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Author Topic: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings  (Read 15221 times)

jeffandnicole

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2016, 02:09:49 PM »

[AZ junction photo]
I'm trying to work out why you would ever want to encourage people to block the box like that.

[ZA junction photo]
That works because you don't have people blocking the intersection itself.  Emergency vehicles could still go through and you're not having to wait for the intersection to drain at the start of each green as a result of people stopping in the intersection.

Paul, I've been through this with you before. Pulling into the junction to wait to turn left is not blocking the box. Blocking the box is when you enter a junction but cannot exit the box because your intended roadway is full with other cars. That brief moment after your light turns red, and before you've left the junction, is when you "clear" the junction. You have legally entered the intersection on a non-red signal, and you have the right of way.

He's an example of why people need to score perfect scores on driving tests. I would hate for him to come to a congested area without left turn signals...he"d be able to get a pizza delivered before.finally able to make a left turn. Not to mention the congestion that'll build up behind him.
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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2016, 03:05:22 PM »

I remember racing another driver from A to B in Chicago rush-hour traffic on city streets. The deciding factor was the ability to turn left without an arrow.
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Otto Yamamoto

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2016, 08:15:40 PM »

NYC uses double white lines to discourage crossing lanes on one way roads.

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2016, 08:27:00 PM »

Pretty sure changing lanes across a double white is illegal under NYS law.
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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2016, 09:03:23 PM »

Pretty sure changing lanes across a double white is illegal under NYS law.

I think it's illegal in most places.
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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2016, 09:38:52 PM »

Pretty sure changing lanes across a double white is illegal under NYS law.

I think it's illegal in most places.

It's illegal everywhere per MUTCD.
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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2016, 04:56:53 PM »

Several intersections along Speedway Blvd in Tucson, AZ have secondary "yield" lines for the left turns.

These are very common in other countries, but I've never seen them used before in the US. I quite like them, as it encourages traffic to wait past the stop line (helpful with leading lefts).



You're supposed to pull straight into the intersection.  That's a terrible angle to have people stop at.  It's more likely that one may get pushed into oncoming traffic at that angle if hit.

This.  Never wait to make a left turn with your car facing at a diagonal, in case someone hits you from behind.  And in response to more recent attempts at refutation:  Fender benders occur at a much greater incidence than some guy coming from the straight lane and hitting you at an angle.
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jakeroot

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2016, 05:43:34 PM »

Several intersections along Speedway Blvd in Tucson, AZ have secondary "yield" lines for the left turns.

These are very common in other countries, but I've never seen them used before in the US. I quite like them, as it encourages traffic to wait past the stop line (helpful with leading lefts).

You're supposed to pull straight into the intersection.  That's a terrible angle to have people stop at.  It's more likely that one may get pushed into oncoming traffic at that angle if hit.

This.  Never wait to make a left turn with your car facing at a diagonal, in case someone hits you from behind.  And in response to more recent attempts at refutation:  Fender benders occur at a much greater incidence than some guy coming from the straight lane and hitting you at an angle.

I just can't go along with this. How often do people fly into a left turn lane, only to slam into the car waiting to turn? This implies that they were looking enough to enter the turn lane, but then stopped paying attention between that point, and colliding with the person waiting. And even if they were only just barely paying attention, they should know there was a signal ahead, and that they'd probably have to yield.

When I turn left, I position my car where I have the best visbility (I'd reckon turning blind into oncoming traffic produces more severe collisions). In the case of the Tucson junction above, I'd assume it's exactly where the waiting lines are (you couldn't really pull straight into that junction without blocking the oncoming left turn anyway).

If someone has some study that conclusively shows waiting at angle to be more dangerous, please bring it forward.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 05:46:38 PM by jakeroot »
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2016, 05:38:58 AM »

[AZ junction photo]
I'm trying to work out why you would ever want to encourage people to block the box like that.

[ZA junction photo]
That works because you don't have people blocking the intersection itself.  Emergency vehicles could still go through and you're not having to wait for the intersection to drain at the start of each green as a result of people stopping in the intersection.

Paul, I've been through this with you before. Pulling into the junction to wait to turn left is not blocking the box. Blocking the box is when you enter a junction but cannot exit the box because your intended roadway is full with other cars. That brief moment after your light turns red, and before you've left the junction, is when you "clear" the junction. You have legally entered the intersection on a non-red signal, and you have the right of way.

He's an example of why people need to score perfect scores on driving tests. I would hate for him to come to a congested area without left turn signals...he"d be able to get a pizza delivered before.finally able to make a left turn. Not to mention the congestion that'll build up behind him.

I only got an obscure question involving how fast ambulances can go during an emergency on the Oregon exam, perfect on the Oklahoma exam.  Permissive lefts aren't that hard when starting from outside the box.  Just like starting from inside the box, except you're not being a jackass.
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jakeroot

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2016, 12:29:19 PM »

[AZ junction photo]
I'm trying to work out why you would ever want to encourage people to block the box like that.

[ZA junction photo]
That works because you don't have people blocking the intersection itself.  Emergency vehicles could still go through and you're not having to wait for the intersection to drain at the start of each green as a result of people stopping in the intersection.

Paul, I've been through this with you before. Pulling into the junction to wait to turn left is not blocking the box. Blocking the box is when you enter a junction but cannot exit the box because your intended roadway is full with other cars. That brief moment after your light turns red, and before you've left the junction, is when you "clear" the junction. You have legally entered the intersection on a non-red signal, and you have the right of way.

He's an example of why people need to score perfect scores on driving tests. I would hate for him to come to a congested area without left turn signals...he"d be able to get a pizza delivered before.finally able to make a left turn. Not to mention the congestion that'll build up behind him.

I only got an obscure question involving how fast ambulances can go during an emergency on the Oregon exam, perfect on the Oklahoma exam.  Permissive lefts aren't that hard when starting from outside the box.  Just like starting from inside the box, except you're not being a jackass.

Permissive turns are almost impossible starting outside the box. You can't enter a junction on red (if oncoming traffic is too heavy, you won't be able to make the turn unless you pull forward into the box). You can enter it on green, however. Stopping behind the line makes sense on a red light. But on green? Not at all.

FWIW, Here's the road rules for turning right in the UK:

Quote from: UK Highway Code Rule 174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.



The rules are basically the same here in the US.
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Brandon

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2016, 12:49:58 PM »

[AZ junction photo]
I'm trying to work out why you would ever want to encourage people to block the box like that.

[ZA junction photo]
That works because you don't have people blocking the intersection itself.  Emergency vehicles could still go through and you're not having to wait for the intersection to drain at the start of each green as a result of people stopping in the intersection.

Paul, I've been through this with you before. Pulling into the junction to wait to turn left is not blocking the box. Blocking the box is when you enter a junction but cannot exit the box because your intended roadway is full with other cars. That brief moment after your light turns red, and before you've left the junction, is when you "clear" the junction. You have legally entered the intersection on a non-red signal, and you have the right of way.

He's an example of why people need to score perfect scores on driving tests. I would hate for him to come to a congested area without left turn signals...he"d be able to get a pizza delivered before.finally able to make a left turn. Not to mention the congestion that'll build up behind him.

I only got an obscure question involving how fast ambulances can go during an emergency on the Oregon exam, perfect on the Oklahoma exam.  Permissive lefts aren't that hard when starting from outside the box.  Just like starting from inside the box, except you're not being a jackass.

Permissive turns are almost impossible starting outside the box. You can't enter a junction on red (if oncoming traffic is too heavy, you won't be able to make the turn unless you pull forward into the box). You can enter it on green, however. Stopping behind the line makes sense on a red light. But on green? Not at all.

FWIW, Here's the road rules for turning right in the UK:

Quote from: UK Highway Code Rule 174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.



The rules are basically the same here in the US.

As seen here in the Illinois Rules of the Road:

Page 22:

Quote
A driver must yield the right of way to other drivers or pedestrians:

To oncoming traffic when making a left-hand turn. If you enter an intersection while
the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red.
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cbeach40

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2016, 02:54:43 PM »

I just can't go along with this. How often do people fly into a left turn lane, only to slam into the car waiting to turn?

More than none.

This implies that they were looking enough to enter the turn lane, but then stopped paying attention between that point, and colliding with the person waiting. And even if they were only just barely paying attention, they should know there was a signal ahead, and that they'd probably have to yield.

Most drivers approaching signals don't think, "Oh I'll probably have to yield." they think, "Oh shit, I have to catch that light!"

There are two reasons why rear end collisions make up the majority of crashes at signalized intersections - one is that they didn't expect it at all, the other is that drivers become much more aggressive as they approach them.

When I turn left, I position my car where I have the best visbility (I'd reckon turning blind into oncoming traffic produces more severe collisions). In the case of the Tucson junction above, I'd assume it's exactly where the waiting lines are (you couldn't really pull straight into that junction without blocking the oncoming left turn anyway).

Going back to my earlier statement, if they'd have half a bit of sense when they

Hey, gotta make up for their lousy median design somehow. Why not make it worse?   :banghead:

I would rather have the left turn lanes pointing at each other, but you gotta make do with what you got.

In this case, Tucson wants the cars to wait at that angle so opposing traffic has better visibility. If they waited at the stop line, oncoming cars might be blocked behind traffic waiting to turn left.

You don't have to make do with what you've got when given the crosswalks it was clearly designed this way. By narrowing/eliminating the median at the intersection, you put your opposing left turns on better sight lines, and you reduce your conflict on the turning radius between those turns.
And it's not like they don't know how to do it, there's a pile of intersections along that very same road where they got it right.

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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2016, 06:07:57 AM »

[AZ junction photo]
I'm trying to work out why you would ever want to encourage people to block the box like that.

[ZA junction photo]
That works because you don't have people blocking the intersection itself.  Emergency vehicles could still go through and you're not having to wait for the intersection to drain at the start of each green as a result of people stopping in the intersection.

Paul, I've been through this with you before. Pulling into the junction to wait to turn left is not blocking the box. Blocking the box is when you enter a junction but cannot exit the box because your intended roadway is full with other cars. That brief moment after your light turns red, and before you've left the junction, is when you "clear" the junction. You have legally entered the intersection on a non-red signal, and you have the right of way.

He's an example of why people need to score perfect scores on driving tests. I would hate for him to come to a congested area without left turn signals...he"d be able to get a pizza delivered before.finally able to make a left turn. Not to mention the congestion that'll build up behind him.

I only got an obscure question involving how fast ambulances can go during an emergency on the Oregon exam, perfect on the Oklahoma exam.  Permissive lefts aren't that hard when starting from outside the box.  Just like starting from inside the box, except you're not being a jackass.

Permissive turns are almost impossible starting outside the box. You can't enter a junction on red (if oncoming traffic is too heavy, you won't be able to make the turn unless you pull forward into the box). You can enter it on green, however.

Sure, if you can exit the intersection in the same movement.  I'm not aware of any state that works otherwise, but you're welcome to provide citation.  If you have difficulty hanging a permissive left in one movement, maybe go around the block or bring it up with the transportation planner.  Blocking the intersection presents a hazard for not just traffic getting released by a green if you end up sitting into the red, and emergency vehicles that may need to traverse against the signal.  Also a good way to never get a protected phase, since most signal systems will only detect for vehicles waiting where they should.
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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2016, 12:51:22 PM »

In NY, the first car in line can pull forward into the intersection to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic to make the turn.  If traffic is heavy and there isn't a left turn arrow, it might be the only way to make your turn.  This is encouraged by the NY drivers manual.  It's legal to exit the intersection in a red if you entered in a green (or yellow), regardless of whether it takes one movement or not.  Traffic is required to yield to vehicles already in the intersection.
https://dmv.ny.gov/about-dmv/chapter-5-intersections-and-turns#rgh-way
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jakeroot

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2016, 02:59:02 PM »

Permissive turns are almost impossible starting outside the box. You can't enter a junction on red (if oncoming traffic is too heavy, you won't be able to make the turn unless you pull forward into the box). You can enter it on green, however.

Sure, if you can exit the intersection in the same movement.  I'm not aware of any state that works otherwise, but you're welcome to provide citation.

Besides vdeane's post above which clearly outlines pulling forward as legal, there is no law that requires any maneuver to be completed in one go.

If there were something to cite, it would be your point -- things are legal unless stated otherwise. Thus, it is legal to complete a turn in several stages, unless stated otherwise.

You are the one who needs to cite the law, baloo.

If you have difficulty hanging a permissive left in one movement, maybe go around the block or bring it up with the transportation planner.

But I don't need to do either of those things, because I can turn after the light turns red (no arrow needed). The only people having trouble turning left are those stopping at the stop line on a green light.

Blocking the intersection presents a hazard for not just traffic getting released by a green if you end up sitting into the red, and emergency vehicles that may need to traverse against the signal. 

How are either a hazard? Emergency vehicles are blocked by plenty of other cars if they are traversing an intersection on a red light (those waiting to turn left are far from their only hazard), and those setting off after their light turn green are required to yield to you. If they crash into you, it's their fault. Not that I've ever heard of that happening, mind you.

Also a good way to never get a protected phase, since most signal systems will only detect for vehicles waiting where they should.

But you don't need a protected phase to turn left. Assuming the oncoming road is 100% saturated, there will be no gaps to turn during the green phase. But, there will be a gap between the point when oncoming traffic stops (after the light turns red), and when the side street gets its green. That is the point in which you turn. As long as you passed over the stop line before the light turned red (i.e. pulling into the intersection to wait), this is very much a legal maneuver, because you entered on a non-red signal.
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jakeroot

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2016, 04:19:28 PM »

I just can't go along with this. How often do people fly into a left turn lane, only to slam into the car waiting to turn?

More than none.

Well of course.

This implies that they were looking enough to enter the turn lane, but then stopped paying attention between that point, and colliding with the person waiting. And even if they were only just barely paying attention, they should know there was a signal ahead, and that they'd probably have to yield.

Most drivers approaching signals don't think, "Oh I'll probably have to yield." they think, "Oh shit, I have to catch that light!"

There are two reasons why rear end collisions make up the majority of crashes at signalized intersections - one is that they didn't expect it at all, the other is that drivers become much more aggressive as they approach them.

So "most" drivers are shit? It's funny to think that, but I don't think its accurate. Most drivers are trained that left turns are yield situations (unless there's an arrow). Whether they speed up approaching the left turn or not, slamming into a stopped car is not really connected to aggressive behaviour. It's connected to "not paying attention", which seems unlikely to me because most turn lanes are "pockets", and are fairly short. How exactly does one stop paying attention between entering the pocket and rear-ending someone turning left? Obviously said scenario is possible. If I said otherwise, I retract that statement. But such a collision would seem to be more of a theory than a reality. It just seems really, really unlikely.

Just as a random challenge (you don't have to accept it, because it's a little ridiculous), go ahead and find a video on Youtube of a rear-end crash in a left turn lane. I don't think I've ever seen one.

When I turn left, I position my car where I have the best visbility (I'd reckon turning blind into oncoming traffic produces more severe collisions). In the case of the Tucson junction above, I'd assume it's exactly where the waiting lines are (you couldn't really pull straight into that junction without blocking the oncoming left turn anyway).

Going back to my earlier statement, if they'd have half a bit of sense when they

Hey, gotta make up for their lousy median design somehow. Why not make it worse?   :banghead:

I would rather have the left turn lanes pointing at each other, but you gotta make do with what you got.

In this case, Tucson wants the cars to wait at that angle so opposing traffic has better visibility. If they waited at the stop line, oncoming cars might be blocked behind traffic waiting to turn left.

You don't have to make do with what you've got when given the crosswalks it was clearly designed this way. By narrowing/eliminating the median at the intersection, you put your opposing left turns on better sight lines, and you reduce your conflict on the turning radius between those turns.
And it's not like they don't know how to do it, there's a pile of intersections along that very same road where they got it right.

I won't disagree with this. I have always preferred left turn lanes to point at each other. But you would agree that the best waiting position at the current intersection is where the "yield" lines are now, right?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 04:22:12 PM by jakeroot »
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Brandon

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2016, 07:33:51 PM »

Sure, if you can exit the intersection in the same movement.  I'm not aware of any state that works otherwise, but you're welcome to provide citation.  If you have difficulty hanging a permissive left in one movement, maybe go around the block or bring it up with the transportation planner.  Blocking the intersection presents a hazard for not just traffic getting released by a green if you end up sitting into the red, and emergency vehicles that may need to traverse against the signal.  Also a good way to never get a protected phase, since most signal systems will only detect for vehicles waiting where they should.

Baloo, you are really dense.

I cited the Illinois Rules of the Road on it above.

As seen here in the Illinois Rules of the Road:

Page 22:

Quote
A driver must yield the right of way to other drivers or pedestrians:

To oncoming traffic when making a left-hand turn. If you enter an intersection while
the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red.
[/quote]

Here's from the Michigan What Every Drive Must Know.

Chapter 3, Page 24:

Quote
If   you  have  entered  an  intersection  when  the  signal  light 
changes, complete your turn as soon as traffic clears.  Do not
try to back up in an effort to avoid blocking the intersection.

In both cases, they allow you to enter the intersection and clear when the signal turns.
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jakeroot

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2016, 01:16:16 AM »

By narrowing/eliminating the median at the intersection, you put your opposing left turns on better sight lines, and you reduce your conflict on the turning radius between those turns.
And it's not like they don't know how to do it, there's a pile of intersections along that very same road where they got it right.

Just out of curiosity (after a week's thinking), do you think is there a better design for the numerous dual left turns that Tucson possesses? The waiting points for many of these dual turns is at an angle (note the cars in the photo below). The inside lane generally points straight, but the outside lane, for better or worse, has a waiting point that is at more of an angle than the inside turn.

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2016, 03:15:54 PM »

Make them protected left turns, then you don't need traffic to wait in the intersection. Having them permissive like that looks like an accident waiting to happen.
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jakeroot

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2016, 04:28:47 PM »

Make them protected left turns, then you don't need traffic to wait in the intersection. Having them permissive like that looks like an accident waiting to happen.

As long as we're glazing over the fact that I have a strong bias towards dual permissive turns, Tucson has a very pro-permissive phasing agenda. They have almost no protected left turns anywhere. Just browse around Street View, and you'll see what I mean. If you do find one, it's either related to a military base, or it's outside the city's jurisdiction.

Tucson has been using dual permissive left turns since the 70s, and they continue to install them today. According to the FHWA, "the protected-permissive "offset" dual lefts are used on very high volume city streets (with ADTs exceeding 80,000). The capacity of the left-turn movement increases 75 to 80 percent and left-turn crashes increase only insignificantly with the protected-permissive phasing is implemented."

Also, from the city of Tucson website:

Quote from: City of Tucson website
Protected Left Turn Arrows
Protected left turn signals include a red arrow along with the normal green and amber arrow. They allow left turning drivers to proceed only on the green arrow. This turning method is very inefficient and generally not used in Tucson. Adding inefficiencies to signal timing reduces overall capacity and increases congestion. With increased congestion comes the potential for an increase in certain types of accidents.

Permitted/Protected Left Turn Arrows
This is the most common turning method used in Tucson at locations having left turn arrows. During the permitted "green ball" part of the cycle, vehicles are allowed to turn when there are adequate gaps in opposing traffic. This type of left turn phasing is designed to help minimize delay by eliminating the need for the red arrow and allowing vehicles to turn on the green ball after opposing traffic has cleared. By not having the red arrow, motorists do not have to sit and wait to turn left even when there is no opposing traffic, a situation that often occurs during periods of low traffic volumes. The signal still provides a green left turn arrow for those not able to turn during the permitted phase.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 12:08:18 AM by jakeroot »
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steviep24

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2016, 04:44:03 PM »

NYSDOT has been painting arrows on freeway off ramps recently to help prevent wrong way drivers. I've seen them on one way streets as well.
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riiga

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2016, 04:42:17 AM »

Interesting approach indeed.

By not having the red arrow, motorists do not have to sit and wait to turn left even when there is no opposing traffic, a situation that often occurs during periods of low traffic volumes. The signal still provides a green left turn arrow for those not able to turn during the permitted phase.

Wouldn't that be solvable by having dynamic phases? When traffic going straight clears the induction loop detects this and allow left turns, just like the last protected phase with the green arrow. I don't see anyone turning during the permissive phase with oncoming traffic anyway, and if traffic is light enough then the left turn should get priority dynamically by terminating the going straight phase early.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2016, 08:38:51 AM »

Interesting approach indeed.

By not having the red arrow, motorists do not have to sit and wait to turn left even when there is no opposing traffic, a situation that often occurs during periods of low traffic volumes. The signal still provides a green left turn arrow for those not able to turn during the permitted phase.

Wouldn't that be solvable by having dynamic phases? When traffic going straight clears the induction loop detects this and allow left turns, just like the last protected phase with the green arrow. I don't see anyone turning during the permissive phase with oncoming traffic anyway, and if traffic is light enough then the left turn should get priority dynamically by terminating the going straight phase early.

Sometimes the gaps are small. Just because there's time for a few cars to turn doesn't mean you stop all traffic because of that small gap.
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jakeroot

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2016, 06:55:47 PM »

Interesting approach indeed.

By not having the red arrow, motorists do not have to sit and wait to turn left even when there is no opposing traffic, a situation that often occurs during periods of low traffic volumes. The signal still provides a green left turn arrow for those not able to turn during the permitted phase.

Wouldn't that be solvable by having dynamic phases? When traffic going straight clears the induction loop detects this and allow left turns, just like the last protected phase with the green arrow. I don't see anyone turning during the permissive phase with oncoming traffic anyway, and if traffic is light enough then the left turn should get priority dynamically by terminating the going straight phase early.

You could do that. But I don't see the issue with dual turns having permissive phasing. It sounds like a worse idea than it is. Places that use it, quite like it. Places that don't have it are too scared to try it.

In a Virginia DOT guidebook from several years ago, several PEs from around the US commented on their dual turn phasing preferences (they all worked for various cities as traffic engineers). This PDF shows their responses. The vast majority mention permissive phasing at dual turns, and how they generally work just fine.

FWIW, Denmark has several dual permissive turns. Never seen any anywhere else in Europe, though.
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KEVIN_224

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Re: Innovative, Unique, or Strange Lane Markings
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2016, 07:05:32 PM »

I saw this in Philadelphia today. Two lanes were marked as such, as traffic went around City Hall in Center City. A right from these two lanes begins South Broad Street, a portion of PA Route 611.

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