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Author Topic: Triangular Signals  (Read 1429 times)

bzakharin

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2017, 01:15:38 PM »

This is how NJ (or the county, I guess) does it where the Patriot's Path hiking trail crosses County Route 510, a rural highway with no other pedestrians.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.788778,-74.5462549,3a,75y,84.45h,86.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZduVvNreIofqVl8KMUTyOA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
No traffic light, just flashing yellow lights that start flashing when the hiker hits the button. I guess they rely on the fact that it's a state law to stop for pedestrians without actually invoking it.
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jakeroot

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2017, 01:51:11 PM »

HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.

Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm

I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.

When you say "stop on the flashing yellow beacon", do you mean stop, when it's flashing and there's pedestrians, or the entire time it's flashing yellow, regardless if there's pedestrians? If the former, that's totally normal (and the law, judging by the flexible bollard in the second link.). But if the latter, that is indeed some BS.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 01:55:38 PM by jakeroot »
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2017, 01:59:52 PM »

HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.

Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm

I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.

It's not a MUTCD violation for existing installs; the yellow lights just indicate that there's a pedestrian intending to cross.  Whether or not your state requires you to stop in such a situation may vary, but it is extremely common for states to require you to stop for even unmarked crosswalks if someone is about to cross until they clear your lane, or your lane plus the next lane.

They are a violation for new installs because the company that makes those systems has tried to enforce patents against other manufacturers using the same design, so approval for them was rescinded.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2017, 02:16:58 PM »

HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.

Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm

I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.

At least in my neck of the woods, it's not a violation.  You're required to stop in Oklahoma, whether or not there's yellow flashing beacons present, for pedestrians intending to cross.  We have a couple ways of dealing with higher traffic locations, though, like these in downtown Jenks (which, IMO, doesn't even warrant a centerline given the high pedestrian volume, even if it's the main road through town).

https://goo.gl/maps/QF6cjw9MGBp

Tulsa has the beacons, but I doubt any new installations will be installed because of the aforementioned patent situation.

https://goo.gl/maps/H7m5U83UkYS2  (this zebra crossing and the next one down are both amber beacon crosswalks).


When you say "stop on the flashing yellow beacon", do you mean stop, when it's flashing and there's pedestrians, or the entire time it's flashing yellow, regardless if there's pedestrians? If the former, that's totally normal (and the law, judging by the flexible bollard in the second link.). But if the latter, that is indeed some BS.
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Brandon

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2017, 02:49:06 PM »

HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.

Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm

I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.

When you say "stop on the flashing yellow beacon", do you mean stop, when it's flashing and there's pedestrians, or the entire time it's flashing yellow, regardless if there's pedestrians? If the former, that's totally normal (and the law, judging by the flexible bollard in the second link.). But if the latter, that is indeed some BS.

They're trying to get the latter put in the Rules of the Road.
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jakeroot

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2017, 07:17:19 PM »

HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.

Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm

I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.

When you say "stop on the flashing yellow beacon", do you mean stop, when it's flashing and there's pedestrians, or the entire time it's flashing yellow, regardless if there's pedestrians? If the former, that's totally normal (and the law, judging by the flexible bollard in the second link.). But if the latter, that is indeed some BS.

They're trying to get the latter put in the Rules of the Road.

What the fuck. Are they retarded?

Here's a tip, Illinois. If you want traffic to stop, and remain stopped for the entire crossing phase, put in a traffic light. You know, the thing we've been using to stop traffic for 100+ years.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2017, 11:11:22 PM »

HAWKs are a far better idea than what Illinois is trying (in severe MUTCD violation) to use for crosswalks.

Here's what Illinois is trying to use:
https://goo.gl/maps/W3tcpAZmPY12
https://goo.gl/maps/R8MtGgRyTqm

I say severe MUTCD violation as the Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) is trying to get people to stop on the flashing yellow beacon for pedestrians.

When you say "stop on the flashing yellow beacon", do you mean stop, when it's flashing and there's pedestrians, or the entire time it's flashing yellow, regardless if there's pedestrians? If the former, that's totally normal (and the law, judging by the flexible bollard in the second link.). But if the latter, that is indeed some BS.

They're trying to get the latter put in the Rules of the Road.

Yeah, good luck with that, what with allowing drivers from almost all other countries and all other states, where screaming through a flashing yellow at speeds north of 100km/h is a thing.
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Pete from Boston

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Triangular Signals
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2017, 01:58:01 PM »

Well, I noticed today that a brand-new HAWK, intended to provide a protected route for a busy bike thoroughfare in the middle of Arlington, Mass., has been replace after a few months by a full light.  I wonder if the confusion was too much for it to be effective.  At others around here, I am super careful crossing because there seems to be a lower compliance rate than at regular lights.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 02:16:43 PM by Pete from Boston »
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US71

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2017, 07:49:14 PM »

Well, I noticed today that a brand-new HAWK, intended to provide a protected route for a busy bike thoroughfare in the middle of Arlington, Mass., has been replace after a few months by a full light.  I wonder if the confusion was too much for it to be effective.  At others around here, I am super careful crossing because there seems to be a lower compliance rate than at regular lights.

I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights. It looks to me like they went with an aesthetically pleasing design rather one that would get people's attention.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2017, 08:41:57 PM »

Well, I noticed today that a brand-new HAWK, intended to provide a protected route for a busy bike thoroughfare in the middle of Arlington, Mass., has been replace after a few months by a full light.  I wonder if the confusion was too much for it to be effective.  At others around here, I am super careful crossing because there seems to be a lower compliance rate than at regular lights.

I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights. It looks to me like they went with an aesthetically pleasing design rather one that would get people's attention.

I'd be curious to see what the signal looks like in a photosphere as it stands now.
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jakeroot

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2017, 08:51:51 PM »

I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights

What do you mean by "bar light"?
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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2017, 09:03:10 PM »

I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights

What do you mean by "bar light"?

https://goo.gl/maps/Ua2K8ZkSXk32
 
There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.
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jakeroot

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2017, 09:43:33 PM »

I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights

What do you mean by "bar light"?

https://goo.gl/maps/Ua2K8ZkSXk32
 
There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.

Oh. RRFB: Rapid Rectangular Flashing Beacon. They have taken off in my area. In fact, I can't think of any standard flashing yellow orbs installed (except for school zone and other warning signs) in recent memory. All crosswalk lights have been RRFBs. They were part of an MUTCD interim approval, but I think they were implemented into the manual.
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Baloo Uriza

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2017, 10:10:13 PM »

I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights

What do you mean by "bar light"?

https://goo.gl/maps/Ua2K8ZkSXk32
 
There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.

Oh. RRFB: Rapid Rectangular Flashing Beacon. They have taken off in my area. In fact, I can't think of any standard flashing yellow orbs installed (except for school zone and other warning signs) in recent memory. All crosswalk lights have been RRFBs. They were part of an MUTCD interim approval, but I think they were implemented into the manual.

I would expect that to change with time.
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jakeroot

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2017, 10:33:01 PM »

I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights

What do you mean by "bar light"?

https://goo.gl/maps/Ua2K8ZkSXk32
 
There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.

Oh. RRFB: Rapid Rectangular Flashing Beacon. They have taken off in my area. In fact, I can't think of any standard flashing yellow orbs installed (except for school zone and other warning signs) in recent memory. All crosswalk lights have been RRFBs. They were part of an MUTCD interim approval, but I think they were implemented into the manual.

I would expect that to change with time.

Nothing looks like it will change. It's just that full implementation (something that apparently hasn't happened) won't happen until the patent issue is sorted. Many agencies appear to be rather enthusiastic about the RRFB, so I would expect the issue to be sorted rather than the RRFB dumped altogether.
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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2017, 02:42:34 AM »

I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights

What do you mean by "bar light"?

https://goo.gl/maps/Ua2K8ZkSXk32
 
There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.

Oh. RRFB: Rapid Rectangular Flashing Beacon. They have taken off in my area. In fact, I can't think of any standard flashing yellow orbs installed (except for school zone and other warning signs) in recent memory. All crosswalk lights have been RRFBs. They were part of an MUTCD interim approval, but I think they were implemented into the manual.

I would expect that to change with time.

Nothing looks like it will change. It's just that full implementation (something that apparently hasn't happened) won't happen until the patent issue is sorted. Many agencies appear to be rather enthusiastic about the RRFB, so I would expect the issue to be sorted rather than the RRFB dumped altogether.
Huntsville was installing their first set when the interim approval was removed, so now it's just a set of ped signs with flashing LEDs along the border that activate when someone pushes the button. The only HAWK signal is still the one on UAH, I guess they didn't work as well as they had hoped. Decatur, AL and Florence, AL have a few though.
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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2017, 11:50:20 AM »

I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights

What do you mean by "bar light"?

https://goo.gl/maps/Ua2K8ZkSXk32
 
There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.

Oh. RRFB: Rapid Rectangular Flashing Beacon. They have taken off in my area. In fact, I can't think of any standard flashing yellow orbs installed (except for school zone and other warning signs) in recent memory. All crosswalk lights have been RRFBs. They were part of an MUTCD interim approval, but I think they were implemented into the manual.

I would expect that to change with time.

Nothing looks like it will change. It's just that full implementation (something that apparently hasn't happened) won't happen until the patent issue is sorted. Many agencies appear to be rather enthusiastic about the RRFB, so I would expect the issue to be sorted rather than the RRFB dumped altogether.
Huntsville was installing their first set when the interim approval was removed, so now it's just a set of ped signs with flashing LEDs along the border that activate when someone pushes the button. The only HAWK signal is still the one on UAH, I guess they didn't work as well as they had hoped. Decatur, AL and Florence, AL have a few though.

I'm kind of hoping that the beacon crosswalks (be it RRFB or traditional 1-aspect amber traffic light) end up being eliminated, since they seem like a cheap-out excuse for not installing a pedestrian signal.  Oregon DOT likes installing them on 7 lane wide highways to get to a single bus stop where there's no sidewalk installed, just a bus platform.
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UCFKnights

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2017, 04:34:06 PM »

There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.
Compliance here (I'm in Florida) seems to be great when they're paired with the Stop for Peds in Crosswalk sign. I've seen one HAWK and compliance seemed to be bad and people confused about the signal. The RRFB seems cheaper and to have better compliance around here. If it needs a HAWK because RRFBs don't work, it probably needs to be fully signalized
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plain

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM »

There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2017, 08:35:37 PM »

I'm kind of hoping that the beacon crosswalks (be it RRFB or traditional 1-aspect amber traffic light) end up being eliminated, since they seem like a cheap-out excuse for not installing a pedestrian signal.  Oregon DOT likes installing them on 7 lane wide highways to get to a single bus stop where there's no sidewalk installed, just a bus platform.

To install a full-on pedestrian signal, there needs to be traffic studies to ensure there are an adequate number of pedestrian crossings (or crashes) to meet the signal warrants. If all these were replaced with HAWK or traditional signalization, that would be a ridiculous level of signal proliferation.

The button-activated RRFBs or "LEDs in the border of the sign" or traditional beacon lights are an inexpensive yet effective way to call drivers' attention to a possible pedestrian in the crosswalk and they may need to yield when flashing . Compliance in the Reno/Sparks area is pretty high.


As to that ODOT installation mentioned, NDOT just did something similar along Virginia Street north of UNR in Reno. There are no sidewalks, but there are bus stops that serve several apartment complexes. The speed limit is 45 and the road is dark at night (except for street lights just installed over the crosswalks). As a driver speeding along here at night might not reasonably expect a pedestrian to cross, the RRFBs are a reasonable addition here to help increase safety of crossing pedestrians.
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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2017, 08:55:38 PM »

I'm kind of hoping that the beacon crosswalks (be it RRFB or traditional 1-aspect amber traffic light) end up being eliminated, since they seem like a cheap-out excuse for not installing a pedestrian signal.  Oregon DOT likes installing them on 7 lane wide highways to get to a single bus stop where there's no sidewalk installed, just a bus platform.

To install a full-on pedestrian signal, there needs to be traffic studies to ensure there are an adequate number of pedestrian crossings (or crashes) to meet the signal warrants. If all these were replaced with HAWK or traditional signalization, that would be a ridiculous level of signal proliferation.

And honestly, not one that I would be terribly upset by.  Before RRFB and pedestrian beacon crossings, ODOT favored pedestrian signals where there would normally be a crosswalk on even surprisingly small four-lane roads.  Metro Vancouver, BC has them pretty much everywhere, and you can easily identify these intersections where the major road is signalized and only the pedestrian crosswalk or the bike lanes have signals and everyone else faces a stop sign because the major route faces a flashing green ball signal when they can proceed.

I suspect just about every state signing onto Vision Zero now means that we're going to see this trend again, but more widespread, and I'm not against it.
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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2017, 09:34:17 PM »

There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2017, 10:46:07 PM »

There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).

Well technically you're right in that regard.. Maybe I should've said "getting drivers to be alert for pedestrians about to enter the crosswalk, hopefully they will let them cross" or something idk. My whole point was that I agree with anyone saying the RRFBs and the like are pretty effective and cheaper alternatives to HAWK signals as drivers tend to blow through those too anyway. Really to me HAWK signals are like railroad crossing signals, but retarded.
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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2017, 11:10:20 PM »

There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
Yeah, that can be abused by hoodlums running by and hitting the button without using the crosswalk... glad I'm not in Illinois!
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Re: Triangular Signals
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2017, 01:56:56 AM »

There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
Yeah, that can be abused by hoodlums running by and hitting the button without using the crosswalk... glad I'm not in Illinois!
That's true of any signalized pedestrian crossing, including ones with traditional traffic signals.
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