The Clearview thread

[agentsteel53]

I'm just curious why so many people seem to hate it. Is it because you're used to the FHWA series, or is there an actual reason?

more than anything, the '70 spec crown height combined with the '57 spec numbers.  that's always looked goofy to me.  Make it up in '57 spec layout, with FHWA numbers, and it may be pretty decent.

[burgess87]

Oh Lord - did I miss something or did negative contrast get approved now?  Or are these signs "illegal"? 
Do I have to change my avatar to this now?     No way!

Ontario's MTO may have approved negative contrast.  I know that NYSTA uses Clearview on those mileage signs at the U-turns, posted under the "No U-Turn" symbol sign.

I really, really hope CV doesn't make it to other signs.

[Quillz]

Oh Lord - did I miss something or did negative contrast get approved now?  Or are these signs "illegal"? 
Do I have to change my avatar to this now?     No way!

Ontario's MTO may have approved negative contrast.  I know that NYSTA uses Clearview on those mileage signs at the U-turns, posted under the "No U-Turn" symbol sign.

I really, really hope CV doesn't make it to other signs.

Well, it probably will as time goes on.

[brownpelican]

I am going to hell for this.

You know what...that's not as bad as I imagined.

[Quillz]

I am going to hell for this.

You know what...that's not as bad as I imagined.

It's really not that bad at all, although I think 2-W works better for double-digit numbers.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

Clearview numerals are hideous.  I'm sorry.

I'd rather see Helvitica numerals used over Clearview numerals.

[agentsteel53]

I'd rather see Helvitica numerals used over Clearview numerals.

I don't think I'd quite go that far! 

[national highway 1]

I'm asking for comments on this fractional distance sign, on H-1 W Exit 3 near North-South Road (Kualakai Pkwy)
I reckon that the froction should be smaller and not look like 'one or two miles'.

[J N Winkler]

It is a very common mistake and there are plenty of signs out there which use Series E or E Modified instead of Clearview which have it too.  I attribute it to bad art in MUTCD 2003.  It was otherwise pattern-accurate but those responsible for the illustrations took the lazy way out and used flat fractions instead of constructing proper fraction rectangles, thus leading uninformed practitioners to think that flat fractions are now acceptable on signs.

[Alex]

I'm asking for comments on this fractional distance sign, on H-1 W Exit 3 near North-South Road (Kualakai Pkwy)
I reckon that the froction should be smaller and not look like 'one or two miles'.

That also was probably a quick fix creation for the interchange that opened in February of this year. Eastbound has a similar temporary type sign. When formal signage goes up, the signage will likely display Kualaka'i Parkway and/or Kapolei. They plan some 12,000 homes out there and the four-lane road was built to accommodate the growth.

One thing I noticed with Hawaii's Clearview is that they sometimes used Clearview numbers in shields:
https://www.aaroads.com/west/hawaii001/i-h001_eb_exit_005_05.jpg
Also they have some end freeway signs (not pictured on the site) with black text on a yellow background in Clearview. I thought that was still not approved (dark Clearview text on a lighter background)?

[Quillz]

It hasn't been approved... Only light text against a dark background is approved, on an interim basis.

[Brandon]

It hasn't been approved... Only light text against a dark background is approved, on an interim basis.

It may not be approved, but I've seen it being used extensively.  Yes, ISTHA, I'm looking squarely at you.

[hbelkins]

Kentucky uses some black on white, and Pennsylvania has black on yellow all over the place.

[Quillz]

It hasn't been approved... Only light text against a dark background is approved, on an interim basis.

It may not be approved, but I've seen it being used extensively.  Yes, ISTHA, I'm looking squarely at you.

Well there are many errors shields and signs all over the country. I believe Michigan uses Clearview highway shields quite extensively even though those aren't current approved.

[rawmustard]

Well there are many errors shields and signs all over the country. I believe Michigan uses Clearview highway shields quite extensively even though those aren't current approved.

Used. The error shields came during the first year or so after MDOT started using Clearview.

[realjd]

Clearview still has only interim approval? I'm not familiar with the process; what does it take to get full approval? It sees like, at this point, rejecting Clearview would be very costly for the many states that use it on their signs.

[J N Winkler]

Clearview still has only interim approval? I'm not familiar with the process; what does it take to get full approval? It sees like, at this point, rejecting Clearview would be very costly for the many states that use it on their signs.

Yup, Clearview still has interim approval only.  To be fully approved it would have to be incorporated into the MUTCD and one chance for that has already come and gone.  As far as I can tell, FHWA has four options with regard to Clearview:

*  Continue the present interim approval indefinitely

*  Write the status quo into the MUTCD during the next revision cycle (FHWA alphabet series remain the defaults, while Clearview remains an option for white-on-dark legend)

*  Abolish Clearview

*  Abolish the FHWA alphabet series

I do not foresee a choice being made anytime soon (e.g., in the next decade), or without a significant amount of additional testing and validation to see how well Clearview's claims of advantage over Series E Modified have survived widespread use.

If FHWA decided to abolish one or the other type system, I would expect a phaseout period for the abolished type system to be set quite long--probably as long as the sheeting lifetime of existing signs which use it.  But, at this point, I don't think either of the abolition options is likely.  What I would personally like is guidance in the MUTCD which more or less aligns with the current interim approval, except that it makes it explicit that Clearview is unacceptable in route shields and in all dark-on-light situations.

[joseph1723]

Ontario's MTO may have approved negative contrast.  I know that NYSTA uses Clearview on those mileage signs at the U-turns, posted under the "No U-Turn" symbol sign.

I really, really hope CV doesn't make it to other signs.

If I'm reading what the MTO says about Clearview correctly it seems that Canada allows using Clearview even in negative contrast signs which is why CV warning and regulatory signs are showing up here

TAC has amended the MUTCD for Canada to allow the use of ClearviewHwy fonts

[TheStranger]

If FHWA decided to abolish one or the other type system, I would expect a phaseout period for the abolished type system to be set quite long--probably as long as the sheeting lifetime of existing signs which use it.  But, at this point, I don't think either of the abolition options is likely.  What I would personally like is guidance in the MUTCD which more or less aligns with the current interim approval, except that it makes it explicit that Clearview is unacceptable in route shields and in all dark-on-light situations.

This actually makes me ask:

In the 1950s, when we had several different types of legend-font arrangements in place (all-caps Series E, mixed case Series E, mixed-case directionals (in general), Division of Highways mid-1950s D caps and E(M) letters, and the standard of mixed-case E(M)...did a similar testing process lead to the nationwide (except Georgia) adoption of E(M) for highway sign legends?

[agentsteel53]

Georgia had EM until recently.  certainly during the button copy era, they were buying EM letters and numbers from AGA, just like the other states.

[Scott5114]

Further, the use of the Clearview alternative lettering style is subject to the terms of an Interim Approval, which was issued based on a modest legibility improvement under certain nighttime viewing conditions for mixed-case destination legends composed of Series 5-W of this alternative alphabet on signs using microprismatic retroreflective sheeting in a positive-contrast color orientation only.

Someone else quoted this in the thread on NY sign blades. Am I the only one who gets a chuckle out of the number of qualifications they had to put on that just so they could say it was a "modest" legibility improvement? Maybe FHWA isn't as confident about Clearview as we had thought.

They may as well have said "This new font is a modest legibility improvement between 9:59 PM and 10:33 PM on Saturdays in June while traveling westbound on an odd-numbered highway going between 57 and 66 MPH, in the southernmost 16 counties in Arkansas or Tennessee, when the moon is a waxing gibbous, the driver is between 5'3" and 5'6" and has exercised twice or more in the past three weeks, and driving a Ford or Hyundai manufactured no more that than 17.3 years ago."

[agentsteel53]

They may as well have said "This new font is a modest legibility improvement between 9:59 PM and 10:33 PM on Saturdays in June while traveling westbound on an odd-numbered highway going between 57 and 66 MPH, in the southernmost 16 counties in Arkansas or Tennessee, when the moon is a waxing gibbous, the driver is between 5'3" and 5'6" and has exercised twice or more in the past three weeks, and driving a Ford or Hyundai manufactured no more that than 17.3 years ago."

but the improvement is only for the left eye.

[The Premier]

Georgia had EM until recently.  certainly during the button copy era, they were buying EM letters and numbers from AGA, just like the other states.

What is AGA?

[J N Winkler]

AGA = American Gas Accumulator Co. = one of the earliest manufacturers of letter-frame button copy.  It was subsequently absorbed into Stimsonite.

[agentsteel53]

AGA = American Gas Accumulator Co. = one of the earliest manufacturers of letter-frame button copy.  It was subsequently absorbed into Stimsonite.

here I thought Stimsonite was just a brand name, as made by AGA, and it was Avery-Dennison that brought that line from AGA.  Or maybe A-D bought AGA entirely.  I am not sure if AGA is still around.  Avery-Dennison still makes Stimsonite, but alas only in 2" and greater sizes.