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Left Turn on Red at DDIs

Started by Dirt Roads, August 02, 2022, 10:58:12 AM

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Dirt Roads

When the new DDI at Exit 153 for NC-119 at I-85/I-40 in Mebane, North Carolina was still under construction, the left turn lanes from the off-ramps were temporarily protected with stop signs.  After a few years, the permanent left turn signals were installed.  Sure enough, I kept making left turns on red (same as with the stop signs) until I realized that North Carolina is still one of the states that prohibits left turns on red onto one way streets.  This isn't a problem yet, but since completion of the NC-119 Bypass around the west side of Mebane, traffic is starting to pick back up.  It seems to me that the "left turn on red" prohibition is significantly reducing the inherent throughput of the DDI.

Is this an issue in other states that still have the "left turn on red" prohibition?


andarcondadont

Legally, in Minnesota, a vehicle may make a left turn on red from a one-way to another one-way, unless otherwise posted. All but three of the DDI examples I looked through in my state have signs prohibiting left turns on red. They are:
- US 169 at MN 41 / Scott CSAH 78.
- MN 101 at Hennepin CSAH 144.
- US 52 at Olmstead County 31. (this one has yield signs)

I can imagine that "no left turn on red" signs at DDIs would create additional traffic backup, especially this one near the Mall of America and the MSP International Airport. But at this location and many others, I understand the possible need for those signs, especially with high thru-traffic.

Computer Science and GIS student at the University of Minnesota.

GaryV


rlb2024

Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 02, 2022, 10:58:12 AM
When the new DDI at Exit 153 for NC-119 at I-85/I-40 in Mebane, North Carolina was still under construction, the left turn lanes from the off-ramps were temporarily protected with stop signs.  After a few years, the permanent left turn signals were installed.  Sure enough, I kept making left turns on red (same as with the stop signs) until I realized that North Carolina is still one of the states that prohibits left turns on red onto one way streets.  This isn't a problem yet, but since completion of the NC-119 Bypass around the west side of Mebane, traffic is starting to pick back up.  It seems to me that the "left turn on red" prohibition is significantly reducing the inherent throughput of the DDI.

Is this an issue in other states that still have the "left turn on red" prohibition?
Wow, I didn't know that any state prohibited left turn on red from a one-way to a one-way.  It makes no sense.  My daughter lives in Charlotte and I'm up there quite a bit so I will have to watch out for that.

What states prohibit LTOR from a one-way to a one-way? They need to post signs at the state line stating that prohibition.  I know NC doesn't have any signage posted about that, and I've crossed the state line in many locations.

ran4sh

#4
The main thing reducing throughput of DDIs in my experience, is the fact that most people are unaware of the left turn on red being legal.

I haven't been to all the DDIs in Atlanta and/or Georgia, but some of the busier ones do have "No turn on red" signs (and have had them since being built).
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

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US 89

A lot of left turns at DDIs in Utah get red arrow traffic signals, which in Utah means you cannot turn on red even if not explicitly signed.

Some others, like the one at I-15 and 500 South in Bountiful, are explicitly signed with “Left on red after stop / left on red must yield to thru traffic”. Others, like the one at 201 and Bangerter in West Valley, have no signage but only have red ball signals instead of red arrows, suggesting a tacit approval of the maneuver.

Here’s the thing, though - I have never seen anyone turn left on red at any DDI where it wasn’t explicitly indicated as permitted. Nor have I done it myself. Utah doesn’t have a whole lot of one-way streets to begin with, so even though left on red from a one-way to a one-way is legal in Utah, not a lot of people know that’s allowed. And even among people who know the move is legal, even fewer will conceptualize a DDI left turn as this type of situation. I wouldn’t if not for this forum.

jakeroot

Like other states, WA also permits left-on-red (arrow/ball), even from a two-way street, but the only DDI in the state has no-turn-on-red for all movements (left and right turns).

There is another under construction (nearly; WA-18 @ I-90), so it remains to be seen whether this is a statewide policy, or just something they're experimenting with. WSDOT rarely signs NTOR to begin with.

ilpt4u

Of the Illinois DDIs:
The Marion one for The Hill Ave at I-57, the left turn onramp movements are controlled with Yield signs
The Aurora one for IL 59 at I-88, has a constant/steady Green Arrow for controlling the left turn onramp movements
The Romeoville one for Weber Rd at I-55, I have not traveled since it opened, and it is not yet on GSV, so no data
The Des Plaines one for Elmhurst Rd at I-90/Addams Tollway, the left movement onramps to the tollway are not traffic signal nor sign controlled at all!

I dont think IDOT nor ISTHA has snuck another one in across the state, but if they have, I am not sure where

ran4sh

Quote from: ilpt4u on August 04, 2022, 11:12:52 PM
Of the Illinois DDIs:
The Marion one for The Hill Ave at I-57, the left turn onramp movements are controlled with Yield signs
The Aurora one for IL 59 at I-88, has a constant/steady Green Arrow for controlling the left turn onramp movements
The Romeoville one for Weber Rd at I-55, I have not traveled since it opened, and it is not yet on GSV, so no data
The Des Plaines one for Elmhurst Rd at I-90/Addams Tollway, the left movement onramps to the tollway are not traffic signal nor sign controlled at all!

I dont think IDOT nor ISTHA has snuck another one in across the state, but if they have, I am not sure where

I would think left turn on red would be more applicable to the off-ramp turning left onto the surface street, not the on-ramp onto the freeway.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

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Dirt Roads

Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 11:17:01 PM
I would think left turn on red would be more applicable to the off-ramp turning left onto the surface street, not the on-ramp onto the freeway.

Indeed.  All of the DDIs that I have seen have the left-turns from the road onto the freeway separated from the traffic signal with a gore such that left turns are unimpeded (plus the opposing right turns have a Yield sign).  If I am correct, the concept of those unimpeded left-turns is the main benefit of the DDI arrangements.

steviep24

#10
New York normally allows left turn on red if turning left from a one way street onto another (outside of NYC). A lot of drivers don't seem to know about this though. LTOR is prohibited if a red arrow is displayed.

However, at New York's only DDI, at I 590, exit 1, the left turns on red are prohibited by sign. The signals there have red balls.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1072198,-77.5764121,3a,37.5y,83.11h,93.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suuyzZ33IcSODAAEdVBTR_g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1082267,-77.5752815,3a,37.5y,250.89h,90.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRdY0H-ip78ASCKIS9RFJjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&authuser=0

Signal with red ball displayed.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1082299,-77.5749218,3a,15y,256.25h,91.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYUYt-i3GnJ-0gR8iTSqpbA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&authuser=0


EDIT TO ADD: The DDI at I 590, exit 1 is no longer NY's only DDI. A DDI was recently constructed at NY 17, exit 131 as mentioned in RestrictOnTheHanger's post below and also here.

RestrictOnTheHanger

NY also has a DDI near the Woodbury Commons at the US6/NY17/NY32/Thruway junction, completed fairly recently. No signs nor red arrows prohibiting turns from what I remember.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/eU4Ko31hB3CxDCV56

Meanwhile this DDI in TN at I40 and TN66 has signs that explicitly state LTOR is allowed... Threw me for a loop when I drove through

https://maps.app.goo.gl/1LxfcLFCgo1tuDZA7


roadman65

Quote from: rlb2024 on August 02, 2022, 11:32:29 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 02, 2022, 10:58:12 AM
When the new DDI at Exit 153 for NC-119 at I-85/I-40 in Mebane, North Carolina was still under construction, the left turn lanes from the off-ramps were temporarily protected with stop signs.  After a few years, the permanent left turn signals were installed.  Sure enough, I kept making left turns on red (same as with the stop signs) until I realized that North Carolina is still one of the states that prohibits left turns on red onto one way streets.  This isn't a problem yet, but since completion of the NC-119 Bypass around the west side of Mebane, traffic is starting to pick back up.  It seems to me that the "left turn on red" prohibition is significantly reducing the inherent throughput of the DDI.

Is this an issue in other states that still have the "left turn on red" prohibition?
Wow, I didn't know that any state prohibited left turn on red from a one-way to a one-way.  It makes no sense.  My daughter lives in Charlotte and I'm up there quite a bit so I will have to watch out for that.

What states prohibit LTOR from a one-way to a one-way? They need to post signs at the state line stating that prohibition.  I know NC doesn't have any signage posted about that, and I've crossed the state line in many locations.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.



Plus NYC dont have signs to state it is the only place in the US that NTOR is the law automatically. Even with the rest of NY allowing turns on red, but being NY state law allows a city with a population over 8 million ( no other state city comes no where near that) to have the turns on red not applicable it stays the way it is.   Luckily for us who can identify the signal installations know even when we crossed the city limit to make the turn or not.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

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7/8

Quote from: rlb2024 on August 02, 2022, 11:32:29 AM
What states prohibit LTOR from a one-way to a one-way? They need to post signs at the state line stating that prohibition.  I know NC doesn't have any signage posted about that, and I've crossed the state line in many locations.

Agreed, at least on the major highways and exits from airports. They could use a similar sign to Montreal's, but just flip the "no right" to a "no left".


Quote from: roadman65 on August 05, 2022, 11:37:34 PM
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Plus NYC dont have signs to state it is the only place in the US that NTOR is the law automatically. Even with the rest of NY allowing turns on red, but being NY state law allows a city with a population over 8 million ( no other state city comes no where near that) to have the turns on red not applicable it stays the way it is.   Luckily for us who can identify the signal installations know even when we crossed the city limit to make the turn or not.

I agree that ignorance of the law is not a legal defence, but NYC should be signing their NTOR restrictions at major crossings and airport exits because realistically most people don't think to read the local traffic laws. The cost of adding some signs to me seems worth the benefit of informing tourists of the local law (especially since it impacts pedestrian safety). The goal shouldn't be to catch tourists breaking the law, but to keep them from breaking it in the first place.

I was going to recommend the Montreal sign for here to, but now I'm realizing the sign technically doesn't prohibit left on red, even though that is illegal in Montreal. A better version would show left and right turn restrictions on red to be extra clear.

Rothman

Quote from: roadman65 on August 05, 2022, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: rlb2024 on August 02, 2022, 11:32:29 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 02, 2022, 10:58:12 AM
When the new DDI at Exit 153 for NC-119 at I-85/I-40 in Mebane, North Carolina was still under construction, the left turn lanes from the off-ramps were temporarily protected with stop signs.  After a few years, the permanent left turn signals were installed.  Sure enough, I kept making left turns on red (same as with the stop signs) until I realized that North Carolina is still one of the states that prohibits left turns on red onto one way streets.  This isn't a problem yet, but since completion of the NC-119 Bypass around the west side of Mebane, traffic is starting to pick back up.  It seems to me that the "left turn on red" prohibition is significantly reducing the inherent throughput of the DDI.

Is this an issue in other states that still have the "left turn on red" prohibition?
Wow, I didn't know that any state prohibited left turn on red from a one-way to a one-way.  It makes no sense.  My daughter lives in Charlotte and I'm up there quite a bit so I will have to watch out for that.

What states prohibit LTOR from a one-way to a one-way? They need to post signs at the state line stating that prohibition.  I know NC doesn't have any signage posted about that, and I've crossed the state line in many locations.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.



Plus NYC dont have signs to state it is the only place in the US that NTOR is the law automatically. Even with the rest of NY allowing turns on red, but being NY state law allows a city with a population over 8 million ( no other state city comes no where near that) to have the turns on red not applicable it stays the way it is.   Luckily for us who can identify the signal installations know even when we crossed the city limit to make the turn or not.
NYC certainly used to sign that NTOR was City law in a few prominent places.  I'd be surprised if there was no signage whatsoever now.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

RestrictOnTheHanger

NTOR signs are still posted on major roads / highways that enter the city, as well as leaving airports.

mrsman

Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on August 07, 2022, 10:21:01 AM
NTOR signs are still posted on major roads / highways that enter the city, as well as leaving airports.

That's correct.  There is some form of the sign when crossing the city limits at practically every major entry.  Given its location, the number of entries are somwhat limited, due to the water.  There is no entry for cars from the south at all, and there are only 6 entries from the west at bridges and tunnels.  From the north, you have the Bronx/Westchester line, but the majority of that boundary is either Van Cortlandt Park or Pelham Park, so most people are still restricted from entering at a finite number of points (expressways, parkways, and major streets for the most part).  From the east, you have the Queens/Nassau line and while there are many points of entry, every major one has signage.  Plus, it is hard to believe that someone driving in from Long Island is unfamiliar with the NYC rule.

Here is one at Union Turnpike at the Nassau/Queens border:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7524245,-73.7019147,3a,15y,223.3h,92.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soT5vWerBzMcYA_E51vWqVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The issue that I have is that I don't think it's good enough.  Since it is couter to the national law that permits RTOR everywhere else, NYC should justify each and every application at each intersections and provide appropriate signage at each relevant intersection.  While there are certain rules that a city could put up as a default ordinance that applies citywide (for instance manny have a global overnight parking restriction or an overall speed limit), I don't think a traffic rule that differs from the rest of the country should be covered by simply providing a sign at the city limit.

Rothman

Quote from: mrsman on August 07, 2022, 08:32:15 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on August 07, 2022, 10:21:01 AM
NTOR signs are still posted on major roads / highways that enter the city, as well as leaving airports.

That's correct.  There is some form of the sign when crossing the city limits at practically every major entry.  Given its location, the number of entries are somwhat limited, due to the water.  There is no entry for cars from the south at all, and there are only 6 entries from the west at bridges and tunnels.  From the north, you have the Bronx/Westchester line, but the majority of that boundary is either Van Cortlandt Park or Pelham Park, so most people are still restricted from entering at a finite number of points (expressways, parkways, and major streets for the most part).  From the east, you have the Queens/Nassau line and while there are many points of entry, every major one has signage.  Plus, it is hard to believe that someone driving in from Long Island is unfamiliar with the NYC rule.

Here is one at Union Turnpike at the Nassau/Queens border:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7524245,-73.7019147,3a,15y,223.3h,92.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soT5vWerBzMcYA_E51vWqVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The issue that I have is that I don't think it's good enough.  Since it is couter to the national law that permits RTOR everywhere else, NYC should justify each and every application at each intersections and provide appropriate signage at each relevant intersection.  While there are certain rules that a city could put up as a default ordinance that applies citywide (for instance manny have a global overnight parking restriction or an overall speed limit), I don't think a traffic rule that differs from the rest of the country should be covered by simply providing a sign at the city limit.
Feel free to die on that hill, then.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Revive 755

Quote from: rlb2024 on August 02, 2022, 11:32:29 AM
What states prohibit LTOR from a one-way to a one-way?

AFAIK Missouri still does.



As for left turns from the exits at DDI's in Illinois:

* I-88 at IL 59:  Not allowed on red EB exit Streetview, WB exit Streetview.  This does not allow right turns on red either.

* I-90 at Elmhurst Road:  Not allowed on red.  EB exit Streetview, WB exit Streetview.  This one does not allow rights on red either.

* I-57 at the Hill Avenue in Marion:  Has 'Left Turn On Red After Stop' signs.  SB exit Streetview, NB exit Streetview



I-40 at TN 66 allows lefts on red, complete with non-MUTCD compliant upward pointing red arrows.  EB exit Streetview, WB exit Streetview.  At least WB also appears to use circular yellow indications between the green arrows and red arrows.

jeffandnicole

Personally, there's a bit of a gray area in which LTOR is permitted at a DDI.  Granted, I'm not going to read every state's law here, but in general, the laws state that motorists may turn left on red from a one way street to a one way street.  DDIs aren't one way streets.  They're two way streets, but the movement of traffic is on the opposite side of the roadway.  There can be arguments made on both sides of the issue, but on the strict interpretation of the statute, they are probably often illegal turns.

The biggest argument you can come after me with is that the left turn is made onto the nearest roadway or lane, similar to a normal right turn on red.  And while that's true, that's not what the laws and statutes state in writing.

Quote from: rlb2024 on August 02, 2022, 11:32:29 AM
What states prohibit LTOR from a one-way to a one-way? They need to post signs at the state line stating that prohibition.  I know NC doesn't have any signage posted about that, and I've crossed the state line in many locations.

The law in every state is a motorist must stop at a red light. The *exception* is that you may turn right on red after a full stop.  Many states also have an *exception* that you may turn left on red from a one way street to a one way street after a full stop.  It's those states that should be signing the exception.

You also get into an issue of requiring states to monitor every other state's ever-changing laws.  Once the majority of states allows something, why is it the responsibility of the other states now in the minority to sign a law or rule that doesn't apply to them?

jakeroot

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 07, 2022, 11:17:26 PM
DDIs aren't one way streets....There can be arguments made on both sides of the issue, but on the strict interpretation of the statute, they are probably often illegal turns.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Around here, Washington State signs them as two one-way streets. The ramps are also signed:

https://goo.gl/maps/85YQ4c1ed4r49qFS7

ran4sh

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 07, 2022, 11:17:26 PM

Quote from: rlb2024 on August 02, 2022, 11:32:29 AM
What states prohibit LTOR from a one-way to a one-way? They need to post signs at the state line stating that prohibition.  I know NC doesn't have any signage posted about that, and I've crossed the state line in many locations.

The law in every state is a motorist must stop at a red light. The *exception* is that you may turn right on red after a full stop.  Many states also have an *exception* that you may turn left on red from a one way street to a one way street after a full stop.  It's those states that should be signing the exception.

You also get into an issue of requiring states to monitor every other state's ever-changing laws.  Once the majority of states allows something, why is it the responsibility of the other states now in the minority to sign a law or rule that doesn't apply to them?

I agree, this is why I don't believe NC etc should have to post signs that LTOR is not allowed. It's not that NC and those other states actually decided to prohibit LTOR, but rather, they never added the LTOR exception to their law, and every time it's brought up results in the usual arguments that government has more important things to deal with and shouldn't waste time debating whether to add that law.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

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SkyPesos

#22
Ohio allows LTOR between two one-way streets, and the signage choices at our DDI seem to reflect this. Of the 3 DDI in the state that I'm aware of, two of them (I-75 exit 19 and I-270 exit 10) sign "No turn on red", while the third (I-475 exit 2) sign "Left on red after stop".

jakeroot

Quote from: ran4sh on August 07, 2022, 11:36:38 PM
It's not that NC and those other states actually decided to prohibit LTOR, but rather, they never added the LTOR exception to their law, and every time it's brought up results in the usual arguments that government has more important things to deal with and shouldn't waste time debating whether to add that law.

What exception? In virtually every case, left and right on red were made legal at the same time. I'm sure in many states, as is the case here in WA (RCW 46.61.055, section 3), the same statute making right on red legal also makes left on red legal. NC specifically chose to leave out left turns, and that's odd.

1995hoo

Virginia allows lefts on red from one-way streets to other one-way streets, although I'd wager 99 percent of drivers have no clue it's allowed (one person once told me I didn't know what I was talking about when I said she could go left on red, and she refused to accept it even after I sent her a link to the statute). The only DDI I regularly pass through in Virginia is signed for no turn on red on both the left turns and the right turns (the latter annoyed me very much on Saturday when I really needed to take a leak and got stuck at the red light), but at this DDI I can see why the landscaping on the islands might be a reason to disallow turns on red. A look at the Zion Crossroads DDI reveals no lefts on red are allowed despite no landscaping on the islands (no rights on red, either).

I could see why the left on red might generally be disallowed at DDIs because the driver is on the far side of the car relative to oncoming traffic and also has to turn his head far more than he would have to at an ordinary intersection where the streets are more or less perpendicular to each other. I wonder if VDOT's prohibition of right on red at DDIs might have something to do with the idea that drivers unfamiliar with the configuration might be looking in the wrong place for oncoming traffic. I have no idea whether that's the reason, but it doesn't seem like a crazy idea.
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