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The Clearview thread

Started by BigMattFromTexas, August 03, 2009, 05:35:25 PM

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Which do you think is better: Highway Gothic or Clearview?

Highway Gothic
Clearview

hbelkins

Quote from: Takumi on January 01, 2013, 04:09:22 PM
This was the first time I'd seen a Clearview mixed-case distance sign. Aside from the numbers, it looks surprisingly decent.


You don't see that in Virginia very often with non-Clearview fonts. Offhand, I can't recall seeing a "mileage board" that wasn't in all caps.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.


J N Winkler

Quote from: hbelkins on January 02, 2013, 09:23:20 AMYou don't see that in Virginia very often with non-Clearview fonts. Offhand, I can't recall seeing a "mileage board" that wasn't in all caps.

VDOT is slowly pulling up its socks with regard to Clearview.  The first round of Clearview D-series small-guide-sign replacements called for mileage signs in all-uppercase Clearview (ugh) as drop-in replacements for existing mileage signs which used all-uppercase Series C or D.  Later replacement contracts now use mixed-case.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

tdindy88

I recall mileage signs like that on US 31 in Northern Michigan, from about Scottsville to Traverse City, last year. For that matter, I'm pretty sure that all white-on-green signs on that stretch were both in mixed-case and Clearview.

J N Winkler

Yup--that's the current Michigan DOT standard for D-series signs that use Clearview.  I have been following Michigan DOT construction plans since 2006 and I don't think I have ever seen a plans set (or sign sketches in a proposal book) that uses all-uppercase Clearview in this context.

Michigan DOT has an unusual letter sizing policy:  7" caps instead of 6" (MUTCD requirement) or 8" (TxDOT standard--TxDOT also uses mixed-case Clearview on D-series signs).
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Ian

I saw these signs during my trip up to Albany this past week. I'm assuming these are only Albany County installed, as NYSDOT hasn't switched to Clearview as far as I know. I hope I'm right.


UMaine graduate, former PennDOT employee, new SoCal resident.
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Takumi

Hey, at least those don't have numbers. Clearview numbers should never ever be used on anything under any circumstances. Ever.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

Scott5114

Oklahoma DOT is also transitioning to mixed-case guide signs, although which font is being used on them is kind of hit-or-miss. Out in Beckham County, SH-152 has some mixed case Series D signs, but mixed-case Clearview has popped up on SH-19 in Garvin County. (The latter sign also included a shield graphic, instead of the "JCT SH-59" format that's normally used.)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

vdeane

Quote from: Takumi on January 02, 2013, 10:22:27 PM
Hey, at least those don't have numbers. Clearview numbers should never ever be used on anything under any circumstances. Ever.
I've never understood the hate for clearview numbers.  They don't seem to have any issues the letters don't have.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

DaBigE

Quote from: deanej on January 03, 2013, 11:29:29 AM
Quote from: Takumi on January 02, 2013, 10:22:27 PM
Hey, at least those don't have numbers. Clearview numbers should never ever be used on anything under any circumstances. Ever.
I've never understood the hate for clearview numbers.  They don't seem to have any issues the letters don't have.

Part of the reason, I think, is because there was never really a documented problem with the FHWA numbers to begin with (nor all uppercase letters), therefore, changing them is a waste of time in a scientific sense. The reason for the Clearview font were due in part to problems with halation/confusion with the lowercase letters a,e, and o.

From a typographical sense, it looks awkward/less eye-pleasing to have two different fonts in the same line. It's also much easier(/lazier?) for the person laying out the sign to keep the same font all the way through.
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

agentsteel53

#734
Quote from: DaBigE on January 03, 2013, 12:32:34 PM
there was never really a documented problem with the FHWA numbers to begin with (nor all uppercase letters),

I have trouble with FHWA Series EM "6" and "4".

once got a ticket that way!

(in my defense, the sign was knocked down and the setting sun was bouncing off of it, so I should be glad that I recognized that it was a sign in the first place... but I didn't feel like paying $400 for airfare to beat a $135 ticket)
live from sunny San Diego.

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vtk

Went to Bobby Layman Chevrolet today. Noticed wayfinding signage all around (more necessary than usual due to showroom rebuild).  Reflective, blue on white with inset border, standard arrows, and all-caps legend in Clearview, differing widths as necessary.  I think the dealership probably commissioned Franklin County Engineer's Office for the signs.
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: hbelkins on January 02, 2013, 09:23:20 AM
Quote from: Takumi on January 01, 2013, 04:09:22 PM
This was the first time I'd seen a Clearview mixed-case distance sign. Aside from the numbers, it looks surprisingly decent.


You don't see that in Virginia very often with non-Clearview fonts. Offhand, I can't recall seeing a "mileage board" that wasn't in all caps.

I know there are varying opinions out there regarding Clearview, but this is (IMO) a nice update to a very traditional Virginia sign, and I think it looks better than the "original" all caps version.  I have never seen one like this with my own eyes.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

hbelkins

There's something I've noticed about Clearview mileage signs (BGS-type on the interstates) that looked a little odd to me, and I was never able to put my finger on what it was. This sign has clarified it for me.

Always before, on regular FHWA typeface signs, numbers for the mileage were the height of the capital letters.

On this CV sign, and also the newer interstate mileage signs that have gone up in Kentucky, the numbers are the height of the lower case letters.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

agentsteel53

Quote from: hbelkins on January 17, 2013, 02:39:48 PM
On this CV sign, and also the newer interstate mileage signs that have gone up in Kentucky, the numbers are the height of the lower case letters.

you have a valid observation, but I do not believe it is completely correct.  I think the "oddness" is a result of two things:

1) numbers being slightly shorter than capital letters (or maybe the same height?  tough to tell in the small photo)

and more importantly:

2) extra-tall ascenders on lowercase letters like "h", "l", etc resulting in those glyphs being significantly taller than capital letters.

I definitely can tell that the "i" in "Pines" sticks out well above the "P", but that is about the only glyph pair on which I can make accurate sizing determinations, as - again - it's a pretty low-resolution photo.

can anyone corroborate these observations?
live from sunny San Diego.

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jake@aaroads.com

Takumi

I can go get a better photo of it if you want. It's only about 10 miles away from me.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

Kacie Jane

Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 17, 2013, 03:00:23 PM
can anyone corroborate these observations?

Corroborate, no.  But I was thinking exactly what you were, but it's hard to tell with the photo given.  It looks to me that there are three heights: (A) lowercase letters, (B) uppercase letters and numbers, and (C) tall lowercase letters; and my hunch is that hbelkins is thrown off because A is a much higher percentage of B than we're used to, and C is also a fair bit taller than we're used to.

J N Winkler

Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 17, 2013, 05:29:29 PMCorroborate, no.  But I was thinking exactly what you were, but it's hard to tell with the photo given.  It looks to me that there are three heights: (A) lowercase letters, (B) uppercase letters and numbers, and (C) tall lowercase letters; and my hunch is that hbelkins is thrown off because A is a much higher percentage of B than we're used to, and C is also a fair bit taller than we're used to.

I basically agree with this; I think the numbers are at capital letter height, as is usual on mileage signs.  (I have, however, collected designs for mileage signs in which the numbers were noticeably smaller than the capital letters, though only for signs using Series E Modified.)

Ignoring the very slight height variation that is permitted for letters that have curves in them, there are basically four heights above baseline that apply to Clearview.  In ascending order, these are as follows:

x-height (basically, the height of a lowercase letter without ascenders)

*  Capital letter height (applies not just to capital letters but also to digits and certain lowercase letters with ascenders, such as t)

*  Height of certain lowercase letters with ascenders (f, h, l, and others)

*  Height of lowercase i

I have bidding plans for most if not all of the signing work VDOT has done by contract in the last few years, and I can assure you that VDOT has been very consistent about using the same height for capital letters and digits on mileage signs.  I am not sure I have the sign panel detail sheet for this particular sign, however (not all VDOT signing is done by contract--some of it is done by state forces and there have been a few on-call signing contracts in the mix).
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

agentsteel53

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 17, 2013, 06:08:47 PM
*  Height of certain lowercase letters with ascenders (f, h, l, and others)

is this height, as given in the Clearview specification, unusually tall compared to Highway Gothic? i.e. what HB would be used to seeing?
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

J N Winkler

Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 17, 2013, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 17, 2013, 06:08:47 PM*  Height of certain lowercase letters with ascenders (f, h, l, and others)

is this height, as given in the Clearview specification, unusually tall compared to Highway Gothic? i.e. what HB would be used to seeing?

The ascenders for this height group stick up about 6.6% of capital letter height above the tops of the capital letters.  I don't know if this is "unusual," but it is a characteristic completely absent from the FHWA alphabet series, where ascenders never stick up above the tops of the capital letters.  Lowercase i protrudes about 10% of capital letter height above the tops of the capital letters; in the FHWA series the dot of i never protrudes above the capital letters.

This behavior of Clearview ascenders is why I can't use my standard positioning scripts on Clearview legend blocks without using adjuster scripts to compensate for ascenders in any lines of legend that have them.  I could do without the adjusters, but considering that omitting them adds an error to line spacing equal to 1/10 or 1/7 the correct line spacing, the results look subtly but noticeably wrong.

(FHWA says that the standard line spacing of 75% capital letter height for Series E Modified legend is wrong for Clearview, and that 84% capital letter height should be used instead, that being apparently the ratio of Clearview x-height to capital letter height.  I am sorry, but on this point I think FHWA is wrong, so I stick with 75%.  Most Clearview-using state DOTs agree with me.)
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

J N Winkler

Comparison of real sign and mockup using de facto Virginia DOT standards for conventional-road mileage signs (Clearview 3-W):



"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Takumi

Here's another example of VDOT's transition to proper Clearview. This is on US 60 eastbound in New Kent County. This was taken in November, but an FHWA style sign in all caps was here until July.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

vdeane

Yates County, NY appears to have adopted  clearview.  I noticed clearview county and town line signs.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

WillWeaverRVA

Quote from: Takumi on January 18, 2013, 10:36:33 PM
Here's another example of VDOT's transition to proper Clearview. This is on US 60 eastbound in New Kent County. This was taken in November, but an FHWA style sign in all caps was here until July.


VDOT seems to have gotten its act together. This looks pretty decent too.
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cu2010

Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2013, 08:28:58 PM
Yates County, NY appears to have adopted  clearview.  I noticed clearview county and town line signs.

NYSDOT signs, or local ones?

I've seen a few Clearview NYSDOT signs around...one that comes to mind is US9 southbound at the northern terminus of NY9D in Wappingers Falls. I've seen a Clearview sign on NY104 as well.
This is cu2010, reminding you, help control the ugly sign population, don't have your shields spayed or neutered.

vdeane

Good question; I assumed county, since I had only seen them there (NY 14 south entering from Ontario County, and NY 54 entering Penn Yan).  Not that I'd be surprised if NYSDOT adopted clearview, given that they often adopt whatever signing thing the Thruway does after a few years (such as the rounded exit tabs).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.



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