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Dead End vs. No Outlet

Started by roadman65, March 13, 2018, 04:18:22 PM

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kphoger

Quote from: bzakharin on January 24, 2019, 10:46:12 AM
I know of one such situation in Baltimore signed with "No thru street", black on white, which, as far as I know, is nonstandard. I know that "No thru traffic" is a prohibition rather than a statement, as in the road an an exit, but you can't use it for that purpose (good luck enforcing that).

White on black rectangle would indicate a regulatory sign, yet there is no regulation to obey in "no thru street."
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.


bzakharin

Quote from: kphoger on January 24, 2019, 02:21:14 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on January 24, 2019, 10:46:12 AM
I know of one such situation in Baltimore signed with "No thru street", black on white, which, as far as I know, is nonstandard. I know that "No thru traffic" is a prohibition rather than a statement, as in the road an an exit, but you can't use it for that purpose (good luck enforcing that).

White on black rectangle would indicate a regulatory sign, yet there is no regulation to obey in "no thru street."
I'm sorry I misremembered. It was black on yellow.

1995hoo

Quote from: riiga on January 22, 2019, 04:36:26 PM
I agree with the definition of No Outlet as a system of roads that are dead ends, while a Dead End is when the road will end without branching. ...

I'll quibble slightly: No Outlet doesn't require that the roads all be dead ends. I live in a neighborhood that has no outlet (for cars), but my street is not a dead end because it connects to other streets at both ends. One of those is a dead end, though.

QuoteAnother related thing, are there any dead ends/no outlets (in the US) where the road continues but only for bikes/pedestrians? Is it still signed Dead End/No Oulet in that case?

My neighborhood is like that. It's signed as "No Outlet."  There is a paved bike/ped path at one end; there are also a couple of dirt paths through the woods.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

kphoger

Quote from: riiga on January 22, 2019, 04:36:26 PM


Forgot to comment on this till now...  I think drivers would catch on to the meaning of this sign pretty easily.  Even if the meaning isn't immediately apparent, a driver would think "something worthy of a big red block on this sign is just down the street, so I guess I'd better slow down."
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

DaBigE

Quote from: kphoger on January 25, 2019, 02:21:22 PM
Quote from: riiga on January 22, 2019, 04:36:26 PM


Forgot to comment on this till now...  I think drivers would catch on to the meaning of this sign pretty easily.  Even if the meaning isn't immediately apparent, a driver would think "something worthy of a big red block on this sign is just down the street, so I guess I'd better slow down."

I see it getting confused for a T-intersection sign (W2-2, rotated). I also wonder if the colorblind would have issues with it, especially after the sun has gotten at it for a while?
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

kphoger

Quote from: riiga on January 22, 2019, 04:36:26 PM
I agree with the definition of No Outlet as a system of roads that are dead ends, while a Dead End is when the road will end without branching

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 24, 2019, 09:33:35 PM
No Outlet doesn’t require that the roads all be dead ends.

I believe this is what 1995hoo means...



In the illustration above, the pink road could have a NO OUTLET sign, even though neither it nor any of the roads it connects to are dead-end streets.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

1995hoo

That's exactly the sort of thing I mean. Here's an example not far from where I live:

https://goo.gl/maps/LDjSWK9NWcE2 (Street View showing the "No Outlet" sign)

https://goo.gl/maps/bfcnTY82gUv (map view–Jesmond, Sandyford, and Horgan are not dead ends)
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Flint1979

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 26, 2019, 10:33:08 AM
That's exactly the sort of thing I mean. Here's an example not far from where I live:

https://goo.gl/maps/LDjSWK9NWcE2 (Street View showing the "No Outlet" sign)

https://goo.gl/maps/bfcnTY82gUv (map view–Jesmond, Sandyford, and Horgan are not dead ends)
Looks like a no outlet to me. Looks like every street back there either dead ends or ends and doesn't have another outlet.

1995hoo

Quote from: Flint1979 on January 26, 2019, 11:00:30 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 26, 2019, 10:33:08 AM
That's exactly the sort of thing I mean. Here's an example not far from where I live:

https://goo.gl/maps/LDjSWK9NWcE2 (Street View showing the "No Outlet" sign)

https://goo.gl/maps/bfcnTY82gUv (map view–Jesmond, Sandyford, and Horgan are not dead ends)
Looks like a no outlet to me. Looks like every street back there either dead ends or ends and doesn't have another outlet.

Right. Now, pan the map up and to the left past that nearby lake. You'll see Lake Village Drive. That also has a "No Outlet" sign near its intersection with Waterfield Road. Yet you can clearly see on the map that Dunwich Way, Thurlton Drive, Wendron Way, Keble Drive, and Cliff Drive are not dead ends. That's the part of riiga's point which which I was disagreeing–riiga said every street had to be a dead end, but I was saying that need not be the case as long as the only (legal) way out by motorized vehicle would be to come back the same way you entered. I understood what riiga was saying to mean that a "No Outlet" sign would be inappropriate for Lake Village Drive (or for Greendale Village Drive in the prior example) because not all the streets are dead ends, but I think both of these are exactly the situation where "No Outlet" is appropriate. (Now, on Lake Village the "No Outlet" sign should not be, and is not, east of Hampton Knoll Drive because you can see how you can get back out to the arterials via a different route if you turn there.)

I may have misunderstood what riiga was trying to say, of course.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

riiga

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 26, 2019, 11:08:17 AM
I may have misunderstood what riiga was trying to say, of course.

Yeah, I didn't mean that every street needed to be an explicit dead end for the No Outlet sign, just that it contains branching streets that lead nowhere (or to each other), as opposed to a Dead End signed street where it's one and only one street. The street layout you describe is one where No Outlet would be appropriate. I apologize if I was unclear. In Swedish there is no such distinction, our only word for it translates as "return street" or "return alley".

Both dead ends and no outlets are signed with this sign here, or the latter version if there is a path allowing bike or pedestrian access at the end (very common in suburbs).

kphoger

Quote from: riiga on January 26, 2019, 02:09:46 PM


I would interpret that sign to mean "Bicylce Red Route," as in one of many colored routes geared for cyclists.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Flint1979

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 26, 2019, 11:08:17 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 26, 2019, 11:00:30 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 26, 2019, 10:33:08 AM
That's exactly the sort of thing I mean. Here's an example not far from where I live:

https://goo.gl/maps/LDjSWK9NWcE2 (Street View showing the "No Outlet" sign)

https://goo.gl/maps/bfcnTY82gUv (map view–Jesmond, Sandyford, and Horgan are not dead ends)
Looks like a no outlet to me. Looks like every street back there either dead ends or ends and doesn't have another outlet.

Right. Now, pan the map up and to the left past that nearby lake. You'll see Lake Village Drive. That also has a "No Outlet" sign near its intersection with Waterfield Road. Yet you can clearly see on the map that Dunwich Way, Thurlton Drive, Wendron Way, Keble Drive, and Cliff Drive are not dead ends. That's the part of riiga's point which which I was disagreeing–riiga said every street had to be a dead end, but I was saying that need not be the case as long as the only (legal) way out by motorized vehicle would be to come back the same way you entered. I understood what riiga was saying to mean that a "No Outlet" sign would be inappropriate for Lake Village Drive (or for Greendale Village Drive in the prior example) because not all the streets are dead ends, but I think both of these are exactly the situation where "No Outlet" is appropriate. (Now, on Lake Village the "No Outlet" sign should not be, and is not, east of Hampton Knoll Drive because you can see how you can get back out to the arterials via a different route if you turn there.)

I may have misunderstood what riiga was trying to say, of course.
I agree with the no outlet signs in both locations. The street you are on doesn't have another outlet so hence the no outlet sign, now if that street dead ends with no other streets branching off of it then it's just a dead end. I haven't really paid attention to how Michigan does it but we have both no outlet signs and dead end signs and there are a few that simply say not a through street.

1995hoo

#62
Quote from: riiga on January 26, 2019, 02:09:46 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 26, 2019, 11:08:17 AM
I may have misunderstood what riiga was trying to say, of course.

Yeah, I didn't mean that every street needed to be an explicit dead end for the No Outlet sign, just that it contains branching streets that lead nowhere (or to each other), as opposed to a Dead End signed street where it's one and only one street. The street layout you describe is one where No Outlet would be appropriate. I apologize if I was unclear. In Swedish there is no such distinction, our only word for it translates as "return street" or "return alley".

Both dead ends and no outlets are signed with this sign here, or the latter version if there is a path allowing bike or pedestrian access at the end (very common in suburbs).


I like that sign on the right. It'd be nice if some version of that could be adapted for use in the USA–or even if an auxiliary plaque could be added below "No Outlet" to say "Except Bikes/Peds" or the symbol equivalents of each. The two examples I linked earlier in the thread are good examples of places where that would be appropriate, especially the second example (Lake Village Drive)–that street has bike lanes and one of the streets that branches off of it at its end then links to a cul-de-sac that itself ends at an asphalt bike/ped path that connects back to the street grid. Cyclists are encouraged to go that way because of a more gentle Hill, lower traffic volumes (due to the "No Outlet"), and theoretically lower speeds (speed limit of 25 mph versus 35, although not surprisingly the 25-mph limit is widely ignored).


Edited to add: BTW, in case it was unclear, we do have "Dead End" signs around here as well as "No Outlet." The link below shows one near where I grew up, and you can see it's appropriate because that street doesn't connect to anything.

https://goo.gl/maps/wBdqaAVwi8D2

Now, what I cannot ever recall seeing is an area with "No Outlet" at its entrance that then has "Dead End" posted on streets further into the no-outlet area. Such may exist, of course; I just can't think of any. I suppose it might make sense if it were a big no-outlet area with a longer dead-end street further back somewhere.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

GaryV

Interesting set of "No Outlet" signs on a subdivision in Warren, MI.  Here's the northern street:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5257267,-83.0680393,3a,75y,295.54h,70.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVZQ7YDFdZR6JlR2TjP16eg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

And the southernmost street:  https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5228085,-83.0680599,3a,75y,249.91h,87.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0wQ6mQDDFA-12MCBj2lKkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

But as you can see on the map, all three streets loop around and connect with each other.  They have an outlet; it's just that the outlet gets you pretty much back to where you started.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5243893,-83.0690466,17z?hl=en

roadfro

Quote from: GaryV on January 27, 2019, 01:45:20 PM
Interesting set of "No Outlet" signs on a subdivision in Warren, MI.  Here's the northern street:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5257267,-83.0680393,3a,75y,295.54h,70.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVZQ7YDFdZR6JlR2TjP16eg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

And the southernmost street:  https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5228085,-83.0680599,3a,75y,249.91h,87.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0wQ6mQDDFA-12MCBj2lKkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

But as you can see on the map, all three streets loop around and connect with each other.  They have an outlet; it's just that the outlet gets you pretty much back to where you started.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5243893,-83.0690466,17z?hl=en

By definition, use of "No Outlet" for these streets is incorrect.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

1995hoo

I agree with roadfro–there are three ways out of there via three different streets, so "No Outlet"  is incorrect, even if from a practical standpoint you pretty much wind up back where you started.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Flint1979

I do have an example here in Saginaw, Michigan where there is a dead end sign posted on Grout Street just south of Arthur Street but Beacon Drive connects to Maple Street past this dead end sign.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3980133,-83.9877301,3a,75y,184.84h,90.83t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sR1n49Z2V6BLD-gVImFQWPA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DR1n49Z2V6BLD-gVImFQWPA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D102.018425%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

The next one is on Maple Street south of Beacon Drive
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3971367,-83.9852628,3a,75y,184.15h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9DsD_Eefvdd-eH5SccLtIQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

The second one leads to Greenpoint Nature Center and then past the nature center it turns into a private road with houses along the Tittabawassee River. Where you see Riverside Blvd. is the dead end of the second image. Salt Street does not go through like Google Maps indicates either.

This is the dead end sign on Salt Street which dead ends at a gate about 1,000 feet or so from the sign. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3988719,-83.9790802,3a,75y,182.37h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sX-en22ArwFGwy3hbguKMEA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Honestly using dead end here except for the one on Grout Street is correct. Perhaps the one on Maple Street could be No Outlet since you can pretty much turn around at Greenpoint but that has a gate on it and is closed after dark. The street actually dead ends without intersecting another street though. I've never ventured back to the houses on the river or anything before it's a dirt road after Greenpoint as well.

Two more examples right next to each other. Euclid is indeed a dead end with no other streets branching off of it or anything and gets a No Outlet sign: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5547941,-83.9161245,3a,75y,200.87h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-JDt40tZk2cSlCaRtwBpCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en while Stony Island Road just dead ends in the same fashion and gets a dead end sign https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5549555,-83.9158863,3a,75y,90.66h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRrF5LdQmliQOjyFOj-EcQw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

signalman


Flint1979

Quote from: signalman on February 05, 2019, 08:05:12 AM
How about both?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8625595,-74.3313637,3a,33.5y,304.61h,83.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-jsDSZkNht2btap3Z_F0qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I found it but was about to ask where's the dead end at. They just put a roadblock up to prevent traffic from using it as a through street. There are some streets on the Detroit/Grosse Pointe border that are like that. That's simply because the areas of Detroit that border the Grosse Pointe's aren't the best of areas.

bzakharin

Quote from: signalman on February 05, 2019, 08:05:12 AM
How about both?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8625595,-74.3313637,3a,33.5y,304.61h,83.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-jsDSZkNht2btap3Z_F0qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Funny, there's still an outlet via parking lot. Doesn't say it's illegal to cut thru, so I'm assuming you could do that. Also, the other severed part of the road, shouldn't even be signed as Maple Ave since it's now just an entrance to a single corporate plaza.

Flint1979

Quote from: bzakharin on February 05, 2019, 11:18:02 AM
Quote from: signalman on February 05, 2019, 08:05:12 AM
How about both?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8625595,-74.3313637,3a,33.5y,304.61h,83.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-jsDSZkNht2btap3Z_F0qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Funny, there's still an outlet via parking lot. Doesn't say it's illegal to cut thru, so I'm assuming you could do that. Also, the other severed part of the road, shouldn't even be signed as Maple Ave since it's now just an entrance to a single corporate plaza.
They also use these two signs at the other end when there are three streets that are an outlet before you get to those two signs posted above.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8598897,-74.3282883,3a,24.8y,26.87h,86.94t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sw7S7wvqtR6CTqPFHYYGUsQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dw7S7wvqtR6CTqPFHYYGUsQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D41.240284%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100

signalman

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 06, 2019, 04:51:03 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on February 05, 2019, 11:18:02 AM
Quote from: signalman on February 05, 2019, 08:05:12 AM
How about both?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8625595,-74.3313637,3a,33.5y,304.61h,83.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-jsDSZkNht2btap3Z_F0qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Funny, there's still an outlet via parking lot. Doesn't say it's illegal to cut thru, so I'm assuming you could do that. Also, the other severed part of the road, shouldn't even be signed as Maple Ave since it's now just an entrance to a single corporate plaza.
They also use these two signs at the other end when there are three streets that are an outlet before you get to those two signs posted above.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8598897,-74.3282883,3a,24.8y,26.87h,86.94t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sw7S7wvqtR6CTqPFHYYGUsQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dw7S7wvqtR6CTqPFHYYGUsQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D41.240284%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100
Each one of the streets entering this development has a No Outlet sign posted.  I'm assuming the Dead End sign that I linked is the oldest with the No Outlet sign added later; possibly in conjunction with the No Outlet signs posted at each street entering from Bloomfield Ave.

mrsman

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 27, 2019, 03:27:15 PM
I agree with roadfro–there are three ways out of there via three different streets, so "No Outlet"  is incorrect, even if from a practical standpoint you pretty much wind up back where you started.

So "dead end" means that the street will end without reaching any other street.

"No outlet" means that the street will branch out to other streets, but all of those streets will eventually lead to dead ends.

But there is no standard appropriate sign to say that a street will lead to other streets but eventually get you back to the road that you are on.  You will not dead end, because you can continue straight, but all you are doing, in essence, is making a big u-turn.

In this area, there are some unique signs that address this situation (to an extent) and they are only put up where warranted:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0334725,-77.0236674,3a,75y,66.95h,75.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shyqRoEYvWQ7fDIwDbnt7uQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Sign reads:

NOTICE (yellow background)

NO ACCESS
TO
ARCOLA
AVENUE

In this case, the streets will lead you somewhere, but not likely where you want to go, so stick to the main routes.

Flint1979

Quote from: mrsman on February 08, 2019, 11:59:48 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 27, 2019, 03:27:15 PM
I agree with roadfro–there are three ways out of there via three different streets, so "No Outlet"  is incorrect, even if from a practical standpoint you pretty much wind up back where you started.

So "dead end" means that the street will end without reaching any other street.

"No outlet" means that the street will branch out to other streets, but all of those streets will eventually lead to dead ends.

But there is no standard appropriate sign to say that a street will lead to other streets but eventually get you back to the road that you are on.  You will not dead end, because you can continue straight, but all you are doing, in essence, is making a big u-turn.

In this area, there are some unique signs that address this situation (to an extent) and they are only put up where warranted:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0334725,-77.0236674,3a,75y,66.95h,75.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shyqRoEYvWQ7fDIwDbnt7uQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Sign reads:

NOTICE (yellow background)

NO ACCESS
TO
ARCOLA
AVENUE

In this case, the streets will lead you somewhere, but not likely where you want to go, so stick to the main routes.
Is there a reason Arcola Avenue is mentioned there? I see where Arcola Avenue is at and where this sign is at doesn't even lead to Arcola Avenue.

MNHighwayMan

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2019, 12:41:09 PM
Is there a reason Arcola Avenue is mentioned there? I see where Arcola Avenue is at and where this sign is at doesn't even lead to Arcola Avenue.

:eyebrow: Isn't that the point of the sign? You can't get to Arcola Avenue by the way marked with the sign.



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