I noticed St. Louis has quite an extensive freeway system, especially outside the city proper, in the suburban area.
Some of them are quite oversized... Do they expect a huge increase of traffic?
For instance:
SR-364
AADT: 47,600 - 59,000 (http://www.modot.mo.gov/safety/documents/2007_Traffic_District06.pdf)
10 freaking lanes? Los Angeles has 300,000 AADT for such freeways.. Capacity for 10 lanes is around 250,000...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fc4%2FMO364FromAmiotDrive.JPG%2F800px-MO364FromAmiotDrive.JPG&hash=e973616bcb5bf455cd48b184cf37ec0c2b3f44ca)
I-55
AADT: 107,000 - 125,000 (http://www.modot.mo.gov/safety/documents/2007_Traffic_District06.pdf)
Also 10 lanes... 6 would do pretty nice right now...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2Fxf137p.jpg&hash=81044fafbb59acb14bfb2f2091edbd4c7c784938)
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a decent capacity on urban roads, but it looks like they get carried away a bit here...
Another weird thing I noticed on I-64... This freeway is 6 lanes throughout this image, but somehow, traffic seems to disappear after the St. Louis county line... Weird, since there are no major interchanges or big office parks that are likely to absorb all that traffic. I work with AADT stats everyday, and this drop from 174,000 to 91,000 within a few miles is very strange.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2Fn3t6jr.png&hash=e61806f45b5835a06713eb0ee678952630cf2504)
that's great that they have wide roads....which means when the traffic does come they don't have as many worries.
Maybe the pic was taken during an off-peak time?
In CT we would gladly trade our freeways for St. Louis' freeways. Here there is too much NIMBYism.
St. Louis also uses the design-build model to construct highways faster.
whatever Missouri is using to vanish 100,000 cars - is that available in portable format, so I can install that on my car's front bumper and instantly get rid of any traffic I encounter?
The rightmost lanes on MO 364 usually are auxiliary lanes, though I think it was designed to generally be restriped to 10 through lanes in the future. Right now MO 364 doesn't get that much traffic since it is fairly new and currently bottlenecked by the cloverleaf with I-270. That interchange however will see work start on a two lane NB-WB flyover next year.
I-55 was six lanes between MO 141 and just north of US 50-61-67/Lindbergh Blvd until the mid 1990s when that section was widened to 10 lanes between MO 141 and Butler Hill Rd (Exit 195), 8 plus 2 auxiliary lanes between Butler Hill and I-270/I-255, and 8 plus 8 C-D lanes between I-270/I-255 and US 50-61-67.
I think MoDOT uses slightly different ADT values for determining the number of lanes - one of those things I recall reading years ago but forget the source - with 100,000 being near the upper limit for 8 lanes.
Regarding the ADT weirdness on US 40, I don't believe that 10,000 vehicles leave the highway west of I-170 at McKnight either.
There were many days though I would trade narrower freeways for the unbuilt routes around St. Louis:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=117499567522166489363.00000111c8b66c033b8ea&ll=38.648115,-90.199299&spn=0.061671,0.118618&z=13 (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=117499567522166489363.00000111c8b66c033b8ea&ll=38.648115,-90.199299&spn=0.061671,0.118618&z=13)
Regarding the number of lanes on freeways, I-80 through Omaha is usually eight through lanes plus two auxiliary lanes. The I-80/I-29 overlap in Congested Bluffs will soon be widened to 3x3x3x3:
http://www.iowadot.gov/cbinterstate/segment2.asp (http://www.iowadot.gov/cbinterstate/segment2.asp)
http://www.iowadot.gov/cbinterstate/segment3.asp (http://www.iowadot.gov/cbinterstate/segment3.asp)
About SR-364, I've read that the Sierra Club was a big opponent of this freeway. Maybe MoDOT thought; "if we don't do it good now, we are never gonna be able to widen it in the future".
Quote from: Chris on June 24, 2009, 02:26:44 PM
About SR-364, I've read that the Sierra Club was a big opponent of this freeway. Maybe MoDOT thought; "if we don't do it good now, we are never gonna be able to widen it in the future".
MO 364 is probably the most recent major controversial highway facility to survive cancellation around St. Louis. I'd say the most controversial highway ever except that US 40 had a gap for many years between Brentwood and Skinker due to opposition, I believe I-44 came close to cancellation inside I-270, and even the built part of I-170 was fairly controversial - but some of that came from proposals to use tolls to finish and a dispute between St. Louis County and MoDOT's predecessor agency over which part to complete first.
The main issues with MO 364 were:
1) The selected routing through Creve Couer County Park - although given the park expansion and heavily used trail following MO 364 across the Missouri River that was built as part of the deal, I have to wonder if the routing was really so bad.
2) The urban sprawl issue - although after spending many years in part of St. Louis County and given the crime, poor schools, and earnings tax of St. Louis City, I can't blame people for heading out to the next ring of counties.
3) The large cost - I recall some saying that the given price tag didn't include improvements to the I-270 interchange. There was also controversy about the highway taking funding away from other projects.
The early plans for what evolved into MO 370 had the highway - then an expressway instead of a freeway - continuing south to recross the Missouri River close to where US 40 descends into the Chesterfield Valley. Today I think the next new Missouri River bridges in the area will be:
1) A new bridge for EB US 40, with the existing EB bridge for WB US 40, and the current WB bridge for the Chesterfield Airport Road entrance and possibly a bike lane.
2) A new bridge or two for the "Corridors of the Future" Truck lanes, mostly likely involving two new bridge for MO 370 - I don't see making 370 one general purpose lane or taking lanes away from I-70 going over too well, given the thoughts over converting a general purpose lane or two to HOV lanes.
3) A replacement for one of the Blanchette/I-70 bridges.
Looks like Forest Park is a major landmark then :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:
Quote from: WISFreeways on September 20, 2009, 03:27:55 PM
Looks like Forest Park is a major landmark then :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:
What about Interstate 55 :clap:
Came across a map today in a 1967 St. Louis County report that showed the Page Avenue Extension extended down to the I-44/MO 109 interchange in Eureka (the old one at the Central overpass, not the current one today where MO 109 goes under I-44).
Interestingly, this map showed the Inner Belt splitting near the north end, with one half being the currently built alignment and the other route looping over along an abandoned railroad grade to end at Riverview Blvd next to the Mississippi. The southern extension of the Inner Belt was also shown crossing I-44 near the Edgar Road overpass.
I'm really disappointed at the job MoDOT did rebuilding I-70 from I-170 to near downtown. The corridor needed a few more revisions, and I really wonder if keeping the reversible lanes was a good idea. There should also be more advanced signage letting out of towners know about the availability of the express lanes, and the express lanes really need to be posted higher than 55 for having one entrance/exit for their length.
Came across a couple more dead freeway proposals for the St. Louis area; source article is "Tax Hike Would Fuel Bridge, City Parkway - Fund Boost Would Help Other Area Projects" St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 1-10-1992, accessed via library database. Bridge mentioned in title is what became the new Mississippi bridge planned for I-70.
* MO 79, freeway from Rte M to the relocated MO 47 Outer Outer Outer Belt freeway. Route 79 was also supposed to be an expressway to the Lincoln County line.
* MO 100, freeway from I-44 to Washington (currently being widened to four lanes divided)
There's also mention of adding lanes on I-44 from the Crawford County line to a MO 100 interchange, and on I-70 from the Warren County line to US 61.
As of today, the MO 21/Blood Alley replacement freeway in Jefferson County has 2/10 mileposts with the route shield. Surprising that this route has them yet MO 370 does not.
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 21, 2009, 07:11:40 PM
I think MoDOT uses slightly different ADT values for determining the number of lanes - one of those things I recall reading years ago but forget the source - with 100,000 being near the upper limit for 8 lanes.
Can someone please provide ODOT with this "revised formula"? :-))
I know a freeway that has 120,000 on 4 lanes.
100,000 on 8 lanes is pretty generous. That would mean almost no congestion. I also know a freeway that has 200,000 on 8 lanes.
There are some rules of the thumb;
between 2,000 and 2,400 is the capacity of a lane per hour. (not in optimal situations, where it's closer to 1,500). Count the lanes, multiply it by ~2,200 and then multiply it by 10 (or 12 in very urban areas), and bam, you've got yourself the upper limit.
For instance a 4-lane freeway = 4*2200*10 = 88,000 AADT. These are not congestion-free values though. I think ideally, 70,000 is the upper limit for 4 lanes.
The I-55 to I-70 connector under the west end of the PSB was closed today due to concrete falling from one of the bridges in the interchange:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/story/C64FF727F21D98D1862576BC0079F253?OpenDocument (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/story/C64FF727F21D98D1862576BC0079F253?OpenDocument)
Found a study with projected 2030 volumes for roads in St. Charles County (Project volume tables start on Page 144/145):
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/trans/StChasTransPlan/StChasTransPlan2030.pdf (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/trans/StChasTransPlan/StChasTransPlan2030.pdf)
Note that these projections are based on MO 364 not being completed out to I-64.
EDIT: And now found one with traffic projections for Jefferson County (Projections on Page 122/124):
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/trans/jeffcotransplan-feb2008.pdf (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/trans/jeffcotransplan-feb2008.pdf)
Interesting that I-55 will probably need to be widened again in the northern part of the county.
The design of the I-270/Page Avenue interchange has changed. MoDOT press release:
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/news_and_information/District6News.shtml?action=displaySSI&newsId=50621 (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/news_and_information/District6News.shtml?action=displaySSI&newsId=50621)
Blog entry on the change:
http://revive755.blogspot.com/2010/03/design-changes-for-i-270-interchange.html (http://revive755.blogspot.com/2010/03/design-changes-for-i-270-interchange.html)
A MoDOT employee stated in a Post-Dispatch column today that MoDOT will not seek interstate designations for MO 370 and MO 364:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/columnists.nsf/alongfortheride/story/3D23411649D7CFBD862576E7000BBC0C?OpenDocument (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/columnists.nsf/alongfortheride/story/3D23411649D7CFBD862576E7000BBC0C?OpenDocument)
IMHO, MoDOT should make MO 370 into an interstate, or at least sign it better as a freeway grade bypass of I-70. Right now the only thing indicating anything special about MO 370 on EB I-70 is the number of lanes for the exit:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.798312,-90.597275&spn=0,359.972534&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.798311,-90.597159&panoid=_AnKYUI9SeQMQbVR_fiTMQ&cbp=12,82.11,,0,3.38 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.798312,-90.597275&spn=0,359.972534&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.798311,-90.597159&panoid=_AnKYUI9SeQMQbVR_fiTMQ&cbp=12,82.11,,0,3.38)
MO 370 really should have a control city of Indianapolis there.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 15, 2010, 12:47:54 PM
MO 370 really should have a control city of Indianapolis there.
From the location, that would make sense. This seems like a strange freeway to me...is this the "St Charles Bypass"? Of course, it seems that St Louis has enough freeway lanes to go around for everyone. MoDOT has done a great job in getting capacity for this city.
^ Except for I-70 near downtown St. Louis; it has been backing up regularly in the afternoon from the end of the express lanes back to around or beyond the McKinley Bridge, even before the afternoon rush hour. Yes, having the express lanes closed probably doesn't help, but they would normally be set for outbound (WB) traffic in the afternoon. The new river bridge for I-70 should take care of this congestion, in theory.
As for MO 370, it is was apparently intended more as a "Blanchette Bridge Bypass," as it seems to first appear in transportation plans for St. Louis after the realization sunk in that another bridge besides Page Avenue's (which appears to have been actually planned first, but constructed later) was needed to relieve I-70 (and this was when Page Avenue was to connect to I-70 at the MO 79 interchange). Problem with MO 370 is it doesn't go far enough west - it needed to at least make it west to MO 79, instead of ending at a point where all E-W traffic must funnel back onto I-70 (there's few E-W roads north of I-70 until west of MO 79, between MO 79 and MO 370 there's really only I-70's north outer road and Salt River Road, which pass through a congested (I think) intersection with Mid Rivers Mall Drive.
Quote from: shoptb1 on January 04, 2010, 06:51:24 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 21, 2009, 07:11:40 PM
I think MoDOT uses slightly different ADT values for determining the number of lanes - one of those things I recall reading years ago but forget the source - with 100,000 being near the upper limit for 8 lanes.
Can someone please provide ODOT with this "revised formula"? :-))
The
St. Louis Area Transportation Study: Streets Highways & Transit by IDOT, the Missouri State Highway Commission, and East-West Gateway (the area MPO) in 1971 has a table on Page 23 with the general capacity in "vehicles per lane per day" for a freeway at 12,000. Expressway capacity in the table is 9,000 vplpd. I'm pretty sure the numbers were revised upwards in later years.
The study also marks the demise of an a freeway or expressway generally near the Kingshighway corridor in St. Louis that would connect I-55 near the Loughboro interchange to I-70 around Kingshighway; possibly a eparate route was to extend north to Alton along the US 67 (now mostly MO 367) corridor. The Kinghshighway route was to be replaced with a high design mass transit facility.
New plan dooms WB Daniel Boone Bridge (Missouri River crossing) on I-64:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stcharles/story/36D2DAEEB1D6729C8625771A00035A09?OpenDocument (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stcharles/story/36D2DAEEB1D6729C8625771A00035A09?OpenDocument)
One of the cost cutting measures for the I-64 rebuild is showing signs of failure already. At the I-64 interchange with Brentwood, traffic exiting eastbound I-64 and going north on Brentwood Boulevard was getting blocked by the light on Brentwood for westbound I-64's outer road, and backing up into the intersection. This was causing problems for traffic on southbound Brentwood. The original SPUI design for this interchange would not have had this problem.
Google map of the interchange for reference:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.62977,-90.345442&spn=0.002913,0.006866&z=18 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.62977,-90.345442&spn=0.002913,0.006866&z=18)
Also, the loop ramp from southbound I-270 to eastbound I-44 has returned to a single lane. As of today there are now white posts separating the exit only lane from the rest of the mainlanes.
You mean another project Pete Rahn stuck his nose in and left worse off. I am not and I mean not a fan of the outgoing MODOT chief who left alot of very poorly built projects with his let's cheap projects to get more projects in management style. For instance look at the repaving project on I-435 in Kansas City from I-29 to US-169 which was done in 2008 on the cheap and is already falling apart badly and requires a redo in 2012 (basically millions thrown away).
Quote from: ShawnP on May 08, 2010, 02:48:05 AMYou mean another project Pete Rahn stuck his nose in and left worse off. I am not and I mean not a fan of the outgoing MODOT chief who left alot of very poorly built projects with his let's cheap projects to get more projects in management style. For instance look at the repaving project on I-435 in Kansas City from I-29 to US-169 which was done in 2008 on the cheap and is already falling apart badly and requires a redo in 2012 (basically millions thrown away).
You have an insider's eye into "Practical Design"?
POS design is what I call it. My theory is if your going to build it then build it right and build it to last 40 years on new construction and 15 on repaving projects. Anything less is just a waste of taxpayers money.
Traffic on I-64 in Missouri has increased by a decent amount since it reopened, compared to the 2007 volumes:
http://interact.stltoday.com/discussions/news/road-crew/LD0420101086/9 (http://interact.stltoday.com/discussions/news/road-crew/LD0420101086/9) (scroll to bottom of page)
Well the road itself is better now than I-70 and when I go thru ST. Louis a quicker route than going around.
From attempting to calculate the best way for various movements through the St. Louis area, the only Missouri to Illinois through interstate movement that sees any mileage savings from using the beltway appears to be I-70 to I-70. From the I-64 interchange at Wentzville to the I-55 interchange at Troy:
* 53 miles using I-270
* 53.5 miles if MO 370 is used to access I-270 (+/- 1 mile; can't recall the last quarter mile marker on MO 370)
* 56.5 miles if traffic stays on I-70 and uses I-170 to reach I-270.
* 61.25 staying on I-70
* 60.5 if I-64 is used on the Missouri side
* 58.25 if I-64 and MO 364 (when completed) are used to reach I-270 (assuming MO 364 is 20 miles long when finished)
* 63.25 if I-64, MO 364 (when completed), I-270, and I-64 are used on the Missouri side
The distances are also probably off since IDOT doesn't have a nice 1/4 mile marker map like MoDOT has:
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/links/docs/StL_Mile_Markers_204.pdf (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/links/docs/StL_Mile_Markers_204.pdf)
When the Great Lemon Bridge for I-70 downtown is finished, the staying on I-70 route will see the distance reduced by 1.6 miles to 59.65.
The I-55 (MO) to I-64 (IL) movement is almost equal distance wise via the PSB or I-255, being only about 3/4 mile shorter via the PSB.
I'm not going to estimate travel times yet because
1) Difficulties in using the PSB, especially the I-55 ramps
2) Most drivers ignore the speed limits anyways
3) With regards to #2, Illinois generally seems to have heavier enforcement of speed limits.
I'll agree on 2 as I drive alot to the Louisville area and Illinois is heavier on Revunue Enhancement errrrrr enforcement of speed limits. I find I-64 quicker if you time it to avoid rush hour.
Quote from: ShawnP on May 11, 2010, 01:12:34 PM
I'll agree on 2 as I drive alot to the Louisville area and Illinois is heavier on Revunue Enhancement errrrrr enforcement of speed limits. I find I-64 quicker if you time it to avoid rush hour.
Downstate Illinois can be tough as far as speed patrol. Up here, they're a lot more lax.
Some displays from the meeting for the new Daniel Boone Bridge are up on MoDOT's site:
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/BooneBridgevirtualpublicmeeting.htm (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/BooneBridgevirtualpublicmeeting.htm)
Hopefully the concrete \_/ beam design will be chosen since funding rules out anything nicer.
Local TV news article on displeasure with the I-64 rebuild already being congested:
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Drivers-say-no-improvement-in-traffic-jams-on-new-I-64-93355504.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Drivers-say-no-improvement-in-traffic-jams-on-new-I-64-93355504.html)
Personally, I have not had to use the new highway during a rush hour yet - and have been actively trying to avoid doing so, since using US 40 would also likely require using the just plain awful I-270, or the construction-impaired I-55 (the latter route has performed miserably in the afternoons since replacing the Union Road Bridge closed the left lane both directions, and has started backing up a tad before the true peak hour). The lane drop at Skinker still seems to be troublesome from watching the area traffic web sites.
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 12, 2010, 12:25:13 AMHopefully the concrete \_/ beam design will be chosen since funding rules out anything nicer.
Those are called "tub girders."
The westbound Blanchette Bridge (I-70 over the Missouri River) will likely close for a year for repairs:
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/MODOT-to-shut-down-part-of-Blanchette-Bridge-for-repairs-98284244.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/local/MODOT-to-shut-down-part-of-Blanchette-Bridge-for-repairs-98284244.html)
It looks like the closure will happen shortly after the semi-direct ramp for the NB I-270 to WB MO 364 movement opens. I'm still curious as to which route will receive most of the diverted traffic - MO 370, which directly ties back into I-70, or MO 364, with only multiple stoplight options to return to I-70?
Could be that some of the traffic that would utilize MO 364 has a destination that doesn't require getting back to I-70.
Turns out MoDOT will not be completely closing WB I-70 at the Blanchette, per the project website:
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/BlanchetteBridgerenovations.htm (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/BlanchetteBridgerenovations.htm)
I'm not sure a 3x3 would have less traffic impacts than completely detouring WB I-70 traffic to another bridge.
Found the EIS in the Northwestern Transportation Library for what is now the western double deck section of US 40 in St. Louis. Turns out the as built design was a compromise - the MHTD originally wanted to go with both directions at grade (Alternative 1) over a double deck configuration (Alternative 3 - sounded like this alternative was going to have a longer double deck section than the Alt 1 - Alt 3 combo compromise. Interestingly the EIS was for 'Traffic Relief 40'
Rich Piehl on misc.transport.road mentionned then one-mile gap of MO-364 freeway opened
http://www.fox2now.com/news/ktvi-st-charles-highway-route-94-open-072710,0,2868709.story
Post-Dispatch has a gallery of images regarding the original Arch planning. Image 8 appears to have an earlier plan for the downtown St. Louis freeway network, though too small to make out much detail, has a bridge with a cloverleaf on the Missouri side near either the site of the MLK Bridge or the new bridge currently under construction. It also appears to have US 40 feeding into the MacArthur Bridge, and if the current I-55/I-70 route was to be built in Missouri, it was not going to have access to the MacArthur Bridge.
Image 9 has an early plan in which I-70 would have been tunneled under Memorial Drive.
http://stltoday.mycapture.com/mycapture/folder.asp?event=975632&CategoryID=38578&view=1 (http://stltoday.mycapture.com/mycapture/folder.asp?event=975632&CategoryID=38578&view=1)
The city of St. Peters is trying to get funding for interchange improvements for the Mid Rivers Mall Drive interchange and MO 79 interchange:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/stcharles/article_040fdc32-c81b-11df-8c48-00127992bc8b.html (http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/stcharles/article_040fdc32-c81b-11df-8c48-00127992bc8b.html)
I'm curious what more could be done with the Mid Rivers interchange since it's already a partial cloverleaf.
EDIT: Both the MO 79 and Mid Rivers interchange are planned to become diverging diamonds, per the video on this page:
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/St-Charles-Co-and-St-Peters-considering-changes-along-I-70-103969734.html (http://www.kmov.com/news/local/St-Charles-Co-and-St-Peters-considering-changes-along-I-70-103969734.html)
Map of the Mid Rivers interchange and the start of the westbound C-D road from the Post-Dispatch website:
http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/b/ec/2a6/bec2a6d4-c81d-11df-8989-00127992bc8b-revisions/4c9d0fb951dfd.pdf.pdf (http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/b/ec/2a6/bec2a6d4-c81d-11df-8989-00127992bc8b-revisions/4c9d0fb951dfd.pdf.pdf)
I would love to see some sort of traffic simulation video to justify modifying the Mid Rivers interchange over simply having I-70 access to the proposed C-D road west of the Mid Rivers overpass. The whole idea seems like an admission that the I-70 reliever road from MO 370 at Spencer to MO 79 at Salt River is not going to draw enough traffic off to make a difference
EDIT2: Ok, I was mistaken on the MO 79 interchange; didn't see the partially covered loop the first time/
IDOT intends to add another loop to the I-64/IL 159 interchange, this one for the SB to EB movement See
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/boardpackets/2010/boardpacket-October2010.pdf (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/boardpackets/2010/boardpacket-October2010.pdf), Page 16/45.
Found an old thesis that has pictures of the original (1930's) US 40 freeway around Forest Park:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/express-highway-through-the-city-of-st-louis/oclc/621466816?title=&detail=&page=frame&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholarsmine.mst.edu%2Fthesis%2Fpdf%2FCampbell_1937_09007dcc807ac958.pdf%26checksum%3Dba4b8f8ff63090a47a0fed6abd864254&linktype=digitalObject (http://www.worldcat.org/title/express-highway-through-the-city-of-st-louis/oclc/621466816?title=&detail=&page=frame&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholarsmine.mst.edu%2Fthesis%2Fpdf%2FCampbell_1937_09007dcc807ac958.pdf%26checksum%3Dba4b8f8ff63090a47a0fed6abd864254&linktype=digitalObject)
(May require a couple more clicks to get to the actually document)
^^ Excellent find with wonderful images of an early freeway. There's no median or real paved shoulders yet, but the basic elements of grade separation and lack of traffic signals is there.
A little over a week ago I managed to access a copy of the 1959 A plan for the extension of Interstates Routes 55 and 70 in East St. Louis, Illinois.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg703.imageshack.us%2Fimg703%2F8218%2Fpsbapproach.jpg&hash=e689b1dd3576a317b99c4f7e316bfd43aad66c74)
I've edited the scan in an attempted to show how much the number of rail yards near the river has decreased.
Basically, it had been realized that the MLK Bridge was insufficient for interstate traffic. Missouri had decided the location for the PSB, and Illinois was trying to design the connection from this bridge to I-55/70. There is a brief discussion on what led to the choice of location for the PSB, but I've forgotten most of the details, and it was lacking or missing discussion of some options, such as twinning the MLK Bridge (then the Veterans Bridge), as an earlier study recommended doing eventually.
Alternate A shown on the scan above was not recommended due to costs of bridge the great number of railroad tracks then present. I think Alternate B had an unshown portion that went east of the recommended location, so it was not recommended due to community impacts.
There was a great aerial photo in the book showing the then-planned design for the PSB approach in Illinois - which I don't have a copy of due to it being a fold out larger than the copier and copies costing 25 cents per page. Basically the PSB was to be eight lanes. There would have been a trumpet interchange with a connection to IL 3, with the SB I-55 to SB IL 3 movement being a loop. The IL 3 connector also appeared to be closer to the parallel rail line than it was built. I-55/70 went down to six lanes east of IL 3. Next interchange was to be a half diamond (NB off, SB on) which IIRC was near the present ramps to Main and Fourth Streets. I-55/70 went down to four lanes after this interchange.
The book also had some plans for four-laning existing IL 3 north of the I-55/70/64 interchange, completed with grade separations over many (all?) of the railroads north of First Street.
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 25, 2010, 08:35:44 PM
IDOT intends to add another loop to the I-64/IL 159 interchange, this one for the SB to EB movement See
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/boardpackets/2010/boardpacket-October2010.pdf (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/boardpackets/2010/boardpacket-October2010.pdf), Page 16/45.
That news to me, I never heard them even talk about that interchange since they put in the first loop. I have a feeling the owners of St. Clair Square trying to do a little sweet-talking to them about making that left turn lane going into that shopping center longer. I never use that left turn lane for that certain intersection called Market Place cause it takes at least 2 light cycles to enter the mall, I usually stick to the next signal or use Highway 50 to enter the mall.
IDiOT has been keeping their so called plans for 270 at the Chain of Rocks under wraps, and I have a awful feeling that its going to take another 8/10/1994 to make them to wake up and face the music. IDiOT has done little to improve 270 up there since they built it between 1964-1966 and supposedly MoDOT is planning another study in that area.
Quote from: kharvey10 on January 22, 2011, 07:39:22 PM
IDiOT has been keeping their so called plans for 270 at the Chain of Rocks under wraps, and I have a awful feeling that its going to take another 8/10/1994 to make them to wake up and face the music. IDiOT has done little to improve 270 up there since they built it between 1964-1966 and supposedly MoDOT is planning another study in that area.
I have an unconfirmed feeling that the next MoDOT I-270 feeling will be looking more at how to add truck only lanes along the northern half, instead of adding another general purpose lane or fixing the outer roads.
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 23, 2011, 12:25:00 PM
Quote from: kharvey10 on January 22, 2011, 07:39:22 PM
IDiOT has been keeping their so called plans for 270 at the Chain of Rocks under wraps, and I have a awful feeling that its going to take another 8/10/1994 to make them to wake up and face the music. IDiOT has done little to improve 270 up there since they built it between 1964-1966 and supposedly MoDOT is planning another study in that area.
I have an unconfirmed feeling that the next MoDOT I-270 feeling will be looking more at how to add truck only lanes along the northern half, instead of adding another general purpose lane or fixing the outer roads.
Well the EW Gateway has this in their 2035 plan:
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/trans/legacy2035/Legacy2035-InvestmentPlanmapandindex.pdf
And this one was put online just in the past month:
http://expandingcapacity.transportation.org/states/MO_Unlocking_Gridlock_0410.pdf
I always thought improving I-270 at Chain of Rocks would be a better optition for Missouri and Illinois.
Recent Transportation Improvement Plan Changes from the E-W Gateway Website
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/boardpackets/2011/boardpacket-January2011.pdf (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/boardpackets/2011/boardpacket-January2011.pdf)
MoDOT
* Adding a temporary lane to the WB I-70 ramp to I-270 for the WB Blanchette Bridge closure
* Modify the MO 364 ramps to Muegge Road for the WB Blanchette Bridge closure
* Shoulder and pavement improvements for Routes D and DD in St. Charles County
* Shoulder and pavement improvements for Route P east of US 61 in St. Charles County
* A $200,000 study for I-270 from McDonnell Boulevard to MO 367
* Another study of the west end of the PSB - unless this is misnamed design work for replacing the I-55 ramps, this one is a total waste. There was enough study during the initial development of the Great Lemon Bridge; the money for this study ought to go to extending the I-270 study a few more miles.
IDOT
* Modify the US 67/Clark Bridge intersection with IL 143
* Resurfacing a short section of IL 143 in Edwardsville
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 24, 2011, 06:10:09 PM
Recent Transportation Improvement Plan Changes from the E-W Gateway Website
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/boardpackets/2011/boardpacket-January2011.pdf (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/boardpackets/2011/boardpacket-January2011.pdf)
MoDOT
* Adding a temporary lane to the WB I-70 ramp to I-270 for the WB Blanchette Bridge closure
* Modify the MO 364 ramps to Muegge Road for the WB Blanchette Bridge closure
* Shoulder and pavement improvements for Routes D and DD in St. Charles County
* Shoulder and pavement improvements for Route P east of US 61 in St. Charles County
* A $200,000 study for I-270 from McDonnell Boulevard to MO 367
* Another study of the west end of the PSB - unless this is misnamed design work for replacing the I-55 ramps, this one is a total waste. There was enough study during the initial development of the Great Lemon Bridge; the money for this study ought to go to extending the I-270 study a few more miles.
IDOT
* Modify the US 67/Clark Bridge intersection with IL 143
* Resurfacing a short section of IL 143 in Edwardsville
Most likely those approaches, which are poorly designed
And MoDOT should had extended that damn I-270 study to IL Route 3 at least
IDiOT plans of the US 67/IL 143 intersection is probably an indirect result of Dec 8, 2010 accident on the COR that clogged 143 for 9 miles b/c the COR was closed for 10 hours during the morning rush. That bleeping left turn from WB 143 to the Clark Bridge is a joke. IL 140 dumps into IL 143 traffic right before the bridge, this area wasn't well designed in the first place and they finished that work after the infamous night of August 10, 1994.
MoDOT has the virtual public hearing up for the WB Blanchette Bridge closure:
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/BlanchetteBridgeVirtualPublicMeeting.htm (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/BlanchetteBridgeVirtualPublicMeeting.htm)
MoDOT has put up a brief website regarding rehabilitation of the eastern double deck section on US 40:
http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/major_projects/I-64DoubleDeckRehabilitationProject.htm (http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/major_projects/I-64DoubleDeckRehabilitationProject.htm)
The closures for this project will surely do wonders for the already overloaded I-55 PSB ramps.
This area sees way too many full weekend closures as is right now. Used to be a MoDOT thing in STL, now IDiOT is pulling the same old stunts with weekend closures.
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ewg_rtp2040
EW Gateway doing another survey about transportation future of St. Louis
Interesting article about Ice on the Mississippi River at St. Louis. Good picture of bridges by Alton, Illinois.
Post Merge: February 10, 2011, 02:10:51 AM
Also some interesting shunpiking going on over the years.
Quote from: ShawnP on February 06, 2011, 01:23:48 PM
Interesting article about Ice on the Mississippi River at St. Louis. Good picture of bridges by Alton, Illinois.
This article?
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_2172efb3-0ec9-559c-b708-e4a8faa06481.html (http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_2172efb3-0ec9-559c-b708-e4a8faa06481.html)
EDIT: Here's an old article about the MacArthur Bridge becoming toll free due to competition from the PSB:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-mkfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FdUEAAAAIBAJ&dq=poplar-street-bridge&pg=1370%2C4327415 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-mkfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FdUEAAAAIBAJ&dq=poplar-street-bridge&pg=1370%2C4327415)
Thought it was neat that people would take a dangerous trip on the ice to avoid a toll.
Post Merge: February 10, 2011, 02:10:45 AM
Yeah I forgot the linky thing.........
http://www.route66university.com/maps/mo_stl-sprfld.pdf
Old map of St. Louis before they built the interstates.
http://www.route66university.com/maps/mo_stl-spr_69.pdf
Map in 1969 (note the proposed alignments of I-64 and I-255)
MoDOT planning a public hearing over the Highway 40 double deck section repairs today from 1 to 4 at St. Louis City Hall
http://www.modot.mo.gov/stlouis/news_and_information/District6News.shtml?action=displaySSI&newsId=65840
Also more details in the upcoming Blanchette Bridge rebuild here: http://www.fox2now.com/news/ktvi-blanchette-bridge-closure-looming-20110222,0,2689412.story
Found a research paper online that seems to have a few planning maps for St. Louis and some history on I-70:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=49&ved=0CEgQFjAIOCg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmospace.umsystem.edu%2Fxmlui%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F10355%2F6472%2Fresearch.pdf%3Fsequence%3D3&rct=j&q=%22north-south%20distributor%22%20st.%20louis&ei=yhNrTe7GKcWt8AbD2KzXCw&usg=AFQjCNGoYvbK6AzAZx3DtztNM0bSSR601Q&cad=rja (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=49&ved=0CEgQFjAIOCg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmospace.umsystem.edu%2Fxmlui%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F10355%2F6472%2Fresearch.pdf%3Fsequence%3D3&rct=j&q=%22north-south%20distributor%22%20st.%20louis&ei=yhNrTe7GKcWt8AbD2KzXCw&usg=AFQjCNGoYvbK6AzAZx3DtztNM0bSSR601Q&cad=rja)
St. Louis post-dispatch just put this online:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_eccaffa4-3a48-5180-bdd6-78b750c27b6e.html
The variable speed limits on I-270 will be changed to advisory speeds:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/article_e4f91794-4a62-11e0-bbce-0017a4a78c22.html (http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/article_e4f91794-4a62-11e0-bbce-0017a4a78c22.html)
MoDOT admitting they wasted a million dollars on that?? That project was full of epic fail. Last month they set the speed limit to 40 mph the morning after a ice storm event and cars were still crashing all over 270 in South County. Here is MoDOT undoing another one of Pete Rahn's dirty tricks.
Pete Rahn did more damage to MODOT than he did good. His Pratical design's so made me mad. That and his lowering of pavement standards (for instance I-435 around KCI was repaved in August of 08 and had potholes by December of 08).
first variable speed limit sign westbound 255 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Interstate+255,+Illinois&hl=en&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&geocode=FRcXTQIdMW-h-g&split=0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=23.875,57.630033&hq=&hnear=Interstate+255,+Illinois&ll=38.488364,-90.280795&spn=0.015956,0.042272&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=38.488401,-90.280983&panoid=8R038hUOnUsYTtEnkZOm9A&cbp=12,308.54,,0,5) - note the addition of the 270 shield, as MoDOT treats their part of the 270/255 loop as if it is the same highway
another example of Pete Rahn failure was the Highway 40 rebuild in St. Louis. I would added the Great Lemon Bridge to one of his failures but he didn't stick around for construction to start.
What was wrong with the I-64 rebuild?
(I am of the opinion that still calling it Highway 40 is silly)
It has narrow shoulders and in some areas appears to have been built on the cheapie, cheap.
Shoulders seemed wide when I drove it, except for the old westbound bridge over the Mississippi that is absurdly narrow.
the westbound span predated the interstate highway system, it was built in the 1930s. They restriped the lanes in both directions sometime in 2002-2003. The westbound span has a reduced speed limit but nobody obeys it.
It is not uncommon to see night and weekend full closures of the westbound span for maintenance.
And go look at MoDOT press releases - when they talk about the Boone Bridge they refer it at 40/61. Anything else its 64.
And for more fun and games: neither the Chain of Rocks and Poplar Street Bridges have shoulders. If you break down on either bridge you are SOL and I know that for a fact cause I known peeps that have. The Poplar has 24/7 emergency towing, but break down on the Chain of Rocks you are screwed.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 16, 2011, 10:06:52 AM
What was wrong with the I-64 rebuild?
1) Not widening the highway between I-170 and Skinker - though this is more the fault of the Metropolitan Planning Organization than MoDOT's, since the whole Cross County MTIA which this decision was based on was royally defective.
2) The area around I-170 is lacking - Brentwood and Hanley should have been SPUI's. The whole section should have been designed so a driver heading eastbound wishing to exit at Hanley did not have to go through a stoplight at Brentwood. In addition, SB I-170 traffic should be able to access the C-D road to access Hanley, not have to use stoplight infested Eager or go through the Brentwood/Eager intersection.
3) The addition of sound walls west of Spoede Road when nothing was done to this section other than give it a fresh coat of asphalt - the hills on this section were supposed to have been cut down.
4) (Strong personal bias) More should have been done with this project to help fix the Skinker/Clayton/Oakland disaster - could have gone with a half diamond east/north of Oakland or broken Oakland up into a one-way pair or something.
MoDOT will raise the speed limit on US 40-61 west of Route K to 65:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/article_f36762dc-54c0-11e0-a4df-00127992bc8b.html (http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/article_f36762dc-54c0-11e0-a4df-00127992bc8b.html)
IDOT has added one new ground mounted sign on WB I-55/70 for I-255 inside the IL 157 interchange, and seems to have changed at least one of other signs for I-255 to a diagramtic version. Couldn't get a good look due to the wonderful weather and trying to figure out what all the brake riding was for.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 26, 2011, 07:44:04 PM
IDOT has added one new ground mounted sign on WB I-55/70 for I-255 inside the IL 157 interchange, and seems to have changed at least one of other signs for I-255 to a diagramtic version. Couldn't get a good look due to the wonderful weather and trying to figure out what all the brake riding was for.
Looks like IDOT did it last week, I was through there last weekend and didn't see any changes at all.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/article_b0881271-e510-5c1c-9059-d23896855b9a.html?mode=story
This one got some details about the so called confusion of the 270/255 loop (hint read some of the juicy comments aimed all at MoDOT and not at IDiOT)
also, MoDOT and IDiOT is up to their dirty weekend tricks again. In time for april fools day, they're doing another full weekend closure on 55/70 from the 64 split to 203, making traffic to detour on sections of 64 and 255 that both got a lane down for construction. MoDOT is also restricting lanes on Highway 40 over the Boone Bridge over the Missouri River.
http://www.dot.state.il.us/road/closures.txt - read the press release fail, they listed the wrong Friday for the closing. Its actually April 8.
edit reason: corrected date of the weekend closure IDiOT other st louis website stl-traffic.org lists the correct dates.
Why are the left lanes on various STL freeways concrete with the remaining lanes asphalt? Are these the result of shoulder to lane conversions or what..
Quote from: UptownRoadGeek on April 05, 2011, 03:36:28 AM
Why are the left lanes on various STL freeways concrete with the remaining lanes asphalt? Are these the result of shoulder to lane conversions or what..
More like narrow grass median to lane + small shoulder + jersey barrier conversions.
As expected for some time, MoDOT finally announced the date of the I-270 North County corridor study for April 14
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/I-270CorridorStudy.htm
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 26, 2011, 07:44:04 PM
IDOT has added one new ground mounted sign on WB I-55/70 for I-255 inside the IL 157 interchange, and seems to have changed at least one of other signs for I-255 to a diagramtic version. Couldn't get a good look due to the wonderful weather and trying to figure out what all the brake riding was for.
well I made a special trip in the area just for you but the photos not great quality as I was shooting into sunlight and bugs crashing in the windshield been really bad lately.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5181%2F5622941589_a878714fc3.jpg&hash=8354136f3fb940ba1502e1eb69de5ae35e2c7988) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29886127@N02/5622941589/)
wb5570at255 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29886127@N02/5622941589/) by Kimmy1978 (http://www.flickr.com/people/29886127@N02/), on Flickr
compare to google street view (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=collinsville,+il&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Collinsville,+Madison,+Illinois&gl=us&ll=38.675769,-90.019752&spn=0.00397,0.010568&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.675607,-90.020197&panoid=HMp16bSQqXYajP2vH8EzdA&cbp=12,280.09,,0,-4.22)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5069%2F5622941493_5f28eaa1d5.jpg&hash=d0c719bbfadca9f8daf191b5b686c4d50ea8c26f) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29886127@N02/5622941493/)
wb5570westof157 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29886127@N02/5622941493/) by Kimmy1978 (http://www.flickr.com/people/29886127@N02/), on Flickr
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5304%2F5623527892_c2884aff6b.jpg&hash=ea6673c00328041300dae61256f830b4bae33878) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29886127@N02/5623527892/)
wb5570eastof157 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29886127@N02/5623527892/) by Kimmy1978 (http://www.flickr.com/people/29886127@N02/), on Flick
google street view (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=collinsville,+il&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Collinsville,+Madison,+Illinois&gl=us&ll=38.686,-90.006153&spn=0.002002,0.005284&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.68592,-90.006235&panoid=HkWYsLAPYfZgP3XUCuIogA&cbp=12,235.33,,0,-22.5)
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 25, 2010, 08:35:44 PM
IDOT intends to add another loop to the I-64/IL 159 interchange, this one for the SB to EB movement See
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/boardpackets/2010/boardpacket-October2010.pdf (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/boardpackets/2010/boardpacket-October2010.pdf), Page 16/45.
Today I found this in the Belleville newspaper
http://www.bnd.com/2011/04/18/1675207/new-interstate-64-ramp-work-begins.html#storylink=omni_popular
Go figure the November 1 deadline is meant to keep all those businesses happy.
Few things of interest in the FY 2012-2015 TIP from East-West Gateway
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/presentations/FY2012-2015TIP-Draft.pdf (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/presentations/FY2012-2015TIP-Draft.pdf)
* Appears to be some funding for Phase 3 (MO 94 to US 40) of the Page Avenue Extension
* A few projects for US 40, including replacement of the WB Boone Bridge, the restriping and ramp reconfig between I-270 and MO 141, a project between Kingshighway and Sarah (bridge replacements and possibly adding a half diamond at Tower Grove)
* A project on I-70 at Memorial Drive - Part of the Arch Grounds redo or MoDOT screwing the region with a replacement boulevard?
EDIT: Some other projects of note from a draft of the new long range plan, mostly in 2031-2040 period:
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/presentations/Legacy2040Upd-April2011.pdf (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/presentations/Legacy2040Upd-April2011.pdf)
* Widening of I-55/70 between I-255 and I-270 has finally appeared
* Constructing I-70 between the I-64 connector and I-55 east of IL 203 (so Illinois gets more out of the bridge, yet completing the interchange on the west end of the Great Lemon has to wait still? :banghead: :banghead:)
* Replacement of the EB viaduct on US 40 at Vandeventer
The 2021-2030 period has an upgrade for the WB lanes of I-44 between Mraz and I-44 - I would have thought Antire Hill would have been a more likely candidate for upgrading.
Why is the "Interstate 270" being spelled out instead of using "TO I-270" shields on one of the photos kharvey10 just posted?
Some of the long range plans need to be put on a fast track right now. That Great Lemon Bridge project will look dirt cheap compared to fixing up a certain 10 mile section of 270 that should had been done 20 years ago. But IDiOT has never given a effing care on their section of 270 unlike MoDOT. When I saw those I-270 north corridor study documents last month I wasn't even surprised at the safety ratings on the section e/o Route 367. Hell, MoDOT wasn't even shy about telling KMOX last week what really needs to be replaced. What IDiOT does: duck and hide like they always have. I wished that the Internet and Twitter was around back in 1994 when some serious shit did hit the fan.
Oh yeah, IDiOT is backing up traffic through next week for their annual canal bridge inspections which isn't going to yield to any short or long term fix.
MoDOT is apparently going to look at adding HOV lanes around St. Louis, given an entry in a recent list of scoping projects:
http://www.modot.org/plansandprojects/construction_program/STIP2012-2016/documents/Sec03_DesignandScoping.pdf (http://www.modot.org/plansandprojects/construction_program/STIP2012-2016/documents/Sec03_DesignandScoping.pdf)
(it's on Page 31/48).
Quote from: Buummu on May 03, 2011, 10:28:37 PM
Why is the "Interstate 270" being spelled out instead of using "TO I-270" shields on one of the photos kharvey10 just posted?
Very common for IDOT (and ISTHA for that matter) to spell out "Interstate" in text when referring to a cross road on a small green sign or as a destination.
Looking through the STIP for 2012-2016 for the St. Louis District; not sure if the 'bold new direction' is going to result in any major changes.
http://www.modot.org/plansandprojects/construction_program/STIP2012-2016/districtconstruct/documents/D06_Hwy_bridge_Sched.pdf (http://www.modot.org/plansandprojects/construction_program/STIP2012-2016/districtconstruct/documents/D06_Hwy_bridge_Sched.pdf)
Couple stand out projects:
* The I-44/MO 141 interchange may be getting its first flyover, one for SB to EB traffic (Page 17/28)
* Reconstruction of the interchange at the west end of the PSB is shown for 2013/2014 (Page 22/28)
* The Arch Grounds Improvements around I-70 are slated for construction in 2013/2014 also (Page 22/28)
Quote from: Brandon on May 07, 2011, 06:38:48 PM
Quote from: Buummu on May 03, 2011, 10:28:37 PM
Why is the "Interstate 270" being spelled out instead of using "TO I-270" shields on one of the photos kharvey10 just posted?
Very common for IDOT (and ISTHA for that matter) to spell out "Interstate" in text when referring to a cross road on a small green sign or as a destination.
Oh i see.. alright thanks!
The project listing for IDOT's June letting is up; the Chain of Rocks Canal Bridge replacement on I-270 is among them, along with the addition of an auxiliary lane on NB I-55/70 between the IL 162 interchange and the I-70/I-270 interchange.
IDiOT literally makes me sick to my stomach, I just can't wait to give them a few choice words in that EW Gateway Open House on May 25.
Speed cameras for I-70 east of I-270 St. Louis County?
http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/article_6621fa56-87a9-11e0-bbd5-001a4bcf6878.html (http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/article_6621fa56-87a9-11e0-bbd5-001a4bcf6878.html)
well MoDOT is doing more dirty little tricks for Highway 40 in downtown St. Louis this weekend in time for the U2 Concert at Busch
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/news_and_information/District6News.shtml?action=displaySSI&newsId=106379
In somewhat unrelated news, I have changed and partially rewrote that one blog I got to corb270.wordpress.com as of 7/14/11.
Ribbon cutting for the new NB I-270 to WB MO 364 flyover is planned for Friday, July 22:
http://www.stltoday.com/suburban-journals/metro/news/article_0632f2a8-b23d-11e0-8216-0019bb30f31a.html (http://www.stltoday.com/suburban-journals/metro/news/article_0632f2a8-b23d-11e0-8216-0019bb30f31a.html)
MODOT is discussing the idea of adding lanes to 270.
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/MoDOT-plans-Monday-meeting-to-discuss-I-270-expansion-138297919.html
Quote from: adt1982 on January 29, 2012, 08:46:09 PM
MODOT is discussing the idea of adding lanes to 270.
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/MoDOT-plans-Monday-meeting-to-discuss-I-270-expansion-138297919.html
The Virtual public meeting is up with maps of the project.
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/I-270wideningvirtualpublicmeeting.htm (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/I-270wideningvirtualpublicmeeting.htm)
The city of St. Louis is seeking a consultant to study a new downtown multimodal access plan, which includes looking at removing the elevated section of I-70. Post-Dispatch blog entry:
http://www.stltoday.com/business/columns/building-blocks/is-st-louis-eyeing-teardown-of-i--s-elevated/article_286c7238-6262-11e1-9e33-001a4bcf6878.html (http://www.stltoday.com/business/columns/building-blocks/is-st-louis-eyeing-teardown-of-i--s-elevated/article_286c7238-6262-11e1-9e33-001a4bcf6878.html)
RFP from the city:
http://stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/sldc/documents/upload//RFP-Downtown-Multimodal-Access-with-Attachments.pdf (http://stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/sldc/documents/upload//RFP-Downtown-Multimodal-Access-with-Attachments.pdf)
^^ Then where do they propose all the traffic goes? City streets? Yeah, that'll work. Real safe for pedestrians.
Online public meeting for the I-70 archgrounds lid project:
http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/ParkovertheHighwayVirtualMeeting.htm (http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/ParkovertheHighwayVirtualMeeting.htm)
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 10, 2012, 06:25:16 PM
Online public meeting for the I-70 archgrounds lid project:
http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/ParkovertheHighwayVirtualMeeting.htm (http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/ParkovertheHighwayVirtualMeeting.htm)
Won't that be I44 when the new bridge opens?? :)
rte66man
Quote from: rte66man on April 11, 2012, 11:34:28 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 10, 2012, 06:25:16 PM
Online public meeting for the I-70 archgrounds lid project:
http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/ParkovertheHighwayVirtualMeeting.htm (http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/ParkovertheHighwayVirtualMeeting.htm)
Won't that be I44 when the new bridge opens?? :)
rte66man
It is mentioned on the website that it will be I-44 when the project is done:
QuoteAlternative 1 - Preferred Alternative - Includes the Park over the Highway structure between Market and Chestnut. This alternative also includes changing access between I-44 (the existing I-70) and Memorial - traffic will be able to get on westbound I-44 and off on eastbound I-44 into downtown. This proposal also includes access from eastbound I-44 to the Martin Luther King bridge.
(//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/midwest/i44-55-70_shields_st_louis_080899.jpg)
Found this on the old AA Gallery from Jim Teresco (Jim on the forum). Dated August 8, 1999. Good stuff!
That should be on the "best of" road signs - its button copy with state-named shields to boot - and Missouri normally don't do state-name shields on BGS
Quote from: kharvey10 on April 24, 2012, 05:10:41 PM
That should be on the "best of" road signs - its button copy with state-named shields to boot - and Missouri normally don't do state-name shields on BGS
looks like the sign was heavily modified, so they took one of their surface-level standard shields and put it up there. I'll bet at some point the sign said something about 40 and 66 making a turn.
is that a black sign, or just dark green in lighting from behind?
appears dark green, can't tell the actual color from the shadows. MoDOT used to do a lot of black guide signs and dark green signs back in the 40s-60s
Virtual public meeting for I-270 from US 67 to MO 367 is up:
http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/I-270NorthCorridorVPMMay2012.htm (http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/I-270NorthCorridorVPMMay2012.htm)
Highlights:
* The US 67 interchange changes from a cloverleaf to a SPUI (although it is currently planned to lose the WB-NB loop anyway).
* The option to keep the two way frontage roads mainly uses roundabouts for the ramp intersections, although there is at least one braided ramp in there.
* The MO 367 interchange changes from a cloverleaf to a SPUI. Really brilliant design, with MO 367 being a full freeway north of this interchange.
:banghead: :pan: A SPUI for MO-367, the weed they smoked isn't high quality to think like that. :eyebrow: A six-ramp parclo with a flyover from I-270 east to MO-367 is a better alternative.
However, the one-way frontage roads is a avenue to explore.
Edit: I tried to sketch a rendering of that reconfigurated interchange that should be. :meh: :crazy:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1268.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj563%2Fsd-100%2FI-270interchange367.jpg&hash=9f869bb1ffa0f4b56201def2092b272e15ec37cf)
Route 367 does have a single stop light north of Lindbergh - with Route 94. Due to that god damn single lane railroad overpass that route 94 has just west of 367, it is unlikely that light will change. 367 also has lights south of 270 as well. There is also an hospital on the northwest corner of the 270/367 interchange and a high school on the northeast corner of that interchange.
However, that interchange does not have the congestion compared to Lindbergh. The eastbound lanes back up west of Lindbergh every afternoon and that congestion goes past Hanley/Graham. That backup used to be a lot worse prior to the rebuild of the 270/170 interchange but it still happens. The exit with Lindbergh is due for upgrades whether or not they got the money for the rest of the corridor.
MoDOT would still be better off holding off most of the non-essential construction, it just going to be a matter of time before IDiOT realizes that they made a big mistake of doing the canal bridge project long before of fixing the rest of that corridor they're on the hook for. (IDiOT has an history of screwing over the "River Bend" area of Alton/Wood River/Godfrey, etc, and the locals are already furious over the way the 255 project is going. When those wrecks start piling up on 270 between the canal and Route 203 starting next fall, the locals will really get livid.)
I wonder what is being changed here.
http://www.bnd.com/2012/09/19/2330183/idot-to-close-lanes-on-interstate.html
Quote from: adt1982 on September 19, 2012, 11:03:09 PM
I wonder what is being changed here.
http://www.bnd.com/2012/09/19/2330183/idot-to-close-lanes-on-interstate.html
The next trip through downtown STL I do on 64 I vow to have a camera ready.
well found no new signage installed. However, I found not one but two neutered I-64 signs west of 270 on the Missouri side of the river that are NOT on BGS, however, both days it was raining and couldn't get any shots off. Both such signs were westbound. In downtown St. Louis, though, the new signage on 55 near the bridge has green outs as they got the I-44 shields covered on some of them but the locals are not fooled, in fact the concurrency is signed southbound anyway. Vast majority of them see that section of 55 between the PSB and the 44 split as if its 44/55 anyway and that was from day one. Locals call it what they want to call it, and MoDOT needs to be aware of that.
Quote from: kharvey10 on October 05, 2012, 11:38:28 PM
Locals call it what they want to call it
"highway farty"
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 06, 2012, 12:00:30 AM
Quote from: kharvey10 on October 05, 2012, 11:38:28 PM
Locals call it what they want to call it
"highway farty"
You mean "I-SixteeFar" :)
Speaking of St. Louis freeways, the Phase II of MO-364 is essentially complete, but there's no mile markers on the Phase II portion. There's hardly any on the Phase I portion in St. Charles County, but that job is perfectly done in St. Louis County.
The construction schedule for Phase 3 of the Page Avenue extension has been announced:
http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/361402/3/Route-364-Page-project-update- (http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/361402/3/Route-364-Page-project-update-)
Seems odd that the last sections will open from west to east, opposite of all work so far.
Public meeting exhibits are up for Phase 3 of the Page Avenue extension (MO 94 to US 40-61)
http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/major_projects/documents/Displays_InOneFile.pdf (http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/major_projects/documents/Displays_InOneFile.pdf)
Broken out into smaller files here:
http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/major_projects/Route364March2013Meeting.htm (http://www.modot.gov/stlouis/major_projects/Route364March2013Meeting.htm)
My comments:
* The interchange with US 40-61 has been downgraded to a full cloverleaf with a deformed EB-EB loop ramp. The original plan had a turbine ramp for this movement (the stub for which is visible in the NW quadrant in today's interchange). I know MoDOT's under funding pressure, but this design is just guaranteeing that the interchange will have to be modified in the future. In addition, there is a lousy one-lane section for the WB mainline between the ramp to WB US 40 and the loop from WB US 40.
* The WB off-EB on half diamond with Henke Road is new. Given that there will be alternate access to MO 364 (albeit in an indirect manor) and funding issues, this interchange should have been omitted or added in the future.
* The Bryan Road interchange has changed from a SPUI to a diamond with a loop for the WB MO 364 to SB Bryan Road movement.
* The interchange with Rte K has changed from a partial cloverleaf with entrance loop from Rte K to a SPUI. I've heard that Rte K could use widening to six lanes, but it appears the bridge will not allow for that.
* The interchange with MO 94 has been downgraded so now the EB MO 364 to Mid Rivers Mall Drive and the south outer road will be done with a new stoplight on MO 94
Good on MODOT and cities to come up with this. Every last stinkin time I have driven on I-70 as rush hour I am backed up. Anyone have a ideal if MO-364 will get a Interstate designation in the future.
Quote from: ShawnP on March 25, 2013, 09:58:51 PM
Anyone have a ideal if MO-364 will get a Interstate designation in the future.
I'll have an ideal, if you know what I mean.
Some projects of note from the 2014-2017 Transportation Improvement Program for the St. Louis area (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/Library/trans/tip/FY2014-2017/TIp-FY2014-2017-Final.pdf (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/Library/trans/tip/FY2014-2017/TIp-FY2014-2017-Final.pdf)
* Page B-93 (indicated as 183 in Chrome) has funding for a first tier environmental study along I-70 from US 61 in Wentzville to the east end of the reversible lanes in 2014. Giving the listing of the project purpose as "sustainability," I'm guessing the study will be looking at HOV lanes.
* Page B-109 (201) has the I-255 interchange with Davis Ferry Road funded in 2015.
* Page B-110 (202) has the I-64 interchange with Rider Road (shown here in Google Maps: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mascoutah,+IL&hl=en&ll=38.564576,-89.848037&spn=0.014211,0.033023&sll=42.032432,-88.091192&sspn=0.215992,0.528374&oq=masc&hnear=Mascoutah,+St+Clair,+Illinois&t=m&z=16 (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mascoutah,+IL&hl=en&ll=38.564576,-89.848037&spn=0.014211,0.033023&sll=42.032432,-88.091192&sspn=0.215992,0.528374&oq=masc&hnear=Mascoutah,+St+Clair,+Illinois&t=m&z=16)) funded in 2014.
* Page B-112 (204) has a feasibility study for connecting IL 15 to the Tudor/Pigott ramps of the PSB Complex.
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 01, 2013, 10:17:50 PM
* Page B-110 (202) has the I-64 interchange with Rider Road (shown here in Google Maps: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mascoutah,+IL&hl=en&ll=38.564576,-89.848037&spn=0.014211,0.033023&sll=42.032432,-88.091192&sspn=0.215992,0.528374&oq=masc&hnear=Mascoutah,+St+Clair,+Illinois&t=m&z=16 (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mascoutah,+IL&hl=en&ll=38.564576,-89.848037&spn=0.014211,0.033023&sll=42.032432,-88.091192&sspn=0.215992,0.528374&oq=masc&hnear=Mascoutah,+St+Clair,+Illinois&t=m&z=16)) funded in 2014.
Wasn't close to the approximate location where the planned US-50 expressway was supposed to link with I-64?
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on August 02, 2013, 01:35:55 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 01, 2013, 10:17:50 PM
* Page B-110 (202) has the I-64 interchange with Rider Road (shown here in Google Maps: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mascoutah,+IL&hl=en&ll=38.564576,-89.848037&spn=0.014211,0.033023&sll=42.032432,-88.091192&sspn=0.215992,0.528374&oq=masc&hnear=Mascoutah,+St+Clair,+Illinois&t=m&z=16 (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mascoutah,+IL&hl=en&ll=38.564576,-89.848037&spn=0.014211,0.033023&sll=42.032432,-88.091192&sspn=0.215992,0.528374&oq=masc&hnear=Mascoutah,+St+Clair,+Illinois&t=m&z=16)) funded in 2014.
Wasn't close to the approximate location where the planned US-50 expressway was supposed to link with I-64?
The US 50 freeway would have used the existing cloverleaf with IL 158 and US 50. There's a slight jog in the east frontage road for US 50 where the freeway would have broken off:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mascoutah,+IL&hl=en&ll=38.579505,-89.872866&spn=0.002512,0.004128&sll=38.580715,-89.891081&sspn=0.056831,0.164795&oq=mas&hnear=Mascoutah,+St+Clair,+Illinois&t=h&z=19 (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mascoutah,+IL&hl=en&ll=38.579505,-89.872866&spn=0.002512,0.004128&sll=38.580715,-89.891081&sspn=0.056831,0.164795&oq=mas&hnear=Mascoutah,+St+Clair,+Illinois&t=h&z=19)
Google earth shows the frontage road had a much sharper curve and terminated at US 50 before being the road was extended northward around 1998.
EDIT: Any revival of a freeway or expressway facility for the US 50 corridor though will now likely be somewhere near the I-64 interchange with IL 4, based on talk I've heard and Page 13/16 of IDOT's 2008 Annual Report:
http://www.dot.state.il.us/annualreport/2008/insideoutside.pdf (http://www.dot.state.il.us/annualreport/2008/insideoutside.pdf)
As of this weekend MoDOT has replaced two of the fairly new signs for WB I-44 and the Truman Parkway on NB I-55. The new signs have the leftmost lane for WB I-44 and the center-left lane for Truman Parkway.
The new ramp from WB I-70 to the Eads Bridge and Washington Avenue is open, though it is very poorly marked with no advanced signing and one orange sign maybe 500 feet before the ramp.
It appears MoDOT wants to convert the partial cloverleaf between I-70 and Fifth Street in St. Charles to a DDI. Source (top entry on Page 21/45) (http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/trans/tip/FY2015-2018/localprogramappssubmitted-april2014.pdf)
The first section of MO Hwy 364 Phase 3 opened this evening around 8:00pm between Hwy K in O'Fallon and I-64 in Lake St. Louis. I just happened to be in the area when the cones/barriers were being removed to open the new stretch of highway, so I was one of the first to drive on it. :clap:
The final section of MO Hwy 364 (Hwy K to MO Hwy 94/Mid Rivers Mall Dr.) should open by the end of the month, completing the freeway from I-64 in St. Charles County to I-270 in St. Louis County.
Noticed quite a bit of hatred, in this thread, for former MO Dot transportation chief Pete Rahn. Rahn did come from New Mexico, where he was chief under gadfly governor Gary Johnson (Jan 95 - Jan 03). Rahn in New Mexico was responsible for greenlighting quite a bit of roadway work, much of which was sorely inadequate, of poor design and lousy construction quality. Lowlights included such "projects" as the Alamogordo "relief" route, US -70 four lane, NM 44 / US 550 four laning, and US 54 four laning as well as the US 70 "work" on the eastern side of las Cruces. Rahn, incidentally, is back in New Mexico, as District III chief in the Albuquerque Office of NMDot.
They apparently opened the last leg of MO 364 late yesterday. I went through about 3PM and it was still closed to the public. It will be a bit dodgy for a while as only one lane will be open on the new stretch and not all the ramps are open. I'm curious to see how much it will relieve traffic on I-64 near 94.
More info at http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/Route364upgrade.htm
I was just in St. Louis from the middle of last week into the weekend.
Didn't have a chance to drive over the new I-70 bridge over the Mississippi River, but think it's slightly odd for what is now I-44 not having ramps onto the new bridge. However, traffic from I-44 wanting to cross the Mississippi would more likely do so from the older crossing.
A new "cap" over I-44 in front of the Gateway Arch is far along in progress. I can't tell for certain, but it looks like that block-wide cap will remove Memorial Drive between Chestnut Street and Market Street, creating a pedestrian-only zone between the Old Courthouse and the National Park. Underneath the cap MO DOT is doing a bunch of work in the median of I-44. I can't tell for sure if they're trying to convert it to 3 lanes in each direction, up from the previous 2, or just doing road improvement work. If they do make it 3 lanes in each direction the road won't have any shoulders (which would seem to violate Interstate highway standards). Our civic club group new better than attempt to drive a car near the arch. We walked from the Union Station Hotel to the Gateway Arch park instead.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 04, 2014, 12:24:10 PM
I was just in St. Louis from the middle of last week into the weekend.
Didn't have a chance to drive over the new I-70 bridge over the Mississippi River, but think it's slightly odd for what is now I-44 not having ramps onto the new bridge. However, traffic from I-44 wanting to cross the Mississippi would more likely do so from the older crossing.
A new "cap" over I-44 in front of the Gateway Arch is far along in progress. I can't tell for certain, but it looks like that block-wide cap will remove Memorial Drive between Chestnut Street and Market Street, creating a pedestrian-only zone between the Old Courthouse and the National Park. Underneath the cap MO DOT is doing a bunch of work in the median of I-44. I can't tell for sure if they're trying to convert it to 3 lanes in each direction, up from the previous 2, or just doing road improvement work. If they do make it 3 lanes in each direction the road won't have any shoulders (which would seem to violate Interstate highway standards). Our civic club group new better than attempt to drive a car near the arch. We walked from the Union Station Hotel to the Gateway Arch park instead.
These two sites outline all of the changes associated with the CityArchRiver 2015 project:
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/ParkovertheHighway.htm
http://www.cityarchriver.org/construction/roadway/
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 04, 2014, 12:24:10 PM
I was just in St. Louis from the middle of last week into the weekend.
Didn't have a chance to drive over the new I-70 bridge over the Mississippi River, but think it's slightly odd for what is now I-44 not having ramps onto the new bridge. However, traffic from I-44 wanting to cross the Mississippi would more likely do so from the older crossing.
A new "cap" over I-44 in front of the Gateway Arch is far along in progress. I can't tell for certain, but it looks like that block-wide cap will remove Memorial Drive between Chestnut Street and Market Street, creating a pedestrian-only zone between the Old Courthouse and the National Park. Underneath the cap MO DOT is doing a bunch of work in the median of I-44. I can't tell for sure if they're trying to convert it to 3 lanes in each direction, up from the previous 2, or just doing road improvement work. If they do make it 3 lanes in each direction the road won't have any shoulders (which would seem to violate Interstate highway standards). Our civic club group new better than attempt to drive a car near the arch. We walked from the Union Station Hotel to the Gateway Arch park instead.
I think the reason that I-44 doesn't have ramps is due to them planning a potential second span, for when traffic counts warrant it.
A draft version of the new long-range transportation plan for the St. Louis region is online (45 MB file) (http://www.ewgateway.org/download/connected2045/Connected2045-1.pdf)
Highlights
* A replacement of the Chain of Rocks Main Channel Bridge on I-270 is listed for the 2016-2025 time frame
* Six-laning US 40 between MO K and I-70 is listed in the 2026-2035 time frame
* In the upper-tier unfunded wishlist is what I'm assuming is the connector freeway between the new I-70 Mississippi crossing and I-55 east of IL 203, but no mention of the companion river bridge. The cost seems awfully high though, considering it is through almost all undeveloped land - $1.5 billion. The many times longer Gateway Connector (in the second-tier unfunded wish list) is listed as $1.015 billion.
* Also in the uppper-tier wish list is a new project to widen I-270 between MO 100/Machester Road and US 40.
The City of Wentzville has posted an Access Justification Report for a new interchange on I-70 with the proposed David Hoekel Parkway, which per the proposed signing plan on Page 89/89 of the pdf would be Exit 206. Link (http://www.wentzvillemo.org/DHP%20AJR%2020140214%20%20Final%20FHWA%20Submittal.pdf)
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 03, 2015, 11:29:30 PM
* In the upper-tier unfunded wishlist is what I'm assuming is the connector freeway between the new I-70 Mississippi crossing and I-55 east of IL 203, but no mention of the companion river bridge. The cost seems awfully high though, considering it is through almost all undeveloped land - $1.5 billion. The many times longer Gateway Connector (in the second-tier unfunded wish list) is listed as $1.015 billion.
That price suggests the companion bridge is included in the estimate.
When is the I 55 SB/64 WB to I 44 EB ramp going to get finished?
Quote from: robbones on April 04, 2015, 10:32:45 PM
When is the I 55 SB/64 WB to I 44 EB ramp going to get finished?
Who knows? Anything involving the Poplar Street Bridge is never-ending.
Per recent documents from from the East-West Gateway Council of Governments, (//http://) (Pages 18/35 and 24/35), the functional classification for the MO 21 freeway south of Hillsboro is being removed ('no plans to construct'). A temporary removal, or MoDOT permanently pulling the plug on the corridor?
What were the plans for the MO 21 freeway?
Quote from: codyg1985 on November 12, 2015, 07:16:03 AM
What were the plans for the MO 21 freeway?
There were plans to extend the freeway further south to DeSoto (not really necessary IMO, but would have been nice). I don't remember hearing of plans to convert any other parts of MO 21 to freeway.
Quote from: ModernDayWarrior on November 13, 2015, 12:13:06 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on November 12, 2015, 07:16:03 AM
What were the plans for the MO 21 freeway?
There were plans to extend the freeway further south to DeSoto (not really necessary IMO, but would have been nice). I don't remember hearing of plans to convert any other parts of MO 21 to freeway.
Some parts of 21 are really dangerous, a freeway would make sense, but with lack of funding it could just be a pipe dream.
I live in St Louis and I love the freeways here! They are consistently well maintained, not to mention wide. I will say that MO-364 is sort of crazy with its ten lanes out in Creve Coeur, and that the I-64/I-170 interchange can get out of hand with lots of traffic and not many lanes to work with. I think MoDOT focuses on things that don't really need much improvement and neglect other things.
For example, driving back from Clayton, where my father works, on SB I-170 and trying to access WB I-64, it's a nightmare. There's only three lanes (one for EB 64, one for WB 64, and one for Brentwood Blvd/Eager Rd), and people use the WB 64 exit only lane to cut in front of traffic in the EB 64 lane and cut in when there's an opening. The Brentwood Blvd/Eager Rd has one exit only lane and an option lane it shares with the WB 64 lane, so that exit has two lanes, but the traffic it gets is unjustified for the amount of lanes it has. The EB 64 exit flyover needs two lanes and the Eager Rd exit needs only one. Please MoDOT, FIX THIS!
Quote from: ModernDayWarrior on November 13, 2015, 12:13:06 AM
There were plans to extend the freeway further south to DeSoto (not really necessary IMO, but would have been nice). I don't remember hearing of plans to convert any other parts of MO 21 to freeway.
If I were them, I would route the freeway down to De Soto as planned, but then dump 21 and pick up Route 110 around the city to the north, and continue east over to Route 67 using the existing Route 110 corridor.
Quote from: wolfiefrick on December 23, 2015, 09:56:32 AM
I live in St Louis and I love the freeways here! They are consistently well maintained, not to mention wide. I will say that MO-364 is sort of crazy with its ten lanes out in Creve Coeur, and that the I-64/I-170 interchange can get out of hand with lots of traffic and not many lanes to work with. I think MoDOT focuses on things that don't really need much improvement and neglect other things.
For example, driving back from Clayton, where my father works, on SB I-170 and trying to access WB I-64, it's a nightmare. There's only three lanes (one for EB 64, one for WB 64, and one for Brentwood Blvd/Eager Rd), and people use the WB 64 exit only lane to cut in front of traffic in the EB 64 lane and cut in when there's an opening. The Brentwood Blvd/Eager Rd has one exit only lane and an option lane it shares with the WB 64 lane, so that exit has two lanes, but the traffic it gets is unjustified for the amount of lanes it has. The EB 64 exit flyover needs two lanes and the Eager Rd exit needs only one. Please MoDOT, FIX THIS!
The ramp to I-170 is only busy a couple times per day and it's not bad. Certainly not as bad as I-270. Local drivers are lucky. Drivers in Chicago, DC, LA, and several other cities would love it if that's as bad as traffic got.
The ramp to Brentwood would back up to the highway if it weren't two lanes, especially on weekends and busy shopping periods like Christmas. Finally, the ramp to Brentwood also serves Hanley. It also costs a lot more money to make a two-lane flyover ramp than a short ramp on the surface. Your comparison is irrelevant.
MoDOT has posted plans for reconfiguring the I-70 interchange with 5th Street in St. Charles into a DDI, and adding a couple ramps to Fairgrounds Road as well. It's Item F03 on MoDOT's January Letting (plans are a 99 MB pdf). (http://www.modot.org/business/contractor_resources/OpenLetting.shtml)
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 04, 2016, 10:30:18 PM
MoDOT has posted plans for reconfiguring the I-70 interchange with 5th Street in St. Charles into a DDI, and adding a couple ramps to Fairgrounds Road as well. It's Item F03 on MoDOT's January Letting (plans are a 99 MB pdf). (http://www.modot.org/business/contractor_resources/OpenLetting.shtml)
That's really cool! Right now there exists two other DDIs in Missouri: one on I-44 somewhere in Springfield was the first one to be constructed in Missouri in 2009, IIRC; and there's a relatively new one from a few years ago on I-270 at Dorsett Rd in Westport (exit 17, I think). Other than that there's no more. Can't wait to drive it!
Quote from: wolfiefrick on January 05, 2016, 10:18:21 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 04, 2016, 10:30:18 PM
MoDOT has posted plans for reconfiguring the I-70 interchange with 5th Street in St. Charles into a DDI, and adding a couple ramps to Fairgrounds Road as well. It's Item F03 on MoDOT's January Letting (plans are a 99 MB pdf). (http://www.modot.org/business/contractor_resources/OpenLetting.shtml)
That's really cool! Right now there exists two other DDIs in Missouri: one on I-44 somewhere in Springfield was the first one to be constructed in Missouri in 2009, IIRC; and there's a relatively new one from a few years ago on I-270 at Dorsett Rd in Westport (exit 17, I think). Other than that there's no more. Can't wait to drive it!
There's actually quite a few more. I can think of at least 3 in the KC area, with 4 more that will be constructed. There is one in Columbia and I think there are more in the Springfield area.
Quote from: mvak36 on January 05, 2016, 10:29:11 AM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on January 05, 2016, 10:18:21 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 04, 2016, 10:30:18 PM
MoDOT has posted plans for reconfiguring the I-70 interchange with 5th Street in St. Charles into a DDI, and adding a couple ramps to Fairgrounds Road as well. It's Item F03 on MoDOT's January Letting (plans are a 99 MB pdf). (http://www.modot.org/business/contractor_resources/OpenLetting.shtml)
That's really cool! Right now there exists two other DDIs in Missouri: one on I-44 somewhere in Springfield was the first one to be constructed in Missouri in 2009, IIRC; and there's a relatively new one from a few years ago on I-270 at Dorsett Rd in Westport (exit 17, I think). Other than that there's no more. Can't wait to drive it!
There's actually quite a few more. I can think of at least 3 in the KC area, with 4 more that will be constructed. There is one in Columbia and I think there are more in the Springfield area.
Interesting. I'll have to go there and take a look.
Quote from: wolfiefrick on January 05, 2016, 05:02:07 PM
Quote from: mvak36 on January 05, 2016, 10:29:11 AM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on January 05, 2016, 10:18:21 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 04, 2016, 10:30:18 PM
MoDOT has posted plans for reconfiguring the I-70 interchange with 5th Street in St. Charles into a DDI, and adding a couple ramps to Fairgrounds Road as well. It's Item F03 on MoDOT's January Letting (plans are a 99 MB pdf). (http://www.modot.org/business/contractor_resources/OpenLetting.shtml)
That's really cool! Right now there exists two other DDIs in Missouri: one on I-44 somewhere in Springfield was the first one to be constructed in Missouri in 2009, IIRC; and there's a relatively new one from a few years ago on I-270 at Dorsett Rd in Westport (exit 17, I think). Other than that there's no more. Can't wait to drive it!
There's actually quite a few more. I can think of at least 3 in the KC area, with 4 more that will be constructed. There is one in Columbia and I think there are more in the Springfield area.
Interesting. I'll have to go there and take a look.
Yeah, there are actually five of them in Springfield now. In addition to I-44/MO-13 (the first one built in the US), there are two on US 60 (at MO-13 North/Kansas Expressway and at National Avenue) and two on US 65 (at Battlefield Road and Chestnut Expressway). There is another one being built now just south of the city, in Ozark at US 65/MO-CC.
MoDOT has revealed plans for the MO 141 interchange with I-44. (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/documents/PressConferenceHandoutsI44.pdf) Highlights include:
* Widening the WB I-44 exit to two lanes
* Adding a flyover from SB MO 141 to EB I-44
* Adding loop ramps for the NB MO 141 to WB I-44 and WB I-44 to SB MO 141 movements, complete with a C-D roadway
* Upgrading the EB I-44 to NB MO 141 movement to have a triple left
Main problem I see with the design is that a signal remains between I-44 and the bridge over the BNSF tracks to provide access to/from the North Frontage Road west of MO 141
Additionally, MO 141 will be getting a quasi-Michigan left design north of I-44: MoDOT handout (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/documents/PressConferenceHandoutsvance.pdf)
Quote from: mvak36 on January 05, 2016, 10:29:11 AM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on January 05, 2016, 10:18:21 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 04, 2016, 10:30:18 PM
MoDOT has posted plans for reconfiguring the I-70 interchange with 5th Street in St. Charles into a DDI, and adding a couple ramps to Fairgrounds Road as well. It's Item F03 on MoDOT's January Letting (plans are a 99 MB pdf). (http://www.modot.org/business/contractor_resources/OpenLetting.shtml)
That's really cool! Right now there exists two other DDIs in Missouri: one on I-44 somewhere in Springfield was the first one to be constructed in Missouri in 2009, IIRC; and there's a relatively new one from a few years ago on I-270 at Dorsett Rd in Westport (exit 17, I think). Other than that there's no more. Can't wait to drive it!
There's actually quite a few more. I can think of at least 3 in the KC area, with 4 more that will be constructed. There is one in Columbia and I think there are more in the Springfield area.
There's actually another DDI just one city over in St. Peters at I-70 and Mid Rivers Mall Dr. It's been open for a couple years now. Along with the ones listed above, there's also one in Branson at US Hwy 65 and MO 248.
Quote from: ModernDayWarrior on January 05, 2016, 11:32:44 PM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on January 05, 2016, 05:02:07 PM
Quote from: mvak36 on January 05, 2016, 10:29:11 AM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on January 05, 2016, 10:18:21 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 04, 2016, 10:30:18 PM
MoDOT has posted plans for reconfiguring the I-70 interchange with 5th Street in St. Charles into a DDI, and adding a couple ramps to Fairgrounds Road as well. It's Item F03 on MoDOT's January Letting (plans are a 99 MB pdf). (http://www.modot.org/business/contractor_resources/OpenLetting.shtml)
That's really cool! Right now there exists two other DDIs in Missouri: one on I-44 somewhere in Springfield was the first one to be constructed in Missouri in 2009, IIRC; and there's a relatively new one from a few years ago on I-270 at Dorsett Rd in Westport (exit 17, I think). Other than that there's no more. Can't wait to drive it!
There's actually quite a few more. I can think of at least 3 in the KC area, with 4 more that will be constructed. There is one in Columbia and I think there are more in the Springfield area.
Interesting. I'll have to go there and take a look.
Yeah, there are actually five of them in Springfield now. In addition to I-44/MO-13 (the first one built in the US), there are two on US 60 (at MO-13 North/Kansas Expressway and at National Avenue) and two on US 65 (at Battlefield Road and Chestnut Expressway). There is another one being built now just south of the city, in Ozark at US 65/MO-CC.
There's one in Branson on US65 at Branson Landing Road
Are any of the St. Louis freeways or roads still flooded? If not, how bad was the damage?
Oh goody...
http://www.ksdk.com/traffic/lane-closures-near-poplar-street-bridge-begin-monday/57402741
Quote from: adt1982 on February 28, 2016, 05:02:34 PM
Oh goody...
http://www.ksdk.com/traffic/lane-closures-near-poplar-street-bridge-begin-monday/57402741 (http://www.ksdk.com/traffic/lane-closures-near-poplar-street-bridge-begin-monday/57402741)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Quote from: wolfiefrick on February 28, 2016, 07:26:53 PM
Quote from: adt1982 on February 28, 2016, 05:02:34 PM
Oh goody...
http://www.ksdk.com/traffic/lane-closures-near-poplar-street-bridge-begin-monday/57402741 (http://www.ksdk.com/traffic/lane-closures-near-poplar-street-bridge-begin-monday/57402741)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.theodysseyonline.com%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F10%2F14%2F635804283082295236202125437_anigif_optimized-30227-1427332446-2.gif&hash=e4268075fbe6e2aa7547d6fde6fbee7dda5db5c0)
Hello,
I'm going to be traveling tomorrow from Wisconsin down to Cape Girardeau. As I come into St Louis on I-55, google maps has some crazy directions right after crossing the river involving exiting onto memorial drive, then doing a u-turn and getting back onto I-44/55. Is that really necessary? Is there no easy way just to continue on I-55 south?
A quick reply would be appreciated. Thanks.
Idk if they're still doing the construction on the 2-lane flyover ramp from the Bridge to I-55 South. But if you're coming down I-55, you could just take 255 and avoid the downtown altogether.
Quote from: mahaasma on March 17, 2016, 02:44:26 PM
Hello,
I'm going to be traveling tomorrow from Wisconsin down to Cape Girardeau. As I come into St Louis on I-55, google maps has some crazy directions right after crossing the river involving exiting onto memorial drive, then doing a u-turn and getting back onto I-44/55. Is that really necessary? Is there no easy way just to continue on I-55 south?
A quick reply would be appreciated. Thanks.
Quote from: mvak36 on March 17, 2016, 04:31:35 PM
Idk if they're still doing the construction on the 2-lane flyover ramp from the Bridge to I-55 South. But if you're coming down I-55, you could just take 255 and avoid the downtown altogether.
Quote from: mahaasma on March 17, 2016, 02:44:26 PM
Hello,
I'm going to be traveling tomorrow from Wisconsin down to Cape Girardeau. As I come into St Louis on I-55, google maps has some crazy directions right after crossing the river involving exiting onto memorial drive, then doing a u-turn and getting back onto I-44/55. Is that really necessary? Is there no easy way just to continue on I-55 south?
A quick reply would be appreciated. Thanks.
Ditto that. No reason to deal with St. Louis traffic headaches.
There's a good amount of construction on the downtown interstates. Take 255, as others said, and you'll be fine.
Quote from: adt1982 on March 17, 2016, 08:28:43 PM
There's a good amount of construction on the downtown interstates. Take 255, as others said, and you'll be fine.
Yep, they're redoing all the freeways downtown because of the new Arch construction and the new bridge. Living in St. Louis, it's a headache.
The City of St. Charles is apparently studying what to do with MO 94 between MO 364 and I-70. Three of the four options include upgrading MO 94 to a freeway. The non-freeway option includes a CFI that crosses over the left turns from MO 94 at Zumbehl Road-Friedens Road. All of the options seem to include modifying the SPUI at I-70 to provide a triple left for the WB I-70 to SB MO 94 movement. Link to study. (http://www.stcharlescitymo.gov/614/94-Corridor-Study)
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 31, 2016, 10:50:52 PM
The City of St. Charles is apparently studying what to do with MO 94 between MO 364 and I-70. Three of the four options include upgrading MO 94 to a freeway. The non-freeway option includes a CFI that crosses over the left turns from MO 94 at Zumbehl Road-Friedens Road. All of the options seem to include modifying the SPUI at I-70 to provide a triple left for the WB I-70 to SB MO 94 movement. Link to study. (http://www.stcharlescitymo.gov/614/94-Corridor-Study)
If they do the freeway option, would that be something like MO364 and MO370 are currently?
Quote from: mvak36 on April 01, 2016, 09:15:22 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 31, 2016, 10:50:52 PM
The City of St. Charles is apparently studying what to do with MO 94 between MO 364 and I-70. Three of the four options include upgrading MO 94 to a freeway. The non-freeway option includes a CFI that crosses over the left turns from MO 94 at Zumbehl Road-Friedens Road. All of the options seem to include modifying the SPUI at I-70 to provide a triple left for the WB I-70 to SB MO 94 movement. Link to study. (http://www.stcharlescitymo.gov/614/94-Corridor-Study)
If they do the freeway option, would that be something like MO364 and MO370 are currently?
What I think MODOT should do is slap an Interstate designation on MO-364 (possibly I-364 or I-164), and upgrade MO-94 to a freeway in between I-70 and MO-364/possible I-x64. It's obvious that MO-364 is up to Interstate requirements, it even has exit numbers and upwards of 10 lanes in some spots!
Quote from: wolfiefrick on April 01, 2016, 08:03:43 PM
Quote from: mvak36 on April 01, 2016, 09:15:22 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 31, 2016, 10:50:52 PM
The City of St. Charles is apparently studying what to do with MO 94 between MO 364 and I-70. Three of the four options include upgrading MO 94 to a freeway. The non-freeway option includes a CFI that crosses over the left turns from MO 94 at Zumbehl Road-Friedens Road. All of the options seem to include modifying the SPUI at I-70 to provide a triple left for the WB I-70 to SB MO 94 movement. Link to study. (http://www.stcharlescitymo.gov/614/94-Corridor-Study)
If they do the freeway option, would that be something like MO364 and MO370 are currently?
What I think MODOT should do is slap an Interstate designation on MO-364 (possibly I-364 or I-164), and upgrade MO-94 to a freeway in between I-70 and MO-364/possible I-x64. It's obvious that MO-364 is up to Interstate requirements, it even has exit numbers and upwards of 10 lanes in some spots!
I know there have been reasons given, but why doesn't MoDOT just do what needs to be done to get Interstate designations for both 364 and 370? They are already up to standards, and I think it would just help to encourage traffic to use them. 370 is a convenient alternative to I-70, and it just makes sense to make it an Interstate. 364 is much the same thing for I-64.
Regarding this MO 94 freeway idea, why does it not surprise me one bit that 3 of 4 designs would be a freeway right up until a continued substandard interchange at I-70? MoDOT seems to be famous for doing this! Seriously, build a flyover at least from WB I-70 to SB 94.
Found this article that indicates more rush hour traffic is using the MO 364 bridge over the Blanchette/I-70 bridges:
http://70westsentinel.com/newsdesk/traffic-increase-on-route-364-prompts-closer-look-at-i-70-corridor/ (http://70westsentinel.com/newsdesk/traffic-increase-on-route-364-prompts-closer-look-at-i-70-corridor/)
The most recent traffic volume map from MoDOT (2015) (http://modot.org/safety/documents/2015_Traffic_SL_06212016.pdf) had MO 364's volume at the river only slightly less than that at the Boone Bridge (US 40).
There have been a couple recent rumblings from MoDOT in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch that the PSB will need replacement in 30 years, with one of the recent road crew chats indicating planning may start in 10 years.
If you guys don't mind, I'm gonna attach myself to this thread (regardless of how heavily it's used). I lived in St Louis, off and on, for about three years starting in 2009. My father was stationed at Scott AFB, and we lived downtown near the Culinaria (great store btw). I got a pretty good idea of what the area was like, so, without further ado...
Road observations...
The 64 was one the nicest freeways that I've ever driven. Only thing to come close is the rebuilt 520 freeway here in Seattle (which uses asphalt).
The 70 between the airport and downtown was not the greatest -- it was where we usually saw congestion, and the surface wasn't in the greatest shape
The connection between the 64 and 170 freeways was outstanding, especially compared to what it replaced
STL county seemed to have far worse roads than the suburbs. They just weren't taken care of at all.
General observations...
I have never seen so many malls in my life. Our favorite was the Galleria (also closest to our apartment), but I also liked West County a lot
I walked into the Frontenac mall a couple times, and I felt like people were staring us down for wearing inferior brands or something
We don't have Wehrenberg Theatres back in Seattle, so the "wehrenBEEERRG" intro always made us laugh (waaayy over the top) (our favorite theater was the AMC at Chesterfield)
Ted Drewes Custard and Pappy's Smokehouse were two of our favorite eateries
The area gave me my first taste of both Five Guys and Buffalo Wild Wings (neither existed in Seattle before 2011)
The weather/humidity+dew point/temperature was a complete change from Seattle. That took some getting used to, but it was cool after a while (not literally -- it was outrageously hot all the time)
Quote from: jakeroot on January 18, 2017, 07:23:19 PM
I have never seen so many malls in my life. Our favorite was the Galleria (also closest to our apartment), but I also liked West County a lot
I walked into the Frontenac mall a couple times, and I felt like people were staring us down for wearing inferior brands or something
I think you were there after the better times for the malls, before Crestwood and St. Louis Mills starting dying. Now I here the Chesterfield Mall is spiraling towards death as well.
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 18, 2017, 10:02:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 18, 2017, 07:23:19 PM
I have never seen so many malls in my life. Our favorite was the Galleria (also closest to our apartment), but I also liked West County a lot
I walked into the Frontenac mall a couple times, and I felt like people were staring us down for wearing inferior brands or something
I think you were there after the better times for the malls, before Crestwood and St. Louis Mills starting dying. Now I here the Chesterfield Mall is spiraling towards death as well.
Never got involved with Crestwood (I think it was already dead). I remember walking through the mills, surprised by all the independent shops, thinking that a mall of this magnitude really ought to have more well-known brands. Myself, my father, and my sister did the go-kart Nascar circuit thing (apparently now closed) and I remember seeing the Blues training centre as well.
I never spent much time
inside Chesterfield (mostly just went there because we like AMC), but certainly its proximity to that Commons shopping area might make competition stiff (if not lethal).
Quote from: mahaasma on March 17, 2016, 02:44:26 PM
Hello,
I'm going to be traveling tomorrow from Wisconsin down to Cape Girardeau. As I come into St Louis on I-55, google maps has some crazy directions right after crossing the river involving exiting onto memorial drive, then doing a u-turn and getting back onto I-44/55. Is that really necessary? Is there no easy way just to continue on I-55 south?
A quick reply would be appreciated. Thanks.
As a guy who lives down in Cape Girardeau, try to avoid K highway, it is a mass commercial mess during the week days.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 18, 2017, 07:23:19 PM
The 64
The 70
the 64 and 170 freeways
That's West Coast talk! :-D
MoDOT has completed the Environmental Assessment for I-270 from I-70 to the Chain of Rocks Bridge. Link. (http://modot.mo.gov/stlouis/I-270North.htm) Highlights from Highlights from the preferred alternative: (http://modot.mo.gov/stlouis/documents/I-270N_EA-Preferred_Alternative_Maps.pdf)
* St. Charles Rock Road and McDonald Road become DDI's
* The US 67/Lindbergh interchange becomes a nasty looking partial cloverleaf with two-way connections to the outer roads across from the I-270 exits
* The outer roads appear to become one-way between Hanley Road and Old Halls Ferry Road
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 21, 2017, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 18, 2017, 07:23:19 PM
The 64
The 70
the 64 and 170 freeways
That's West Coast talk! :-D
Yeah, everyone knows "the 64" is really called Highway Farty.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 24, 2017, 02:52:54 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 21, 2017, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 18, 2017, 07:23:19 PM
The 64
The 70
the 64 and 170 freeways
That's West Coast talk! :-D
Yeah, everyone knows "the 64" is really called Highway Farty.
Farty? That sounds more "imitation" Irish -- or even Bostonian -- than anything from StL! :-P
Quote from: sparker on January 25, 2017, 06:15:00 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 24, 2017, 02:52:54 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 21, 2017, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 18, 2017, 07:23:19 PM
The 64
The 70
the 64 and 170 freeways
That's West Coast talk! :-D
Yeah, everyone knows "the 64" is really called Highway Farty.
Farty? That sounds more "imitation" Irish -- or even Bostonian -- than anything from StL! :-P
It's strange but true. I've lived here most of the last 30 years. It's mostly older white people who say it. They also say "warsh" for wash.
Quote from: skluth on February 06, 2017, 02:20:55 AM
Quote from: sparker on January 25, 2017, 06:15:00 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 24, 2017, 02:52:54 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 21, 2017, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 18, 2017, 07:23:19 PM
The 64
The 70
the 64 and 170 freeways
That's West Coast talk! :-D
Yeah, everyone knows "the 64" is really called Highway Farty.
Farty? That sounds more "imitation" Irish -- or even Bostonian -- than anything from StL! :-P
It's strange but true. I've lived here most of the last 30 years. It's mostly older white people who say it. They also say "warsh" for wash.
Many of my St. Louis-based relatives (who certainly fit the description of "older white people")
do say
warsh when referring to wash -- but the only time I've heard "40" vocalized, it's been "fordy" with a slightly rolling "R". Interestingly, a buddy who hails from Ottawa, Ontario,
does pronounce 40 as "farty" -- the sole time that's been the case outside of New England!
Quote from: ModernDayWarrior on November 13, 2015, 12:13:06 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on November 12, 2015, 07:16:03 AM
What were the plans for the MO 21 freeway?
There were plans to extend the freeway further south to DeSoto (not really necessary IMO, but would have been nice). I don't remember hearing of plans to convert any other parts of MO 21 to freeway.
I doubt it's gonna happen, if they plan on making it a freeway following it's present route would be pretty damn dangerous. Too many winding curves an mountains. Also lack of funding, and driveways.
^ The freeway was to be a new but parallel to the existing alignment, see http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/documents/MapofRoute21CorridorProjects.pdf (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/major_projects/documents/MapofRoute21CorridorProjects.pdf).
So yeah. Reminded of MO755 by the "Worst Freeway Designs" thread. So I'm researching that now.
I have already found an interesting article. Lessons Learned from Route 755 (http://gumbully.com/blog/2014/11/27/lessons-learned-from-route-755)
Anyone know what they're doing at MO 141 and I-44?
Quote from: JMoses24 on May 26, 2017, 07:52:15 PM
Anyone know what they're doing at MO 141 and I-44?
Adding In a flyover ramp NB to eb.
http://www.modot.org/Route141/
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.modot.org%2Fstlouis%2Fmajor_projects%2Fimages%2F141_InterchangeMap_60x36REVISEDpdf.jpg&hash=5120e6e4302a8c3ab0acdeaa8397b23c464f0a6c)
Quote from: intelati49 on May 26, 2017, 09:44:22 PM
Quote from: JMoses24 on May 26, 2017, 07:52:15 PM
Anyone know what they're doing at MO 141 and I-44?
Adding In a flyover ramp NB to eb.
http://www.modot.org/Route141/
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.modot.org%2Fstlouis%2Fmajor_projects%2Fimages%2F141_InterchangeMap_60x36REVISEDpdf.jpg&hash=5120e6e4302a8c3ab0acdeaa8397b23c464f0a6c)
Thanks! When I went through Friday night, I saw the steel beams over I-44 and it got my curiosity. I do wonder why, as part of the work on the interchange, they aren't building a bridge to re-route MO 141 over top of 44, as opposed to underneath.
Quote from: JMoses24 on May 29, 2017, 01:43:05 AM
Quote from: intelati49 on May 26, 2017, 09:44:22 PM
Quote from: JMoses24 on May 26, 2017, 07:52:15 PM
Anyone know what they're doing at MO 141 and I-44?
Adding In a flyover ramp NB to eb.
http://www.modot.org/Route141/
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.modot.org%2Fstlouis%2Fmajor_projects%2Fimages%2F141_InterchangeMap_60x36REVISEDpdf.jpg&hash=5120e6e4302a8c3ab0acdeaa8397b23c464f0a6c)
Thanks! When I went through Friday night, I saw the steel beams over I-44 and it got my curiosity. I do wonder why, as part of the work on the interchange, they aren't building a bridge to re-route MO 141 over top of 44, as opposed to underneath.
$$$ I was on the winning design team for this project. The budget just wasn't enough to improve the congestion and raise 141. The total project budget was only $25 million.
Quote from: kcajl on June 01, 2017, 12:19:20 PM
$$$ I was on the winning design team for this project. The budget just wasn't enough to improve the congestion and raise 141. The total project budget was only $25 million.
That's cool. In what capacity are you involved on the design team? (I'm. Civil Engineering Student)
Page IR 66 from one of the EIS's for I-255 (https://books.google.com/books?id=1pU1AQAAMAAJ&dq=fai%20255%20eis&pg=SL252-PA66#v=onepage&q=fai%20255%20eis&f=false) has a nice map of the St. Louis region back when the Page Avenue Freeway would have gone much further inside of the I-270/I-255 loop and would have had a western terminus around the I-70/MO 79 interchange. The map also has the earlier, non-freeway version of MO 370 with a southward extension that would have crossed back over the Missouri River.
One of the EIS's for MO 755 has been made available by Google (https://books.google.com/books?id=zMw1AQAAMAAJ&dq=MO%20755%20eis&pg=SA3-PA17#v=onepage&q=MO%20755%20eis&f=false). Page 3-17 has I-44 going east of the southern I-55 interchange prior to the recent construction of the new I-70 bridge.
MoDOT is no longer signing Business 55 at Exit 178 in Herculaneum: Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2604183,-90.4026968,3a,75y,173.98h,80.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNcwTZdaqiG9rNOZrT39Gzg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en). It's still signed at the US 67 interchange. Something to do with a jurisdictional transfer of McNutt Street, or signs that this loop will be fully removed?
If I-70 was the Mark Twain Expressway, 64/40 the Daniel Boone Expressway, and 55 the Ozark Expressway; what was I-44? You'd think 44 would be the Ozark because it goes, well, into the Ozarks. Seems like no one in the STL area calls the interstates by their expressway names (unless it's I-64 in that case it's 40, or Hwy Farty.) I still remember when you hit the Daniel Boone Bridge and 64 just ended. The St. Chuck side of the river had rolling terrain, in fact you had to go over I think three small hills just west of the bridge. Those are gone now. The pavement on 40/61 near Wentzville was a mix of concrete and asphalt. The traffic lights were a pain in the damn ass.
Quote from: CapeCodder on January 17, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
If I-70 was the Mark Twain Expressway, 64/40 the Daniel Boone Expressway, and 55 the Ozark Expressway; what was I-44? You'd think 44 would be the Ozark because it goes, well, into the Ozarks.
In the 1951 plan, the Ozark Expressway was a combination of today's I-55 (with some adjustments) and a route running from I-55 south of the Reavis Barracks interchange westward to today's MO 366/Watson Road east of US 61/67/US 50/Lindbergh. The section of highway connecting the Ozark to US 61 was simply called the "US 61 Connector". I'm guessing having the Reavis Barracks - Watson route morph into today's I-270 alignment had something to do with I-55 keeping the Ozark designation.
When more serious consideration was given to building I-44 along its present route, I don't recall seeing any other names used than variants of "I-44".
This was commented on back in 2014 on page 5 of this thread...
But I find it amazing the I-70 Reversible lanes in/out of Downtown do not have access to the Stan Musial Bridge/Thru I-70. And beyond that, there is no signage, at all, when heading Inbound from the Airport that Thru I-70 Traffic to IL cannot use the Express lanes.
The only signage is "Express Lanes Open. Downtown" or something very similar
I believe the Reversible Expres Lanes predate the new bridge, but come on, that should seriously be signed on the BGSs approaching the Express Inbound, especially for out of town traffic that just rented a car @ Lambert.
It is reasonable to expect Express Lanes to have access to the Designated Highway Thru Traffic, and if it does not, it needs to be signed appropriately. In this case, it needs to be signed as an early exit for I-44, and clearly signed for no Stan Musial or Poplar Street (Interstate) Bridge access. There is access to the non-Interstate/Freeway Eads and MLK Bridges
I have noticed this just a few times driving back to SoIL from Lambert. I am now familiar with the setup, but the lack of signing still strikes me as odd and poor. Just drove it again last night. First time I drove it after moving to SoIL, I ended up having to use the Eads or MLK Bridge (don't remember which) to cross the River
Quote from: ilpt4u on January 23, 2018, 03:45:03 PM
This was commented on back in 2014 on page 5 of this thread...
But I find it amazing the I-70 Reversible lanes in/out of Downtown do not have access to the Stan Musial Bridge/Thru I-70. And beyond that, there is no signage, at all, when heading Inbound from the Airport that Thru I-70 Traffic to IL cannot use the Express lanes.
The only signage is "Express Lanes Open. Downtown" or something very similar
I believe the Reversible Expres Lanes predate the new bridge, but come on, that should seriously be signed on the BGSs approaching the Express Inbound, especially for out of town traffic that just rented a car @ Lambert.
It is reasonable to expect Express Lanes to have access to the Designated Highway Thru Traffic, and if it does not, it needs to be signed appropriately. In this case, it needs to be signed as an early exit for I-44, and clearly signed for no Stan Musial or Poplar Street (Interstate) Bridge access. There is access to the non-Interstate/Freeway Eads and MLK Bridges
I have noticed this just a few times driving back to SoIL from Lambert. I am now familiar with the setup, but the lack of signing still strikes me as odd and poor. Just drove it again last night. First time I drove it after moving to SoIL, I ended up having to use the Eads or MLK Bridge (don't remember which) to cross the River
The I-95 express lanes north of Baltimore do not allow connections to/from the I-695 Beltway. But there are excellent signs alerting drivers of that fact:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3915847,-76.4361928,3a,75y,215.26h,90.56t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLtgbprFKTesA-uKGjWs0Ig!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DLtgbprFKTesA-uKGjWs0Ig%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D300.50766%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
And it is a shock that you can't access those bridges as you used to be able to access the Poplar Street from I-70 prior to the building of the Stan. You're right, this should be highlighted that the express lanes allow you to access Downtown streets, 55 Memphis, or 44 Tulsa, but not directly to the freeways to Illinois.
Someone shoot MoDOT an email and see what they say.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 24, 2018, 05:29:08 AM
Someone shoot MoDOT an email and see what they say.
I used their "Report a Road Concern" web form and submitted a signage concern for the Inbound I-70 Express/Local split
I am interest to see if 1) I even get a response and 2) What said response is
If you don't get a response, see if you can dig up an email for the St. Louis district office. They should bounce it over to the correct person.
Can someone in the know compile a list of all the freeway projects in STL metro? I really like STL freeways. I sure hope when the time comes, they keep the double stack and perhaps even expand it. I fear it will be torn down however.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2018, 10:34:41 AM
Can someone in the know compile a list of all the freeway projects in STL metro? I really like STL freeways. I sure hope when the time comes, they keep the double stack and perhaps even expand it. I fear it will be torn down however.
Missouri projects are at http://www.modot.org/plansandprojects/index.htm
Illinois IDOT projects are at http://www.idot.illinois.gov/transportation-system/transportation-management/featured-projects/index
I don't know of any STL-specific sites
Quote from: skluth on March 24, 2018, 04:00:25 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2018, 10:34:41 AM
Can someone in the know compile a list of all the freeway projects in STL metro? I really like STL freeways. I sure hope when the time comes, they keep the double stack and perhaps even expand it. I fear it will be torn down however.
Missouri projects are at http://www.modot.org/plansandprojects/index.htm
Illinois IDOT projects are at http://www.idot.illinois.gov/transportation-system/transportation-management/featured-projects/index
I don't know of any STL-specific sites
You might be able to find some stuff at http://www.modot.org/stlouis/
iPhone
The ramp from northbound MO-141 to westbound I-44 opened last Friday. The much-awaited (and needed) flyover ramp from southbound MO-141 to eastbound I-44 opens in a couple weeks.
http://www.kmov.com/story/38051893/modot-to-open-first-stage-of-new-141i-44-interchange-this-week
FENTON (KMOV.com) -
I-44 drivers who use northbound Route 141 during their commute will soon see improvements in their commute time.
MoDOT crews will open a new loop ramp from northbound Route 141 to westbound I-44 by 3 p.m. Friday, April 27.
This will be the first of several changes coming to the interchange as part of continuing work to improve the flow of traffic around the area. MoDOT says in two weeks, the flyover ramp from southbound Route 141 to eastbound I-44 will open.
MoDOT is asking drivers to who use the interchange daily to slow down and pay attention for the next several weeks to get used to the new traffic patterns in the area.
Quote from: ilpt4u on January 24, 2018, 07:22:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 24, 2018, 05:29:08 AM
Someone shoot MoDOT an email and see what they say.
I used their "Report a Road Concern" web form and submitted a signage concern for the Inbound I-70 Express/Local split
I am interest to see if 1) I even get a response and 2) What said response is
The St Louis Post Dispatch's website at stltoday.com hosts weekly transportation chats early Wednesday afternoons. The panel usually includes one person each from St Louis City, St Louis County, and MoDOT.
I put together a video of Highway 364 from a visit last summer. I did a freeway tour of Saint Louis last July, and I really enjoyed some of the roads, particularly Highway 364:
Nice video of MO-364.
I remember my brother lived on Bennington Place right next to the ramp when the " Olive Blvd. Extension" was still in planning.
I will have you know that once this road got defunded and MoDOT began to sell off the ROW west of Bennington. Developers bought it up and built subdivisions.
Then less than 4 years after the houses were built, MoDOT came into a large earmark and changed their mind on MO-364. They had to go back and repurchase all the ROW they had released. It was very expensive!!
My brother said the politics in West StL County were pretty vocal about getting the road built. The people on Olive east of I-270 were not pleased that a 6 lane highway was going to dump unto a 4 lane urban arterial.
The Missouri bridges are really nice.
Made a video this morning of the new flyover ramp from SB MO 141 to EB I-44 in Valley Park MO. I don't have a stand, so it's a bit jerky from holding my phone. They should be opening the two cloverleaf ramps soon. Audio is from a Nerdist podcast with David Tennant guesting. Sorry if you're not a fan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0MbrOvW--4
Quote from: edwaleni on May 20, 2018, 08:32:37 PM
Nice video of MO-364.
I remember my brother lived on Bennington Place right next to the ramp when the " Olive Blvd. Extension" was still in planning.
Thanks for the history. It's actually the Page Avenue extension (next exit north), but that's a minor quibble.
Quote from: skluth on May 22, 2018, 02:18:26 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on May 20, 2018, 08:32:37 PM
Nice video of MO-364.
I remember my brother lived on Bennington Place right next to the ramp when the " Olive Blvd. Extension" was still in planning.
Thanks for the history. It's actually the Page Avenue extension (next exit north), but that's a minor quibble.
Thanks for the correction. I realized my error a few hours later but didnt make the edit.
It is the Page Extension, not the Olive.
MoDOT has posted exhibts from a recent meeting on a new study of I-70 from the US 61 interchange in Wentzville to the new river bridge near downtwn St. Louis. (http://www.envision70.com/public-meetings.php)
I thought MoDOT replaced most of the bridges along I-70 east of the St. Louis City Limit about 15 years ago?
Quote from: mvak36 on March 24, 2018, 05:55:05 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 24, 2018, 04:00:25 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 31, 2018, 10:34:41 AM
Can someone in the know compile a list of all the freeway projects in STL metro? I really like STL freeways. I sure hope when the time comes, they keep the double stack and perhaps even expand it. I fear it will be torn down however.
Missouri projects are at http://www.modot.org/plansandprojects/index.htm
Illinois IDOT projects are at http://www.idot.illinois.gov/transportation-system/transportation-management/featured-projects/index
I don't know of any STL-specific sites
You might be able to find some stuff at http://www.modot.org/stlouis/
iPhone
Just saw these. Thank you for the links.
There is an interchange project along I-64 just west of Union Station, currently entering Final Design, that will spell doom for the freeway stub at Exit 39. Current plans show a compact diamond at 22nd with an extension through Jefferson Ave., also removing the Market/Ewing ramps. While this design could change, the effect of killing off the old remnant of MO 755 (https://www.aaroads.com/guides/mo-755/) is unlikely to. It had a good 50-year run.
Quote from: Alps on December 27, 2018, 09:38:23 AM
There is an interchange project along I-64 just west of Union Station, currently entering Final Design, that will spell doom for the freeway stub at Exit 39. Current plans show a compact diamond at 22nd with an extension through Jefferson Ave., also removing the Market/Ewing ramps. While this design could change, the effect of killing off the old remnant of MO 755 (https://www.aaroads.com/guides/mo-755/) is unlikely to. It had a good 50-year run.
The only question is:
will Revive 755 survive? (hey, at least it all rhymes!)
Quote from: sparker on December 27, 2018, 08:51:17 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 27, 2018, 09:38:23 AM
There is an interchange project along I-64 just west of Union Station, currently entering Final Design, that will spell doom for the freeway stub at Exit 39. Current plans show a compact diamond at 22nd with an extension through Jefferson Ave., also removing the Market/Ewing ramps. While this design could change, the effect of killing off the old remnant of MO 755 (https://www.aaroads.com/guides/mo-755/) is unlikely to. It had a good 50-year run.
The only question is: will Revive 755 survive? (hey, at least it all rhymes!)
Nah, I'll change my username to 'The Lost Cause' :spin:
I don't see the need for a full interchange at 22nd. Jefferson is much more deserving for a full interchange IMHO - it has better continuity, and could be used as an alternative route to WB I-44 in case a truck overturns on the ramp to WB I-44/SB I-55 from the PSB.
WB I-255 over the Mississippi River is closed through at least the end of the week due to a cracked beam.
https://www.modot.org/node/8164 (https://www.modot.org/node/8164)
https://www.modot.org/node/8177 (https://www.modot.org/node/8177)
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 13, 2019, 10:34:42 PM
WB I-255 over the Mississippi River is closed through at least the end of the week due to a cracked beam.
https://www.modot.org/node/8164 (https://www.modot.org/node/8164)
https://www.modot.org/node/8177 (https://www.modot.org/node/8177)
IL-3 North to the Poplar St Bridge/I-55/64 is the recommended alternate River crossing, but MoDOT advises considering any alternate bridge
There are also the Chester and Cape Girardeau Bridges, for Downriver Southern IL traffic that might typically use IL 3 to utilize the Jefferson Barracks Bridge WB to reach MO
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/modot-doesn-t-yet-know-when-or-if-westbound-jefferson/article_469b54f0-9044-5275-99d9-115415b20fcf.html#tracking-source=home-top-story
Not good news for the Westbound bridge...The tests are awaiting full results, but apparently MoDOT is already considering ultimately routing WB traffic on the EB bridge
Interesting how on the Missouri side there appears to already be enough pavement to have a crossover (Streetview (https://goo.gl/maps/ZWUnkWAEW2DZt6Hi8), but there is nothing similar on the Illinois side.
If the westbound bridge faults require on longish-term closure to correct, will MoDOT and IDOT attempt to go 2 lanes, each direction, on the eastbound bridge?
There would be no shoulders, but there appears to be close to enough concrete surface to squeeze it in, maybe...Might have to make it slightly narrow lanes as well
Jefferson Barracks Bridges.
From Bridgehunter.com
Westbound bridge built 1984; eastbound bridge built 1990
Inspection report (as of May 2015)
Overall condition: Fair
Superstructure condition rating: Good (7 out of 9)
Substructure condition rating: Fair (5 out of 9)
Deck condition rating: Satisfactory (6 out of 9)
Sufficiency rating: 79.5 (out of 100)
Scour condition: Bridge is scour critical; bridge foundations determined to be unstable.
http://bridgereports.com/1276128 (http://bridgereports.com/1276128)
I am not a bridge engineer, but if the foundations are in bad shape, the first thing you see is stress cracks up above.
Kind of like a sinking foundation of a house, the house stays together, but cracks start forming above the doors first.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/illinois/two-lanes-of-closed-jefferson-barracks-bridge-will-reopen-for/article_678e3dbc-c1dc-5c34-b52e-ac1623de149c.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
Short version: 2 Westbound lanes will be open on the WB bridge during weekday morning rush hours (5 am-10 am), and 1 Westbound lane other times. Oversize and Overweight loads will be prohibited, until repairs can be completed
Quote from: ilpt4u on May 16, 2019, 05:11:35 PM
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/illinois/two-lanes-of-closed-jefferson-barracks-bridge-will-reopen-for/article_678e3dbc-c1dc-5c34-b52e-ac1623de149c.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
Short version: 2 Westbound lanes will be open on the WB bridge during weekday morning rush hours (5 am-10 am), and 1 Westbound lane other times. Oversize and Overweight loads will be prohibited, until repairs can be completed
Lets hope there isn't anything higher than a 4.0 from the New Madrid for now.
MoDOT has the virtual public meeting for the I-270 rebuild through north St. Louis County online. Link to main project website (http://www.i270north.org/).
Going off of the video: The redesign for I-270 at MO 367, currently a cloverleaf, is changed to have the left turn movements from 367 to enter I-270 signalized. So an interchange with three legs being freeways will require going through two signals for one of the freeway to freeway movements. :banghead: :banghead:
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 14, 2020, 06:13:04 PM
MoDOT has the virtual public meeting for the I-270 rebuild through north St. Louis County online. Link to main project website (http://www.i270north.org/).
Going off of the video: The redesign for I-270 at MO 367, currently a cloverleaf, is changed to have the left turn movements from 367 to enter I-270 signalized. So an interchange with three legs being freeways will require going through two signals for one of the freeway to freeway movements. :banghead: :banghead:
I guess MoDOT didn't learn from the I-170 and I-64/US 40 Interchange mistake that required signalized movements for a long time until 64-40 was completely rebuilt about a decade or so ago and flyovers were built for the Freeway-to-Freeway movements
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 15, 2020, 02:02:44 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 14, 2020, 06:13:04 PM
MoDOT has the virtual public meeting for the I-270 rebuild through north St. Louis County online. Link to main project website (http://www.i270north.org/).
Going off of the video: The redesign for I-270 at MO 367, currently a cloverleaf, is changed to have the left turn movements from 367 to enter I-270 signalized. So an interchange with three legs being freeways will require going through two signals for one of the freeway to freeway movements. :banghead: :banghead:
I guess MoDOT didn't learn from the I-170 and I-64/US 40 Interchange mistake that required signalized movements for a long time until 64-40 was completely rebuilt about a decade or so ago and flyovers were built for the Freeway-to-Freeway movements
You're confusing the designs for the US 67 and MO 367 interchanges (http://www.i270north.org/pdfs/public-hearing_03-12-2020/overall_public_meeting_boards_0320.pdf). The signalized interchange is the US 67 (North Lindbergh) interchange, changing from its bastardized cloverleaf to a design I don't remember seeing exactly anywhere else. MO 367 will have a much-needed flyover ramp from EB I-270 to NB 367; the other two cloverleafs for entering I-270 are replaced by signalized left turns and the EB exit to Lewis and Clark will retain its cloverleaf. The signalized intersection isn't a big deal for the EB ramp, but the westbound ramp will be the first stoplight on SB MO 367 south of the Missouri River. The potential for deadly accidents here is appalling.
Edit: I misread your post. You are right in that there will be two signals traversed going from MO 367 to I-270 EB. My mistake.
They call the new Lindbergh interchange innovative. I realize it's a difficult interchange to configure. But there's plenty of room to come up with something innovative that doesn't involve
five signalized intersections in one interchange.
A little clarification. The top image is the I-270 at US 67 (Lindbergh Blvd) proposal. The bottom image is I-270 at MO 367 (Louis and Clark Blvd). Can't believe you'd have to go through four signals from SB US 67 to EB I-270.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.i270north.org%2Fimages%2Fpublic-hearing_03-12-2020%2Fenhanced_public_meeting_boards_0320.jpg&hash=79503a4056a35a438f45e643612adc83555ad552)
Quote from: skluth on March 15, 2020, 07:17:49 PM
The signalized interchange is the US 67 (North Lindbergh) interchange, changing from its bastardized cloverleaf to a design I don't remember seeing exactly anywhere else.
Looking at the photo there, it's the type of interchange Kurumi described as a "volleyball" -
https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html
The example that comes to mind that I remember from my younger years is AB 2 at TCH 1 in Calgary:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Calgary,+AB,+Canada/@51.0659603,-114.0340124,16.04z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x537170039f843fd5:0x266d3bb1b652b63a!8m2!3d51.0447331!4d-114.0718831
Quote from: TheStranger on March 16, 2020, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 15, 2020, 07:17:49 PM
The signalized interchange is the US 67 (North Lindbergh) interchange, changing from its bastardized cloverleaf to a design I don't remember seeing exactly anywhere else.
Looking at the photo there, it's the type of interchange Kurumi described as a "volleyball" -
https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html
The example that comes to mind that I remember from my younger years is AB 2 at TCH 1 in Calgary:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Calgary,+AB,+Canada/@51.0659603,-114.0340124,16.04z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x537170039f843fd5:0x266d3bb1b652b63a!8m2!3d51.0447331!4d-114.0718831
Looks like they could put in a Lindbergh flyover at a later date.
Quote from: TheStranger on March 16, 2020, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 15, 2020, 07:17:49 PM
The signalized interchange is the US 67 (North Lindbergh) interchange, changing from its bastardized cloverleaf to a design I don't remember seeing exactly anywhere else.
Looking at the photo there, it's the type of interchange Kurumi described as a "volleyball" -
https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html
The example that comes to mind that I remember from my younger years is AB 2 at TCH 1 in Calgary:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Calgary,+AB,+Canada/@51.0659603,-114.0340124,16.04z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x537170039f843fd5:0x266d3bb1b652b63a!8m2!3d51.0447331!4d-114.0718831
I didn't know that interchange type was called a volleyball. Thanks. I have seen a couple regular volleyballs before. There's another west of Milwaukee at I-41/ WI 190 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0888256,-88.0571739,18.14z?hl=en) that's existed since at least the 1970's. I think the original US 54/63 interchange in Jeff City was also like that. It's the Dunn Road addition to the interchange that changes it. The addition of a light on SB Lindbergh at Dunn Road where there was none before adds a complexity to the interchange which makes it unique from my perspective. I'm no longer in the area so I won't hear about the inevitable backups on SB Lindbergh over the radio that I'm sure this light will create.
Based on the latest long-range transportation plan for the St. Louis region, it looks like MoDOT is planning for a replacement of the Martin Luther King Bridge fairly soon - see Page 39 (43 of 58) of https://www.ewgateway.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Connected2045-FinalDraft-082819.pdf (https://www.ewgateway.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Connected2045-FinalDraft-082819.pdf).
Quote from: skluth on March 18, 2020, 06:24:14 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on March 16, 2020, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 15, 2020, 07:17:49 PM
The signalized interchange is the US 67 (North Lindbergh) interchange, changing from its bastardized cloverleaf to a design I don't remember seeing exactly anywhere else.
Looking at the photo there, it's the type of interchange Kurumi described as a "volleyball" -
https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html
The example that comes to mind that I remember from my younger years is AB 2 at TCH 1 in Calgary:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Calgary,+AB,+Canada/@51.0659603,-114.0340124,16.04z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x537170039f843fd5:0x266d3bb1b652b63a!8m2!3d51.0447331!4d-114.0718831
I didn't know that interchange type was called a volleyball. Thanks. I have seen a couple regular volleyballs before. There's another west of Milwaukee at I-41/ WI 190 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0888256,-88.0571739,18.14z?hl=en) that's existed since at least the 1970's. I think the original US 54/63 interchange in Jeff City was also like that. It's the Dunn Road addition to the interchange that changes it. The addition of a light on SB Lindbergh at Dunn Road where there was none before adds a complexity to the interchange which makes it unique from my perspective. I'm no longer in the area so I won't hear about the inevitable backups on SB Lindbergh over the radio that I'm sure this light will create.
There are two volleyball interchanges in Pennsylvania, one west of Philadelphia (between I-476 and US 1) and one west of Pittsburgh (between PA 576 and US 22). Both between two freeways.
How I hate them.
Quote from: qguy on August 18, 2020, 10:57:45 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 18, 2020, 06:24:14 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on March 16, 2020, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 15, 2020, 07:17:49 PM
The signalized interchange is the US 67 (North Lindbergh) interchange, changing from its bastardized cloverleaf to a design I don't remember seeing exactly anywhere else.
Looking at the photo there, it's the type of interchange Kurumi described as a "volleyball" -
https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html
The example that comes to mind that I remember from my younger years is AB 2 at TCH 1 in Calgary:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Calgary,+AB,+Canada/@51.0659603,-114.0340124,16.04z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x537170039f843fd5:0x266d3bb1b652b63a!8m2!3d51.0447331!4d-114.0718831
I didn't know that interchange type was called a volleyball. Thanks. I have seen a couple regular volleyballs before. There's another west of Milwaukee at I-41/ WI 190 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0888256,-88.0571739,18.14z?hl=en) that's existed since at least the 1970's. I think the original US 54/63 interchange in Jeff City was also like that. It's the Dunn Road addition to the interchange that changes it. The addition of a light on SB Lindbergh at Dunn Road where there was none before adds a complexity to the interchange which makes it unique from my perspective. I'm no longer in the area so I won't hear about the inevitable backups on SB Lindbergh over the radio that I'm sure this light will create.
There are two volleyball interchanges in Pennsylvania, one west of Philadelphia (between I-476 and US 1) and one west of Pittsburgh (between PA 576 and US 22). Both between two freeways.
How I hate them.
There's already one of these in Missouri (https://www.google.pl/maps/@38.1558502,-92.6139701,1525m/data=!3m1!1e3/), down by Lake of the Ozarks and put in around 2010.
Quote from: STLmapboy on August 20, 2020, 08:26:05 PM
Quote from: qguy on August 18, 2020, 10:57:45 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 18, 2020, 06:24:14 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on March 16, 2020, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 15, 2020, 07:17:49 PM
The signalized interchange is the US 67 (North Lindbergh) interchange, changing from its bastardized cloverleaf to a design I don't remember seeing exactly anywhere else.
Looking at the photo there, it's the type of interchange Kurumi described as a "volleyball" -
https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html
The example that comes to mind that I remember from my younger years is AB 2 at TCH 1 in Calgary:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Calgary,+AB,+Canada/@51.0659603,-114.0340124,16.04z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x537170039f843fd5:0x266d3bb1b652b63a!8m2!3d51.0447331!4d-114.0718831
I didn't know that interchange type was called a volleyball. Thanks. I have seen a couple regular volleyballs before. There's another west of Milwaukee at I-41/ WI 190 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0888256,-88.0571739,18.14z?hl=en) that's existed since at least the 1970's. I think the original US 54/63 interchange in Jeff City was also like that. It's the Dunn Road addition to the interchange that changes it. The addition of a light on SB Lindbergh at Dunn Road where there was none before adds a complexity to the interchange which makes it unique from my perspective. I'm no longer in the area so I won't hear about the inevitable backups on SB Lindbergh over the radio that I'm sure this light will create.
There are two volleyball interchanges in Pennsylvania, one west of Philadelphia (between I-476 and US 1) and one west of Pittsburgh (between PA 576 and US 22). Both between two freeways.
How I hate them.
There's already one of these in Missouri (https://www.google.pl/maps/@38.1558502,-92.6139701,1525m/data=!3m1!1e3/), down by Lake of the Ozarks and put in around 2010.
I don't mind them at all for local-access interchanges. What I dislike is when they connect two freeways, because they're not free-flowing.
Quote from: qguy on August 18, 2020, 10:57:45 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 18, 2020, 06:24:14 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on March 16, 2020, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 15, 2020, 07:17:49 PM
The signalized interchange is the US 67 (North Lindbergh) interchange, changing from its bastardized cloverleaf to a design I don't remember seeing exactly anywhere else.
Looking at the photo there, it's the type of interchange Kurumi described as a "volleyball" -
https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html
The example that comes to mind that I remember from my younger years is AB 2 at TCH 1 in Calgary:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Calgary,+AB,+Canada/@51.0659603,-114.0340124,16.04z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x537170039f843fd5:0x266d3bb1b652b63a!8m2!3d51.0447331!4d-114.0718831
I didn't know that interchange type was called a volleyball. Thanks. I have seen a couple regular volleyballs before. There's another west of Milwaukee at I-41/ WI 190 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0888256,-88.0571739,18.14z?hl=en) that's existed since at least the 1970's. I think the original US 54/63 interchange in Jeff City was also like that. It's the Dunn Road addition to the interchange that changes it. The addition of a light on SB Lindbergh at Dunn Road where there was none before adds a complexity to the interchange which makes it unique from my perspective. I'm no longer in the area so I won't hear about the inevitable backups on SB Lindbergh over the radio that I'm sure this light will create.
There are two volleyball interchanges in Pennsylvania, one west of Philadelphia (between I-476 and US 1) and one west of Pittsburgh (between PA 576 and US 22). Both between two freeways.
How I hate them.
Will that US22 interchange be upgraded once the PA 576 extension down to I-79 is done?
QuoteWill that US22 interchange be upgraded once the PA 576 extension down to I-79 is done?
My understanding is not immediately. I do not remember seeing any indication of such from the PTC or elsewhere.
So Lindbergh/270 will be the third volleyball in MO, after US-54 at Lake of the Ozarks and the one interchange in Jeff City (bastardized).
Quote from: STLmapboy on August 21, 2020, 11:32:20 AM
So Lindbergh/270 will be the third volleyball in MO, after US-54 at Lake of the Ozarks and the one interchange in Jeff City (bastardized).
You mean this one:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/County+Rd+611,+Washington+Township,+MO/@38.5819105,-92.1833052,600m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87db70296e9d6d8f:0x6713f290db41f7e8!8m2!3d38.4433491!4d-91.9930316
Quote from: rte66man on August 22, 2020, 02:53:15 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on August 21, 2020, 11:32:20 AM
So Lindbergh/270 will be the third volleyball in MO, after US-54 at Lake of the Ozarks and the one interchange in Jeff City (bastardized).
You mean this one:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/County+Rd+611,+Washington+Township,+MO/@38.5819105,-92.1833052,600m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87db70296e9d6d8f:0x6713f290db41f7e8!8m2!3d38.4433491!4d-91.9930316
Yes. There may be more, though I think I covered the current ones.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 08, 2020, 10:03:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?
There used to be a website devoted to St. Louis Highways run by Kim Harvey
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 08, 2020, 10:03:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?
Someone dumped some old pictures of some St. Louis freeways from the 70s to the 90s on the Saint Louis subreddit today. See user page u/Dwaynep2018 (https://www.reddit.com/user/Dwaynep2018/) and scroll down a bit.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on September 13, 2020, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 08, 2020, 10:03:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?
Someone dumped some old pictures of some St. Louis freeways from the 70s to the 90s on the Saint Louis subreddit today. See user page u/Dwaynep2018 (https://www.reddit.com/user/Dwaynep2018/) and scroll down a bit.
That same guy did a lot of Wikimedia (https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Dwaynep2018/) contributions, including some old 80s-90s STL button copy.
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 13, 2020, 04:47:42 PM
Quote from: ozarkman417 on September 13, 2020, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 08, 2020, 10:03:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?
Someone dumped some old pictures of some St. Louis freeways from the 70s to the 90s on the Saint Louis subreddit today. See user page u/Dwaynep2018 (https://www.reddit.com/user/Dwaynep2018/) and scroll down a bit.
That same guy did a lot of Wikimedia (https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Dwaynep2018/) contributions, including some old 80s-90s STL button copy.
Same guy that copies others photos (with no credit given) and posts them as his own. He did it here and on various Facebook road groups.
Interstate 170 was once proposed to extend further south, all the way to Interstate 55. Does anyone think that freeway should have been built, despite the extensive plowing-down of homes and businesses such an extension would have required?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:10:38 PM
Interstate 170 was once proposed to extend further south, all the way to Interstate 55. Does anyone think that freeway should have been built, despite the extensive plowing-down of homes and businesses such an extension would have required?
Considering the amount of "plowing-down" the cities near the current south end did for commercial development instead . . .
Yes, it should have been built down. It is a much needed missing link, aggravated by the lack of alternative connections near downtown St. Louis and a disjointed arterial system in St. Louis County. It used to be even worse back when there wasn't even a direct connection from EB US 40 to NB I-170. The lack of its construction also shows a great amount of NIMBYism to traffic that instead passes through the various inner suburbs (such as Webster Groves) that would have used the I-170 extension instead. At the very least I-170 should have been extended to I-44 with a connection to River Des Peres Boulevard
Found the application to AASHO for the change from I-244 and I-255 to I-270 back in the 1970s. (https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=aba1bef4-bad5-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true) The map on Page 5 of 9 has a version of what is now MO 370 with a slightly different alignment and a black, numberless interstate shield.
Also found the application for extending I-64 out to Wentzville (https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=646e0b77-54e6-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true), which had an alternative to designate US 40 through St. Louis as I-370 if Illinois did not agree.
And an application related to the purging of marked routes from St. Louis City around 1974. (https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=875da7ee-bad5-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true)
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 03, 2020, 12:15:55 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:10:38 PM
Interstate 170 was once proposed to extend further south, all the way to Interstate 55. Does anyone think that freeway should have been built, despite the extensive plowing-down of homes and businesses such an extension would have required?
Considering the amount of "plowing-down" the cities near the current south end did for commercial development instead . . .
Yes, it should have been built down. It is a much needed missing link, aggravated by the lack of alternative connections near downtown St. Louis and a disjointed arterial system in St. Louis County. It used to be even worse back when there wasn't even a direct connection from EB US 40 to NB I-170. The lack of its construction also shows a great amount of NIMBYism to traffic that instead passes through the various inner suburbs (such as Webster Groves) that would have used the I-170 extension instead. At the very least I-170 should have been extended to I-44 with a connection to River Des Peres Boulevard
Found the application to AASHO for the change from I-244 and I-255 to I-270 back in the 1970s. (https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=aba1bef4-bad5-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true) The map on Page 5 of 9 has a version of what is now MO 370 with a slightly different alignment and a black, numberless interstate shield.
Also found the application for extending I-64 out to Wentzville (https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=646e0b77-54e6-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true), which had an alternative to designate US 40 through St. Louis as I-370 if Illinois did not agree.
And an application related to the purging of marked routes from St. Louis City around 1974. (https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=875da7ee-bad5-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true)
IIRC, I-170 was supposed to run south through Webster Groves and connect to I-270 near Tesson Ferry. I moved to STL in the late 80's around when the effort had changed to extend I-170 SE along the River Des Peres corridor to I-55. There was even a short-lived effort to just upgrade River Des Peres Blvd (https://nextstl.com/2013/06/maplewood-aims-to-kill-fundamentally-flawed-south-county-connector/) including an extension north to I-44 and Big Bend Blvd which was heavily opposed by the Maplewood mayor and those along the corridor. I'm fairly sure the effort to build the commercial development came after most highway boosters had given up on the extension.
The Promenade at Brentwood developers paid better than market rate for the properties (https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/1997/02/10/story3.html). This was primarily a middle class African-American neighborhood in a mostly white suburb, so building the highway would likely have never happened without a financial incentive. Almost all the property owners were happy to take the money offered by the developers after they opposed the state's efforts. The state would never have paid for as much, nor would have been as patient with the few holdouts.
When I checked your links, all I got was "404 - File or directory not found."
^ It seems to be a problem with the AASHTO Database (https://grmservices.grmims.com/vsearch/portal/public/na4/aashto/default). The search parameters that should find the documents, along with the barcodes (which don't always appear to be unique) are below:
1) Document Type: Application/Route Number: 2710/State MO:/Year 1974; Barcode 101277395
2) Document Type: Application/Route Number: 64/State: MO/Year: 1987; Barcode 101277403
3) Document Type: Application/Route Number: 67/State: MO/Year: 1974; Barcode 101277395
As for the routing of I-170, it varied with the decade of the proposal. One of the proposals in either the 1970's or 1980's ran closer to Laclede Station Road, but the one in the mid 1990's would have followed the Metrolink light rail line down to I-44 (with one alternative shifting the interchange with US 40 easterward), then parallel to the BNSF railroad down to end where I-55 crosses Green Park Road, possibly with a connection to MO 267. The sketches I recall for the mid 1990's proposal had a stack at US 40, a stack at I-44 (with mainline 170 elevated due to the nearby railroads), and a half stack at I-55.
Drove around for about 90 minutes today. A few updates:
-The 70E-W exit signs (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.720336,-90.446025,3a,37.7y,15.1h,90.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sl6hLGpUHhPCBlb-LVgLvZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) on 270 NB have been replaced (the congestion ahead blinker and 270 north signs remain). It is now a unisign with a divider in the middle and IIRC an "exits 20A-B" tab. New signs have been added elsewhere (including new "crossing double white line prohibited" signs ground mounted at either side of this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7367167,-90.4422133,3a,40.8y,16.43h,96.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spGTBTvGQJIDHGlD6oohkOQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) BGS) and there is a new concrete barrier here (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7394528,-90.4415753,3a,80.4y,59.04h,90.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPxuexuxT6Fp0vY8IZxWOlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/), unpainted. All this is in addition to the new bridge pavement and median barrier (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7253714,-90.444514,3a,75y,353.81h,90.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skGgozZljqx7nWljUd-S_Fw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) over Fee Fee Creek and the railroad a year and a half ago.
-This (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6592616,-90.1964727,3a,75y,182.19h,80.18t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sHh2Pui9VYsGSdbk6qujVhw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DHh2Pui9VYsGSdbk6qujVhw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D118.6281%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192/) part of 70 EB has new pavement, unstriped as yet.
-Not specifically freeway related, but the city of St Louis has blockaded some lanes on roads like Tucker and Market with concrete barriers. I believe the idea is to prevent street racing.
MoDOT has plans to make adjustments to the MO 364/MO 94/Muegge Road interchange. The Muegge Road connector would change to a DDI-variant with the eastern crossover being grade separated using the existing bridge over the MO 364 main lanes. The project would also remove the signal on MO 94 at Portwest Drive.
Link to project page (https://www.modot.org/interchange-improvements-route-94-route-364-muegge-road)
Link to project map (https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/Map.pdf)
Quote from: CapeCodder on September 13, 2020, 03:55:52 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 08, 2020, 10:03:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any pictures or links to websites with pictures of St Louis highways in the 1990s/early 2000s?
There used to be a website devoted to St. Louis Highways run by Kim Harvey
Thanks to the Wayback Machine who archived the Andy's Highways kick-off page (http://"https://web.archive.org/web/20001202032500/http://www.aaroads.com/kick-off/highway.html"), I founded some remnants of Kim Harvey's pages.
https://web.archive.org/web/20020124020344/http://www.stlhighways.org/
https://web.archive.org/web/20000919174310/http://www.crosswinds.net/st-louis/~harv77/highways/270/index.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20000920003824/http://www.crosswinds.net/~harv77/highways/junctions/
Not sure when it opened (probably the past week or 2?), but saw that the interchange between MO 364 and Gutermuth (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7351622,-90.6677279,16.12z) is on Google Maps now.
Also suprised to find out that US 40/61 north of MO K hasn't been 6 laned yet since I left the area 7 years ago. Hopefully there's a good reason for that, considering that MO 364 is 8 lane with an exit only lane per direction with an AADT of 35k-40k per direction in portions, while US 40/61 only has a slightly lower AADT (30-33k)
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 31, 2020, 04:34:24 PM
Not sure when it opened (probably the past week or 2?), but saw that the interchange between MO 364 and Gutermuth (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7351622,-90.6677279,16.12z) is on Google Maps now.
The project website states that it opened November 19th. (https://www.sccmo.org/1900/Gutermuth-RoadRoute-364-Interchange)
EDIT: Has anyone in the area driven it to clarify what the exit number is?
Quote from: 74/171FAN on December 31, 2020, 04:41:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 31, 2020, 04:34:24 PM
Not sure when it opened (probably the past week or 2?), but saw that the interchange between MO 364 and Gutermuth (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7351622,-90.6677279,16.12z) is on Google Maps now.
The project website states that it opened November 19th. (https://www.sccmo.org/1900/Gutermuth-RoadRoute-364-Interchange)
EDIT: Has anyone in the area driven it to clarify what the exit number is?
Yes, it's exit 6.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210101/99598ab7f68d816bc8bbf2ee15692c8b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210101/7155d8d80c843c977dca1c962fba81f2.jpg)
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I just got back from that area yesterday. I used to take Gutermuth as the "back way" when I worked at the Shop N' Save at Monticello Plaza. Fun Fact: they found Walter Scott's body floating in the cistern behind Jim Williams' house. The very same Walter Scott whose 1966 song The Cheater turned out to be prophetic.
Why is Missouri using two different styles of gore signs--putting the box style (such as that shown for 364/Gutermuth above) in some places and the stacked Minnesota-style in other places? When MO started using the MN-style signs, they were putting them in all over the state, but now it seems that they have put new MN-style signs in some places and the other style elsewhere. Shouldn't the entire state be consistent?
Quote from: jbrocato on January 10, 2021, 10:25:46 PM
Why is Missouri using two different styles of gore signs--putting the box style (such as that shown for 364/Gutermuth above) in some places and the stacked Minnesota-style in other places? When MO started using the MN-style signs, they were putting them in all over the state, but now it seems that they have put new MN-style signs in some places and the other style elsewhere. Shouldn't the entire state be consistent?
From what I noticed, the newer 1-2 digit exit gore signs get the MUTCD box style, and the 3+ digit ones retain the vertical style. Before that, Missouri had TX style exit signs, with the exit number in a tab above the rest of the sign. Think the most recent of those installed are on the original section of MO 364
Ohio is even more inconsistant with this than Missouri. Columbus and Toledo are pretty much all vertical exit gore signs regardless of number of digits, Cleveland have the box style even on 4 digit (3 digit and suffix) exit numbers, and Cincinnati is mostly box style except on narrow gores, where it uses the vertical style.
Some long-range St Charles County project plans from an article (https://www.70westsentinel.com/long-range-transportation-plans-include-changes-to-i-70-s-curve-in-wentzville/) previously linked in the Missouri thread:
Quote
Included in the LRP is a project at I-70 and the Norfolk Southern Railroad. The plan calls for additional lanes to be added to I-70 under the railroad bridge in Wentzville. A daily bottleneck on the interstate, due to the curve of the highway and limited number of lanes between Route Z and Wentzville Parkway, causes delays for those trying to get home as well as freight trucks traveling through the region.
...
Key St. Charles County TIP projects awaiting final approval include:
I-70 from Convention Center Boulevard to Zumbehl Road: This nearly $36 million project would reconfigure the
I-70 interchange at Zumbehl Road to allow for better utilization of outer roads, reduced congestion, and improved safety along this heavily traveled segment of the highway.
I-70 Blanchette Bridge: The plan calls for the full length of the eastbound bridge to undergo rehabilitation at a cost of more than $46 million. In 2013, reconstruction of the westbound bridge, which was built in 1958, was completed; the eastbound span was built in 1978. In preparation for the construction, the Missouri Department of Transportation (MoDOT) has funded restriping of westbound MO 364 from the Missouri River to Jungs Station to add an additional traffic lane and help alleviate congestion during the bridge work.
Muegge Road to Highway 94/MO 364: This $16 million project will provide direct access from Muegge Road to Highway 94 in St. Charles.
Gateway Green Light: Signal optimization; $150,000
I-70 at MO 94 (First Capitol Drive): Conversion of interchange to diverging diamond; $2.6 million
Interstate Drive from Prospect Road to Quail Ridge Park Entrance: Reconstruction of shoulder and sidewalk;
$4 million
Central School Road at St. Peters Howell Road: Intersection improvements; $1.82 million
MO 370 at Salt River Road: New eastbound to southbound ramp; $3.3 million
Smart Parking Management System, City of St. Charles: Installation of parking lot sensors, cameras and phone app; $1 million
US 67: A portion of southbound Highway 67 between the Clark Bridge over the Mississippi River and Highway 94 will be elevated to avoid flooding-related closures; $3 million
County Executive Ehlmann also urged approval of a project at MO 141 and MO 364 in Creve Coeur which would ease congestion for drivers entering St. Charles County. Ehlmann lobbied that lengthening the right turn lanes to the eastbound and westbound ramps on to MO 364 will greatly increase traffic flow. This proposed project is included in the TIP.
As a point of reference, here's a 2016 AADT map of various highways in St Charles County. Red numbers are the AADT counts, and are for both directions added up:
(https://i.imgur.com/JpbFZyp.png)
My 2 thoughts
- For MO 94 between MO 364 and I-70, a widening of the remaining 4 lane sections to 6 lanes is planned as part of the Muegge interchange project. I think there was a study linked upthread of a possibility of turning MO 94 into a full freeway with one-way frontage roads on both sides. Though both solutions would still be bottlenecked by the interchange at I-70, which is currently an SPUI. Someone can correct me on this, but I'm not sure if a DDI will be that much effective, specifically for the WB 70 to WB 94 movement, than the current SPUI. I thought of a flyover for that movement, but that may be too costly for what its worth. Is there enough room to widen the WB 70 to WB 94 left turn from the current 2 lanes to 3 lanes?
- For the Convention Center to Zumbehl improvement on I-70, I wonder why the improvement area isn't extended west all the way to MO 370. According to the AADT map above, the AADT is actually higher west of Zumbehl than east of it. It's also only 6 lanes west of it, while it's 8 east of it. Also, the Cave Springs interchange have the same issues as Zumbehl for congestion.
Found that on I-55 just north (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5179902,-90.3324975,700m/data=!3m1!1e3) of the I-270 and US 67 interchanges, the median widens out a bit. Was this intentionally done to fit ramps for an extended I-170?
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 05, 2021, 06:05:06 PM
Found that on I-55 just north (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5179902,-90.3324975,700m/data=!3m1!1e3) of the I-270 and US 67 interchanges, the median widens out a bit. Was this intentionally done to fit ramps for an extended I-170?
I doubt it. The original I-170 plans extended south from then US 40 through Brentwood and Webster Groves to I-270 near the Tesson Ferry interchange. I-55 was part of my daily commute for years and I don't remember hearing any reason for the wider median. The NB lanes are a bit elevated above the SB lanes as the highway slowly climbs up the hill around Lindbergh and Lemay Ferry. It's probably just a relic from when South County was largely farmland and they had room to split the original highway to make construction easier.
Quote from: skluth on June 05, 2021, 07:43:44 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 05, 2021, 06:05:06 PM
Found that on I-55 just north (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5179902,-90.3324975,700m/data=!3m1!1e3) of the I-270 and US 67 interchanges, the median widens out a bit. Was this intentionally done to fit ramps for an extended I-170?
I doubt it. The original I-170 plans extended south from then US 40 through Brentwood and Webster Groves to I-270 near the Tesson Ferry interchange. I-55 was part of my daily commute for years and I don't remember hearing any reason for the wider median. The NB lanes are a bit elevated above the SB lanes as the highway slowly climbs up the hill around Lindbergh and Lemay Ferry. It's probably just a relic from when South County was largely farmland and they had room to split the original highway to make construction easier.
I've never seen a plan for the southern end of I-170 to tie into I-270. The earliest had it tying into River Des Peres Boulevard near I-44. All of the latter plans had it tying into I-55. The last iteration around 1997 (which had I-170 following the BNSF railroad) had a half stack over Green Park Road with a connection to MO 267.
It does seem odd though that I-55 has the separate alignments there and not for any other spots. South of I-255/I-270 there is a slight height difference between the SB and NB lanes that was more noticable before the last widening project that put in the concrete median barrier.
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 05, 2021, 10:59:36 PM
Quote from: skluth on June 05, 2021, 07:43:44 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 05, 2021, 06:05:06 PM
Found that on I-55 just north (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5179902,-90.3324975,700m/data=!3m1!1e3) of the I-270 and US 67 interchanges, the median widens out a bit. Was this intentionally done to fit ramps for an extended I-170?
I doubt it. The original I-170 plans extended south from then US 40 through Brentwood and Webster Groves to I-270 near the Tesson Ferry interchange. I-55 was part of my daily commute for years and I don't remember hearing any reason for the wider median. The NB lanes are a bit elevated above the SB lanes as the highway slowly climbs up the hill around Lindbergh and Lemay Ferry. It's probably just a relic from when South County was largely farmland and they had room to split the original highway to make construction easier.
I've never seen a plan for the southern end of I-170 to tie into I-270. The earliest had it tying into River Des Peres Boulevard near I-44. All of the latter plans had it tying into I-55. The last iteration around 1997 (which had I-170 following the BNSF railroad) had a half stack over Green Park Road with a connection to MO 267.
It does seem odd though that I-55 has the separate alignments there and not for any other spots. South of I-255/I-270 there is a slight height difference between the SB and NB lanes that was more noticable before the last widening project that put in the concrete median barrier.
It was built that way back in the 1960's. Where the road turns it sits on the side of a ridge. So MoDOT "stepped" the highway around the ridge. If you drive by you will see bedrock on east sides of each side of the road. They essentially step cut the bedrock. Kind of like a farmer when they terrace a hill for easier planting and havesting.
I'm in the St Louis area this week, and saw construction going on at the US 67 and MO 340 interchange. Any idea what they're doing there, as I can't find info about that project on MoDOT's site. I'm guessing that the cloverleaf will be reconfigured into a Parclo, as the weaving distance between loop ramps is pretty short here, but I could be wrong.
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 29, 2021, 10:49:09 PM
I'm in the St Louis area this week, and saw construction going on at the US 67 and MO 340 interchange. Any idea what they're doing there, as I can't find info about that project on MoDOT's site. I'm guessing that the cloverleaf will be reconfigured into a Parclo, as the weaving distance between loop ramps is pretty short here, but I could be wrong.
Here you go. The interchange is being reconfigured: https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/firm-chosen-for-olive-lindbergh-interchange-redesign-in-creve-coeur/article_885bcd67-9848-5a8a-947c-9bfc1c9f29f1.html
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Quote from: m2tbone on July 29, 2021, 11:37:41 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 29, 2021, 10:49:09 PM
I'm in the St Louis area this week, and saw construction going on at the US 67 and MO 340 interchange. Any idea what they're doing there, as I can't find info about that project on MoDOT's site. I'm guessing that the cloverleaf will be reconfigured into a Parclo, as the weaving distance between loop ramps is pretty short here, but I could be wrong.
Here you go. The interchange is being reconfigured: https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/firm-chosen-for-olive-lindbergh-interchange-redesign-in-creve-coeur/article_885bcd67-9848-5a8a-947c-9bfc1c9f29f1.html
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Thanks. Seems like my guess was half correct then. It looks like a folded diamond, but adding in WB-NB and SB-WB access is a plus.
Though looking through https://39northstl.com/projects/interchange/ (https://39northstl.com/projects/interchange/), the interchange redo comes with new roads tying into the ramp intersections with MO 340 and a new signal on US 67 at Old Olive.
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 01, 2021, 10:21:42 PM
Though looking through https://39northstl.com/projects/interchange/ (https://39northstl.com/projects/interchange/), the interchange redo comes with new roads tying into the ramp intersections with MO 340 and a new signal on US 67 at Old Olive.
I'm seeing renderings of both a version where Old Olive crosses over US 67 on an overpass, and another at a signalized intersection. Really hoping the overpass version gets chosen, as Old Olive would still have access from the new ramps to MO 340, and new connectors from 340 to Old Olive.
One thing I've wondered regarding STL-area freeways: why aren't MO 364 and MO 370 called I-364 and I-370 instead? That clearly seems to be what MoDOT was trying to suggest when they built those roads - might as well make it official.
Quote from: KCRoadFan on August 12, 2021, 11:37:04 PM
One thing I've wondered regarding STL-area freeways: why aren't MO 364 and MO 370 called I-364 and I-370 instead? That clearly seems to be what MoDOT was trying to suggest when they built those roads - might as well make it official.
AASHTO was being picky and denied MoDOT's request for I-370 for MO 370, and suggested I-870 instead, as the route acts more like a bypass. Yes, the same organization that wanted 540 over 640 as a number for Raleigh's outer beltway. I guess MoDOT gave up on attempts to make MO 370, and MO 364 later down the line, interstates.
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 12, 2021, 11:45:32 PM
Quote from: KCRoadFan on August 12, 2021, 11:37:04 PM
One thing I've wondered regarding STL-area freeways: why aren't MO 364 and MO 370 called I-364 and I-370 instead? That clearly seems to be what MoDOT was trying to suggest when they built those roads - might as well make it official.
AASHTO was being picky and denied MoDOT's request for I-370 for MO 370, and suggested I-870 instead, as the route acts more like a bypass. Yes, the same organization that wanted 540 over 640 as a number for Raleigh's outer beltway. I guess MoDOT gave up on attempts to make MO 370, and MO 364 later down the line, interstates.
I think 364 needs to be upgraded at the interchange with 64 if they want to make it an interstate. I could be wrong on that, but I thought I heard that like 5 or 6 years ago when they were finishing up the connection to I-64.
That being said, I think they should request a designation for both. Not sure if MODOT wants to do it or not.
Quote from: mvak36 on August 13, 2021, 10:51:15 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 12, 2021, 11:45:32 PM
Quote from: KCRoadFan on August 12, 2021, 11:37:04 PM
One thing I've wondered regarding STL-area freeways: why aren't MO 364 and MO 370 called I-364 and I-370 instead? That clearly seems to be what MoDOT was trying to suggest when they built those roads - might as well make it official.
AASHTO was being picky and denied MoDOT's request for I-370 for MO 370, and suggested I-870 instead, as the route acts more like a bypass. Yes, the same organization that wanted 540 over 640 as a number for Raleigh's outer beltway. I guess MoDOT gave up on attempts to make MO 370, and MO 364 later down the line, interstates.
I think 364 needs to be upgraded at the interchange with 64 if they want to make it an interstate.
But that being said, I think they should request a designation for both. Not sure if MODOT wants to do it or not.
Just looked at the I-64 and MO 364 interchange, and it looks like there are a lot of stub ramps that were once planned to be used in the interchange that got left out, most notably an EB 40/61 to EB 364 flyover (in blue), and a second overpass for MO 364 EB (in green). Guess MoDOT did some cost cutting at that interchange? If that's the case, kind of weird imo that they did some cost-cutting on a crucial freeway-freeway interchange on the 364 system, yet built phase 1 out with 10 lanes when it only have the traffic levels for 6 lanes 18 years after opening.
(https://i.imgur.com/7qN0EHM.png)
^ I seem to recall MoDOT having more cash for the initial section of MO 364. The section out to US 40 was constructed during MoDOT's leaner years which IIRC resulted in downgrades to the US 40 interchange and the western interchange with MO 94 (MO 94 was supposed to be free-flowing through that interchange).
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 13, 2021, 11:10:59 AM
Just looked at the I-64 and MO 364 interchange, and it looks like there are a lot of stub ramps that were once planned to be used in the interchange that got left out, most notably an EB 40/61 to EB 364 flyover (in blue), and a second overpass for MO 364 EB (in green). Guess MoDOT did some cost cutting at that interchange? If that's the case, kind of weird imo that they did some cost-cutting on a crucial freeway-freeway interchange on the 364 system, yet built phase 1 out with 10 lanes when it only have the traffic levels for 6 lanes 18 years after opening.
(https://i.imgur.com/7qN0EHM.png)
Those stubs weren't for planned flyovers.
Prior to the construction of MO-364, the interchange with I-64 was solely for Route N, which previously continued east and met with Henke Road. The rest of Route N could be accessed by going south on Henke, or by crossing over I-64 on the bridge immediately south of the interchange. It was a partial cloverleaf interchange; those stubs simply were for the signalized intersections that were previously there.
MoDOT simply got lazy and added two extra loop ramps to the south of the existing ramps, a ramp connecting WB 64 to EB 364, and cut off the ramps that met with Route N when they were finishing the MO-364 project. Here's how the interchange appeared in August 2012, about two years before MO-364 was completed:
(https://i.imgur.com/vTVnNYa.png)
Quote from: wolfiefrick on August 28, 2021, 09:21:17 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 13, 2021, 11:10:59 AM
Just looked at the I-64 and MO 364 interchange, and it looks like there are a lot of stub ramps that were once planned to be used in the interchange that got left out, most notably an EB 40/61 to EB 364 flyover (in blue), and a second overpass for MO 364 EB (in green). Guess MoDOT did some cost cutting at that interchange? If that's the case, kind of weird imo that they did some cost-cutting on a crucial freeway-freeway interchange on the 364 system, yet built phase 1 out with 10 lanes when it only have the traffic levels for 6 lanes 18 years after opening.
(https://i.imgur.com/7qN0EHM.png)
Those stubs weren't for planned flyovers.
Prior to the construction of MO-364, the interchange with I-64 was solely for Route N, which previously continued east and met with Henke Road. The rest of Route N could be accessed by going south on Henke, or by crossing over I-64 on the bridge immediately south of the interchange. It was a partial cloverleaf interchange; those stubs simply were for the signalized intersections that were previously there.
MoDOT simply got lazy and added two extra loop ramps to the south of the existing ramps, a ramp connecting WB 64 to EB 364, and cut off the ramps that met with Route N when they were finishing the MO-364 project. Here's how the interchange appeared in August 2012, about two years before MO-364 was completed:
(https://i.imgur.com/vTVnNYa.png)
The flyover I drew in blue wasn't a former left turn lane if you looked closely at your August 2012 image, it was definitely a stub. The stub on the top right, however, was a former left turn onto 40/61 WB.
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 28, 2021, 09:33:19 PM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on August 28, 2021, 09:21:17 PM
Those stubs weren't for planned flyovers.
Prior to the construction of MO-364, the interchange with I-64 was solely for Route N, which previously continued east and met with Henke Road. The rest of Route N could be accessed by going south on Henke, or by crossing over I-64 on the bridge immediately south of the interchange. It was a partial cloverleaf interchange; those stubs simply were for the signalized intersections that were previously there.
MoDOT simply got lazy and added two extra loop ramps to the south of the existing ramps, a ramp connecting WB 64 to EB 364, and cut off the ramps that met with Route N when they were finishing the MO-364 project. Here's how the interchange appeared in August 2012, about two years before MO-364 was completed:
(https://i.imgur.com/vTVnNYa.png)
The flyover I drew in blue wasn't a former left turn lane if you looked closely at your August 2012 image, it was definitely a stub. The stub on the top right, however, was a former left turn onto 40/61 WB.
Ah, it looks like you're correct. It would make sense for the flyover to go there, though; I wonder if there are archival MoDOT plans that document what that stub might've been for. I'm pretty sure that intersection remained unchanged between the time they built it when they were upgrading that stretch to interstate standards and when they finished MO-364.
Quote from: wolfiefrick on September 01, 2021, 02:14:35 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 28, 2021, 09:33:19 PM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on August 28, 2021, 09:21:17 PM
Those stubs weren't for planned flyovers.
Prior to the construction of MO-364, the interchange with I-64 was solely for Route N, which previously continued east and met with Henke Road. The rest of Route N could be accessed by going south on Henke, or by crossing over I-64 on the bridge immediately south of the interchange. It was a partial cloverleaf interchange; those stubs simply were for the signalized intersections that were previously there.
MoDOT simply got lazy and added two extra loop ramps to the south of the existing ramps, a ramp connecting WB 64 to EB 364, and cut off the ramps that met with Route N when they were finishing the MO-364 project. Here's how the interchange appeared in August 2012, about two years before MO-364 was completed:
https://i.imgur.com/vTVnNYa.png
The flyover I drew in blue wasn't a former left turn lane if you looked closely at your August 2012 image, it was definitely a stub. The stub on the top right, however, was a former left turn onto 40/61 WB.
Ah, it looks like you're correct. It would make sense for the flyover to go there, though; I wonder if there are archival MoDOT plans that document what that stub might've been for. I'm pretty sure that intersection remained unchanged between the time they built it when they were upgrading that stretch to interstate standards and when they finished MO-364.
I have said preliminary plans in my archive. Limited access to that harddrive though. Will see if I can attach a screenshot in the near future. But can confirm a two(?) lane flyover
My brother lived off Bennington when the original Page Expressway was cancelled. MoDOT sold the land west of Bennington and it was a thriving subdivision for all of 3 years when MoDOT changed their mind and reacquired all that land and had all the houses torn down. Supreme waste of money at the time.
The only "compliance" issue I can see with MO-364 is the non-standard access to Alta Mira back when it was converted to a freeway and stranded the neighborhood. So the exit ramp is really a circle drive and not enough of the slow down lane (IMHO). The rest as i have driven from I-64 to I-270 is interstate grade and should be numbered as such.
Quote from: edwaleni on September 04, 2021, 08:05:48 PM
My brother lived off Bennington when the original Page Expressway was cancelled. MoDOT sold the land west of Bennington and it was a thriving subdivision for all of 3 years when MoDOT changed their mind and reacquired all that land and had all the houses torn down. Supreme waste of money at the time.
Bet MoDOT had difficulties getting that land back too. I guess they were swimming in cash back then to buy back the land, AND construct Phase 1 with 8 lanes + 2 auxiliary lanes the whole way. Though that will explain why I didn't see that much evidence of houses getting torn down in the area for the freeway when visiting a friend that lives there.
Quote from: edwaleni on September 04, 2021, 08:05:48 PM
The only "compliance" issue I can see with MO-364 is the non-standard access to Alta Mira back when it was converted to a freeway and stranded the neighborhood. So the exit ramp is really a circle drive and not enough of the slow down lane (IMHO). The rest as i have driven from I-64 to I-270 is interstate grade and should be numbered as such.
The I-64 to Spoede exit is pretty similar with the roundabout connectors, and specifically the WB side, a short ramp.
Quote from: intelati49 on September 04, 2021, 04:13:22 PM
I have said preliminary plans in my archive. Limited access to that harddrive though. Will see if I can attach a screenshot in the near future. But can confirm a two(?) lane flyover
(https://i.imgur.com/fXdcbJT.png)
Here's the latest diagram I've found. It was part of a Lake St. Louis Board of Alderman information packet from March. It also includes access to Henke Rd. I'm not sure if this is the latest plan or not.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210907/f84d75ff287cf3cbe7ed239bf4575a65.jpg)
iPad Pro
Used to visit STL region seeing relatives and weddings. Cousins' family lived in 1960 era sub-division by Cave Springs exit, in St. Charles Co. Back in 60's was rural, and their neighborhood [West Clay & Sawyer] seemed like only houses for miles, though I was pre-teen. {Didn't see old part of St. Charles til 1972.}
Then, when there in '73, traffic on I-70 was heavy, and its bridge had potholes. By next visit in '78 was fully suburban, with Target, Venture and other shops at Cave Spgs. In 80's saw new St. Peters Mall and more development to US-40. And, the 270-70 interchange was modernized from cloverleaf. 90s-00s even more built up.
As someone said, was amazed at all the wide free/expressways & interchanges, but then Chicagoland doesn't have the room to expand as much.
Now, like to look at area on Google, and recently joined this site, and interesting to hear what's going on with roads, etc.
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 15, 2021, 04:53:13 PM
As someone said, was amazed at all the wide free/expressways & interchanges, but then Chicagoland doesn't have the room willpower/leadership to expand as much.
FTFY
(Edit: While some would be hard to expand, there are grass medians available on others.)
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 15, 2021, 04:53:13 PM
Used to visit STL region seeing relatives and weddings. Cousins' family lived in 1960 era sub-division by Cave Springs exit, in St. Charles Co. Back in 60's was rural, and their neighborhood [West Clay & Sawyer] seemed like only houses for miles, though I was pre-teen. {Didn't see old part of St. Charles til 1972.}
Then, when there in '73, traffic on I-70 was heavy, and its bridge had potholes. By next visit in '78 was fully suburban, with Target, Venture and other shops at Cave Spgs. In 80's saw new St. Peters Mall and more development to US-40. And, the 270-70 interchange was modernized from cloverleaf. 90s-00s even more built up.
As someone said, was amazed at all the wide free/expressways & interchanges, but then Chicagoland doesn't have the room to expand as much.
Now, like to look at area on Google, and recently joined this site, and interesting to hear what's going on with roads, etc.
Do you remember if I-70 in St Charles County (specifically the area around Cave Springs you mentioned) was 4 lanes or 6 lanes back then? Based on the satellite image, with different pavement color and a narrow left shoulder (6 feet, opposed to the 10 feet required in interstate standards), I have a feeling that it was originally 4 lanes, and later widened to 6 in the inside. I could be wrong.
(https://i.imgur.com/L0EsNzS.png)
^^^
It was definitely widened, sometime in the 1970s if I had to guess:
https://www.historicaerials.com/location/38.78973355916036/-90.54886107419532/1968/17
Does anyone have photographic evidence what exit number that MO 94/MO 364 has for the new Heritage Crossing exit (https://www.sccmo.org/civicalerts.aspx?aid=1862)?
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 18, 2021, 02:46:54 PM
Does anyone have photographic evidence what exit number that MO 94/MO 364 has for the new Heritage Crossing exit (https://www.sccmo.org/civicalerts.aspx?aid=1862)?
Google Maps says that it's exit 13A, though I'm really hoping that it is wrong, and that it's exit 12 instead, as that's the number used in the WB direction for Heritage Crossing. And Wikipedia haven't updated their page for MO 364 yet.
(https://i.imgur.com/U5R6CTh.png)
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 18, 2021, 02:04:39 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 15, 2021, 04:53:13 PM
Used to visit STL region seeing relatives and weddings. Cousins' family lived in 1960 era sub-division by Cave Springs exit, in St. Charles Co. Back in 60's was rural, and their neighborhood [West Clay & Sawyer] seemed like only houses for miles, though I was pre-teen. {Didn't see old part of St. Charles til 1972.}
Then, when there in '73, traffic on I-70 was heavy, and its bridge had potholes. By next visit in '78 was fully suburban, with Target, Venture and other shops at Cave Spgs. In 80's saw new St. Peters Mall and more development to US-40. And, the 270-70 interchange was modernized from cloverleaf. 90s-00s even more built up.
As someone said, was amazed at all the wide free/expressways & interchanges, but then Chicagoland doesn't have the room to expand as much.
Now, like to look at area on Google, and recently joined this site, and interesting to hear what's going on with roads, etc.
Do you remember if I-70 in St Charles County (specifically the area around Cave Springs you mentioned) was 4 lanes or 6 lanes back then? Based on the satellite image, with different pavement color and a narrow left shoulder (6 feet, opposed to the 10 feet required in interstate standards), I have a feeling that it was originally 4 lanes, and later widened to 6 in the inside. I could be wrong.
(https://i.imgur.com/L0EsNzS.png)
I-70 was 4 lanes back then, [late 60's]. Was clogged by 1972/73. By 1978, MO was building 2nd bridge, and then 70 was 6 lanes.
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 20, 2021, 11:44:21 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 18, 2021, 02:04:39 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 15, 2021, 04:53:13 PM
Used to visit STL region seeing relatives and weddings. Cousins' family lived in 1960 era sub-division by Cave Springs exit, in St. Charles Co. Back in 60's was rural, and their neighborhood [West Clay & Sawyer] seemed like only houses for miles, though I was pre-teen. {Didn't see old part of St. Charles til 1972.}
Then, when there in '73, traffic on I-70 was heavy, and its bridge had potholes. By next visit in '78 was fully suburban, with Target, Venture and other shops at Cave Spgs. In 80's saw new St. Peters Mall and more development to US-40. And, the 270-70 interchange was modernized from cloverleaf. 90s-00s even more built up.
As someone said, was amazed at all the wide free/expressways & interchanges, but then Chicagoland doesn't have the room to expand as much.
Now, like to look at area on Google, and recently joined this site, and interesting to hear what's going on with roads, etc.
Do you remember if I-70 in St Charles County (specifically the area around Cave Springs you mentioned) was 4 lanes or 6 lanes back then? Based on the satellite image, with different pavement color and a narrow left shoulder (6 feet, opposed to the 10 feet required in interstate standards), I have a feeling that it was originally 4 lanes, and later widened to 6 in the inside. I could be wrong.
(https://i.imgur.com/L0EsNzS.png)
I-70 was 4 lanes back then, [late 60's]. Was clogged by 1972/73. By 1978, MO was building 2nd bridge, and then 70 was 6 lanes.
Why I-70 West of I-270 is not at least eight lanes the entire way to at least I-64 by now just blows my mind. I think I have seen that there are at least plans now to extend the six-lane portion to West of Wentzville Pkwy (that old railroad underpass has been needing work for over 20 years now). Of course, I-64 should also be six lanes to I-70 (I guess we should also be happy at least it is a full interstate that distance now, considering the memory of dealing with those stoplights).
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 18, 2021, 02:46:54 PM
Does anyone have photographic evidence what exit number that MO 94/MO 364 has for the new Heritage Crossing exit (https://www.sccmo.org/civicalerts.aspx?aid=1862)?
I have driven past the interchange (no photos). Heritage Crossing is 13A and MO 94 east is now 13B (formerly 13).
Quote from: jbrocato on September 23, 2021, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 18, 2021, 02:46:54 PM
Does anyone have photographic evidence what exit number that MO 94/MO 364 has for the new Heritage Crossing exit (https://www.sccmo.org/civicalerts.aspx?aid=1862)?
I have driven past the interchange (no photos). Heritage Crossing is 13A and MO 94 east is now 13B (formerly 13).
Congratulations MoDOT, you spent extra money replacing other signs that you didn't really need to by not calling it exit 12, and not matching with the WB exit for the same road.
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 23, 2021, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: jbrocato on September 23, 2021, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 18, 2021, 02:46:54 PM
Does anyone have photographic evidence what exit number that MO 94/MO 364 has for the new Heritage Crossing exit (https://www.sccmo.org/civicalerts.aspx?aid=1862)?
I have driven past the interchange (no photos). Heritage Crossing is 13A and MO 94 east is now 13B (formerly 13).
Congratulations MoDOT, you spent extra money replacing other signs that you didn't really need to by not calling it exit 12, and not matching with the WB exit for the same road.
That was quick, it's on GSV (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7517117,-90.5586697,3a,31.7y,81.06h,93.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s12460qmCs2en0_5tb41WPQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) already.
Interesting seeing two signs go on a single side gantry. Normally (at least in Missouri), I only see a single sign on a side gantry, and if more than one is needed, then an overhead gantry is used instead.
Looks like the WB US 40 to 22nd St/Jefferson Ave (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6260681,-90.2111433,3a,49.2y,289.72h,87.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s671kJe-6uIk_Lu-TbbzHmw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) opened sometime in the past month or two (also the first 2022 GSV I've seen!)
And a view from the Jefferson Ave (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6276072,-90.2176133,3a,39.3y,68h,86.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFy4MIn4l5OjrDYM7DorctA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) overpass.
EDIT: Seems like the opening is only a partial opening. Full opening will come this spring.
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 03, 2022, 08:37:09 PM
Looks like the WB US 40 to 22nd St/Jefferson Ave (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6260681,-90.2111433,3a,49.2y,289.72h,87.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s671kJe-6uIk_Lu-TbbzHmw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) opened sometime in the past month or two (also the first 2022 GSV I've seen!)
And a view from the Jefferson Ave (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6276072,-90.2176133,3a,39.3y,68h,86.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFy4MIn4l5OjrDYM7DorctA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) overpass.
EDIT: Seems like the opening is only a partial opening. Full opening will come this spring.
This post maybe belongs in the old thread I made about the old interchange, originally designed for the cancelled MO 755 Freeway, giving way for the new soccer stadium
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25883.0
Discussion of the new/reconfigured roads and exits took place in that thread, also
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 03, 2022, 08:37:09 PM
Looks like the WB US 40 to 22nd St/Jefferson Ave (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6260681,-90.2111433,3a,49.2y,289.72h,87.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s671kJe-6uIk_Lu-TbbzHmw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) opened sometime in the past month or two (also the first 2022 GSV I've seen!)
And a view from the Jefferson Ave (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6276072,-90.2176133,3a,39.3y,68h,86.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFy4MIn4l5OjrDYM7DorctA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) overpass.
EDIT: Seems like the opening is only a partial opening. Full opening will come this spring.
It wasn't open when I last went by on January 9th.
I found this 2018 pub (https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/I-70-Express-Lanes-Tech-Memo-Sept-2018-FINAL.pdf) from MODOT on the I-70 Express Lanes in St Louis. Has some interesting proposals on its future. I wish when they last rebuilt I-70 (IIRC, 15-20 years ago) that they had just gotten rid of the express lanes and made I-70 four lanes each way. It would probably mean a return of the backups westbound near Union Blvd, but I've never seen the express lanes all that busy except at rush hour when I lived in St Louis.
I was looking at historical MoDOT maps for another thread, examined the metro St Louis insert, and found some interesting things to note. Map split into 2 images as route numbers would be unreadable if I screenshotted it in 1:
(https://i.imgur.com/AwpOaW2.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/5smPEJP.png)
- So many bannered US routes that went through St Louis, that I lost track of them all. Some US routes have multiple routes (mainline + multiple bannered) through the city, like US 67 on Kingshighway, US 67 ALT to the east, going via downtown, and US 67 Bypass on Lindbergh. US 40 have four, with a US 40 BYP via St Charles and the Chain of Rocks bridge, US 40 ALT along St Charles Rock Rd, and US 40 TRUCK on Manchester east of Lindbergh.
- Speaking of Lindbergh, I see a concurrency of 4 US routes between MO 100 (Manchester) and US 40 on it: US 40 TRUCK/US 61/US 66/US 67 BYP. And it seems like the MacArthur Bridge was a 5-way concurrency between US 40/US 50/US 66 CITY/US 67 ALT/US 460? I wonder how this (along with all the US routes in the metro area) was signed. Also, the MacArthur Bridge was actually one of two bridges to carry both US 40 and US 50 across a body of water back then, along with the SF Bay Bridge. Those two routes really do hang out close with each other for x0 routes :-D
- The "CITY" banner (seen on US 66) is new to me. I don't really get the point of it over other banners, like ALT or Business, but are there any modern-day examples of US routes with a CITY banner left?
- Also, why does US 66 CITY split into two routes north/east of downtown? Wouldn't that be confusing to drivers?
Note that there are 2 "CITY" US-66 on this map.
One on the Illinois side and one on the Missouri side.
BUSN (I thought) was used for truck routing.
ALT was used when a primary route had a potential obstruction (like a draw bridge) or something that would cause congestion.
I still see BUSN and ALT used, but I haven't seen CTY since I was a kid.
Are there any upcoming "mega" freeway projects for the St. Louis metro?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 10:07:42 AM
Are there any upcoming "mega" freeway projects for the St. Louis metro?
The main one I can think of off the top of my head is the improvement of the northern loop of I-270 (called the I-270 North Project (http://www.i270north.org/) by MoDOT), which includes widening that part of I-270 to 8 lanes, reconstructing the US 67 and MO 367 interchanges, converting Dunn Rd to a one-way (WB) frontage road (and Pershall to EB), which removes the situation where WB I-270 exits slip lane have to cross over the EB Dunn Rd lanes each time.
But besides that, it seems like the region's "mega" freeway projects have been concluded in the past decade. Stuff like the I-64 rebuild, Stan Musial Bridge, MO 364, MO 141 northern extension, etc.
Yeah I am aware of the I-270 upgrades. I've been watching that on Twitter. That'll be nice once completed I'll probably make a drive up there just see it and hit up Six Flags while I'm at it.
I swear there was a plan to rebuild and modernize the double decker I-64 viaduct and ramps in DTSTL but I can't find anything on it.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 10:34:44 AM
Yeah I am aware of the I-270 upgrades. I’ve been watching that on Twitter. That’ll be nice once completed I’ll probably make a drive up there just see it and hit up Six Flags while I’m at it.
My only additional wish for the I-270 project is that hopefully, the New Chain of Rocks Bridge over the Mississippi River can get replaced with a 6 lane one in the future. I think suddenly dropping down from 8 lanes (after the completion of the I-270 North project) to 4 lanes could cause some traffic issues.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 10:34:44 AM
I swear there was a plan to rebuild and modernize the double decker I-64 viaduct and ramps in DTSTL but I can’t find anything on it.
There is an I-64 ramps project in downtown STL, it's the new Jefferson Ave and 22nd St interchanges in place of the old flyovers (exits 38A-B), to serve the new soccer stadium. I'll be completed later this year. I posted some GSV links on that above.
While browsing the MoDOT site for more projects that I'm not aware of, there are improvements on I-70 (https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/I-70%20Wentzville%20Alternatives.pdf) between Wentzville Pkwy and US 40/61 in St Charles County under construction right now, which would widen that part from 4 to 8 lanes. After that, there's another project that will rebuild the I-70 and US 40/61 interchange (https://www.modot.org/i-64i-70us-61-interchange), which is currently unfunded though. Hoping this would also widen US 40/61 south of I-70 to 6 (or even 8) lanes; the project page of the interchange mentions that the AADT of US 40/61 south of I-70 is around 75k, which is high for 4 lanes.
Hopefully they also build an iconic span for the new, New Chain of Rock Bridge(not everyday I can say that lol) as opposed to the bland Rocheport bridge. I'd also move to suggest they rename the bridge to the Really New Chain of Rocks Bridge. That would be funny.
I think it should be the New New Chain of Rocks Bridge and the current one should be the Old New Chain of Rocks Bridge. :biggrin:
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 05, 2022, 09:05:33 PM
- The "CITY" banner (seen on US 66) is new to me. I don't really get the point of it over other banners, like ALT or Business, but are there any modern-day examples of US routes with a CITY banner left?
Business and city routes are essentially the same thing. When the concept of bannered routes came into being (Jake Bear tells me this was officially with the 1948 MUTCD, but some states had been using them before then), some states called them CITY and some called them BUSINESS. So you weren't likely to see them both in the same city. The 1961 MUTCD standardized them all to BUSINESS.
Somewhere there might be an old remnant CITY banner still standing, but it would be over 60 years old at this point.
Quote from: skluth on March 07, 2022, 05:29:37 PM
I think it should be the New New Chain of Rocks Bridge and the current one should be the Old New Chain of Rocks Bridge. :biggrin:
Hah that could work :clap:
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 10:53:41 AM
Hopefully they also build an iconic span for the new, New Chain of Rock Bridge(not everyday I can say that lol) as opposed to the bland Rocheport bridge. I'd also move to suggest they rename the bridge to the Really New Chain of Rocks Bridge. That would be funny.
Given the main channel is non-navigable, a signature bridge is very unlikely.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 10:34:44 AM
I swear there was a plan to rebuild and modernize the double decker I-64 viaduct and ramps in DTSTL but I can't find anything on it.
I think there was a deck replacement/rehab project a few years ago, but I can't recall hearing anything about a rebuild/modernization.
As for freeway mega projects, I think St. Louis will be quiet for a few years beyond maintenance and rehab projects.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 10:53:41 AM
Hopefully they also build an iconic span for the new, New Chain of Rock Bridge(not everyday I can say that lol) as opposed to the bland Rocheport bridge. I'd also move to suggest they rename the bridge to the Really New Chain of Rocks Bridge. That would be funny.
I saw the design that went out for bid. Nothing iconic at all. It will be a standard concrete pylon and pre-stressed concrete girder bridge.
One benefit is that it will have less pylons in the water than the old bridge and as noted above there are no navigation requirements, so the bridge will remain the same height.
It will be cheaper to build and way, way more safer than that antique that currently spans the river today.
Quote from: edwaleni on March 07, 2022, 10:55:11 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 10:53:41 AM
Hopefully they also build an iconic span for the new, New Chain of Rock Bridge(not everyday I can say that lol) as opposed to the bland Rocheport bridge. I'd also move to suggest they rename the bridge to the Really New Chain of Rocks Bridge. That would be funny.
I saw the design that went out for bid. Nothing iconic at all. It will be a standard concrete pylon and pre-stressed concrete girder bridge.
Went to bid or is going to go to bid? I am not recalling the new main channel bridge making it to an IDOT letting.
Either way:
Type, Size & Location plans for the new EB Bridge (https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Doing-Business/Standards/Bridge-TSL-Drawings/0600350TSL-20210726.pdf)
Type, Size & Location plans for the new WB bridge. (https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Doing-Business/Standards/Bridge-TSL-Drawings/0600351TSL-20210726.pdf)
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 08, 2022, 10:29:02 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on March 07, 2022, 10:55:11 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 07, 2022, 10:53:41 AM
Hopefully they also build an iconic span for the new, New Chain of Rock Bridge(not everyday I can say that lol) as opposed to the bland Rocheport bridge. I'd also move to suggest they rename the bridge to the Really New Chain of Rocks Bridge. That would be funny.
I saw the design that went out for bid. Nothing iconic at all. It will be a standard concrete pylon and pre-stressed concrete girder bridge.
Went to bid or is going to go to bid? I am not recalling the new main channel bridge making it to an IDOT letting.
Either way:
Type, Size & Location plans for the new EB Bridge (https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Doing-Business/Standards/Bridge-TSL-Drawings/0600350TSL-20210726.pdf)
Type, Size & Location plans for the new WB bridge. (https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Doing-Business/Standards/Bridge-TSL-Drawings/0600351TSL-20210726.pdf)
Let me rephrase, I saw the design that was "going to bid", but I don't have visibility on if it actually
went to bid.
This was the latest info I could find on their project site (https://idot.illinois.gov/projects/i-270-over-the-mississippi-river): https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-8/I-270-Over-Mississippi/documents/Issue%204%20I-270%20Nswltr%20June%202021.pdf
Quote from: mvak36 on March 09, 2022, 02:15:07 PM
This was the latest info I could find on their project site (https://idot.illinois.gov/projects/i-270-over-the-mississippi-river): https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-8/I-270-Over-Mississippi/documents/Issue%204%20I-270%20Nswltr%20June%202021.pdf
I also stand corrected on the bridge construction type.
It will not be pre-stressed concrete girder, it will be a web plate steel composite girder.
"Composite" just means that the road deck structure will share load bearing with the girders.
Found out today that the MO 364 and MO 141 interchange got modified (again!), with a bit of an unconventional design on one half. I'm late to the party, as it's already finished. Looks like it'll turn the southern signals into two-phase as well, with the displaced EB off-ramp left turns
Project page: https://www.modot.org/route-141-route-364-intersection-improvement-project
Image of modified interchange: https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/Route%20141%20and%20364%20Exhibit.pdf
A bit late on this project as well: Planned improvements on I-70 in St Charles County for interchanges with Cave Springs, Zumbehl and MO 94 (exits 225, 227 and 228). Project site: https://www.i70csfg.com/. No final design have been listed yet, which is a bit unusual has as the timeline have the project to be awarded in "Early 2022", and that I haven't seen this listed in the MoDOT Contract Listings thread. But they have 4 options: 2-way frontage roads, 1-way frontage roads, SPUIs, DDIs and roundabouts.
There are preliminary renderings of what a 2-way frontage road and 1-way frontage road options would look like at each interchange. Note that they aren't confirmed to be the final design yet and could change. Videos are at the bottom of this page: https://www.i70csfg.com/options.html. It looks like the mainline will be widened to 4 lanes in both cases, which is good to know. I'll give a TLDR here of what it'll look like at each interchange, with some images.
1-way
- DDI at MO 94
(https://i.imgur.com/cShNzHS.png)
- Connection between Hawks Nest Rd and frontage road
- Some sort of B4 parclo/roundabouts hybrid at Zumbehl
(https://i.imgur.com/Taum0hJ.png)
- Some sort of full cloverleaf/roundabouts hybrid at Cave Springs
(https://i.imgur.com/WohQH4e.png)
2-way
- DDI at MO 94
- Slightly different layout for connection between Hawks Nest Rd and frontage road
- SPUI at Zumbehl
(https://i.imgur.com/mpPDjld.png)
- SPUI at Cave Springs
(https://i.imgur.com/dgSgM3w.png)
My take on this: I prefer the 1-way frontage road option, but I think they went way overboard with the interchange design. From my experience living in this area about 10 years ago, a lot of the issues I've seen have to do with the little distance between the frontage road and ramps. So I think standard diamond interchanges with the frontage road (removing the problem I stated above), with slip lanes to access them from the mainline, and Texas U-turns at each interchange should be adequate, in addition to a WB 70 to WB 94 flyover, but hey, I'm not a professional traffic engineer.
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 27, 2022, 08:36:29 PM
A bit late on this project as well: Planned improvements on I-70 in St Charles County for interchanges with Cave Springs, Zumbehl and MO 94 (exits 225, 227 and 228).
These are fascinating. I can't afford to become conversant with this project, but I want to thank you for posting these.
Quote from: Tom958 on April 28, 2022, 05:56:54 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 27, 2022, 08:36:29 PM
A bit late on this project as well: Planned improvements on I-70 in St Charles County for interchanges with Cave Springs, Zumbehl and MO 94 (exits 225, 227 and 228).
These are fascinating. I can't afford to become conversant with this project, but I want to thank you for posting these.
What would it cost you?
MoDOT is starting a study for US 40 between Kingshighway and Jefferson: https://www.modot.org/node/25701 (https://www.modot.org/node/25701)
Study website: http://future64.com/ (http://future64.com/)
It should be 4 lanes GP each way with two toll lanes each way to future proof it. At the very least just 4 lanes each way is probably expected well only if we're lucky.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 29, 2022, 03:44:27 AM
It should be 4 lanes GP each way with two toll lanes each way to future proof it. At the very least just 4 lanes each way is probably expected well only if we're lucky.
The I-70 Missouri River bridge is 10 lanes (a constraint to further widening), and it's confirmed that it'll be widened to 4 lanes each way in the project area (exits 225-229). I think what would help traffic levels as well is encouraging through traffic to use MO 370 to I-270 instead of I-70 to I-270. Maybe slap Indianapolis as a control city on EB MO 370?
Quote from: Rothman on April 28, 2022, 06:52:51 AM
Quote from: Tom958 on April 28, 2022, 05:56:54 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 27, 2022, 08:36:29 PM
A bit late on this project as well: Planned improvements on I-70 in St Charles County for interchanges with Cave Springs, Zumbehl and MO 94 (exits 225, 227 and 228).
These are fascinating. I can't afford to become conversant with this project, but I want to thank you for posting these.
What would it cost you?
He probably uses a metered hotspot for his internet and doesn't want to exceed his data cap, hence "can't afford it".
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 29, 2022, 03:44:27 AM
It should be 4 lanes GP each way with two toll lanes each way to future proof it. At the very least just 4 lanes each way is probably expected well only if we're lucky.
How do you propose to squeeze all those lanes between Vandeventer and Market where the highway is already two decks? There is no room to widen it there. Widening it still won't fix the worst problem on I-64, the underbuilt portion between I-170 and Forest Park.
Quote from: skluth on April 29, 2022, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 29, 2022, 03:44:27 AM
It should be 4 lanes GP each way with two toll lanes each way to future proof it. At the very least just 4 lanes each way is probably expected well only if we're lucky.
How do you propose to squeeze all those lanes between Vandeventer and Market where the highway is already two decks? There is no room to widen it there. Widening it still won't fix the worst problem on I-64, the underbuilt portion between I-170 and Forest Park.
Add a third deck? :spin:
Widening that stretch would also only worsen the bottleneck going east towards the PSB.
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 28, 2022, 09:54:10 PM
MoDOT is starting a study for US 40 between Kingshighway and Jefferson: https://www.modot.org/node/25701 (https://www.modot.org/node/25701)
Study website: http://future64.com/ (http://future64.com/)
Just saw this. While the study is in its beginning stages, the improvement seems obvious to me, especially with the new Jefferson/22nd St interchange being close to completion: Close down the silly interchange complex at Forest Park/Grand Blvd by Chaiffetz Arena and reconnect Forest Park Ave+Market Street. Then, widen I-64 as needed.
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 28, 2022, 09:54:10 PM
MoDOT is starting a study for US 40 between Kingshighway and Jefferson: https://www.modot.org/node/25701 (https://www.modot.org/node/25701)
Study website: http://future64.com/ (http://future64.com/)
If I remember right, this section was originally part of The New I-64, but it was removed to get the project budget down. The original plan also had SPUIs with dedicated ramps at Hanley and Brentwood, and the overpasses were supposed to have the street names stamped into the side of the bridge, rather than hanging on separate signs in the middle. (See Compton Avenue (https://goo.gl/maps/QNun763HrHcXVYQq5) as an example of how it was supposed to be.)
^ My recollection is the Highway 40 rebuild was originally going to stop around Sarah Street and not get into the long bridges east of there.
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 10, 2022, 10:39:09 PM
^ My recollection is the Highway 40 rebuild was originally going to stop around Sarah Street and not get into the long bridges east of there.
That's correct. I used to hang out at JJ's at Vandeventer and Market; I heard a lot of bitching from my friends who came in from Mid-County and even St Chuck back then. No work was done or even planned east of Vandeventer on I-64 on that project. The rebuild was only planned from west of there to I-270. The first part was west of I-170, then east of I-170 to Vandeventer (or Sarah, one block west).
Focusing on the St Louis portion of this posted in the general Missouri thread:
Quote from: mvak36 on May 19, 2022, 11:44:36 AM
2023-2027 Draft STIP (https://www.modot.org/DRAFTSTIP) is available online. I've only gotten a chance to look at the projects in the KC area. Biggest project is for I-70 between downtown and I-435. Another project of interest is I-49 widening in Cass county as I mentioned in the other thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3239.msg2738952#msg2738952).
These projects might get delayed if SB262 (gas tax increase from 2021) gets repealed.
Some things that caught my attention
Scoping and design projects list:
- MO 364 and 141 interchange improvements (yes, a new one after the recent one that finished earlier this year)
- I-64 and MO 141 interchange improvements
- I-64 and I-70 interchange improvements
- I-64 and Grand Blvd interchange improvements
- More I-270 north loop improvements
Highway and bridge construction list:
- Widening of I-64 from I-70 to MO K. This one is shaded in dark gray, so would be removed if the gas tax increase gets repealed.
- Widening of I-55 south to US 67. This one is also shaded in dark gray.
- I-70 realignment near Wentzville Pkwy interchange
- Payments to IDOT for various Mississippi river bridge improvements, including the I-270 bridge.
The option with a one-way frontage road and DDI at I-70 and MO 94 reminds me of a super-sized version of I-35 and 95th Street (https://goo.gl/maps/ZevybbpACRX3Ys1d9) here in Johnson County. That interchange is smaller and obviously doesn't deal with the same volume of traffic, but it works reasonably well for providing access to the nearby businesses.
A week late on this, but here's the proposed redesign for the I-70/US 40/US 61 interchange:
(https://i.imgur.com/pN7mgkF.png)
More detailed image w/ lane markings: https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/Conceptual%20Preferred%20Alternative%20Exhibit.pdf
Looking at US 40/61 south of the interchange, it shows as 3 lanes each way. I wonder if this means that the 4-lane section between I-70 and MO K will finally get widened to 6 lanes, something long overdue along with the I-70 improvements +-2 miles from the interchange location.
I found out today that MoDOT has Flickr albums for construction projects. Here are the pages and photos of two ongoing projects in St Charles County that I've been keeping up with:
1) MO 364/94/Muegee interchange: Adds in the remaining movements for the previously partial interchange. Centerpiece is a DDI for Muegee Rd over MO 94. Construction started in late 2021, will be done by mid 2023
- Project Page (https://www.modot.org/interchangeimprovements)
- Flickr album (https://www.flickr.com/photos/modot_stl_photos/sets/72177720301777188/)
2) I-70 Cave Springs-Fairgrounds project: Rebuilds the Cave Springs (225) and Zumbehi (227) interchanges as SPUIs, widens the WB I-70 to WB MO 94 movement (228) to 3 lanes, adds WB outer road between MO 94 and Fairgrounds (229A) interchanges. Current issue is that the ramp and frontage road signals are too closely spaced at the first two interchanges. Construction started late last year, will be done by mid 2024.
- Project Page (https://www.i70csfg.com/)
- Construction camera at the Cave Springs interchange (https://app.oxblue.com/cameras/2cddec1dbc6ede4ba005db249b0b91f0)
- Flickr album (https://www.flickr.com/photos/modot_stl_photos/albums/72177720302853976)
I was in St Charles earlier today, and got photos of two ongoing construction projects
MO 364/94/Muegge Interchange
New DDI replacing the partial cloverleaf interchange, providing full access between the three roads.
Project Page (https://www.modot.org/interchangeimprovements)
(https://i.imgur.com/8wF1w3j.jpg)
New BGS for the MO 364 EB and Muegge Rd exit from MO 94 WB
(https://i.imgur.com/HzKV3xX.jpg)
MO 94 WB view of the interchange, with the WB offramp and EB onramp
(https://i.imgur.com/tomRLML.jpg)
MO 94 WB offramp
(https://i.imgur.com/tq9TpyG.jpg)
MO 94 EB onramp
(https://i.imgur.com/t9tlaz1.jpg)
Signage for the relocated ramp from MO 94 WB to Heritage Crossing. This ramp was relocated a bit west to allow for longer merging space between it and the MO 94 WB onramp from Muegge.
(https://i.imgur.com/lfWx55H.jpg)
New BGS for the Muegge Rd exit from MO 94 EB
(https://i.imgur.com/VnCuNas.jpg)
Offramp from MO 94 EB to Muegge
(https://i.imgur.com/BRtUj01.jpg)
Onramp from Muegge to MO 364/94 WB
I-70 Cave Springs Fairgrounds Project
New SPUIs at Cave Springs Rd (Exit 225) and Zumbehl Rd (Exit 227), along with some widenings.
Project Page (https://www.i70csfg.com/plan.html)
(https://i.imgur.com/5Nn0Oam.jpg)
Cave Springs Rd overpass over I-70
(https://i.imgur.com/xbeRtou.jpg)
I-70 EB Cave Springs Rd offramp
(https://i.imgur.com/Cr19snB.jpg)
I-70 EB under Cave Springs Rd
(https://i.imgur.com/b9KUHgT.jpg)
I-70 EB Zumbehl Rd offramp
(https://i.imgur.com/UVSWlxO.jpg)
Zumbehl Rd overpass construction view from the I-70 WB offramp
(https://i.imgur.com/R4CZXQe.jpg)
Zumbehl Rd overpass over I-70
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 19, 2023, 09:46:20 PM
I was in St Charles earlier today, and got photos of two ongoing construction projects
MO 364/94/Muegge Interchange
New DDI replacing the partial cloverleaf interchange, providing full access between the three roads.
Project Page (https://www.modot.org/interchangeimprovements)
[imgs snipped]
This interchange opened sometime in the past week, so I was out there filming a drive through most of the ramp movements.
https://youtu.be/C17HqwN6WUk
Was driving through the new 364/94 interchange earlier today and noticed this monstrosity. Normally I don't take photos while driving, but I had to do a double take here:
(https://i.imgur.com/iF2TPYv.jpg)
I guess I understand the logic given that the mainline curves to the left, but it's still difficult to understand in the aggregate.
Quote from: wolfiefrick on November 15, 2023, 10:39:49 PM
Was driving through the new 364/94 interchange earlier today and noticed this monstrosity. Normally I don't take photos while driving, but I had to do a double take here:
(https://i.imgur.com/iF2TPYv.jpg)
I guess I understand the logic given that the mainline curves to the left, but it's still difficult to understand in the aggregate.
That is a good nominee for "Redesign This!"
I'd leave Exit 12 as a separate panel, not part of the APL
I just finished driving the St Louis metro expressways and the metro east as well this weekend. I have driven in the area many, many times in the past, just my humble opinion.
I-44 with its legacy routing based on US-66 and such with its curves, up and downs from downtown to Ballas Road is dated. Its good road from a surface perspective, but too many blind or reduced sightlines for the speed limit.
The exit ramp from I-64/I-55 the Poplar Street Bridge to I-44 west is still 15mph and near jacknife in quality. The Poplar Street Bridge and those service ramps for all of those splits still needs to be examined. I-70 got moved north to the Musial/Veterans but they need to start the splitting of routes in Illinois before you cross the river.
Going east into Illinois off the MLK bridge to hit I-64 is confusing. I almost ended up on I-64 West. I will have to revisit the signage on Google to see if I was distracted or if its signed poorly. I did not end up in East St Louis, which is the third choice offered after crossing. As of now the MLK is 2 lanes to Illinois but only 1 lane to Missouri. It was recently re-decked, but standing in LaCledes landing, that bridge vibrates a large amount for all the cars crossing. It still uses 1950's era steel pylons for the approaches.
I-70 from Wentzville to I-270 is a mega lane madhouse. Large mix of trucks, cars, local and travelers. The bridge over the Missouri is maxed out on lanes and it is somewhat old, surprised it has held up so well considering how much it is used.
MO-364/MO-94 is nice and relatively a new road, but underutilized from what I saw. Times to Weldon Springs were excellent.
On the Illinois side I drove I-64 out to IL-4. Going south to Mascoutah and then west to Belleville on IL-161, I was shocked to see how much development has taken place. The roads here seem to keep up and there were a large amount of intersection upgrades. This is probably driven by the massive new Boeing plant going in off IL-4 at Mid-America Airport. It will build the new carrier based drone for the Navy.
I noticed a large amount of closed businesses along I-64 just before IL-158. Hopefully the new plant will change that.
I know IDOT killed the IL-158 Bypass Plan a few years ago, but if the eastward development continues they are definitely going to need something to get traffic around the Metro East, just farther east.
Quote from: edwaleni on November 26, 2023, 04:07:00 PM
I-44 with its legacy routing based on US-66 and such with its curves, up and downs from downtown to Ballas Road is dated.
I think you may have a typo or the wrong road - Ballas Road doesn't make it to I-44.
Quote from: edwaleni on November 26, 2023, 04:07:00 PMThe exit ramp from I-64/I-55 the Poplar Street Bridge to I-44 west is still 15mph and near jacknife in quality. The Poplar Street Bridge and those service ramps for all of those splits still needs to be examined. I-70 got moved north to the Musial/Veterans but they need to start the splitting of routes in Illinois before you cross the river.
I'm not sure there's anything more than can be done for the west end of the existing PSB. There's probably some study out there that ruled out a better ramp design speed due to historic building impacts or other impacts from the project that widened the I-55 ramps. Splitting the ramps in Illinois would run into issues with access from IL 3.
Maybe a better solution will come during the future studies for the PSB replacement.
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 26, 2023, 09:27:01 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 26, 2023, 04:07:00 PM
I-44 with its legacy routing based on US-66 and such with its curves, up and downs from downtown to Ballas Road is dated.
I think you may have a typo or the wrong road - Ballas Road doesn't make it to I-44.
Quote from: edwaleni on November 26, 2023, 04:07:00 PMThe exit ramp from I-64/I-55 the Poplar Street Bridge to I-44 west is still 15mph and near jacknife in quality. The Poplar Street Bridge and those service ramps for all of those splits still needs to be examined. I-70 got moved north to the Musial/Veterans but they need to start the splitting of routes in Illinois before you cross the river.
I'm not sure there's anything more than can be done for the west end of the existing PSB. There's probably some study out there that ruled out a better ramp design speed due to historic building impacts or other impacts from the project that widened the I-55 ramps. Splitting the ramps in Illinois would run into issues with access from IL 3.
Maybe a better solution will come during the future studies for the PSB replacement.
Sorry, I meant Lindbergh, not Ballas. Ballas is up to the north, thanks for catching that.
As for the PSB replacement, I am all for it. I even remember when it opened!!
But the problem with *any* replacement was the fact that MoDOT was somewhat limited on how many acres they could get from the National Park Service which at the time was building out the Jefferson National Expansion complex. Even what they have today was controversial.
So either build a stacked double decked bridge and separate 64 from 55-44 traffic on the Illinois side with a flyover on the Missouri side, or build 2 bridges and use vacant land around 3rd and 4th Streets to complete the interchange. But that will probably require a rethink on the railroads coming through there.
One other thing that is gone. I think it was either the Spivey Building or one that has been recently torn down, there was a full grown tree growing on top of one of the abandoned tall buildings in East St Louis. I always thought it odd that here was a full grown maple or oak on top of a 10+ story building.
Turned up some older St. Louis sign photos tonight. Best find might a photo of an assembly at the former cloverleaf for I-70 with I-244 and I-270, complete with control cities of Kirkwood and Hazelwood. http://4sq.com/bJzAFl (http://4sq.com/bJzAFl)
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 29, 2023, 11:03:37 PM
Turned up some older St. Louis sign photos tonight. Best find might a photo of an assembly at the former cloverleaf for I-70 with I-244 and I-270, complete with control cities of Kirkwood and Hazelwood. http://4sq.com/bJzAFl (http://4sq.com/bJzAFl)
That's downright cool.
But man the site is finicky to use on mobile.
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 29, 2023, 11:03:37 PM
Turned up some older St. Louis sign photos tonight. Best find might a photo of an assembly at the former cloverleaf for I-70 with I-244 and I-270, complete with control cities of Kirkwood and Hazelwood. http://4sq.com/bJzAFl (http://4sq.com/bJzAFl)
Much better control cities than what are currently used. I-270 goes nowhere near Memphis or Chicago.
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 29, 2023, 11:03:37 PM
Turned up some older St. Louis sign photos tonight. Best find might a photo of an assembly at the former cloverleaf for I-70 with I-244 and I-270, complete with control cities of Kirkwood and Hazelwood. http://4sq.com/bJzAFl (http://4sq.com/bJzAFl)
I remember driving through here with this signage on the way to Oklahoma.