The Clearview thread

[NJ]

[Scott5114]

Looks like most of the logo signs have gone up on the US 60 Superstition Freeway, and to my surprise, they are still in Clearview.  I have seen a few new BGS that use Series E Modified in the interim until ADOT finalizes its new signage specifications, which will use plain Series E for freeways and Series D for non-freeway roads.

I'm no DOT employee, but AFAIK signage specifications can take a long time to develop and implement when a font change occurs.

The AHTD rep that sometimes posts here said, in Arkansas at least, switching back to the traditional fonts is as easy as the engineer clicking a button.

I would imagine it's simpler to go from Clearview back to FHWA Series than the other way around because the FHWA fonts are in the MUTCD, there's no approvals outside of the agency that have to be obtained, the old standards for most signs probably still exist in the archives, etc.

[J N Winkler]

Interesting that even the numerals on that distance sign are in Clearview.  Early Clearview distance signs used Clearview for all distance numerals including the fractions, but this resulted in the fractions being taller than the whole numbers when using the SignCAD software.

The real problem, as I understand it, is that the fraction numerals were too small.

The AHTD rep that sometimes posts here said, in Arkansas at least, switching back to the traditional fonts is as easy as the engineer clicking a button.

I would imagine it's simpler to go from Clearview back to FHWA Series than the other way around because the FHWA fonts are in the MUTCD, there's no approvals outside of the agency that have to be obtained, the old standards for most signs probably still exist in the archives, etc.

Considering that all-uppercase primary destination legend on guide signs is no longer permitted (per 2009 MUTCD), the path of least resistance for Clearview-using agencies wishing to go back to the FHWA Series is probably just to substitute the typefaces in their current Clearview-oriented standards.  For example, IIRC the old Texas standard for D-series signs was 6" all-uppercase Series D with 4.5" interline spacing, while the current standard is mixed-case with 8" uppercase and 6" interline spacing.  Frankly I like this approach better than just substituting mixed-case with same UC letter height for all-uppercase, which is what KDOT has done for its D-series signs.  This compromises legibility and looks awful.

[Scott5114]

I'm not very familiar with KDOT's D-series signs. Do you have an example handy of what the newer mixed-case ones look like?

[SignGeek101]

I've always liked the way Quebec does 'Exit Only' tabs and Clearview. Not too much, no negative contrast and numerals in shields, and looks clean.

[Quillz]

I know the Wiki isn't the most reliable source, but it's been updated recently to state that the interim Clearview permits are going to be canceled, implying Clearview will no longer be allowed in the future.

[NJ]

I know the Wiki isn't the most reliable source, but it's been updated recently to state that the interim Clearview permits are going to be canceled, implying Clearview will no longer be allowed in the future.

So clearview font no longer being used on MUTCD? 

[jakeroot]

I know the Wiki isn't the most reliable source, but it's been updated recently to state that the interim Clearview permits are going to be canceled, implying Clearview will no longer be allowed in the future.

About a year and a half ago, an FHWA employee sent a letter to Gray's Harbor, Washington denying their request for Clearview, stating that the FHWA doesn't intend to issue further approvals. This is the letter in question. Unless there's another part of the article that you're referencing?

[Quillz]

I know the Wiki isn't the most reliable source, but it's been updated recently to state that the interim Clearview permits are going to be canceled, implying Clearview will no longer be allowed in the future.

So clearview font no longer being used on MUTCD? 

It seems this might be the case, although districts that got permission in the past can probably keep using it.

[hbelkins]

I know the Wiki isn't the most reliable source, but it's been updated recently to state that the interim Clearview permits are going to be canceled, implying Clearview will no longer be allowed in the future.

^{citation needed}

Seriously, what does the Wiki entry cite as the source for such a blanket statement? We've all seen the Gray's Harbor letter. But I haven't seen anything definitive that existing permits are going to be cancelled.

[ztonyg]

Looks like most of the logo signs have gone up on the US 60 Superstition Freeway, and to my surprise, they are still in Clearview.  I have seen a few new BGS that use Series E Modified in the interim until ADOT finalizes its new signage specifications, which will use plain Series E for freeways and Series D for non-freeway roads.

It looks like the signage specifications are finalized and ADOT is indeed going to plain Series E for freeways and Series D for non-freeway roads.

The sign specifications are here:

https://www.azdot.gov/business/engineering-and-construction/traffic/manual-of-approved-signs/guide-and-information-signs

[busman_49]

I THINK this is breaking news...
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2016/01/25/2016-01383/national-standards-for-traffic-control-devices-the-manual-on-uniform-traffic-control-devices-for?utm_campaign=subscription+mailing+list&utm_medium=email&utm_source=federalregister.gov

I believe there were rumblings before, but the notice was posted today, making it official.

[cl94]

I THINK this is breaking news...
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2016/01/25/2016-01383/national-standards-for-traffic-control-devices-the-manual-on-uniform-traffic-control-devices-for?utm_campaign=subscription+mailing+list&utm_medium=email&utm_source=federalregister.gov

I believe there were rumblings before, but the notice was posted today, making it official.

There we go. Effective in 30 days. As of February 24, 2016, fonts other than the FHWA series will no longer be permitted on new signage. Clearview is dead in the United States.

Existing signs that meet requirements can remain.

[Zeffy]

It will definitely be interesting to see new signs that pop up in Clearview-heavy states (Maryland, New York Thruway, etc.) that will utilize the FHWA series again. Maybe this will help curtail the ugly sign population.

[noelbotevera]

So now all of the Clearview signs get thrown out, and whatever sign plans were in place to put up Clearview signs after Feb. 24th, are then thrown out after being mounted? Well, now Clearview is gonna be a rarity, so I can't complain.

[cl94]

So now all of the Clearview signs get thrown out, and whatever sign plans were in place to put up Clearview signs after Feb. 24th, are then thrown out after being mounted? Well, now Clearview is gonna be a rarity, so I can't complain.

No. Signs in service can remain. Knowing how PennDOT and NYSTA do things, we'll still be seeing Clearview for a long time. I don't know if this applies to signs that have plans out but will not be installed before the deadline.

It will definitely be interesting to see new signs that pop up in Clearview-heavy states (Maryland, New York Thruway, etc.) that will utilize the FHWA series again. Maybe this will help curtail the ugly sign population.

NYSTA has a new batch of signs in Buffalo that are FHWA. They look quite sharp.

[PHLBOS]

So now all of the Clearview signs get thrown out, and whatever sign plans were in place to put up Clearview signs after Feb. 24th, are then thrown out after being mounted? Well, now Clearview is gonna be a rarity, so I can't complain.

No. Signs in service can remain. Knowing how PennDOT and NYSTA do things, we'll still be seeing Clearview for a long time. I don't know if this applies to signs that have plans out but will not be installed before the deadline.

My guess would be that signage plans w/Clearview already approved but not yet erected will still proceed as scheduled.  OTOH, signage plans still under design and not yet submitted for bids will be impacted by this rescinding.

In short & at least for PA; such could mean a variation of styles on installations like one sees at the I-76/US 202/422 interchanges in King of Prussia (when the interim approval first took effect) or more recently the new/replacement BGS' near the I-95/476 and I-476/MacDade Blvd. interchanges.

[vdeane]

NYSTA has a new batch of signs in Buffalo that are FHWA. They look quite sharp.

I was wondering what the new FHWA Thruway signs would look like.  Are they made to the modern standards, just without the clearview, or did they go back to older standards or something completely different?  Maybe I'll have to swing by on the way to the Toronto meet.

[cl94]

NYSTA has a new batch of signs in Buffalo that are FHWA. They look quite sharp.

I was wondering what the new FHWA Thruway signs would look like.  Are they made to the modern standards, just without the clearview, or did they go back to older standards or something completely different?  Maybe I'll have to swing by on the way to the Toronto meet.

Modern. They look a lot like the signs where the Thruway was widened. They are fully reflective. Near Exit 9, mostly NB. Have a look at one. This one, put up by God knows who, is quite the oddity in the US, though.

[freebrickproductions]

ALDOT was already moving away from Clearview, so nothing much will change here.

[vdeane]

NYSTA has a new batch of signs in Buffalo that are FHWA. They look quite sharp.

I was wondering what the new FHWA Thruway signs would look like.  Are they made to the modern standards, just without the clearview, or did they go back to older standards or something completely different?  Maybe I'll have to swing by on the way to the Toronto meet.

Modern. They look a lot like the signs where the Thruway was widened. They are fully reflective. Near Exit 9, mostly NB. Have a look at one. This one, put up by God knows who, is quite the oddity in the US, though.

Cool.  Looks just like what NYSDOT puts up these days.  Glad they got rid of all that nonreflective stuff too (though I'll withhold final judgement until later - often for these bigger projects, contractors will build the signs to NYSDOT specs instead of NYSTA specs, so that could be why; the same thing happened to the EB signs for I-690 during the exits 39-40 rebuild).  I wouldn't be surprised if the second one was installed by the Peace Bridge.  Looks like a misunderstanding how how APL signs are supposed to work.

[cu2010]

Modern. They look a lot like the signs where the Thruway was widened. They are fully reflective. Near Exit 9, mostly NB. Have a look at one.

The arrows on that I-190 pull-through sign are still much too small, though!

[cl94]

Modern. They look a lot like the signs where the Thruway was widened. They are fully reflective. Near Exit 9, mostly NB. Have a look at one.

The arrows on that I-190 pull-through sign are still much too small, though!

They are, but I'll take them over what NYSDOT has been installing.

NYSTA has a new batch of signs in Buffalo that are FHWA. They look quite sharp.

I was wondering what the new FHWA Thruway signs would look like.  Are they made to the modern standards, just without the clearview, or did they go back to older standards or something completely different?  Maybe I'll have to swing by on the way to the Toronto meet.

Modern. They look a lot like the signs where the Thruway was widened. They are fully reflective. Near Exit 9, mostly NB. Have a look at one. This one, put up by God knows who, is quite the oddity in the US, though.

Cool.  Looks just like what NYSDOT puts up these days.  Glad they got rid of all that nonreflective stuff too (though I'll withhold final judgement until later - often for these bigger projects, contractors will build the signs to NYSDOT specs instead of NYSTA specs, so that could be why; the same thing happened to the EB signs for I-690 during the exits 39-40 rebuild).  I wouldn't be surprised if the second one was installed by the Peace Bridge.  Looks like a misunderstanding how how APL signs are supposed to work.

I know the stuff that isn't on the Thruway is a NYSDOT project, but the signs installed in I-190 do not match Region 5 signage of the same age.

[vdeane]

Could be contractor too.  Reminds me of this: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1066549,-76.2891397,3a,38y,106.36h,84.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1strJeeD2jBi5FAvZ7ILZuLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Or this:


I really, really hope that's the new NYSTA spec, but off-spec signs have snuck onto the Thruway before, even without NYSDOT influence.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I've never been able to figure out where those exit 6A signs came from (the exit 39 ones came from the 39-40 reconstruction project and are likely contractor installs), especially since it's all of them, even on a gantry with other signs in a different style.  Makes me wonder if they were a test installation.

[Pink Jazz]

I wonder if most Clearview states will go back to Series E Modified for most signage, or will they use another FHWA variant?  ADOT has decided to use plain Series E instead of Series E Modified on freeways, Series D on non-freeways, and Series C on street blades.  I also wonder if the FHWA will approve Enhanced E Modified.