Here's something you won't see on NotJustBikes
(https://i.imgur.com/gUJtYQO.jpg)
A2
(https://i.imgur.com/qre9dzH.jpg)
A4
(https://i.imgur.com/IU6HWbf.jpg)
On this portion of the A1, they've even got reversible lanes!
(https://i.imgur.com/8iJhn0Y.jpg)
Amsterdam's main beltway, the A10 is having its southern portion buried and widened from 8 lanes to 12
(https://i.imgur.com/n61SLec.jpg)
And that's just the start. A planned widening of the A27 near Utrecht would see the freeway widened to 14 lanes
what's your point
My point is that the Dutch have not in fact solved all their transportation problems with bike lanes, despite what many will have you believe.
I'll bet their asphalt lasts more than ten years, too.
They may have wide freeways, but the important part imo is that there's plenty of high-quality alternative ways to get around in the Netherlands (trains, trams, bikes, etc), giving people a choice on how they would like to get around. This is something the US lacks, where everyone is forced to drive in most places, and that there's no alternative methods. It's my main issue with transportation in the US, not just a plan "hurr durr cars/roads are bad" that you see on reddit.
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 27, 2022, 10:58:30 PM
They may have wide freeways, but the important part imo is that there's plenty of high-quality alternative ways to get around in the Netherlands (trains, trams, bikes, etc), giving people a choice on how they would like to get around. This is something the US lacks, where everyone is forced to drive in most places, and that there's no alternative methods. It's my main issue with transportation in the US, not just a plan "hurr durr cars/roads are bad" that you see on reddit.
America has far less congestion than Europe. We're doing something right.
Quote from: kernals12 on May 27, 2022, 11:08:21 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 27, 2022, 10:58:30 PM
They may have wide freeways, but the important part imo is that there's plenty of high-quality alternative ways to get around in the Netherlands (trains, trams, bikes, etc), giving people a choice on how they would like to get around. This is something the US lacks, where everyone is forced to drive in most places, and that there's no alternative methods. It's my main issue with transportation in the US, not just a plan "hurr durr cars/roads are bad" that you see on reddit.
America has far less congestion than Europe. We're doing something right.
None of the images of Dutch freeways you posted look congested either, so I guess they're doing it right as well.
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 27, 2022, 11:18:26 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 27, 2022, 11:08:21 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 27, 2022, 10:58:30 PM
They may have wide freeways, but the important part imo is that there's plenty of high-quality alternative ways to get around in the Netherlands (trains, trams, bikes, etc), giving people a choice on how they would like to get around. This is something the US lacks, where everyone is forced to drive in most places, and that there's no alternative methods. It's my main issue with transportation in the US, not just a plan "hurr durr cars/roads are bad" that you see on reddit.
America has far less congestion than Europe. We're doing something right.
None of the images of Dutch freeways you posted look congested either, so I guess they're doing it right as well.
If we look at actual data, we see that American cities dominate the list of least congested
https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/
Quote from: kernals12 on May 28, 2022, 12:25:33 AM
If we look at actual data, we see that American cities dominate the list of least congested
https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/
Looking through the data, Dutch cities are pretty low as well. For example, Amsterdam at 18% and Utrecht at 15% seems pretty good to me.
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 27, 2022, 11:18:26 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 27, 2022, 11:08:21 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 27, 2022, 10:58:30 PM
They may have wide freeways, but the important part imo is that there's plenty of high-quality alternative ways to get around in the Netherlands (trains, trams, bikes, etc), giving people a choice on how they would like to get around. This is something the US lacks, where everyone is forced to drive in most places, and that there's no alternative methods. It's my main issue with transportation in the US, not just a plan "hurr durr cars/roads are bad" that you see on reddit.
America has far less congestion than Europe. We're doing something right.
None of the images of Dutch freeways you posted look congested either, so I guess they're doing it right as well.
Dear heavens...can't handle a silly statement like this, this early in the morning.
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 28, 2022, 01:20:51 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 28, 2022, 12:25:33 AM
If we look at actual data, we see that American cities dominate the list of least congested
https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/
Looking through the data, Dutch cities are pretty low as well. For example, Amsterdam at 18% and Utrecht at 15% seems pretty good to me.
...because of their big roads. :D
Quote from: kernals12 on May 27, 2022, 09:57:37 PM
My point is that the Dutch have not in fact solved all their transportation problems with bike lanes, despite what many will have you believe.
I'm from the Netherlands and this is a point I often like to make. The Dutch cycling infrastructure is not just good, it's a whole separate class compared to any other country in the world. Yet, the modal split is almost 80% car. It's actually only a few percentage points lower than European countries that do not have any cycling culture. Dutch public transit usage is relatively low because cycling is often faster in cities. Cycling options are great, but overall it's less of a revolutionary change in transportation than many advocates make it out to be.
Most people seem to think that densification is required for cycling to work. But that is not the case. The Netherlands is largely not a densely built urban environment, but mostly a single-family residential environment. This allows for cycling infrastructure to be mostly separate from roads, including grade-separation. In the Netherlands, cycling is in fact better in suburban areas than in the city cores, where there is less space and more stops. This is also good for drivers: unlike other countries, cyclists don't have to share busy roads with cars.
The Netherlands lacks very large cities. By far most Dutch people live in cities with a population under 200,000. These cities are compact, but not particularly dense. This means that cycling distances are often doable. However commuting is often between cities. Which is where the motorways come into play. The Netherlands has the second-busiest motorway network in Europe (after the UK). The busiest road in the Netherlands is A4 at the Hague, it carries 280,000 vehicles per day. These are traffic volumes you also find in Los Angeles or Houston.
I also like to add that a tourist perspective of transportation is often very different from a daily routine like commuting, running errands, going to family or for recreation. Many tourists visit Amsterdam and are amazed that almost nobody seems to be driving a car. But they do not see the 8 - 10 - 12 lane motorways around Amsterdam.
Quote from: DenverBrian on May 27, 2022, 10:02:17 PM
I'll bet their asphalt lasts more than ten years, too.
The Netherlands uses porous asphalt on almost the entire motorway system. This asphalt reduces noise and has superior drainage capabilities. You can drive 80 mph in heavy rain without any spray.
The life cycle of porous asphalt is around 10 years on the right lane (where most trucks are) and a little more on the left lanes. The Netherlands has a maintenance cycle of only resurfacing the top layer (during night or weekend closures). This means there are almost no long-term construction zones. It also eliminates the need to replace it down to the foundation for the most part. Some motorways still have layers of asphalt dating back to the 1960s.
I didn't include any photos of 8 lane freeways because those have become extremely common. I think Holland has the widest freeways in Europe now. You'd be hard pressed to find roads with more than 6 lanes in France, Germany, or England.
Another thing that bugs me is the claim that Holland was a car dependent country in the 1970s, and the only evidence given for that are photos of Amsterdam before they pedestrianized their streets. That is the opposite of the truth. Holland's passenger car fleet has tripled since those photos were taken. Just recently, they passed the milestone of 1 car for every 2 people. In fact, all the traffic calming, the bike lanes, they car free downtowns are how the Dutch have chosen to manage the explosion in the number of cars on their roads.
The Netherlands was one of the first countries to construct freeways in the 1930s, by World War II, the Netherlands had the largest freeway network in Europe after Germany, in fact it may have had the third-longest freeway network in the world at that time (after the U.S. & Germany).
However car ownership was still pretty low at that time. Car ownership exploded after World War II, there was a brief period of time, especially in the 1950s and early 1960s, when almost everything was still centered in the historic town and city squares, which turned into large parking lots. However later in the 1960s, new suburban neighborhoods were built and the importance of city centers declined significantly, this also gave the opportunity to shift car usage mainly to those new areas and pedestrianize old towns.
It should be noted that the Netherlands has had the largest population growth in Europe after World War II, the population grew from 9.3 million in 1945 to 15.5 million by 1995. Highway construction initially kept pace with this large population growth, but it started to lag after the 1980s. A major change occurred in the early 1990s when women entered the workforce, female labor participation changed very rapidly in only a few years. As a result, the vehicle miles traveled exploded during the 1990s. On some motorways the traffic volume doubled in less than 15 years.
It was forecasted in the early 2000s that the Dutch population growth would slow significantly. However due to mass migration, population growth continued and the projection of 17 million inhabitants was achieved in less than half the time experts thought it would. The Dutch population is still growing by a million people each decade and population projections have shifted upward to over 20 million.
This is a small country and this scale of growth has proven unsustainable in many areas: natural values, traffic congestion, public transport overcrowding, even bike lane overcrowding is a thing. There is a huge housing crisis ongoing, housing prices have essentially doubled in a decade while incomes did not, making it practically impossible for young people to get into the housing market. I know several 30-somethings that have a stable, good-paying job, but live with their parents because they cannot find a house.
I would guess one of the reasons the Netherlands has such a cycling culture is because it's so flat. Without significant grades, even 80-year-olds can cycle around pretty easily.
Quote from: DenverBrian on May 28, 2022, 03:27:43 PM
I would guess one of the reasons the Netherlands has such a cycling culture is because it's so flat. Without significant grades, even 80-year-olds can cycle around pretty easily.
So, you're saying the Netherlands is the Illinois of Europe?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 28, 2022, 03:37:47 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on May 28, 2022, 03:27:43 PM
I would guess one of the reasons the Netherlands has such a cycling culture is because it's so flat. Without significant grades, even 80-year-olds can cycle around pretty easily.
So, you're saying the Netherlands is the Illinois of Europe?
I think it's closer to Florida, topographically and climactically.
Quote from: kernals12 on May 28, 2022, 05:30:50 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 28, 2022, 03:37:47 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on May 28, 2022, 03:27:43 PM
I would guess one of the reasons the Netherlands has such a cycling culture is because it's so flat. Without significant grades, even 80-year-olds can cycle around pretty easily.
So, you're saying the Netherlands is the Illinois of Europe?
I think it's closer to Florida, topographically and climactically.
Clearly you are not an acolyte of the Church of Wallethub:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30421.msg2741847#new
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 28, 2022, 03:37:47 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on May 28, 2022, 03:27:43 PM
I would guess one of the reasons the Netherlands has such a cycling culture is because it's so flat. Without significant grades, even 80-year-olds can cycle around pretty easily.
So, you're saying the Netherlands is the Illinois of Europe?
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30387.0
Here are some photos of A1 at Muiden, just east of Amsterdam, which has 10 lanes + 2 reversible lanes. The reversible lanes are actually a regional system that stretch across 3 different freeways (A1, A6 & A9).
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48851735112_cccb9f9ebe_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hqRUT3)
A1 Muiderberg 01 (https://flic.kr/p/2hqRUT3) by European Roads (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48851546051_4fe987567a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hqQWFn)
A1 Muiderberg 04 (https://flic.kr/p/2hqQWFn) by European Roads (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48851189823_077b3516bc_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hqP7Mv)
A1 Muiderberg 09 (https://flic.kr/p/2hqP7Mv) by European Roads (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48884692443_e95825da91_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2htLPWT)
A1 Aquaduct Vechtzicht Muiden 02 (https://flic.kr/p/2htLPWT) by European Roads (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/), on Flickr
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 28, 2022, 06:00:50 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 28, 2022, 03:37:47 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on May 28, 2022, 03:27:43 PM
I would guess one of the reasons the Netherlands has such a cycling culture is because it's so flat. Without significant grades, even 80-year-olds can cycle around pretty easily.
So, you're saying the Netherlands is the Illinois of Europe?
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30387.0
I'm amused how that was a thing and I didn't even remember it.
The main difference is that while the Netherlands has really wide freeways, none of them go through the city center. All of these examples of wide freeways are freeways on the edge of a city (or in the suburbs), or freeways connecting two cities together.
Quote from: compdude787 on May 31, 2022, 01:48:30 AM
The main difference is that while the Netherlands has really wide freeways, none of them go through the city center. All of these examples of wide freeways are freeways on the edge of a city (or in the suburbs), or freeways connecting two cities together.
That's generally the case in the US too. Most of our downtown freeways are 8 lanes at most.
The Netherlands did not have a history of central business districts in the city center, so there was less of a need to build freeways into cities. In fact almost all freeways in the Netherlands were built on undeveloped alignments, there was no large-scale right of way clearing in urban areas, as occurred in the U.S.
The first national road plan of 1927 had the national roads intersecting in the cities. This was moved to large junctions outside cities in the 1938 plan. These were initially planned as large traffic circles. This was changed to free-flow interchanges in the late 1950s. Several of the most famous interchanges in the Netherlands started their life as a traffic circle.
Some random points.
The Netherlands is very dense by North American standards - New Jersey is close, but not quite as dense. And despite mostly being single family housing it's not US style suburban sprawl - it's clustered into compact towns with fields between. Local journeys are very cycleable as the distances involved are fairly short - even in villages it's usually not far to a town and it's amenities. Likewise, even without freeways to/through the centre, the big cities ring road motorways aren't too far out and your 'last mile' surface road journey through an urban area is not going to be more than 5 miles (as an extreme). It's not London where you could end up doing 15 miles on rubbish radial roads.
The Dutch take transport by all modes seriously, but roads are low in the priority pile compared to its usage. They want the carrot method of reducing road traffic by having people attracted to using the quality trains, cycling, etc. They used to go with a more stick like approach on the roads and went for a good decade doing low effort-low reward road congestion solutions like shoulder running. However they decided the carrot was enough and so have nearly finished a large scale rebuilding and widening of the places that needed it, with a few new highways designed to relieve existing ones also being built.
To be fair to the pro-bikes/transit lobby that ignore this important part of why the Netherlands has good transportation, the Dutch made improvements to the alternative modes in a corridor before they rebuilt the freeways to be high quality. The building your roads better part of Dutch transport is something that happened after they did all the other stuff, or, at best, alongside.
Braided ramps exist at a number of locations in the Netherlands.
1. A2 Eindhoven. AADT = 196,000
(https://i.imgur.com/TtXmGgz.jpg)
2. A4 The Hague. AADT = 280,000
(https://i.imgur.com/TaQP03b.jpg)
3. A12 Utrecht. AADT = 232,000
(https://i.imgur.com/amZyD80.jpg)
Quote from: Chris on May 28, 2022, 07:49:59 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 27, 2022, 09:57:37 PM
My point is that the Dutch have not in fact solved all their transportation problems with bike lanes, despite what many will have you believe.
I'm from the Netherlands and this is a point I often like to make. The Dutch cycling infrastructure is not just good, it's a whole separate class compared to any other country in the world. Yet, the modal split is almost 80% car. It's actually only a few percentage points lower than European countries that do not have any cycling culture. Dutch public transit usage is relatively low because cycling is often faster in cities. Cycling options are great, but overall it's less of a revolutionary change in transportation than many advocates make it out to be.
Most people seem to think that densification is required for cycling to work. But that is not the case. The Netherlands is largely not a densely built urban environment, but mostly a single-family residential environment. This allows for cycling infrastructure to be mostly separate from roads, including grade-separation. In the Netherlands, cycling is in fact better in suburban areas than in the city cores, where there is less space and more stops. This is also good for drivers: unlike other countries, cyclists don't have to share busy roads with cars.
The Netherlands lacks very large cities. By far most Dutch people live in cities with a population under 200,000. These cities are compact, but not particularly dense. This means that cycling distances are often doable. However commuting is often between cities. Which is where the motorways come into play. The Netherlands has the second-busiest motorway network in Europe (after the UK). The busiest road in the Netherlands is A4 at the Hague, it carries 280,000 vehicles per day. These are traffic volumes you also find in Los Angeles or Houston.
I also like to add that a tourist perspective of transportation is often very different from a daily routine like commuting, running errands, going to family or for recreation. Many tourists visit Amsterdam and are amazed that almost nobody seems to be driving a car. But they do not see the 8 - 10 - 12 lane motorways around Amsterdam.
Its a sampling issue here. I would have guessed Trams, Trolleys and Metros would have been higher in some of the cities in the Netherlands like Rotterdam and Amsterdam given that the filming were near the center of those respective cities.
Quote from: kernals12 on May 28, 2022, 12:25:33 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 27, 2022, 11:18:26 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 27, 2022, 11:08:21 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 27, 2022, 10:58:30 PM
They may have wide freeways, but the important part imo is that there's plenty of high-quality alternative ways to get around in the Netherlands (trains, trams, bikes, etc), giving people a choice on how they would like to get around. This is something the US lacks, where everyone is forced to drive in most places, and that there's no alternative methods. It's my main issue with transportation in the US, not just a plan "hurr durr cars/roads are bad" that you see on reddit.
America has far less congestion than Europe. We're doing something right.
None of the images of Dutch freeways you posted look congested either, so I guess they're doing it right as well.
If we look at actual data, we see that American cities dominate the list of least congested
https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/
I bet Kyiv isn't third-worst in the world anymore.
Given how low Boston is on the list, where many other lists have Boston as top 5 or even worse, I wonder which ones you can believe.
Quote from: SectorZ on July 24, 2022, 08:49:29 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 28, 2022, 12:25:33 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 27, 2022, 11:18:26 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 27, 2022, 11:08:21 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 27, 2022, 10:58:30 PM
They may have wide freeways, but the important part imo is that there's plenty of high-quality alternative ways to get around in the Netherlands (trains, trams, bikes, etc), giving people a choice on how they would like to get around. This is something the US lacks, where everyone is forced to drive in most places, and that there's no alternative methods. It's my main issue with transportation in the US, not just a plan "hurr durr cars/roads are bad" that you see on reddit.
America has far less congestion than Europe. We're doing something right.
None of the images of Dutch freeways you posted look congested either, so I guess they're doing it right as well.
If we look at actual data, we see that American cities dominate the list of least congested
https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/
I bet Kyiv isn't third-worst in the world anymore.
It may actually be worse now–I think some of the road infrastructure (bridges mainly) got damaged in March, and I'm not sure whether Ukravtodor has gotten around to fixing things yet (there are understandably other priorities). Now that Russia has pulled back from Kyiv Oblast to focus more on Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson oblasts, people are back to their normal routines in Kyiv.