Kroger to buy Albertsons?

[Rothman]

Woolworth's actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

I distinctly remember thinking how wasteful it could be long term, especially if people only use them once. (Though there was lots of waste there, just scattered around the streets...)

Not sure why someone would use them once in areas where plastic bags are nonexistent.  We have been using ours for years.

I'm talking about there, not here. Beautiful country, but the litter was so much worse than here.

You don't see canvas bags littering the countryside...

[Rothman]

In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Former workers tell me that despite the bins, the bags really never get recycled, either because they get mixed up with the garbage anyway or the recycling center doesn't really recycle them at their point.

[kalvado]

In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Former workers tell me that despite the bins, the bags really never get recycled, either because they get mixed up with the garbage anyway or the recycling center doesn't really recycle them at their point.

Collection benefits may be compacting them to save landfill capacity and making sure bags are not scattered around.
Overall, plastic recycling isn't economically attractive, as far as I understand; and contaminations can quickly cause equipment problems. I imagine receipts would be the plague of shopping bag recycling.

[Dirt Roads]

In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Former workers tell me that despite the bins, the bags really never get recycled, either because they get mixed up with the garbage anyway or the recycling center doesn't really recycle them at their point.

Collection benefits may be compacting them to save landfill capacity and making sure bags are not scattered around.
Overall, plastic recycling isn't economically attractive, as far as I understand; and contaminations can quickly cause equipment problems. I imagine receipts would be the plague of shopping bag recycling.

Interesting point.  When I lived in northwestern Virginia, the local landfill (a joint venture of Frederick County, Clarke County and the City of Winchester) took everything that had a recycling logo (plus some recyclables that didn't).  What amazed me was that they had a dumpster specifically for Styrofoam^TM (and similar foam packing products), which are a type of polystyrene (thus a #6 recyclable).  Even back then, it was a foregone conclusion that packing foam could not be recycled cost effectively.  I never knew for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me that they were going to compact various forms of leftover "recyclables" that were too expensive to recycle and store them in segregated areas of the landfill so that they could be dug up whenever that type of plastic was needed.

There's an article out this week in the EnergyFactor eMag entitled Advanced Recycling: A Different Way to Recycle.  In a nutshell, the main thrust was how chemical processes were going to be used to separate aluminum mylar from plastic wrap packing.  Mega-grocer Ahold Delhaize and artificial turf manufacturer TenCate Grass were partners in the recycling prototype effort.  (Around here, Delhaize affiliate Food Lion is well-known for accepting all types of plastic bags and plastic films as recyclables).  Again, to the point, it wouldn't surprise me that they compacted the various forms of leftover "recyclables" and stored them in segregated areas of the landfill..."  Sounds like they are exploring how to dig this stuff out and try to use it.  When the main ingredient is "free", the rest of the cost of a product is simply a "production cost".

For the record, EnergyFactor eMag is produced by ExxonMobil.  I tend to pull up articles about chemical processes, so I'm guessing that's how I ended getting "tagged" with this article.

[kalvado]

In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Former workers tell me that despite the bins, the bags really never get recycled, either because they get mixed up with the garbage anyway or the recycling center doesn't really recycle them at their point.

Collection benefits may be compacting them to save landfill capacity and making sure bags are not scattered around.
Overall, plastic recycling isn't economically attractive, as far as I understand; and contaminations can quickly cause equipment problems. I imagine receipts would be the plague of shopping bag recycling.

Interesting point.  When I lived in northwestern Virginia, the local landfill (a joint venture of Frederick County, Clarke County and the City of Winchester) took everything that had a recycling logo (plus some recyclables that didn't).  What amazed me was that they had a dumpster specifically for Styrofoam^TM (and similar foam packing products), which are a type of polystyrene (thus a #6 recyclable).  Even back then, it was a foregone conclusion that packing foam could not be recycled cost effectively.  I never knew for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me that they were going to compact various forms of leftover "recyclables" that were too expensive to recycle and store them in segregated areas of the landfill so that they could be dug up whenever that type of plastic was needed.

There's an article out this week in the EnergyFactor eMag entitled Advanced Recycling: A Different Way to Recycle.  In a nutshell, the main thrust was how chemical processes were going to be used to separate aluminum mylar from plastic wrap packing.  Mega-grocer Ahold Delhaize and artificial turf manufacturer TenCate Grass were partners in the recycling prototype effort.  (Around here, Delhaize affiliate Food Lion is well-known for accepting all types of plastic bags and plastic films as recyclables).  Again, to the point, it wouldn't surprise me that they compacted the various forms of leftover "recyclables" and stored them in segregated areas of the landfill..."  Sounds like they are exploring how to dig this stuff out and try to use it.  When the main ingredient is "free", the rest of the cost of a product is simply a "production cost".

For the record, EnergyFactor eMag is produced by ExxonMobil.  I tend to pull up articles about chemical processes, so I'm guessing that's how I ended getting "tagged" with this article.

Since we're on a road forum, it may be worth mentioning that a lot of plastics can go into asphalt as additives. Looks like a simple way to "recycle" a lot of stuff which wouldn't make sense to process otherwise.   
Styrofoam, from my experience, can be very efficiently compacted with a small amount of solvent. It may be a difficult question for EPA, though.
And as far as I understand, it will  disintegrate into fine particles in certain conditions - may be not a bad idea for landfill to facilitate the process.

[skluth]

Saw a video not long ago about a company in So Cal that recycles styrofoam to make those styrofoam-like thin coffee cups, foam plates, and similar products. Don't have a link but the video was not complementary towards the company as the reporter showed the company lobbies the government with "proof" that styrofoam is recyclable but it can only be recycled once into their other products and can't be recycled again.

[bandit957]

There is a company in England that recycles chewed bubble gum into various products such as shoes and coffee mugs.

[JoePCool14]

There is a company in England that recycles chewed bubble gum into various products such as shoes and coffee mugs.

That's the definition of unnecessary. We don't have to reuse or recycle literally everything.

[kphoger]

The point is that you wouldn't need to make as many canvas bags as continuously re-using plastic bags, and one can keep re-growing cotton/paper, which also provides sustainable jobs, though it probably pays worse than working in the average chemical plant.

The point is that manufacturing canvas or paper is much worse for the environment than manufacturing plastic bags.  So yeah, you can keep re-growing cotton or trees, but that just amplifies the damage done to the environment, because it's being re-grown for the purpose of making bags out of it–not to just make the world pretty and green and nice.

[hbelkins]

There's a meme going around these parts that someone picked up a Dollar General bag they found along the roadside before it could sprout into a new DG store.

[kalvado]

The point is that you wouldn't need to make as many canvas bags as continuously re-using plastic bags, and one can keep re-growing cotton/paper, which also provides sustainable jobs, though it probably pays worse than working in the average chemical plant.

The point is that manufacturing canvas or paper is much worse for the environment than manufacturing plastic bags.  So yeah, you can keep re-growing cotton or trees, but that just amplifies the damage done to the environment, because it's being re-grown for the purpose of making bags out of it–not to just make the world pretty and green and nice.

Point is what "worse" actually mean. A real big complain about plastic waste is that it gets scattered and doesn't decay. Manufacturing issues are less pronounced.
While cotton and paper have their distinct problems (such as pesticide and herbicide residue;  deforestation and bleaching byproducts) it's hard to compare those quantitatively. Until, of course, funding agency has some interests. Such interests are not uncommon. Opiates is a relatively recent story...

However if you want to compare - be consistent. One year supply of shopping plastic bags should less damaging than one year of paper bags? OK, that is less paper than one year of  newspaper subscription. Lets ban newspapers, right?     

[kphoger]

However if you want to compare - be consistent. One year supply of shopping plastic bags should less damaging than one year of paper bags? OK, that is less paper than one year of  newspaper subscription. Lets ban newspapers, right?     

I'm not actually in favor of any ban–newspaper, plastic, paper, or canvas.  As I've said, I prefer paper bags over plastic bags, even though I'm aware of the toll their manufacture takes on the environment.  And actually, I usually just use a couple of corrugated cardboard trays that I grabbed from the hopper at Aldi a few years ago, only grabbing a bag or two if I can't fit everything in those.

[kalvado]

However if you want to compare - be consistent. One year supply of shopping plastic bags should less damaging than one year of paper bags? OK, that is less paper than one year of  newspaper subscription. Lets ban newspapers, right?     

I'm not actually in favor of any ban–newspaper, plastic, paper, or canvas.  As I've said, I prefer paper bags over plastic bags, even though I'm aware of the toll their manufacture takes on the environment.  And actually, I usually just use a couple of corrugated cardboard trays that I grabbed from the hopper at Aldi a few years ago, only grabbing a bag or two if I can't fit everything in those.

That "ban" was in no way directed towards you personally, more to National Geographic (or whoever published that?) publishing the argument and collective "governments". Even then, I am pretty sure that there are trigger ban happy people around, and  I don't want to give them any ideas.
This is more of a call for reasoning consistency. There are multiple aspects of things being polluting in different parts of lifecycle. I always thought that runaway plastic is the big problem to address by banning bags. Decomposition (or lack of) in landfill, while discussed a lot, is of "and why exactly is that a problem?" area for me. Resource consumption is certainly a problem - but less than straightforward one when different types,  like cotton vs oil for plastic  vs trees for paper (and bags are likely recycled paper anyway) are considered. 

[kphoger]

I always thought that runaway plastic is the big problem to address by banning bags. Decomposition (or lack of) in landfill, while discussed a lot, is of "and why exactly is that a problem?" area for me.

Indeed, for me as well.  I still have a vivid memory of looking out the bus window somewhere on the south side of Chihuahua City in 2001, and there was a vacant lot the size of a city block completely covered with single-use plastic sacks.  It was one of the ugliest sights I've ever seen, and it has stuck with me.

[Big John]

There was a problem with Walmart bags clogging up drainage systems that they were referred to as Arkansas tumbleweed.

[formulanone]

In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Same here, both our Publixes and Wal-Marts take them. We just round em all up, save about 25-50% for reuse and return the rest.

[Scott5114]

In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Same here, both our Publixes and Wal-Marts take them. We just round em all up, save about 25-50% for reuse and return the rest.

The problem I have is that I forget to take them back so often that I end up amassing a great deal of them.

[Scott5114]

Meanwhile in Oklahoma it's like pulling teeth to NOT get the baggers to sneak plastic bags into your order without asking, even when you've brought your own bags and explicitly asked for paper for anything that doesn't fit. Seriously, I've had them wait for me to turn around so they can put my bananas in a plastic bag for some reason. And with meat, they will just grab a plastic bag and start to put the meat in there without even asking, like there's no possible customer that wouldn't want such a thing. And I feel like a jerk having to get their attention and tell them to knock it off.

Another bag-related annoyance I just encountered today that I would hope people in more civilized areas don't have to deal with–the cashier not taking your bag and moving it to the bagging area, but just leaving it where you sat it, scanning the items and putting them back on the belt they got them from. Because obviously if I want to use my own bag, that means I also want to do the whole bagging process myself. 

[zachary_amaryllis]

I just wish we could get more IGA stores again.

Those trigger memories of of the old Grand Unions my Grand Mother (see what I did there?) and I went to when I was but a shoot. Cigarette butts on the floor, and the chunky old electric-mechanical registers. What's a debit card?

[skluth]

Meanwhile in Oklahoma it's like pulling teeth to NOT get the baggers to sneak plastic bags into your order without asking, even when you've brought your own bags and explicitly asked for paper for anything that doesn't fit. Seriously, I've had them wait for me to turn around so they can put my bananas in a plastic bag for some reason. And with meat, they will just grab a plastic bag and start to put the meat in there without even asking, like there's no possible customer that wouldn't want such a thing. And I feel like a jerk having to get their attention and tell them to knock it off.

Another bag-related annoyance I just encountered today that I would hope people in more civilized areas don't have to deal with–the cashier not taking your bag and moving it to the bagging area, but just leaving it where you sat it, scanning the items and putting them back on the belt they got them from. Because obviously if I want to use my own bag, that means I also want to do the whole bagging process myself. 

One of the grocery stores I used back in St Louis only bagged your groceries if the baggers used their own plastic or paper bags. Occasionally the bagger would still bag my groceries but I usually did it myself. I prefer to bag my own groceries because I got tired of all the damaged goods like squished bread or bruised fruit.

[bulldog1979]

When I worked at Walmart, they collected the bags of plastic bags and hangers and compressed them into bales with layers of cardboard. The result looked like a giant multi-layer Oreo cookie. Those were then picked up for recycling along with the cardboard bales.

[abefroman329]

Meanwhile in Oklahoma it's like pulling teeth to NOT get the baggers to sneak plastic bags into your order without asking, even when you've brought your own bags and explicitly asked for paper for anything that doesn't fit. Seriously, I've had them wait for me to turn around so they can put my bananas in a plastic bag for some reason. And with meat, they will just grab a plastic bag and start to put the meat in there without even asking, like there's no possible customer that wouldn't want such a thing. And I feel like a jerk having to get their attention and tell them to knock it off.

Another bag-related annoyance I just encountered today that I would hope people in more civilized areas don't have to deal with–the cashier not taking your bag and moving it to the bagging area, but just leaving it where you sat it, scanning the items and putting them back on the belt they got them from. Because obviously if I want to use my own bag, that means I also want to do the whole bagging process myself. 

Are you putting your bags on the belt at the beginning of the order, or the end?

[Scott5114]

Meanwhile in Oklahoma it's like pulling teeth to NOT get the baggers to sneak plastic bags into your order without asking, even when you've brought your own bags and explicitly asked for paper for anything that doesn't fit. Seriously, I've had them wait for me to turn around so they can put my bananas in a plastic bag for some reason. And with meat, they will just grab a plastic bag and start to put the meat in there without even asking, like there's no possible customer that wouldn't want such a thing. And I feel like a jerk having to get their attention and tell them to knock it off.

Another bag-related annoyance I just encountered today that I would hope people in more civilized areas don't have to deal with–the cashier not taking your bag and moving it to the bagging area, but just leaving it where you sat it, scanning the items and putting them back on the belt they got them from. Because obviously if I want to use my own bag, that means I also want to do the whole bagging process myself. 

Are you putting your bags on the belt at the beginning of the order, or the end?

At the beginning. Normally, they will grab the bags and move them to the bagging area, then start scanning items and bagging them.

This guy just left the bags on the belt and reached over them to grab my items (2 gallons of milk), then reached back over them to set the milk back down back on the belt behind the bags. It was at Braum's, not a real grocery store, so I assume he just doesn't normally work the grocery section or something like that.

[kphoger]

I prefer to bag my own groceries

Yep, me too.  I used to choose my checkout lane based on who the bagger was, because I wanted a good bagger who actually knew how to pack sacks.  But then I changed strategy, instead choosing the checkout lane with the slowest bagger;  that way, I could jump in and "help out", knowing that only one or two sacks would end up being packed by the bagger.

Now we have self-checkout lanes with full-length conveyor belts, so that's what we do instead.  And I've gone to using nearly 100% reused produce trays–only grabbing a sack if I can't fit everything in the tray.

[bing101]

https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/months-after-not-being-paid-a-former-fred-meyer-employee-is-still-trying-to-get-his-money/

Here is one that can delay the Kroger/Albertsons deal.