The Clearview thread

[Brandon]

Just as a thought, does anyone find Clearview to be more "feminine" than Highway Gothic?

No.  Clearview reminds me of Transport (which I have a strong dislike for).  It's not the overall shapes of the letters (and numbers for that matter) that bother me, it's the stupidness with some of them.  The silly tail on the lowercase "l", the extra long tail on the "g", the "2", the "6", and the "9".

[Kacie Jane]

I can totally see that. Clearview is curvier than Highway Gothic, and there is definitely an association that blocky = masculine while curvy = feminine. This not only matches the forms of men's and women's bodies, it also mirrors their handwriting. I've noticed that women's handwriting is usually curvier than men's.

Of course it's a chicken-egg problem. Do we perceive curvy text as feminine because women have curvy writing, or do girls develop curvy writing when they learn to write because it's perceived as more feminine?

It didn't occur to me when Pink Jazz originally posed the question, but for this reason (comparing it to handwriting), I'm going to go ahead and say yes as well.  Specifically, I think the larger loops in letters like a and e are a trait of stereotypically feminine handwriting.  Also, I think in part because of those larger loops, there's an optical illusion in effect (to me at least) where lower case letters look larger as a whole in Clearview than they do in Highway Gothic, which would also be a feminine trait.

[vtk]

Also, I think in part because of those larger loops, there's an optical illusion in effect (to me at least) where lower case letters look larger as a whole in Clearview than they do in Highway Gothic,

The lowercase letters actually are larger in Clearview.

[mwb1848]

While driving across Southern Arizona, I noticed a subtle inconsistency on a handful of BGS's. They are clustered along I-10 east of Downtown Tucson. All legend on the BGS's is in Clearview EXCEPT the numeral or fraction indicating mileage to the exit.



(Sorry about the glare; It is Arizona, after all.)

[SignGeek101]

While driving across Southern Arizona, I noticed a subtle inconsistency on a handful of BGS's. They are clustered along I-10 east of Downtown Tucson. All legend on the BGS's is in Clearview EXCEPT the numeral or fraction indicating mileage to the exit.



(Sorry about the glare; It is Arizona, after all.)

It's not just I-10. And it appears Arizona has been doing this for awhile:

http://goo.gl/maps/ZAZGH 

These signs were installed in Jan 2012.

[Pink Jazz]

Based on my observations, distance numerals are not usually in Clearview here in the Phoenix area, although there are some exceptions.  Some even use Clearview for the whole numbers but the fractions in FHWA Series E(M).

[vdeane]

Those Arizona signs remind me of the Thruway ones, especially the exit tab.

[cl94]

Those Arizona signs remind me of the Thruway ones, especially the exit tab.

And as reflective

[vtk]

I seem to recall reading about an early complaint Arizona had regarding Clearview, their sign design software, and composing fractions.  I would guess they made it a policy to make their fractions in EM because they had so much trouble getting them to look right in Clearview.

[Scott5114]

FHWA guidance is to use FHWA Series for the distance legend anyway, so there you go.

[J N Winkler]

I seem to recall reading about an early complaint Arizona had regarding Clearview, their sign design software, and composing fractions.  I would guess they made it a policy to make their fractions in EM because they had so much trouble getting them to look right in Clearview.

Their complaint was with SignCAD, which they require for all of their signing plans (produced in-house and by consultants).  At about the time Arizona adopted Clearview, SignCAD allowed users to enter precomposed fraction rectangles:  the problem was that the numerals were of the correct size when Series E Modified was used, but were too small when Clearview was used.  The initial fix was to require designers to confect the fraction rectangles by hand, rather than using precomposed ones, but this was considerably less convenient.  (TxDOT had the same problem and it is very evident in their Clearview signing plans, but they are less fussy about their signing than Arizona DOT and did nothing to address the issue.)  The current solution--using Series E Modified for all numerals, not just ones in fraction rectangles--came later and seems to have been driven by a general dissatisfaction with Clearview numerals.

[Pink Jazz]

The current solution--using Series E Modified for all numerals, not just ones in fraction rectangles--came later and seems to have been driven by a general dissatisfaction with Clearview numerals.

Numerals for exit numbers continue to use Clearview, however, it seems that distance numerals on most of the newest signs are now in Series E Modified.

[Pink Jazz]

BTW, I wonder if ADOT is doing away with Clearview, since I saw two newly installed signs (for Loop 101 South and McClintock Drive) in Series E Modified at the US 60 Superstition Freeway westbound and the Loop 101 Price Freeway, replacing two of the few leftover button copy signs on the Superstition Freeway.  However, it is possible that these signs may be recycled, since the hazmat prohibition sign displays "HC" instead of the current MUTCD standard "HM".  If they were recycled perhaps they may have been pulled off from the Loop 202 Red Mountain Freeway, considering there is a construction project going on there.

[roadfro]

^ Are surrounding signs in Clearview? Maybe it's a case of it looking better to not have one Clearview sign in a stretch of E Modified signage...?

Could it be a carbon copy of a previous sign plan?

[J N Winkler]

I think recycling is the likeliest explanation.  Arizona DOT doesn't carbon-copy and they are still calling for Clearview in recent signing plans.

[Pink Jazz]

^ Are surrounding signs in Clearview? Maybe it's a case of it looking better to not have one Clearview sign in a stretch of E Modified signage...?

Could it be a carbon copy of a previous sign plan?

The gantry isn't shared with other signs, so I assume they are recycled then, probably taken from the Loop 202 Red Mountain Freeway as part of its widening project and moved to the US 60 Superstition Freeway to replace the old button copy signage.

[busman_49]

I drove to the Cleveland area last week from Dayton.  In recent years, just about everything on 70 from Dayton to just outside Springfield, then on I-71 from the Delaware County line until I exited the highway in West Salem has been changed to Clearview...the more I see it, the more I hate it.

[cl94]

I drove to the Cleveland area last week from Dayton.  In recent years, just about everything on 70 from Dayton to just outside Springfield, then on I-71 from the Delaware County line until I exited the highway in West Salem has been changed to Clearview...the more I see it, the more I hate it.

I-70 is pretty much all-Clearview west of US 42. Makes sense, as a lot of that stretch has been widened or reconstructed recently. Same thing on I-71 - most of it south of I-271 was widened in recent years and overhead signage was installed. Except for services signs, most of the button copy is gone as well, save a few assorted signs mainly in cities.

[Pink Jazz]

Today, I just noticed a newly installed sign in Series E Modified at US 60 and Loop 101 North, this time in the eastbound direction.  This one has the correct MUTCD standard "HM" hazmat prohibition sign on it.

So it looks like ADOT may indeed be doing away with Clearview.  We will know for sure I think once the logo signs go up on the Superstition Freeway sometime in the fall, since all of the Phoenix area logo signs (not counting those that existed prior to 2013 which are part of the rural program) are entirely in Clearview (even though they shouldn't be since the service types on them are in all-caps).

[Pink Jazz]

I just got an update about ADOT, and I got confirmation that ADOT will be discontinuing the use of Clearview due to it likely being rescinded by the FHWA.  However, here is where it gets interesting: ADOT is actually developing new signage specifications, and the plans call for new freeway signage to use Series E, rather than Series E Modified.  Signage for non-freeway roads will primarily use Series D, with some smaller signs (such as street name signs) and width-constrained signs using Series C.

Since the new sign specifications have not been finalized yet, ADOT is probably using Series E Modified for now.

[Pink Jazz]

Looks like most of the logo signs have gone up on the US 60 Superstition Freeway, and to my surprise, they are still in Clearview.  I have seen a few new BGS that use Series E Modified in the interim until ADOT finalizes its new signage specifications, which will use plain Series E for freeways and Series D for non-freeway roads.

[jakeroot]

Looks like most of the logo signs have gone up on the US 60 Superstition Freeway, and to my surprise, they are still in Clearview.  I have seen a few new BGS that use Series E Modified in the interim until ADOT finalizes its new signage specifications, which will use plain Series E for freeways and Series D for non-freeway roads.

I'm no DOT employee, but AFAIK signage specifications can take a long time to develop and implement when a font change occurs.

As for Series E, is it just plain "E", or is it EE(M), which is plain Series E with wider spacing? Like this:

[Pink Jazz]

Looks like most of the logo signs have gone up on the US 60 Superstition Freeway, and to my surprise, they are still in Clearview.  I have seen a few new BGS that use Series E Modified in the interim until ADOT finalizes its new signage specifications, which will use plain Series E for freeways and Series D for non-freeway roads.

I'm no DOT employee, but AFAIK signage specifications can take a long time to develop and implement when a font change occurs.

As for Series E, is it just plain "E", or is it EE(M), which is plain Series E with wider spacing? Like this:

It will be plain Series E.  I have seen a few new signs in Series E Modified (mostly on the US 60 Superstition Freeway), and I assume it is being used in the interim until the new sign specifications are finalized, so I assume ADOT may be reusing a prior specification for these signs. 

As for the logo signs still using Clearview, note that when ADOT launched its urban program in 2013 the specifications for logo signs were changed, with all new logo signs (even in rural areas) now using an exit tab regardless of how many service types are on the sign.  Prior to these new specifications, logo signs with only one service type had both the service type and the exit number in the body of the sign (originally in Series E Modified on older button copy logo signs, then changed to Series D on the switch to retroreflective sheeting).  In addition, the exit tabs are now much larger than they were under the old specifications, with the tab now spanning the entire sign on vertical layout signs.  Since ADOT never used the FHWA series fonts with the current layouts, perhaps this could be the reason why Clearview is still being used for logo signs.  In truth, logo signs really shouldn't be in Clearview due to the all caps text and numerals.

[blanketcomputer]

I noticed a crew replacing signs along Loop 202 Red Mountain in Mesa last night. I drove by today to check them out. They are all Clearview, replacing the original Highway Gothic signs that were installed during initial construction of Loop 202.





This sign used to read "Val Vista Dr 1/4 Mile". Does anyone know about ADOT's policy on listing exit distances?




ADOT has plans to install signs several more nights this week so we can probably expect more Clearview.

[Pink Jazz]

I noticed a crew replacing signs along Loop 202 Red Mountain in Mesa last night. I drove by today to check them out. They are all Clearview, replacing the original Highway Gothic signs that were installed during initial construction of Loop 202.





This sign used to read "Val Vista Dr 1/4 Mile". Does anyone know about ADOT's policy on listing exit distances?




ADOT has plans to install signs several more nights this week so we can probably expect more Clearview.

Interesting that even the numerals on that distance sign are in Clearview.  Early Clearview distance signs used Clearview for all distance numerals including the fractions, but this resulted in the fractions being taller than the whole numbers when using the SignCAD software.  ADOT tried to mitigate this issue by allowing sign designers to draw fraction rectangles in Clearview by hand, but this was too much of a hassle and resulted in fractions that looked funky, thus ADOT reverted to using Series E Modified for fractions.  Later on, the standard practice became to use Series E Modified for all distance numerals, and not just those in fraction rectangles.  I wonder why Clearview is being used for the distance numerals on that sign.