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Triangular Signals

Started by mrpablue, November 04, 2017, 04:08:17 AM

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Pete from Boston

#25
Well, I noticed today that a brand-new HAWK, intended to provide a protected route for a busy bike thoroughfare in the middle of Arlington, Mass., has been replace after a few months by a full light.  I wonder if the confusion was too much for it to be effective.  At others around here, I am super careful crossing because there seems to be a lower compliance rate than at regular lights.


US71

Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 07, 2017, 01:58:01 PM
Well, I noticed today that a brand-new HAWK, intended to provide a protected route for a busy bike thoroughfare in the middle of Arlington, Mass., has been replace after a few months by a full light.  I wonder if the confusion was too much for it to be effective.  At others around here, I am super careful crossing because there seems to be a lower compliance rate than at regular lights.

I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights. It looks to me like they went with an aesthetically pleasing design rather one that would get people's attention.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

jakeroot

Quote from: US71 on December 07, 2017, 07:49:14 PM
I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights

What do you mean by "bar light"?

US71

Quote from: jakeroot on December 07, 2017, 08:51:51 PM
Quote from: US71 on December 07, 2017, 07:49:14 PM
I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights

What do you mean by "bar light"?

https://goo.gl/maps/Ua2K8ZkSXk32

There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

jakeroot

Quote from: US71 on December 07, 2017, 09:03:10 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 07, 2017, 08:51:51 PM
Quote from: US71 on December 07, 2017, 07:49:14 PM
I've seen numerous complaints already about those bar lights

What do you mean by "bar light"?

https://goo.gl/maps/Ua2K8ZkSXk32

There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.

Oh. RRFB: Rapid Rectangular Flashing Beacon. They have taken off in my area. In fact, I can't think of any standard flashing yellow orbs installed (except for school zone and other warning signs) in recent memory. All crosswalk lights have been RRFBs. They were part of an MUTCD interim approval, but I think they were implemented into the manual.

UCFKnights

Quote from: US71 on December 07, 2017, 09:03:10 PM
There is a flashing light bar under the sign where the lights alternate. Seems to be the latest fad, but drivers don't seem to notice.
Compliance here (I'm in Florida) seems to be great when they're paired with the Stop for Peds in Crosswalk sign. I've seen one HAWK and compliance seemed to be bad and people confused about the signal. The RRFB seems cheaper and to have better compliance around here. If it needs a HAWK because RRFBs don't work, it probably needs to be fully signalized

plain

There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

Newark born, Richmond bred

Brandon

Quote from: plain on December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

plain

Quote from: Brandon on December 09, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
Quote from: plain on December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).

Well technically you're right in that regard.. Maybe I should've said "getting drivers to be alert for pedestrians about to enter the crosswalk, hopefully they will let them cross" or something idk. My whole point was that I agree with anyone saying the RRFBs and the like are pretty effective and cheaper alternatives to HAWK signals as drivers tend to blow through those too anyway. Really to me HAWK signals are like railroad crossing signals, but retarded.
Newark born, Richmond bred

SD Mapman

Quote from: Brandon on December 09, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
Quote from: plain on December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
Yeah, that can be abused by hoodlums running by and hitting the button without using the crosswalk... glad I'm not in Illinois!
The traveler sees what he sees, the tourist sees what he has come to see. - G.K. Chesterton

freebrickproductions

Quote from: SD Mapman on December 09, 2017, 11:10:20 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 09, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
Quote from: plain on December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).
Yeah, that can be abused by hoodlums running by and hitting the button without using the crosswalk... glad I'm not in Illinois!
That's true of any signalized pedestrian crossing, including ones with traditional traffic signals.
It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

(They/Them)

jakeroot

Quote from: SD Mapman on December 09, 2017, 11:10:20 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 09, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
Quote from: plain on December 08, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
There's a couple of crosswalks with the bar lights in Williamsburg, VA. This one is on Richmond Road in front of the local college (William & Mary), taken a few weeks ago. As far as being effective in getting drivers to stop, it seems to work well as I saw only one car blow through it the whole 20+ min I was there

They flash yellow, one should not stop there unless there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Last I heard, yellow was a warning beacon, not to be used for stopping (unlike what the Illinois Secretary of State is trying to do - see above in thread).

Yeah, that can be abused by hoodlums running by and hitting the button without using the crosswalk... glad I'm not in Illinois!

It's not a law in Illinois just yet (nor do I expect it to be at any point).

In my experience, living in a rather "hood" area (Tacoma, in parts), pedestrians don't really give a shit about crosswalks at all. They just go when it's clear. I doubt you'd have many pranksters hitting the button.

freebrickproductions

I've seen a few pedestrian buttons that don't work before. They're very rare, and when I do find them, it's usually just one or two at an entire intersection.
It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

(They/Them)

index

https://goo.gl/tjBmpX

These HAWK signals are in use as emergency signals.
I love my 2010 Ford Explorer.



Counties traveled

jakeroot

Quote from: index on December 16, 2017, 05:10:34 AM
https://goo.gl/tjBmpX

These HAWK signals are in use as emergency signals.

Pretty good use of them, too. Unlike normal emergency signals, HAWKs would allow drivers to proceed almost immediately after the fire truck(s) pull away, since by then, the signals would almost certainly have switched over to the flashing red phase. Not a massive improvement, but it gets drivers moving again quickly, a good thing for a signal that's hardly ever activated.

Of course, cities have to be careful not to overuse them at fire stations, since drivers might become adapted to them being emergency signals, rather than part-time crosswalk signals.

Carmel, Indiana implemented a HAWK signal for an entrance into a roundabout, to prevent one direction from flooding the roundabout:

https://youtu.be/-XoDQvvJ-VU

freebrickproductions

Huntsville tried out HAWK signals at a couple of fire stations. They have since swapped back to normal RYG signals for all stations.

SM-G900V

It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

(They/Them)

roadfro

Quote from: jakeroot on December 16, 2017, 05:38:14 AM
Quote from: index on December 16, 2017, 05:10:34 AM
https://goo.gl/tjBmpX

These HAWK signals are in use as emergency signals.

Pretty good use of them, too. Unlike normal emergency signals, HAWKs would allow drivers to proceed almost immediately after the fire truck(s) pull away, since by then, the signals would almost certainly have switched over to the flashing red phase. Not a massive improvement, but it gets drivers moving again quickly, a good thing for a signal that's hardly ever activated.

Of course, cities have to be careful not to overuse them at fire stations, since drivers might become adapted to them being emergency signals, rather than part-time crosswalk signals.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on December 16, 2017, 05:44:30 PM
Huntsville tried out HAWK signals at a couple of fire stations. They have since swapped back to normal RYG signals for all stations.


It's worth noting that the 2009 MUTCD specifies a difference between a Pedestrian Hybrid Signal ("HAWK") [Sec 4F.02-03] and an Emergency-Vehicle Hybrid Beacon [Sec 4G.04]. The two look the same and function almost identically, except that the Emergency-Vehicle Hybrid Beacon does not contain the steady double-red phase (it goes straight from steady yellow to alternating flashing red).

Note that the 2009 MUTCD still allows for traditional signals to be used at emergency vehicle locations, and that the bottom indication can be green or flashing yellow [Sec 4G.03].
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

jakeroot

^^
Ahh, thanks for pointing that out. I haven't seen a new emergency signal installed in a very long time. The only new-ish one in my area is tied to an actuated signal that automatically changes when the fire truck leaves the station.

As for the Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacon, here's a diagram for those who were interested in how they operate (and need a picture):



I'm still not quite sure how I feel about signals that so closely resemble railway crossing signals, but if they work, then so be it. I do think that Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacons are a better use of the layout than the Pedestrian Hybrid Beacon. I've always wanted unique emergency vehicle signals, for some reason. Maybe painted red like those old emergency vehicle signals in Virginia.

freebrickproductions

I know the wigwags that the UK uses at railroad crossings (which look similar to the HAWK signal and Emergency-Vehicle Hybrid Beacon)  are also used at fire stations, lift bridges, and any other locations where traffic doesn't always need to be stopped but may randomly get stopped for one reason or another, so the idea isn't without precedent.

Also, slightly off topic but IMHO, railroad crossing signals here in the US should have yellow lights that come on before the flashing red lights come on.
It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

(They/Them)

US71

Quote from: freebrickproductions on December 16, 2017, 05:44:30 PM
Huntsville tried out HAWK signals at a couple of fire stations. They have since swapped back to normal RYG signals for all stations.


I mostly see RYG for fire stations or flashing yellow/steady red in some instances.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

UCFKnights

Quote from: jakeroot on December 17, 2017, 06:41:02 PM
^^
Ahh, thanks for pointing that out. I haven't seen a new emergency signal installed in a very long time. The only new-ish one in my area is tied to an actuated signal that automatically changes when the fire truck leaves the station.

As for the Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacon, here's a diagram for those who were interested in how they operate (and need a picture):



I'm still not quite sure how I feel about signals that so closely resemble railway crossing signals, but if they work, then so be it. I do think that Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacons are a better use of the layout than the Pedestrian Hybrid Beacon. I've always wanted unique emergency vehicle signals, for some reason. Maybe painted red like those old emergency vehicle signals in Virginia.
And are you allowed to go on the alternating reds like on the HAWK?

In Orlando I've seen at one emergency signal with red retroreflective tape around it, along with a school signal with fluorescent yellow tape around it, instead of the standard yellow retroreflective tape we usually see around new signal installs. I did like that treatment, subtle but effective.

jakeroot

Quote from: UCFKnights on December 23, 2017, 04:19:06 PM
And are you allowed to go on the alternating reds like on the HAWK?

I would guess so, judging by the optional steady-red phase that operators can include (see note in bottom right).

Quote from: UCFKnights on December 23, 2017, 04:19:06 PM
In Orlando I've seen at one emergency signal with red retroreflective tape around it, along with a school signal with fluorescent yellow tape around it, instead of the standard yellow retroreflective tape we usually see around new signal installs. I did like that treatment, subtle but effective.

If you have a Street View link to that signal with the red retroreflective tape, I'd love to see it. Never heard of such a thing. Seems like an odd decision, since red isn't as reflective as yellow or white (although maybe that's not the point).

UCFKnights

Quote from: jakeroot on December 23, 2017, 11:10:06 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on December 23, 2017, 04:19:06 PM
And are you allowed to go on the alternating reds like on the HAWK?

I would guess so, judging by the optional steady-red phase that operators can include (see note in bottom right).

Quote from: UCFKnights on December 23, 2017, 04:19:06 PM
In Orlando I've seen at one emergency signal with red retroreflective tape around it, along with a school signal with fluorescent yellow tape around it, instead of the standard yellow retroreflective tape we usually see around new signal installs. I did like that treatment, subtle but effective.

If you have a Street View link to that signal with the red retroreflective tape, I'd love to see it. Never heard of such a thing. Seems like an odd decision, since red isn't as reflective as yellow or white (although maybe that's not the point).
I got a little lost due to a road closure right after Hurricane Irma when I saw it, I tried to go back and find it but couldn't. It was somewhere north of Orlando on a 2 lane road.

index

While shopping for signals I ran across what looks to be a HAWK signal with arrows. I've never seen something like that.

https://greenville.craigslist.org/clt/d/rare-traffic-light-signal-two/6446600835.html



I love my 2010 Ford Explorer.



Counties traveled

jakeroot

^^
I wonder if it's missing a signal face? I know quite a few southern states use double red lights at left turns, to emphasize the protected-only nature of the signal. But those all have two signal faces below the double red arrow.



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