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Which do you think is better: Highway Gothic or Clearview?

Highway Gothic
Clearview

Author Topic: The Clearview thread  (Read 427252 times)

kalvado

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1500 on: July 30, 2017, 07:27:52 PM »

Looking at the updated cosponsor list for the SIGN Act, it appears that very few Democratic congressmen have signed onto the bill.  I have a feeling that most Democrats in the House are going to vote against it while most Republicans will vote for it.

Why in the world would this be a partisan issue?
Because the way things are, if a democrat sneeze, no republican would even think about saying "bless you" - and vice versa.
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jakeroot

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1501 on: July 30, 2017, 11:13:25 PM »

Looking at the updated cosponsor list for the SIGN Act, it appears that very few Democratic congressmen have signed onto the bill.  I have a feeling that most Democrats in the House are going to vote against it while most Republicans will vote for it.

Why in the world would this be a partisan issue?

Because the way things are, if a democrat sneeze, no republican would even think about saying "bless you" - and vice versa.

That's true for some things, like healthcare, but not generic legislation like Clearview.
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Pink Jazz

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1502 on: July 30, 2017, 11:24:24 PM »


Looking at the updated cosponsor list for the SIGN Act, it appears that very few Democratic congressmen have signed onto the bill.  I have a feeling that most Democrats in the House are going to vote against it while most Republicans will vote for it.

Why in the world would this be a partisan issue?

Because the way things are, if a democrat sneeze, no republican would even think about saying "bless you" - and vice versa.

That's true for some things, like healthcare, but not generic legislation like Clearview.


But it is surprising how few Democrats have cosponsored the bill, even from states outside Texas.  This makes me wonder what will be the vote on the bill by party.
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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1503 on: July 31, 2017, 07:41:54 AM »

0 to 0, most likely. It hasn't even made it out of the Transportation committee yet, despite being referred there in April.

To be frank, the House has more important things to do than legislate this; the next big thing to do after the August recess is handle the debt ceiling, and also try to tackle the FY 2018 budget, both of which are issues that Speaker Ryan is personally very invested in (before becoming Speaker, he was in his dream job of Ways and Means chair). Even if this came sailing out of the committee, he's not likely to schedule floor time for this bill when financial issues are still pending.

After that we'll get into the midterm campaign season, which is not historically the most Congressionally productive time.

If they REALLY wanted to get this done, the way to do it would be to attach it as a rider to a transportation bill like whatever the next SAFETEA/ISTEA/TEA-21 ends up being called. The fact that Rep. Johnson filed it as a stand-alone bill kind of makes me wonder if Rep. Johnson just wanted to show someone "look, I did something" for whatever reason.
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vdeane

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1504 on: July 31, 2017, 01:23:50 PM »

Because the way things are, if a democrat sneeze, no republican would even think about saying "bless you" - and vice versa.
That's true for some things, like healthcare, but not generic legislation like Clearview.
Also not true for driverless cars for some reason.  They're working together on a bill that would deregulate driverless cars, to the point of preempting existing state regulations.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1505 on: August 01, 2017, 08:47:18 AM »

Because the way things are, if a democrat sneeze, no republican would even think about saying "bless you" - and vice versa.
That's true for some things, like healthcare, but not generic legislation like Clearview.
Also not true for driverless cars for some reason.  They're working together on a bill that would deregulate driverless cars, to the point of preempting existing state regulations.

I really hope that gets shot down like Oklahoma shoots down raises for schoolteachers...
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jakeroot

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1506 on: August 01, 2017, 06:47:50 PM »

Because the way things are, if a democrat sneeze, no republican would even think about saying "bless you" - and vice versa.

That's true for some things, like healthcare, but not generic legislation like Clearview.

Also not true for driverless cars for some reason.  They're working together on a bill that would deregulate driverless cars, to the point of preempting existing state regulations.

I really hope that gets shot down like Oklahoma shoots down raises for schoolteachers...

Why? They're remarkably good at driving.
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Pink Jazz

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1507 on: August 02, 2017, 12:55:25 PM »

Another legislation, H.R. 3353, contains text to reinstate the interim approval for Clearview:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/3353/text?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22Fiscal+Year+2018+Transportation%2C+Housing+and+Urban+Development+Funding%22%5D%7D&r=2

Unlike the SIGN Act, this bill will only reinstate the interim approval, rather than forcing the FHWA to issue a final rule to incorporate Clearview into the MUTCD.
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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1508 on: August 02, 2017, 09:55:00 PM »

Iowa in a nutshell.

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1509 on: August 17, 2017, 06:13:16 PM »

As a minor trivia item, Georgia DOT has (accidentally, I think) posted some signs using Clearview - but nobody would notice them unless they're looking very, very closely.

Specifically, the fractional enhanced location markers on I-75 along the new express lanes south of Atlanta are in FHWA. But the ones every mile use Clearview, not FHWA, for the word "MILE." You can definitely tell it's not an FHWA "M" because the center "v" doesn't drop down as far - in FHWA it goes down to the baseline, but in Clearview it only makes it down halfway.

Compare an integer mile marker (Clearview) and a fractional mile marker (FHWA).

Also of interest: both the House and Senate appropriations bills for FHWA for Fiscal Year 18 call for IA-5 to be reinstated either directly or indirectly: House Appropriators Fuel FHWA Font Fight:

Quote
The House Transportation-HUD Appropriations bill, released earlier this month, would allow jurisdictions to choose between using Clearview or Highway Gothic for their roadway signs in the FY18 fiscal year. The bill report states that its provision on highway guide sign fonts “prohibits funds from being used to enforce actions terminating the interim approval of [Clearview] during fiscal year 2018.”

The report also requires FHWA to conduct a comprehensive review of prior research on Clearview as well as the safety and cost implications of FHWA’s 2016 decision to terminate its approval of the Clearview font. The agency is required to report back to the committee within 90 days of enactment. ...

[Update: July 31, 2017] The Senate Transportation-HUD Appropriations Committee also jumped into the debate with the release of its FY18 bill in late July. While Clearview was not mentioned in the bill itself, the accompanying report directed FHWA “to reinstate Interim Approval IA–5 unless there is sufficient information to demonstrate no improvement in the overall effectiveness of signs from the use of Clearview.”

The provision also made it into the proposed omnibus spending bill published yesterday in the House (page 1174):

Quote
SEC. 125. For this fiscal year, the Federal Highway Administration shall reinstate Interim Approval IA-5, relating to the provisional use of an alternative lettering style on certain highway guide signs, as it existed before its termination, as announced in the Federal Register on January 25, 2016 [(81 Fed. Reg. 4083)].

As of yet it is unclear if the Senate will produce a similar omnibus bill or try to get the House to pass the individual parts separately.
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Eth

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1510 on: August 17, 2017, 06:56:11 PM »

As a minor trivia item, Georgia DOT has (accidentally, I think) posted some signs using Clearview - but nobody would notice them unless they're looking very, very closely.

Specifically, the fractional enhanced location markers on I-75 along the new express lanes south of Atlanta are in FHWA. But the ones every mile use Clearview, not FHWA, for the word "MILE." You can definitely tell it's not an FHWA "M" because the center "v" doesn't drop down as far - in FHWA it goes down to the baseline, but in Clearview it only makes it down halfway.

Compare an integer mile marker (Clearview) and a fractional mile marker (FHWA).

Sheesh, can't we at least finish one statewide font update before we go changing it again? (Also, I shudder to think what GDOT signs intentionally using Clearview would be like.)
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lordsutch

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1511 on: August 18, 2017, 12:51:05 AM »

Sheesh, can't we at least finish one statewide font update before we go changing it again? (Also, I shudder to think what GDOT signs intentionally using Clearview would be like.)

I'm pretty sure a subcontractor just messed up and nobody caught it, or they just decided replacing the signs would be a waste of money since virtually nobody would notice the difference. You'd have to be incredibly anal (i.e. a roadgeek) to pick up on it either way.
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ekt8750

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1512 on: September 24, 2017, 07:17:05 PM »

Philadelphia has finally gotten the memo that Clearview's been revoked. Saw some new blades around town using mixed-case Highway Gothic Series B and C. Have to say they looked really nice.
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J N Winkler

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1513 on: September 24, 2017, 07:33:42 PM »

I might as well mention this:

http://falconsvp3.dot.state.wy.us/falconwebv3/falconwebapi3.aspx?cmd=search&app=apidesignplans&env=design%20plans&web%20viewable=yes&svp%20search=design%20plans

If you scroll down the listing (there is no way to provide a direct link to any of the files), one of the projects currently listed is an I-80 signs upgrade covering the route from Laramie eastward.  The sign layout sheets are pattern-accurate and confirm that Wyoming DOT has given up on Clearview.
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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1514 on: September 25, 2017, 01:01:03 PM »

Personally, I have to "believe it when I see it" on the signs here in Wyoming.   Too bad there's not an overall sign design  document listed there.  Well, there may be somewhere, but digging into government documents makes my brain hurt.   
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Pink Jazz

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1515 on: October 02, 2017, 12:50:03 PM »

It looks like Chandler's use of thin-stroked Helvetica as a replacement for Clearview on its illuminated street blades was apparently short-lived, since I saw illuminated street blades with brand new sheeting in FHWA today (I think it was at Chandler Boulevard and Alma School).
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paulthemapguy

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1516 on: December 11, 2017, 09:37:32 AM »

So which states have completed the switch back to FHWA font on the new signage?  I see that IDOT and ISTHA have gotten back to the regular font.  Even DuPage County, a huge proponent of Clearview, is back to installing signs with the superior font.
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Pink Jazz

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1517 on: December 11, 2017, 10:32:49 AM »

So which states have completed the switch back to FHWA font on the new signage?  I see that IDOT and ISTHA have gotten back to the regular font.  Even DuPage County, a huge proponent of Clearview, is back to installing signs with the superior font.

I know Arizona and Virginia have made the switch back.  However, does anyone know about Texas?  Texas is the lead state that is challenging the FHWA's decision on the rescinding of the interim approval, and continued to use Clearview well after the FHWA rescinded its interim approval.

However, note that ADOT isn't using Series E-Modified, but is using plain Series E on freeway BGS, Series D on regular roads, and Series C on street blades.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 10:35:23 AM by Pink Jazz »
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hbelkins

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1518 on: December 11, 2017, 11:37:27 AM »

Kentucky is still using a mixture. I've noticed that on projects where signing plans were developed prior to the approval being rescinded, Clearview is still being installed. But on replacement signage, it's back to FHWA. I've also noticed that West Virginia is back to using FHWA for new or replacement signage in areas where Clearview replacements have been done, such as I-64 between the state line and Barboursville.
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J N Winkler

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1519 on: December 11, 2017, 11:44:41 AM »

In terms of recent construction plans sets from the states that routinely used Clearview on their state highways (a proper subset of those that took out Clearview interim approvals), I am seeing reversion to the FHWA series in AZ, WY, OK, AR, IA, and VA, but not TX.  For IL, MI, PA, and OH, I have too little information to make a determination.

TxDOT is by far the largest holdout in terms of annual volume of sign panel detail sheets.  It is now making early review plans available online, at completion percentages ranging from 30% to 95%, and the ones that have signing still have Clearview.

In the case of MI I am seeing Clearview signing plans that post-date Michigan DOT's Clearview phaseout memo by more than a year.  I can't tell whether that is because they just have a lot of signing plans on the shelf, or if they are counting on being able to change typeface after contract award.
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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1520 on: December 11, 2017, 11:47:12 AM »

It seems to me that any new signage I see going up here in MD is still in Clearview.  It was nice to see new signs in Connecticut using Highway Gothic last time I was up there, though I'm a bit sad to see their button copy and outline shields go.  The white route shields are probably more reflective, I tell myself -- though I have always enjoyed their outline button copy shields.

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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1521 on: December 11, 2017, 01:34:00 PM »

In terms of recent construction plans sets from the states that routinely used Clearview on their state highways (a proper subset of those that took out Clearview interim approvals), I am seeing reversion to the FHWA series in AZ, WY, OK, AR, IA, and VA, but not TX.  For IL, MI, PA, and OH, I have too little information to make a determination.
Newer installs in PA are now Highway Gothic; such started appearing almost 2 years ago.
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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1522 on: December 11, 2017, 03:32:18 PM »

I've also noticed that West Virginia is back to using FHWA for new or replacement signage in areas where Clearview replacements have been done, such as I-64 between the state line and Barboursville.

West Virginia always used FHWA on DOH-manufactured signage. Clearview signage was installed by contractors, generally as part of larger sign replacement projects. I don't think DOH wanted to spend money on the Clearview licenses.

A couple years ago, US 50 (Corridor D) between Parkersburg and Clarksburg got a complete signage replacement in Clearview. Soon after, you started seeing DOH-installed replacements with FHWA pop up because of accidents and road name changes. This was well before Clearview use was rescinded.
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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1523 on: December 11, 2017, 03:57:18 PM »

I wonder, has NMDOT District 5 switched back?  They were the only district in New Mexico to use Clearview.

Locally, Clearview has been used by the City of Rio Rancho, as well as Los Alamos County.
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Re: The Clearview thread
« Reply #1524 on: December 11, 2017, 10:46:47 PM »

In terms of recent construction plans sets from the states that routinely used Clearview on their state highways (a proper subset of those that took out Clearview interim approvals), I am seeing reversion to the FHWA series in AZ, WY, OK, AR, IA, and VA, but not TX.  For IL, MI, PA, and OH, I have too little information to make a determination.

TxDOT is by far the largest holdout in terms of annual volume of sign panel detail sheets.  It is now making early review plans available online, at completion percentages ranging from 30% to 95%, and the ones that have signing still have Clearview.

In the case of MI I am seeing Clearview signing plans that post-date Michigan DOT's Clearview phaseout memo by more than a year.  I can't tell whether that is because they just have a lot of signing plans on the shelf, or if they are counting on being able to change typeface after contract award.

Ohio has switched back to FHWA. New signage installed this year on I-70 in Madison County & east Columbus, parts of OH 315, and U.S. 33 from Marysville to Dublin all use FHWA. This also applies to other parts of the state where construction projects have recently been completed (ie. I-76 near Barberton, I-71 just northeast of downtown Cincinnati).

 


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