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Author Topic: Erroneous road signs  (Read 1085272 times)

kphoger

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4250 on: November 10, 2017, 04:18:51 PM »

Branson (MO) also has a system of colored routes that are intended to be a network of alternate routes to the always-clogged Strip.  They are shown prominently on tourist maps and signed in the field like this.



Back when I first met my wife in 2003 or so, you could still kind of get around Branson by using side streets.  By now, though, even the tourists have learned the side streets.
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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4251 on: November 10, 2017, 07:20:02 PM »

Cool, but I would give the belts numbers.

Probably couldn't use numbers as these are not state highways.  I don't know if PA recognizes numbered county roads.

This was brought up in another thread, but the concept of “county roads” is almost foreign in Pennsylvania. In many counties, the only county-owned roadways are essentially driveways or access roads on county-owned facilities (county parks, county-owned reservoirs, county prisons, etc.). Allegheny is one of the few counties (perhaps the only one) to have any general purpose streets/roads under county ownership and maintenance.

I think the use of colors is appropriate since the belts traverse a patchwork of state and local roads, some of which are already numbered. I have to wonder how much the colored belt system is actually being utilized, though. I remember seeing one AAA city map for Pittsburgh that had the colored belts highlighted (and explained), but I imagine that most out-of-towners have no idea what the colored belts are and don’t use them. And I assume locals wouldn’t need them for the most part.
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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4252 on: November 11, 2017, 08:25:08 AM »

The best thing Missouri ever did for Branson was make US 65 a fast way to get through that madhouse.
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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4253 on: November 12, 2017, 03:14:14 PM »

U.S. 122 in Middletown, OH:

DSC05224 by Eric Stuve, on Flickr

U.S. 4 in Marion, OH:

DSC05092 by Eric Stuve, on Flickr

DSC05103 by Eric Stuve, on Flickr

bicyclehazard

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4254 on: November 12, 2017, 06:48:02 PM »

I have an email from TDOT that says this sign does not exist. They also assure me non motorized traffic is allowed on all portions of the highway 100. Notice photo has GPS. Highway departments do put up illegal signs that result in false arrests. https://flic.kr/p/Kob6C8
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jakeroot

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4255 on: November 12, 2017, 08:42:19 PM »

I have an email from TDOT that says this sign does not exist. They also assure me non motorized traffic is allowed on all portions of the highway 100. Notice photo has GPS. Highway departments do put up illegal signs that result in false arrests. https://flic.kr/p/Kob6C8

Hmm. I'm used to seeing bicycles allowed on certain freeways in my area, but generally speaking, pedestrians are not allowed on freeways, apart from parallel recreational paths. Of course, I'm not sure whether or not this is a freeway. Looks like it from the photo.
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SectorZ

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4256 on: November 13, 2017, 09:17:42 AM »

I have an email from TDOT that says this sign does not exist. They also assure me non motorized traffic is allowed on all portions of the highway 100. Notice photo has GPS. Highway departments do put up illegal signs that result in false arrests. https://flic.kr/p/Kob6C8

Hmm. I'm used to seeing bicycles allowed on certain freeways in my area, but generally speaking, pedestrians are not allowed on freeways, apart from parallel recreational paths. Of course, I'm not sure whether or not this is a freeway. Looks like it from the photo.

In Andover, MA, where MA 125 and MA 28 junction, the 'ramps' between them have the standard Mass no bikes/peds/horses sign, despite the fact that both roads in question allow such traffic. Always wondered about the legality of it, especially since it's right next to a state police barrack on 125. There is a small street that connects the two without using the ramps in the junction, so maybe that was there polite yet quasi-legal way of asking people to use that road instead.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Andover,+MA/@42.6063512,-71.1310316,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e308597f9a4cf5:0x28f59c5c00d57256!8m2!3d42.6583356!4d-71.1367953

The junction in question. Note Gould Rd to north is the road that cyclists/peds/horses can use.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.606035,-71.1205405,3a,75y,103.43h,88.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFqh_GRMB4p8LLl2fV3-7xg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Streetview of one of the ramps, from MA 125 to MA 28 N/B.
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jakeroot

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4257 on: November 13, 2017, 03:51:00 PM »

My understanding has always been that many traffic laws can be overridden by signs posted by a competent authority. Would these "no pedestrian" signs not count?
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bicyclehazard

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4258 on: November 14, 2017, 08:12:02 PM »

My understanding has always been that many traffic laws can be overridden by signs posted by a competent authority. Would these "no pedestrian" signs not count?
The highway is an ordinary highway with businesses and postal boxes. This is what I mean by highway departments getting too aggressive and banning non motorized traffic from roads they have a legal right to be on. If it has a post office box it is a postal road as defined under the postal clause of the United States Constitution. Road law generally derives it's authority from this clause. Highway departments can not ban horses wagons and pedestrians from such roads. Highway departments can not change the status of such roads without permission of the post master general. Doing so could lead to arrests for interfering with the delivery of the mail. What do you think are the chances any one bothers to do the paper work on this?
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jakeroot

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4259 on: November 14, 2017, 08:58:45 PM »

My understanding has always been that many traffic laws can be overridden by signs posted by a competent authority. Would these "no pedestrian" signs not count?

The highway is an ordinary highway with businesses and postal boxes. This is what I mean by highway departments getting too aggressive and banning non motorized traffic from roads they have a legal right to be on. If it has a post office box it is a postal road as defined under the postal clause of the United States Constitution. Road law generally derives it's authority from this clause. Highway departments can not ban horses wagons and pedestrians from such roads. Highway departments can not change the status of such roads without permission of the post master general. Doing so could lead to arrests for interfering with the delivery of the mail. What do you think are the chances any one bothers to do the paper work on this?

I think you'll have a hard time pulling the "post road" clause in court. As roads grew dramatically in the 20th century, the line between "post road" and everything else blurred substantially, to the point where you could define any stretch of road with a post box as a post road. Freeways don't have post boxes, so I don't think they're bound by the same rules as post roads.

Additionally, I do believe local jurisdictions are allowed to parse sections of roads, in such a way that individual parts can have different rules. Judging by Google Maps, TN-100 between Simmons Road and Mifflin Ave is pretty clearly a freeway. There are no driveways or post boxes abutting the roadway, and the speed limit is 50 (low for a freeway but higher than most roads). Judging by this, the road should not be considered a post road, and therefore should be exempt from the rules that govern post roads.
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lordsutch

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4260 on: November 14, 2017, 09:19:24 PM »

The highway is an ordinary highway with businesses and postal boxes. This is what I mean by highway departments getting too aggressive and banning non motorized traffic from roads they have a legal right to be on. If it has a post office box it is a postal road as defined under the postal clause of the United States Constitution. Road law generally derives it's authority from this clause. Highway departments can not ban horses wagons and pedestrians from such roads. Highway departments can not change the status of such roads without permission of the post master general. Doing so could lead to arrests for interfering with the delivery of the mail. What do you think are the chances any one bothers to do the paper work on this?

The section of the U.S. code you cite in the photo 23 USC 109, paragraph m, states:

Quote
(m)Protection of Nonmotorized Transportation Traffic.—
The Secretary shall not approve any project or take any regulatory action under this title that will result in the severance of an existing major route or have significant adverse impact on the safety for nonmotorized transportation traffic and light motorcycles, unless such project or regulatory action provides for a reasonable alternate route or such a route exists.

TDOT provided a reasonable alternate route when constructing the TN 100 Henderson bypass: the former alignment of TN 100 along Main Street, which remains accessible to pedestrians and other non-motorized traffic. There was never a right of passage along the new alignment before, so the state didn't sever or adversely impact any existing traffic by constructing a limited access facility that bypassed the old road.
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hbelkins

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4261 on: November 15, 2017, 11:40:24 AM »

The U.S. Constitution only gives the federal government the authority to establish post offices and post roads. The Constitution does not establish what constitutes a "post road" nor does it give the postmaster general any authority over highways.

Interstates can be considered post roads because intercity and interstate mail is carried on them. I frequently saw intercity mail trucks on the Mountain Parkway back when it was a Kentucky toll road, and pedestrians and horse-drawn vehicles (and bicycles) are expressly prohibited on that route -- and still are, even now with the tolls removed.
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roadman

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4262 on: November 15, 2017, 12:01:37 PM »

I have an email from TDOT that says this sign does not exist. They also assure me non motorized traffic is allowed on all portions of the highway 100. Notice photo has GPS. Highway departments do put up illegal signs that result in false arrests. https://flic.kr/p/Kob6C8

Hmm. I'm used to seeing bicycles allowed on certain freeways in my area, but generally speaking, pedestrians are not allowed on freeways, apart from parallel recreational paths. Of course, I'm not sure whether or not this is a freeway. Looks like it from the photo.

In Andover, MA, where MA 125 and MA 28 junction, the 'ramps' between them have the standard Mass no bikes/peds/horses sign, despite the fact that both roads in question allow such traffic. Always wondered about the legality of it, especially since it's right next to a state police barrack on 125. There is a small street that connects the two without using the ramps in the junction, so maybe that was there polite yet quasi-legal way of asking people to use that road instead.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Andover,+MA/@42.6063512,-71.1310316,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e308597f9a4cf5:0x28f59c5c00d57256!8m2!3d42.6583356!4d-71.1367953

The junction in question. Note Gould Rd to north is the road that cyclists/peds/horses can use.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.606035,-71.1205405,3a,75y,103.43h,88.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFqh_GRMB4p8LLl2fV3-7xg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Streetview of one of the ramps, from MA 125 to MA 28 N/B.

I'm not so sure I'd want to ride a bicycle on those ramps.  Or any part of Route 125 between Route 114 and I-93 for that matter.
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JasonOfORoads

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4263 on: November 16, 2017, 02:21:22 AM »

Found one last month while out along Willamette Falls Drive/old Oregon 212 in West Linn:



  • It should be Oregon 43, not US-43 -- this ain't Alabama or Tennessee
  • It should say "TO Oregon 43" -- we're not on Oregon 43 yet
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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4264 on: November 16, 2017, 02:56:08 AM »

The U.S. Constitution only gives the federal government the authority to establish post offices and post roads. The Constitution does not establish what constitutes a "post road" nor does it give the postmaster general any authority over highways.

Interstates can be considered post roads because intercity and interstate mail is carried on them. I frequently saw intercity mail trucks on the Mountain Parkway back when it was a Kentucky toll road, and pedestrians and horse-drawn vehicles (and bicycles) are expressly prohibited on that route -- and still are, even now with the tolls removed.

Considering that the states (or lower-level jurisdictions) own and maintain the roads, I'm not so sure the Constitution even applies directly.
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GenExpwy

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4265 on: November 16, 2017, 04:17:13 PM »

The U.S. Constitution only gives the federal government the authority to establish post offices and post roads. The Constitution does not establish what constitutes a "post road" nor does it give the postmaster general any authority over highways.

Interstates can be considered post roads because intercity and interstate mail is carried on them. I frequently saw intercity mail trucks on the Mountain Parkway back when it was a Kentucky toll road, and pedestrians and horse-drawn vehicles (and bicycles) are expressly prohibited on that route -- and still are, even now with the tolls removed.

Perhaps relevant to the Post Road concept: until the 1840s, the Post Office Department only carried mail from one post office to another; there was no local delivery. So when the Constitution was written, and for half a century after, a “post road” would have only meant a road connecting communities large enough to have post offices (there were 75 post offices in 1789).
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bicyclehazard

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4266 on: November 16, 2017, 07:20:53 PM »

The U.S. Constitution only gives the federal government the authority to establish post offices and post roads. The Constitution does not establish what constitutes a "post road" nor does it give the postmaster general any authority over highways.

Interstates can be considered post roads because intercity and interstate mail is carried on them. I frequently saw intercity mail trucks on the Mountain Parkway back when it was a Kentucky toll road, and pedestrians and horse-drawn vehicles (and bicycles) are expressly prohibited on that route -- and still are, even now with the tolls removed.

Perhaps relevant to the Post Road concept: until the 1840s, the Post Office Department only carried mail from one post office to another; there was no local delivery. So when the Constitution was written, and for half a century after, a “post road” would have only meant a road connecting communities large enough to have post offices (there were 75 post offices in 1789).
Correct. Postal roads were designed to prevent the charging of tolls for postal vehicles. Then governments demanded the post office deliver the mail to government buildings. The courts had to get involved and they ruled a postal road is any road a postal worker needs to deliver the mail. There are postal addresses on interstates. These so far as I know are owned by the highway departments. These include rest areas. A postal worker can if he chooses walk to these and deliver the mail. There are rest areas within a few blocks of ordinary highways. A postal worker might choose to walk against traffic to do this rather that drive the long way around. An act of congress also made all railroads postal roads. A postal worker can drive his vehicle on a railroad service road and the railroad police can't stop them. They would generally do this only if a regular toad is blocked.
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freebrickproductions

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4267 on: November 17, 2017, 09:27:29 PM »

They would generally do this only if a regular toad is blocked.
If a regular toad is blocked, I'm pretty sure that the postal worker should see about getting a veterinarian out to the toad. :bigass:
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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4268 on: November 19, 2017, 08:07:29 PM »

US 81 is erroneously signed on I-29 northbound before exit 203. US 81 doesn't become concurrent with I-29 until north of the exit.

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4269 on: November 20, 2017, 12:18:53 AM »

If a regular toad is blocked, I'm pretty sure that the postal worker should see about getting a veterinarian out to the toad. :bigass:

Diagnosis and treatment of constipated toads
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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4270 on: November 27, 2017, 07:44:48 PM »

Here's an example on Grey Road 14 facing south at Grey Road 9 in Southgate, ON. The Highway 6 and 10 shields suggest that turning left would put you on Highway 10 and turning right would put you on Highway 6, but these really should be white-on-green "TO" shields. Judging from the odd numerals (clearview I think?), I'm guessing this is a Grey County installation.

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4271 on: December 04, 2017, 02:15:05 PM »

They would generally do this only if a regular toad is blocked.

If a regular toad is blocked, I'm pretty sure that the postal worker should see about getting a veterinarian out to the toad. :bigass:

Diagnosis and treatment of constipated toads

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4272 on: December 11, 2017, 12:26:38 PM »

This one's not so much an erroneous sign as an erroneous map:

The city of Atlanta recently approved an annexation including the area around Emory University, which the AJC reported on here. But apparently, as a condition of the annexation, the entire region is being moved to Louisiana or Arkansas, according to this map in the article.



That's supposed to be US 23/GA 155. How in the world they came up with 79, I have absolutely no idea.
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adventurernumber1

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Re: Erroneous road signs
« Reply #4273 on: December 12, 2017, 07:09:42 PM »

This one's not so much an erroneous sign as an erroneous map:

The city of Atlanta recently approved an annexation including the area around Emory University, which the AJC reported on here. But apparently, as a condition of the annexation, the entire region is being moved to Louisiana or Arkansas, according to this map in the article.



That's supposed to be US 23/GA 155. How in the world they came up with 79, I have absolutely no idea.

Dadgummit, that's pretty messed up.  :eyebrow:  :crazy:

I don't know how the hell they got "US Highway 79" either. Georgia Highway 79 is way over here (not even close), and I can't find anything else that could possibly explain it.

Very strange.  :hmm:

« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 07:11:55 PM by adventurernumber1 »
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