like they had attempted to put the exit legs' crosswalks farther downstream than the entry legs' crosswalks (approx. 100Ė110 feet from the circulating lanes).  This is obviously a good, thing, but apparently not good enough.  I was unable to find any specific FHWA recommendation on how far from the circulating lanes to put a crosswalk; do you know if this exists?  I actually think anywhere on the splitter island is too close, but that's just a gut feeling.  Mid-block crosswalks would be my preference at roundabout locations.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2017, 12:29:16 PM »

It doesn’t matter what type of indications are used at a HAWK if drivers physically can’t see it in time to react to the indications being displayed.  A HAWK study at a roundabout in Oakland County, Michigan found that 31.1% of exit leg drivers proceeded through the crosswalk during the steady red indication.  Compare that to just 5.6% of drivers who proceeded through the crosswalk during the steady red indication at the entry leg of the roundabout.  That massive discrepancy between exiting and entry approaches suggests that the HAWK is not an effective traffic control device at an exit leg of a roundabout.  Drivers exiting a roundabout don’t have enough time to react to the HAWK signal as they exit a roundabout and simply don’t see it in time.  Let’s not put HAWKs in locations where 1/3 of drivers are going to blow through the solid red.   Once that happens then let’s talk about the nuances of the best sequence to use.

https://www.rcocweb.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/99




I'm pretty sure tradephoric is a politician.  They are the only ones that can derail a conversation with a sole exception, and tell others that the entire discussion must end until this one exception is fixed.
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roadfro

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2017, 03:57:02 PM »

It doesnít matter what type of indications are used at a HAWK if drivers physically canít see it in time to react to the indications being displayed.  A HAWK study at a roundabout in Oakland County, Michigan found that 31.1% of exit leg drivers proceeded through the crosswalk during the steady red indication.  Compare that to just 5.6% of drivers who proceeded through the crosswalk during the steady red indication at the entry leg of the roundabout.  That massive discrepancy between exiting and entry approaches suggests that the HAWK is not an effective traffic control device at an exit leg of a roundabout.  Drivers exiting a roundabout donít have enough time to react to the HAWK signal as they exit a roundabout and simply donít see it in time.  Letís not put HAWKs in locations where 1/3 of drivers are going to blow through the solid red.   Once that happens then letís talk about the nuances of the best sequence to use.

https://www.rcocweb.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/99
The same can be said for crosswalks at roundabout exits involving RRFBs or no conditions at all. Yield to pedestrian rates are much higher upon entry than upon exit. So no news there...

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UCFKnights

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2017, 01:02:59 AM »

I'd simplify the HAWK phases based on what drivers are taught to do.

1. Flashing yellow: caution, it's a pedestrian crossing.
2. Solid yellow: button has been pushed and pedestrian ready to cross.
3. Solid red: stop, wait for pedestrians.
4. Flashing red: stop, look for pedestrians, proceed if clear.

Then back to flashing yellow.

IMHO, people would be less likely to notice the change from flashing yellow to solid yellow with that scheme. They would be more likely with the actual HAWK scheme because the signal has just "come alive" from being dark and so they're already paying attention to it.
For this argument, why is this not the case with emergency signals like at fire stations? I feel HAWKs should fully match those, possibly with the added flashing red phase at the end before returning to flashing yellow in the bottom of a 3 segment light.

I don't believe I've ever actually seen a stoplight-protected fire station, so I can't comment from personal experience.  But I would prefer either a green light or a dark signal in the absence of an exiting fire truck there as well.  I agree that uniformity is important here.
I know I've seen them in other states as well, but they're common in Florida, here's a typical example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@28.6111816,-81.1918464,3a,75y,344.14h,78.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPTJ5hcwVvsrjiHARwSk3mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A dark signal is SUPPOSED to be treated as a stop sign supposedly (rarely happens), thats another reason I don't like the HAWK defaulting to dark. i'd want the signals to look like the emergency ones, perhaps with the added flashing red phase. (Some emergency signal installations use red signal housing in other states, and I've seen lots of Florida ones with an 8 inch bottom flashing yellow segment)

Another thing I've seen in Orlando is the fluorescent yellow being used as the retroreflective border around signals for schools (instead of the standard yellow warning color), they could be used on HAWKs or pedestrian signals as well?
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tradephoric

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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2017, 10:21:13 AM »

It doesnít matter what type of indications are used at a HAWK if drivers physically canít see it in time to react to the indications being displayed.  A HAWK study at a roundabout in Oakland County, Michigan found that 31.1% of exit leg drivers proceeded through the crosswalk during the steady red indication.  Compare that to just 5.6% of drivers who proceeded through the crosswalk during the steady red indication at the entry leg of the roundabout.  That massive discrepancy between exiting and entry approaches suggests that the HAWK is not an effective traffic control device at an exit leg of a roundabout.  Drivers exiting a roundabout donít have enough time to react to the HAWK signal as they exit a roundabout and simply donít see it in time.  Letís not put HAWKs in locations where 1/3 of drivers are going to blow through the solid red.   Once that happens then letís talk about the nuances of the best sequence to use.

https://www.rcocweb.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/99
The same can be said for crosswalks at roundabout exits involving RRFBs or no conditions at all. Yield to pedestrian rates are much higher upon entry than upon exit. So no news there...

It's a false sense of security.  Pedestrians see the WALK indication and may assume it's safe to cross yet about 1/3 of drivers are ignoring the solid red indication at the HAWK.  Just imagine if 1/3 of drivers blew through red lights at a typical intersection and how safe that would be for pedestrians and or other motorists (and i'm not talking about running a red light that was still "pink"... i'm talking about blowing through a solid red light that has been red for a while).  The HAWK has a horrid compliance rate at the exiting leg of a roundabout.  At some point  you are better off with no traffic control device at all. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 10:23:44 AM by tradephoric »
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Re: HAWK modification
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2017, 11:41:59 AM »

I'd simplify the HAWK phases based on what drivers are taught to do.

1. Flashing yellow: caution, it's a pedestrian crossing.
2. Solid yellow: button has been pushed and pedestrian ready to cross.
3. Solid red: stop, wait for pedestrians.
4. Flashing red: stop, look for pedestrians, proceed if clear.

Then back to flashing yellow.

IMHO, people would be less likely to notice the change from flashing yellow to solid yellow with that scheme. They would be more likely with the actual HAWK scheme because the signal has just "come alive" from being dark and so they're already paying attention to it.
For this argument, why is this not the case with emergency signals like at fire stations? I feel HAWKs should fully match those, possibly with the added flashing red phase at the end before returning to flashing yellow in the bottom of a 3 segment light.

I don't believe I've ever actually seen a stoplight-protected fire station, so I can't comment from personal experience.  But I would prefer either a green light or a dark signal in the absence of an exiting fire truck there as well.  I agree that uniformity is important here.
I know I've seen them in other states as well, but they're common in Florida, here's a typical example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@28.6111816,-81.1918464,3a,75y,344.14h,78.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPTJ5hcwVvsrjiHARwSk3mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

A dark signal is SUPPOSED to be treated as a stop sign supposedly (rarely happens), thats another reason I don't like the HAWK defaulting to dark. i'd want the signals to look like the emergency ones, perhaps with the added flashing red phase. (Some emergency signal installations use red signal housing in other states, and I've seen lots of Florida ones with an 8 inch bottom flashing yellow segment)
Huntsville also has some, though the city uses RYG signals:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7134687,-86.6269973,3a,59y,352.49h,94.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDZ4zBFG2WQxKT-AswxiMyg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I've also seen a few up in New Jersey, though typically with an 8 inch flashing yellow indication at the bottom.
Logged
It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

 


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