The Clearview thread

[Android]

Hey, I'm a newbie here, but I would have joined a year ago had I known about this place! I've been waiting for something better than the boards on the Usenet which I seldom read anymore. 

Anyway, I'm a Clearview hater myself.  Well, hater of about 60% of it, the lowercase and the numbers.   They just look bad to me.  Why could they not have just gone with the modified Highway Gothic I've seen in some cities? 

Down in Fort Collins, CO, where I lived for many years, they also switched to Clearview on their street signs, but the city has never used lowercase, just ALL CAPS on their signs, plus they still use FHWA numbers most of the time.  I have no problem with those. 

Here in Wyoming they have been using Clearview since 2007, mixed case, plus numbers.    but their usage of it really varies.   Since WYDOT puts an plain date code on their signs it's easy to tell how old they are, and I still see new signs in Highway Gothic.  But Wyoming has always had a wild mix of typefaces on their signs,and I don't know why.  I'm not complaining though, I'm happy it's not (yet) turned into total replacement.    I mean, in the last year, I've seen new exit/gore signs in Series D, Series E and Clearview:




Still, as time goes by and I see more and more of it here in Wyoming, I'm starting to get used to Clearview. I still don't like the look of it, as others have said, that lowercase L looks horrible.  But from a far distance they do seem to be perhaps a little bit more legible, but that could also very well be due to the fact the they are still bright shiny new signs. 

My "favorite" one so far around Wyoming is this one with a messed up "y" in Cheyenne:



A while back when they changed one of the Glendo exit signs, I put together this before/after animation.  Which is better?  Well, with that lowercase L in there, it's no contest for me.   

-Andy

[shoptb1]

A while back when they changed one of the Glendo exit signs, I put together this before/after animation.  Which is better?  Well, with that lowercase L in there, it's no contest for me.  

-Andy

Welcome to the forum!  Thanks for posting this animation...I'm going to have to be honest though...I like the Clearview better.  As you'll learn, I'm about the only person on this forum that actually likes Clearview.  However, I would like to state that I think either of the fonts that you've shown are easily readable.  My issue is with the much more difficult-to-read ancient button-copy compared to Clearview, which is the majority of the replacements here in Ohio.

[agentsteel53]

in the case of that animation, the Clearview is more legible, because the FHWA variant is too bold (the E has hardly any hole in it).  But that is a more attractive font; the Clearview hooked "1", curved "l", and pregnant "d" just look silly!

[realjd]

Welcome to the forum!  Thanks for posting this animation...I'm going to have to be honest though...I like the Clearview better.  As you'll learn, I'm about the only person on this forum that actually likes Clearview.   However, I would like to state that I think either of the fonts that you've shown are easily readable.  My issue is with the much more difficult-to-read ancient button-copy compared to Clearview, which is the majority of the replacements here in Ohio.

I'm with you. I do generally like Clearview better, although it's not necessarily for aesthetics. I like to see innovation with our highways, and (as we discussed earlier in the thread), studies did show better legibility in some cases, and similar in others.

And for what it's worth, I do like the lowercase 'l'. Growing up, I was taught to write with tails on letters like 'l', and it always bugged me how "Ill." on signs looked like "III" or "lll" since the capital I in the FHWA font didn't have horizontal strokes.

[Riverside Frwy]

I love Clearview.....letters.

The numbers are absolutely hideous, but overall if Clearview is done right I generally like it better.If I was in charge of the entire highway I would indeed adopt Clearview, but keep the old numbers.I especially love the little "tails" the lower case L's have in Clearview as well.

A high point of Clearview I like is the fact that the letters are aren't as bold and skinnier than standard font, making the sign seem less cluttered.

[agentsteel53]

I love Clearview.....letters.

The numbers are absolutely hideous, but overall if Clearview is done right I generally like it better.If I was in charge of the entire highway I would indeed adopt Clearview, but keep the old numbers.I especially love the little "tails" the lower case L's have in Clearview as well.

A high point of Clearview I like is the fact that the letters are aren't as bold and skinnier than standard font, making the sign seem less cluttered.

well, standard E with EM spacing is also not quite as bold and makes the sign seem less cluttered.

and yes, the numbers are the worst.  Most of the uppercase letters aren't bad, but the lowercase are a mixed bag and the numbers I just can't stand.  They took some good ideas (curved top for 6, bottom for 9 - see New York font) and somehow ruined them!

[Riverside Frwy]

I love Clearview.....letters.

The numbers are absolutely hideous, but overall if Clearview is done right I generally like it better.If I was in charge of the entire highway I would indeed adopt Clearview, but keep the old numbers.I especially love the little "tails" the lower case L's have in Clearview as well.

A high point of Clearview I like is the fact that the letters are aren't as bold and skinnier than standard font, making the sign seem less cluttered.

well, standard E with EM spacing is also not quite as bold and makes the sign seem less cluttered.

and yes, the numbers are the worst.  Most of the uppercase letters aren't bad, but the lowercase are a mixed bag and the numbers I just can't stand.  They took some good ideas (curved top for 6, bottom for 9 - see New York font) and somehow ruined them!

The Problem with the numbers is they are too "broad" (for lack of a better term.) The curves of number(9 and 6 in particular) don't flow with each other.The numbers seem like they have been "stretched" to point that it creates an ugly shape.

Look at my example, I used a red line to demonstrate:


Notice how in the standard font, the curves of the 9 and 6 seem in perfect alignment.The curves aren't bent as much, creating a sexy look.The Clearview numbers looks some nightmare between the "box" look(like the old US Routes signs in AgentSteel's Avatar) and the standard look.

[agentsteel53]

if done right, that style of number can flow quite well.



I don't have an example of a 96 (gee I wonder what font the shield generator needs!); that will have to do for now.  Those numbers are fundamentally identical to clearview 6es but look so much better!

[hbelkins]

First exit north of the Indiana state line in Michigan.

[Hellfighter]

First exit north of the Indiana state line in Michigan.

Ah yes, they've done that on that whole section from Indiana to I-96.

[Riverside Frwy]

That I-69 sign would look beautiful if it used standard numbers...

I really like the Clearview directional, where even though "SOUTH" is all upper-case the S is still bigger than the rest of the word.This makes sense though, as Clearview was designed to be mixed case anyway.

[shoptb1]

I love Clearview.....letters.

The numbers are absolutely hideous, but overall if Clearview is done right I generally like it better.If I was in charge of the entire highway I would indeed adopt Clearview, but keep the old numbers.I especially love the little "tails" the lower case L's have in Clearview as well.

A high point of Clearview I like is the fact that the letters are aren't as bold and skinnier than standard font, making the sign seem less cluttered.

I agree that the numbers are terrible.  However, look at the following two examples.

Here's TERRIBLE (illegible at night as well)




This is one of the best for legibility (Kentucky uses much larger font size on their shields)

[mightyace]

I agree that the numbers are terrible.  However, look at the following two examples.

Here's TERRIBLE (illegible at night as well)

I passed this sign Sunday night (1/3) and had NO TROUBLE reading it!  I also passed by the other sign as well.  And, it was legible, too.

[jdb1234]

Alabama update:

The 8th Ave S signs in button copy on the Red Mountain Expressway have been replaced with this.





I would like the signs better if they would spell out University, but that would not work with the existing sign bridges.  Besides, 8th Ave S has not existed in Birmingham for a long time.

[myosh_tino]

I agree that the numbers are terrible.  However, look at the following two examples.

Here's TERRIBLE (illegible at night as well)

I see nothing wrong with that I-275 shield.  Interstate shields with that sized numbers are pretty common in California...

[Android]

Coming into Cheyenne the other day, I saw a BGS in the far distance and thought to myself "Wow, when did they do that sign in E-Modified?" but as I got closer I realized it was one of the new Clearview signs.  In the far distance the way the light scattered the thinner CV typeface, it looked bolder than it was.  I had to laugh at myself on that one.    But those are pretty new signs... I'd like to see how well these signs look after they get older and dirtier. 

I'm not a big fan of button copy - in its time it did its job, but I can see why it was discontinued once better reflective materials were developed.  ( Although I'm still amazed that no company in China or some other 3rd world country didn't step in to produce a comparable product after the old supplier quit making them - I've seen such opportunism in many things before, especially auto parts.)    But the E-Modified typeface that goes hand-in-hand with button copy, I've always thought it looked somewhat, well, awkward.  The standard EM kerning (spacing between letters) and between words never had a good feel to it for me. And that is with or without the buttons.   

Speaking of awkward kerning, several years ago I decided I wanted the various FHWA highway Gothic letterings as computer fonts, and before I stumbled across the Roadgeek fonts, I was in the process of authoring up my own.  Before I finished though, I found the Roadgeek ones... and well, I combined those with the work I had already done.  Keeping my settings as far as metrics, kerning and spacing though.  I wanted a computer font that worked good to make usable lettering on the screen and in documents, and not to make my own Road signs.   Also, I went the "Extended View" route and incorporated some of the opened up features in like the " a e, s, b and d" to name a few, that I'd seen on signs in Cheyenne and in some Denver suburbs, and in pre-clearview Iowa, among other places. Mostly in the Series D and E, which are the ones I worked on the most and the ones I find most suitable for the computer and for documents.  Had to rework some of the punctuation symbols as well.

But I never plan on using any Clearview fonts on my computer - I mean, while I have the Roadgeek ones, I never touch them.

[vdeane]

if done right, that style of number can flow quite well.



I don't have an example of a 96 (gee I wonder what font the shield generator needs!); that will have to do for now.  Those numbers are fundamentally identical to clearview 6es but look so much better!

Here's a NY 96:

[hm insulators]

Clearview or not, I just want to be able to read the danged sign when I'm on the freeway! I was on a recent trip to the Los Angeles area, and my gosh! There are still quite a large number of the old button-copy signs in southern California, some probably older than I am (I'm 48), and those old signs are so filthy, dirty, nasty and grungy you can't even read them during broad daylight, let alone at night, during which Caltrans decides not to light up the signs at all. I grew up there so I know the L.A./Orange County freeway system like the back of my hand, but what about the people who are just passing through or are otherwise new to the area?

[agentsteel53]

that NY 96 has standard Series F - I'm looking for an older shield with the NY custom font ...

[agentsteel53]

Although I'm still amazed that no company in China or some other 3rd world country didn't step in to produce a comparable product after the old supplier quit making them - I've seen such opportunism in many things before, especially auto parts.

China is still stuck on glass cateyes!    I have ordered some from there but I can make my own glass for much cheaper.  Sorry, China!

[shoptb1]

Clearview or not, I just want to be able to read the danged sign when I'm on the freeway! I was on a recent trip to the Los Angeles area, and my gosh! There are still quite a large number of the old button-copy signs in southern California, some probably older than I am (I'm 48), and those old signs are so filthy, dirty, nasty and grungy you can't even read them during broad daylight, let alone at night, during which Caltrans decides not to light up the signs at all. I grew up there so I know the L.A./Orange County freeway system like the back of my hand, but what about the people who are just passing through or are otherwise new to the area?

According to some folks, we just need to be in awe of their historical value and not worry too much about "function". Sorry, couldn't resist 

[agentsteel53]

According to some folks, we just need to be in awe of their historical value and not worry too much about "function". Sorry, couldn't resist 

I just happen to disagree on their level of dysfunction.  There is the occasional one that is just plain wrong, or lacks critical information (see: East LA Interchange, I-5 southbound) but if the information on them is correct, I think they work just fine!

[TheStranger]

There is the occasional one that is just plain wrong, or lacks critical information (see: East LA Interchange, I-5 southbound) but if the information on them is correct, I think they work just fine!

Which sign in particular on I-5 are you referring to, out of curiosity?

[agentsteel53]

Which sign in particular on I-5 are you referring to, out of curiosity?

all of them.  They are technically correct, but too close together to allow for merging.  There is no single lane to take to stay on I-5 southbound - the best option is to stay in the #2 lane to avoid getting on I-10 westbound, and then switch quickly over to the #3 lane to not get on the 60 by accident.  Usually, by the time you realize you are in the wrong lane, it is too late to switch given how heavy traffic is usually through there.

(this of course does not prevent people from executing a classic Jackass Merge (tm)... Southern California: More Important than You, since 1903.)

[myosh_tino]

Which sign in particular on I-5 are you referring to, out of curiosity?

all of them.  They are technically correct, but too close together to allow for merging.  There is no single lane to take to stay on I-5 southbound - the best option is to stay in the #2 lane to avoid getting on I-10 westbound, and then switch quickly over to the #3 lane to not get on the 60 by accident.  Usually, by the time you realize you are in the wrong lane, it is too late to switch given how heavy traffic is usually through there.

(this of course does not prevent people from executing a classic Jackass Merge (tm)... Southern California: More Important than You, since 1903.)

Looking at the photos on AARoads, it looks like you can stay in either the #2 or #3 lanes to remain on I-5 south.  The #1 lane will take you to CA-60, the #2 lane will keep you on I-5, the #3 lane is an option lane (I-5 or I-10) and the #4 and #5 lanes are for I-10.