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Author Topic: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals  (Read 3942 times)

freebrickproductions

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #75 on: August 11, 2017, 02:10:40 PM »

But, like with euoropean signs, there is no way to guess the meaning of FYA. You know it or you don't. And that put it in a different class compared to font color issues.
That's why, just like most doghouse traffic lights, they have signs posted next to them explaining the meaning of the permissive indication, along with the cities/towns/DOTs and news agencies providing information about how they work.
Besides, the majority of the motoring public seems to have been able to understand them fairly quickly, as very rarely do I see a driver who doesn't understand a FYA signal.

Just face it, the FYA is a superior signal in just about every case, and can be understood by the public just as easily as a doghouse or inline-5 signal. The FHWA wouldn't have adopted them into the MUTCD had they not been just as easily understood as a doghouse while being an overall better signal.
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kalvado

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #76 on: August 11, 2017, 03:03:04 PM »

But, like with euoropean signs, there is no way to guess the meaning of FYA. You know it or you don't. And that put it in a different class compared to font color issues.
That's why, just like most doghouse traffic lights, they have signs posted next to them explaining the meaning of the permissive indication, along with the cities/towns/DOTs and news agencies providing information about how they work.
Besides, the majority of the motoring public seems to have been able to understand them fairly quickly, as very rarely do I see a driver who doesn't understand a FYA signal.

Just face it, the FYA is a superior signal in just about every case, and can be understood by the public just as easily as a doghouse or inline-5 signal. The FHWA wouldn't have adopted them into the MUTCD had they not been just as easily understood as a doghouse while being an overall better signal.
Well, unlike roundabouts, my concerns are procedural, not fundamental. I suspect in many cases benefits of FYA are overrated, but it does have a place in road design toolbox.   
 And no, I saw few FYA over here - and no single explanation. And I don't have enough data to make any conclusions about how well it is understood, though. Yes, it is just a matter of spreading the word, though. 
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UCFKnights

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #77 on: August 11, 2017, 09:27:07 PM »

But, like with euoropean signs, there is no way to guess the meaning of FYA. You know it or you don't. And that put it in a different class compared to font color issues.
That's why, just like most doghouse traffic lights, they have signs posted next to them explaining the meaning of the permissive indication, along with the cities/towns/DOTs and news agencies providing information about how they work.
Besides, the majority of the motoring public seems to have been able to understand them fairly quickly, as very rarely do I see a driver who doesn't understand a FYA signal.

Just face it, the FYA is a superior signal in just about every case, and can be understood by the public just as easily as a doghouse or inline-5 signal. The FHWA wouldn't have adopted them into the MUTCD had they not been just as easily understood as a doghouse while being an overall better signal.
Well, unlike roundabouts, my concerns are procedural, not fundamental. I suspect in many cases benefits of FYA are overrated, but it does have a place in road design toolbox.   
 And no, I saw few FYA over here - and no single explanation. And I don't have enough data to make any conclusions about how well it is understood, though. Yes, it is just a matter of spreading the word, though.
But even if the benefits are overrated, what would be the drawback? Other then a little bit of driver familiarity, it seems the answer to that is "none"

Keep in mind too that while the doghouses were the most popular way to do PPLT, many agencies did recognize the problems with it, and other alternatives are in use throughout the nation (dallas phasing, flashing balls for left turn signals, flashing red arrows, etc). This provides a consistent problem to the solution and not only obsoletes the doghouse, but the other alternatives as well.
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kalvado

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2017, 06:34:30 AM »


But even if the benefits are overrated, what would be the drawback? Other then a little bit of driver familiarity, it seems the answer to that is "none"

Keep in mind too that while the doghouses were the most popular way to do PPLT, many agencies did recognize the problems with it, and other alternatives are in use throughout the nation (dallas phasing, flashing balls for left turn signals, flashing red arrows, etc). This provides a consistent problem to the solution and not only obsoletes the doghouse, but the other alternatives as well.
What are the drawbacks other than a big one? well, if you don't consider that a showstopper to begin with...
Actually, a good question - how to force feed information to all drivers? I thought about that for a while, and my best idea is to have a "road laws update" leaflet and a short quiz to get license renewed. I would include roundabout refresh, FYA, SPUI, maybe DDI (although we don't have any in the state, I believe) and move over for current cycle. Probably would require a lot of laws to be changed, though... 

As for doghouse.. Maybe I wasn't very clear - my original question was " is it OK to keep the doghouse and use yellow arrow in middle left as FYA?" and "is it OK to attach FYA to a doghouse, if previous one is not OK?"
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mrsman

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2017, 10:14:15 AM »


But even if the benefits are overrated, what would be the drawback? Other then a little bit of driver familiarity, it seems the answer to that is "none"

Keep in mind too that while the doghouses were the most popular way to do PPLT, many agencies did recognize the problems with it, and other alternatives are in use throughout the nation (dallas phasing, flashing balls for left turn signals, flashing red arrows, etc). This provides a consistent problem to the solution and not only obsoletes the doghouse, but the other alternatives as well.
What are the drawbacks other than a big one? well, if you don't consider that a showstopper to begin with...
Actually, a good question - how to force feed information to all drivers? I thought about that for a while, and my best idea is to have a "road laws update" leaflet and a short quiz to get license renewed. I would include roundabout refresh, FYA, SPUI, maybe DDI (although we don't have any in the state, I believe) and move over for current cycle. Probably would require a lot of laws to be changed, though... 

As for doghouse.. Maybe I wasn't very clear - my original question was " is it OK to keep the doghouse and use yellow arrow in middle left as FYA?" and "is it OK to attach FYA to a doghouse, if previous one is not OK?"

I agree with the idea of a leaflet that should come in the mail with your registration renewal.  I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.  There are all sorts of recent driving laws that have come about that didn't exist when I first learned to drive 25 years ago.  MD has a move over law for emergency vehicles that stop along the side of the road.   Many states are also incorporating KREPT and there also always seem to be some kind of change with the levels of fines and other standards.

In some places, there are new speed limits as well.  NYC now has a default of 25, but that is pretty well signed.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2017, 01:38:10 PM »

I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.

Oklahoma divides the safety and tax responsibilities, and it makes for a far smoother experience than most states.  Turns out the UNIX method of "do one thing, and one thing well" works for government agencies as well.  Go to the Department of Public Safety for your test, and the Tag Agent to pay for the card.  There's very rarely a line for either one.  I took my Oklahoma driver's test (they retest everyone from a state with significantly different laws, and I was turning in an Oregon license) in a single lunch hour and paid to get my license changed from the free instate license DPS gives you over to the card that can also be used as an ID and to drive in other states after work and still made it home before the end of rush hour.
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vdeane

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2017, 07:11:40 PM »

I agree with the idea of a leaflet that should come in the mail with your registration renewal.  I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.
Every 2 years?  Around here, a driver's licence is good for 8!  Not sure how vehicle registration got mixed into the conversation.
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jakeroot

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2017, 07:34:27 PM »

I agree with the idea of a leaflet that should come in the mail with your registration renewal.  I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.

Every 2 years?  Around here, a driver's licence is good for 8!  Not sure how vehicle registration got mixed into the conversation.

When you get new tabs, included would be a leaflet that covers any new traffic control devices. Some states like Oregon would be handicapped due to 2-year registrations.

Re-sitting a test every 6 or 8 years doesn't sound unreasonable to me. You could do it online. Maybe build an app or something.
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kalvado

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2017, 08:30:45 PM »

I agree with the idea of a leaflet that should come in the mail with your registration renewal.  I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.

Every 2 years?  Around here, a driver's licence is good for 8!  Not sure how vehicle registration got mixed into the conversation.

When you get new tabs, included would be a leaflet that covers any new traffic control devices. Some states like Oregon would be handicapped due to 2-year registrations.

Re-sitting a test every 6 or 8 years doesn't sound unreasonable to me. You could do it online. Maybe build an app or something.
I was thinking about less than a full scale test, something like 5 multiple choice question along the lines of "what FYA means - (1)protected turn, (2)permissive turn, (3)change of signal, (4)severe weather alert" - just to make sure leaflet is read and understood.
Doing such test either online or on a form at DMV is not a huge burden. Although permit test in NY is pretty much a joke anyway - at least it was when I was taking it. My favorite question was what to do if you have a green light, but a cop shows you to stop where you are. One of choices was "run  over that person so that traffic may flow normally"...
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jakeroot

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2017, 09:42:35 PM »

My favorite [NYS driver's permit] question was what to do if you have a green light, but a cop shows you to stop where you are. One of choices was "run  over that person so that traffic may flow normally"...

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vdeane

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2017, 12:51:09 PM »

I remember one question on that test where the answer was contained in the following question.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2017, 01:24:13 PM »

I agree with the idea of a leaflet that should come in the mail with your registration renewal.  I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.

Every 2 years?  Around here, a driver's licence is good for 8!  Not sure how vehicle registration got mixed into the conversation.

When you get new tabs, included would be a leaflet that covers any new traffic control devices. Some states like Oregon would be handicapped due to 2-year registrations.

Re-sitting a test every 6 or 8 years doesn't sound unreasonable to me. You could do it online. Maybe build an app or something.
I was thinking about less than a full scale test, something like 5 multiple choice question along the lines of "what FYA means - (1)protected turn, (2)permissive turn, (3)change of signal, (4)severe weather alert" - just to make sure leaflet is read and understood.
Doing such test either online or on a form at DMV is not a huge burden. Although permit test in NY is pretty much a joke anyway - at least it was when I was taking it. My favorite question was what to do if you have a green light, but a cop shows you to stop where you are. One of choices was "run  over that person so that traffic may flow normally"...

Let's just say someone actually believe that and chose it.  If it's a 50 question test and that's the only answer they got wrong, they passed with a 98% score.

The next day, they encounter a cop stopping traffic at a green light.  The guy hits the cop.  The guy is now in jail.

Personally, they should require a 100% passing rate on a test to get a license.  If you miss "What is one drink considered" and you don't drink, it's probably not going to harm you in life.  If you miss "What do you do when you see a red 8 sided sign with the letters STOP in it", and pull out of the parking lot failing to stop because you truly didn't know what that sign meant, it could be disastrous.

But in today's tests, missing just either one out of 50 means you still pass, although one is way more important than the other.
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kalvado

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2017, 02:15:24 PM »

But in today's tests, missing just either one out of 50 means you still pass, although one is way more important than the other.
Life is not perfect. How do you call the last person on medical college graduates list? Right, "doctor".

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Scott5114

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2017, 06:15:44 AM »

I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.

Oklahoma divides the safety and tax responsibilities, and it makes for a far smoother experience than most states.  Turns out the UNIX method of "do one thing, and one thing well" works for government agencies as well.  Go to the Department of Public Safety for your test, and the Tag Agent to pay for the card.  There's very rarely a line for either one.  I took my Oklahoma driver's test (they retest everyone from a state with significantly different laws, and I was turning in an Oregon license) in a single lunch hour and paid to get my license changed from the free instate license DPS gives you over to the card that can also be used as an ID and to drive in other states after work and still made it home before the end of rush hour.

The idea of tag agencies is the one time that Oklahoma's state government stumbled ass-backwards into something that works really well.

For those who don't live in pan-shaped states, tag agencies are private businesses that act as middlemen to the Oklahoma DPS. While I wouldn't advocate for the privatization of most chunks of the government, it's fantastic for the run-of-the-mill car registration stuff that 99% of people need to do at some point. They handle license renewals, tag renewals and issuing, voter registration, and so forth.

Because they're businesses, they sprout up wherever there's a healthy number of customers and someone willing to run them. You can find three of them in Norman alone, for example, and there's usually one in any decent-sized small town. That means that the wait time at them is normally non-existent. Most of them offer other convenient services as well, like notarization. They're also impervious to the political shenanigans that some states are accused of (closing or relocating them to make members of certain communities less likely to be able to get ID, etc.). You can't just eliminate a tag agency with the stroke of a pen (although I assume there's some method of closing an agency for cause).

It's one of the few ideas we have that other states should really give thought to copying.
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roadguy2

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2017, 09:50:48 AM »

My favorite [NYS driver's permit] question was what to do if you have a green light, but a cop shows you to stop where you are. One of choices was "run  over that person so that traffic may flow normally"...



The UT permit test was like that. I know one question was "How many sides does a stop sign have?" The multiple choice options were 4, 6, and 8.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 07:44:35 PM by roadguy2 »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2017, 10:08:12 AM »

But in today's tests, missing just either one out of 50 means you still pass, although one is way more important than the other.
Life is not perfect. How do you call the last person on medical college graduates list? Right, "doctor".

Correct.  But if you're looking for a doctor that could potentially save your life, that would be the one you'll like to stay away from.  Like when you need emergency surgery because someone didn't understand what the red light meant at a traffic light.
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Brandon

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2017, 10:43:42 AM »

But in today's tests, missing just either one out of 50 means you still pass, although one is way more important than the other.
Life is not perfect. How do you call the last person on medical college graduates list? Right, "doctor".

Correct.  But if you're looking for a doctor that could potentially save your life, that would be the one you'll like to stay away from.  Like when you need emergency surgery because someone didn't understand what the red light meant at a traffic light.

Maybe, maybe not.  Book learning and testing well does not necessarily equate to real world performance.  Someone can test very badly yet perform extremely well.
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kalvado

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #92 on: August 15, 2017, 10:58:33 AM »

But in today's tests, missing just either one out of 50 means you still pass, although one is way more important than the other.
Life is not perfect. How do you call the last person on medical college graduates list? Right, "doctor".

Correct.  But if you're looking for a doctor that could potentially save your life, that would be the one you'll like to stay away from.  Like when you need emergency surgery because someone didn't understand what the red light meant at a traffic light.
Realistically, how many important traffic law provisions are not common sense? Until you grew up somewhere in jungle, by the age of 12 you probably know the meaning of green and red. There are really few things you need to remember - passing school bus, parking near hydrant... Turn on red and entering roundabout need to be explained once and for all, it is not about people not knowing it. I bet most traffic violations are just ignoring the "unimportant" law (such as speed limit), not failure to understand that running over a person is a very very bad idea - except some really extreme situations.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2017, 12:46:51 PM »

I wouldn't require good drivers to take the test every 2 years as it would overwhelm the DMV - the lines are long enough as it is.

Oklahoma divides the safety and tax responsibilities, and it makes for a far smoother experience than most states.  Turns out the UNIX method of "do one thing, and one thing well" works for government agencies as well.  Go to the Department of Public Safety for your test, and the Tag Agent to pay for the card.  There's very rarely a line for either one.  I took my Oklahoma driver's test (they retest everyone from a state with significantly different laws, and I was turning in an Oregon license) in a single lunch hour and paid to get my license changed from the free instate license DPS gives you over to the card that can also be used as an ID and to drive in other states after work and still made it home before the end of rush hour.

For those who don't live in pan-shaped states, tag agencies are private businesses that act as middlemen to the Oklahoma DPS. While I wouldn't advocate for the privatization of most chunks of the government, it's fantastic for the run-of-the-mill car registration stuff that 99% of people need to do at some point. They handle license renewals, tag renewals and issuing, voter registration, and so forth.

They don't act as a middleman to the DPS.  It's just not the DPS's authority to collect fees.  They're a middleman to the Oklahoma Tax Commission, an entirely different agency.  Why it's privatized, I don't understand, considering that any money you give them goes to the Tax Commission directly (cash drops, credit cards, and checks, which have to be made out to the OTC), and then the OTC pays the private agency you went to.  Seems like it'd be a lot less hassle for the state to collect it's own taxes, so it could be made more efficient if the state ran the tag agents.

The tag agents don't just deal with license plates, but with everything that requires a tax stamp, plus thanks to motor voter, incidentally can handle your voter registration.  You go to a tag agent if you want to go fishing, hunting, sell or distribute certain crops, etc.

Because they're businesses, they sprout up wherever there's a healthy number of customers and someone willing to run them. You can find three of them in Norman alone, for example, and there's usually one in any decent-sized small town. That means that the wait time at them is normally non-existent. Most of them offer other convenient services as well, like notarization. They're also impervious to the political shenanigans that some states are accused of (closing or relocating them to make members of certain communities less likely to be able to get ID, etc.).

Well, except that anyone living in No Man's Land has to come downstate to get to a tag agent, even though they have DPS offices in the NML.  Which is not an inconsequential distance.  A lack of state services has, since the Dust Bowl, been a source of great resentment and why the Communist Party had such a strong hold on that area prior to McCarthyism.
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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #94 on: August 15, 2017, 08:27:27 PM »

Realistically, how many important traffic law provisions are not common sense? Until you grew up somewhere in jungle, by the age of 12 you probably know the meaning of green and red. There are really few things you need to remember - passing school bus, parking near hydrant... Turn on red and entering roundabout need to be explained once and for all, it is not about people not knowing it. I bet most traffic violations are just ignoring the "unimportant" law (such as speed limit), not failure to understand that running over a person is a very very bad idea - except some really extreme situations.

If the intended behavior of a motorist is anything other than straightforward, it is a failure of roadway engineers and affiliates.  If it takes more than a couple sentences to describe to a motorist how they're supposed to navigate a traffic pattern, then the traffic pattern should not be implemented.  It's a safety issue, and whoever installed the convoluted piece of infrastructure should be deemed negligent.  You have to design everything so that even an idiot can easily understand it.  This is why road agencies are so slow to change, though--if the motoring public isn't familiar with a certain traffic design element, it's not worth subjecting them to the learning curve if it costs human lives.  Though if a new design element is entirely safer than the traditional alternative, maybe the introduction of a new element would be worth it.  Whether or not it's worth it--that's where the gray areas come from, giving way to a lot of arguments on this forum.  Some of these arguments are nice to see, though, when the participants are cool people  :cool:
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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2017, 10:24:49 PM »

Realistically, how many important traffic law provisions are not common sense? Until you grew up somewhere in jungle, by the age of 12 you probably know the meaning of green and red. There are really few things you need to remember - passing school bus, parking near hydrant... Turn on red and entering roundabout need to be explained once and for all, it is not about people not knowing it.

There's common sense and then there's having the laws that vary state by state.  Take turning on red: it varies in some states based on which side of the road the turn is on, and whether the red is an arrow or circular indication.  With school buses, there's a lot of varying on when opposing traffic must stop.  Then there are the real odd ones such as Wisconsin where the school bus can unload without always requiring traffic to stop, even if traffic is traveling in the same direction as the bus.
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Re: The Future of Flashing yellow arrows signals
« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2017, 06:30:05 AM »

Realistically, how many important traffic law provisions are not common sense? Until you grew up somewhere in jungle, by the age of 12 you probably know the meaning of green and red. There are really few things you need to remember - passing school bus, parking near hydrant... Turn on red and entering roundabout need to be explained once and for all, it is not about people not knowing it.

There's common sense and then there's having the laws that vary state by state.  Take turning on red: it varies in some states based on which side of the road the turn is on, and whether the red is an arrow or circular indication.  With school buses, there's a lot of varying on when opposing traffic must stop.  Then there are the real odd ones such as Wisconsin where the school bus can unload without always requiring traffic to stop, even if traffic is traveling in the same direction as the bus.

More and more good arguments for nationalized uniform traffic laws despite federalism.
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