I've read a lot on the great Pan American highway, and find it fascinating how one could drive from Alaska to the tip of southern Argentina (save the Darien Gap). Has anybody here ever driven portions of the Pan American Highway?
Was there ever a proposed routing for the Pan Am Highway in the US? I know it was never signed, but I do know that I-35 had sections of it called the Pan American Freeway. (or was that I-25?)
Has anybody ever attempted the full trek? I had done some planning in college to actually attempt the central American portion with my roommates, but it was scrapped for safety concerns and expenses.
I believe the Panamericana runs across portions of the I-25 yes :nod:
It's also partially a freeway in Peru and Chile. Chile is quite a modern country, lots of expressways and freeways, also outside urban areas. I think it might be the most developed country in South America.
I remember reading about the Chilean portions of the Pan Am highway, and it is one of the better kept sections of highway in South America. I also believe it contains the highest point as it ascends into the Andes.
It'd be cool to drive it someday....
Canada, like the US, also doesn't have an "official" routing of the Pan-American highway.
I-35 is typically considered our branch of the Pan-American in recent years, but historically it has been US-85/I-25 (the Canam Highway)
QuoteI-35 is typically considered our branch of the Pan-American in recent years, but historically it has been US-85/I-25 (the Canam Hi
Which is funny since I-35 doesn't connect Canada and Mexico. :-P
As a lifelong highway geek, I love this forum. Google Earth has opened up a whole new world to me as I am able to "see" the highway systems of other countries.
Back to the topic. While Google Earthing the country of Chile, I noticed their Federal Highway 5 is an Interstate standards expressway and tollroad through a significant portion of the country. I believe that this route is also considered the Pan American Highway at this point.
It is nice to see other nations upgrading their highway systems to the equal of the USA and Europe.
I would love to see Chile and Argentina attempt to build at least one expressway through the Andes between Santiago and Buenos Aires. I would love to be on the engineering team!
Maybe they should have an official route in the US designated the Pan-American Highway.
Quote from: Hellfighter06Maybe they should have an official route in the US designated the Pan-American Highway.
I nominate US 83 for this designation.
QuoteI nominate US 83 for this designation.
Not a bad choice at all! I think I'd nominate I-35, switching to I-29 in Kansas City for a Mexico to Canada routing.
I'd rather have US 95...goes through some great spots..
If I recall correctly, the Pan-Am Highway 'starts' in Deadhorse, AK, and winds its way down to the US via Fairbanks and the Alaska Highway. As I-25 is known as the Pan-American Highway in New Mexico, it's safe to surmise that it is one of the official routings (and there is at least one other in the US), making the route thus:
AK11, I-A1(AK2), YK1, BC97, BC2, AB43, AB16. From Edmonton, this is conjecture:
AB2, US89 (or AB2, AB3, AB4, I-15), US 87 onto I-25.
I-25(US85), I-10(US85) into El Paso and Ciudad Juarez.
Conjecture again: MX45(D), MX49(D), MX57(D), MX150(D), MX145(D), MX180(D), MX190(D), Guatemala CA1, El Salvador 1, Honduras 1, Nicaragua (Google doesn't have its route numbers up), Costa Rica 1, 34, 2, Panama (route numbers not up).
I thought there was no official routing in the US and Canada.
There isn't. The closest we have is I-25 in New Mexico. The rest is conjecture and deduction.
not much of a route when the largest and second-largest countries by GDP that are supposedly on the route don't even acknowledge it.
It's on par with the UK not acknowledging the E routes that run through the isles ;)
Reviving a vintage thread ...
This Jan. 27, 2012 article (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-27/rebel-retreat-leads-condor-to-seek-ipo-to-fund-highways.html) indicates that Colombia is experiencing a surge in infrastructure construction, and that construction of the Darien Gap "missing link" may be one of the projects:
Quote
Construcciones El Condor SA, a Medellin-based construction company, aims to raise as much as 200 billion pesos ($111 million) in an initial public offering to help finance Bogota's airport expansion and jungle highway projects in areas once overrun by guerrillas.
Proceeds from a sale in the first quarter will help fund a backlog of 1.3 trillion pesos in projects, including the airport, Luz Maria Correa, the company's president, said in an interview. Condor will bid on new contracts as Colombia works to improve roads and bridges to take full advantage of a U.S. free- trade accord approved by lawmakers in October, she said.
"Colombia's infrastructure is way behind and the shipping routes must be improved ahead of the free-trade agreement," Correa said yesterday in an interview in Bogota ....
Condor shares will give investors exposure to Colombia's surge in building, said Rupert Stebbings, a director for Celfin Capital in Medellin. Shares of Grupo Odinsa SA, which joined with Condor in 2010 to win a 1.1 trillion peso bid to pave a highway that runs to the borders of Panama and Venezuela, have risen 10 percent in the past 12 months, compared with a 10 percent drop in the country's benchmark stock index. Condor is a minority shareholder in Odinsa.
"Construction in this country will be a driver of growth for the next five to 10 years," Stebbings said. "Infrastructure are the big elephant projects that could last 10 to 20 years." ....
Condor is part of the consortium Vias de las Americas SAS, which also includes Odinsa and Valorcon SA, which won in 2010 the contract for the Transversal de Las Americas highway that would improve road networks between Colombia's borders with Panama and Venezuela. Correa said the company seeks to build a second phase of that project which, if approved by the government, would complete the Panamerican highway network that stretches from Alaska to Chile by building a road through the Darien gap along the jungle-laden Panama border. [emphasis added]
Will Colombian and Panamanian governments finally agree to build it? If so, maybe it is time for the U.S. and Canada to finally designate an "official route" for the Pan American Highway (I can just imagine the squabbling ... :fight:)
Resurrect 789!
Interesting in that even if/when the Darien Gap is crossed, as the road network in South America is currently wired together, in order to drive from it to, let's say, Rio de Janeiro, without using ferries, one would have to go by way of Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia, complete with a crossing of the Andes. This is because in Brazil, there is a complete non-ferry road system disconnect at the Amazon River. There is a massive new bridge about to open at Manaus, Amazonas state, Brazil, but it only crosses the Rio Negro, not the nearly Amazon. The major Brazilian highway that runs southward from Manaus to the rest of Brazil south of the Amazon, along with Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay, still uses a ferry to cross the Amazon.
I would suspect that the continent is very fertile country for 'fictional highway' musings for South American roadgeeks.
:nod:
Mike
Quote from: Steve on February 20, 2012, 08:11:42 PM
Resurrect 789!
Just don't advertise the fact that 789 once had an ... ahem ... "overlap" with U.S. 666! :evilgrin:
Quote from: Grzrd on February 20, 2012, 08:53:49 PM
Just don't advertise the fact that 789 once had an ... ahem ... "overlap" with U.S. 666! :evilgrin:
what's wrong with the word "multiplex"?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 20, 2012, 09:02:50 PM
what's wrong with the word "multiplex"?
Nothing. Makes a compelling argument to see ol' 789 back in action.
and ol' 666, for that matter.
can we petition for a reversal of superstitious cowardice?
Quote from: mgk920 on February 20, 2012, 08:42:00 PM
Interesting in that even if/when the Darien Gap is crossed, as the road network in South America is currently wired together, in order to drive from it to, let's say, Rio de Janeiro, without using ferries, one would have to go by way of Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia, complete with a crossing of the Andes. This is because in Brazil, there is a complete non-ferry road system disconnect at the Amazon River. There is a massive new bridge about to open at Manaus, Amazonas state, Brazil, but it only crosses the Rio Negro, not the nearly Amazon. The major Brazilian highway that runs southward from Manaus to the rest of Brazil south of the Amazon, along with Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay, still uses a ferry to cross the Amazon.
I would suspect that the continent is very fertile country for 'fictional highway' musings for South American roadgeeks.
:nod:
Mike
Wonder how far up the Amazon you'd have to go to be able to drive a pier into the river? That's one fierce flow.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 20, 2012, 09:27:22 PM
and ol' 666, for that matter.
can we petition for a reversal of superstitious cowardice?
Oh, that's a loaded question in this day when those of us who espouse science are accused of opposing it.
Quote from: Steve on February 20, 2012, 10:17:02 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 20, 2012, 08:42:00 PM
Interesting in that even if/when the Darien Gap is crossed, as the road network in South America is currently wired together, in order to drive from it to, let's say, Rio de Janeiro, without using ferries, one would have to go by way of Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia, complete with a crossing of the Andes. This is because in Brazil, there is a complete non-ferry road system disconnect at the Amazon River. There is a massive new bridge about to open at Manaus, Amazonas state, Brazil, but it only crosses the Rio Negro, not the nearly Amazon. The major Brazilian highway that runs southward from Manaus to the rest of Brazil south of the Amazon, along with Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay, still uses a ferry to cross the Amazon.
I would suspect that the continent is very fertile country for 'fictional highway' musings for South American roadgeeks.
:nod:
Mike
Wonder how far up the Amazon you'd have to go to be able to drive a pier into the river? That's one fierce flow.
I'm thinking that one should be able to build an Amazon River bridge at Manaus, one is nearly open on the Negro there and that river has about an equal water flow rate as the Amazon at that point. Yes, that is one looooong bridge. The confluence of those two rivers is just east of the city.
IIRC, authorities do have long-range plans for an Amazon bridge there, too.
See:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=-3.140516,-60.292969&spn=6.917805,7.064209&t=m&z=7
The north branch is the Negro, the south the Amazon. Zoom in to see the Rio Negro bridge under construction.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on February 20, 2012, 11:59:11 PM
I'm thinking that one should be able to build an Amazon River bridge at Manaus, one is nearly open on the Negro there and that river has about an equal water flow rate as the Amazon at that point. Yes, that is one looooong bridge. The confluence of those two rivers is just east of the city.
IIRC, authorities do have long-range plans for an Amazon bridge there, too.
See:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=-3.140516,-60.292969&spn=6.917805,7.064209&t=m&z=7
The north branch is the Negro, the south the Amazon. Zoom in to see the Rio Negro bridge under construction.
Mike
Amazing view. It is easy to see how the Rio Negro got its name. This article (http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/manaus-iranduba-bridge/) indicates that the Manaus-Iranduba bridge over the Rio Negro opened in October:
Quote
The Manaus-Iranduba bridge, also called Ponte Rio Negro, is a 3.6km river crossing across the Rio Negro in the Amazon region of Brazil.
The bridge connects the cities of Manaus and Iranduba. Manaus is an industrial city of the Amazon state that is largely secluded by rain forest and Iranduba is a municipality located south of Manaus.
The bridge was opened in October 2011 ....
The bridge was installed with a span of 400m cable stay by using 56 cables.
The length of the central beam of the bridge is two x 200m, the width is 20.70m and height of the bridge in the middle is 55m. The lateral side walk of the bridge is 22.60m, the trafficable area has a width of 16.50m and height of the main pylon is 103m. The navigation clearance under the deck is 57m from high water level ....
Build the next bridge over the Amazon and Pan American Highway-E may come into existence. :sombrero:
My dad made a trip mostly along the Pan-American Highway about 1955. When he got out of the Army, he got a plane down to Punta Arenas and spent about six months making his way by local buses and hitchhiking north to the U.S. He got a ferry to pass around parts of Central America. He says the roads were almost all dirt outside of the cities and usually just two very narrow lanes. The U.S. (he said) paid for clearing the land and grading the road, but not for paving.
Quote from: Grzrd on February 20, 2012, 05:56:06 PM
Reviving a vintage thread ...
This Jan. 27, 2012 article (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-27/rebel-retreat-leads-condor-to-seek-ipo-to-fund-highways.html) indicates that Colombia is experiencing a surge in infrastructure construction, and that construction of the Darien Gap "missing link" may be one of the projects
No new developments in this revival, but I thought some might find this August 14, 2014 BBC News article (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28756378) to be of interest:
Quote
Stretching from Alaska to the pencil tip of Argentina, the 48,000km-long Pan-American Highway holds the record for the world's longest motorable road. But there is a gap - an expanse of wild tropical forest - that has defeated travellers for centuries ....
Every so often, the dream of completing the Pan-American Highway is resurrected. The last push came a decade ago from former Colombian president Alvaro Uribe, who anticipated a boom in commerce as the conflict between the government and guerrillas waned. It's bandits who benefit from keeping the Gap a no-go area.
But Panama, along with the US and local indigenous populations, have a range of objections. A road would pose a threat to indigenous cultures, accelerate deforestation and allow the spread of disease - such as foot and mouth cattle disease, which the Gap has so far effectively prevented from spreading to North America ....
"The worst thing that could happen to the Darien would be the completion of the highway across the Darien Gap," says Michael J Ryan, a University of Texas biologist who researches the amphibians threatened by chytrid fungus in the Darien National Park.
"The loggers will follow the road, forests will fall, and huge chunks of paradise will be lost forever."
I've recently discovered two really interesting items that play into this thread on the Pan American Highway.
First, is a book I read entitled "Road Fever". It's a chronicle on a few guys who drove a truck from Tierra del Fuego, Argentina north to Alaska, ferrying around the Darien Gap. Majority of the book deals with the drives through South and Central America. Once they enter the US, the book is rushed and concluded, but still a great read on this highway nonethtless.
Second, I found a documentary on Netflix called 180 South. It's a documentary on a guy's ambition to recreate a trip made down to Argentina, in a van, by the founders of The North Face back in the 60s. He does a lot of the trip by boat, but there are some cool shots of the road as he heads south.
Quote from: mgk920 on March 18, 2011, 04:39:31 PM
Quote from: Grzrd on March 18, 2011, 03:59:08 PM
In 1961, Chevrolet launched an attempt to have 3 Corvairs drive across the Darien Gap. Undaunted by the lack of a road, they used machetes, etc. to make their own roadway and bridges. Since we are at the 50 year anniversary, I thought I would post a link:
http://offroadaction.ca/corvairs-crossing-the-south-american-darien-gap
So, I guess the road is doable if enough people want to build it.
Interesting in that a couple of minutes into the second section of that clip, they finally reach Yaviza, Panama - where the road now ends.
Mike
(above quote from Pan American Highway Route Through Darien Gap? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4298.msg94348#msg94348) thread)
This Jan. 27, 2015 article (http://en.centralamericadata.com/en/article/home/Tender_Road_Infrastructure_Works) reports that, although Panama does not currently intend to extend the Pan American Highway from Yaviza through the Darien Gap, it does intend to renovate the highway from Agua Fria to Yaviza:
Quote
The Ministry of Public Works in Panama is putting out to tender the renovation of the Pan American Highway to the Province of Darien.
The main objective of this project is to renovate all the way from the town of Agua Fria to the town of Yaviza, divided into four sections to be tendered, as follows:
Section 1: Agua Fria # 1 - Santa Fe ............ (Length approx. 23.880 Km)
Section 2: Santa Fe - Metetà ............ (Length approx. 24.256 Km)
Section 3: Metetà - Canglón ............ (Length approx. 25.338 Km)
Section 4: Canglón - Yaviza ............ (Length approx. 26.745 Km)
The deadline for submission of proposals is March 18, 2015.
Quote from: Grzrd on February 28, 2015, 10:19:01 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 18, 2011, 04:39:31 PM
Quote from: Grzrd on March 18, 2011, 03:59:08 PM
In 1961, Chevrolet launched an attempt to have 3 Corvairs drive across the Darien Gap. Undaunted by the lack of a road, they used machetes, etc. to make their own roadway and bridges. Since we are at the 50 year anniversary, I thought I would post a link:
http://offroadaction.ca/corvairs-crossing-the-south-american-darien-gap
So, I guess the road is doable if enough people want to build it.
Interesting in that a couple of minutes into the second section of that clip, they finally reach Yaviza, Panama - where the road now ends.
Mike
(above quote from Pan American Highway Route Through Darien Gap? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4298.msg94348#msg94348) thread)
This Jan. 27, 2015 article (http://en.centralamericadata.com/en/article/home/Tender_Road_Infrastructure_Works) reports that, although Panama does not currently intend to extend the Pan American Highway from Yaviza through the Darien Gap, it does intend to renovate the highway from Agua Fria to Yaviza:
Quote
The Ministry of Public Works in Panama is putting out to tender the renovation of the Pan American Highway to the Province of Darien.
The main objective of this project is to renovate all the way from the town of Agua Fria to the town of Yaviza, divided into four sections to be tendered, as follows:
Section 1: Agua Fria # 1 - Santa Fe ............ (Length approx. 23.880 Km)
Section 2: Santa Fe - Metetà ............ (Length approx. 24.256 Km)
Section 3: Metetà - Canglón ............ (Length approx. 25.338 Km)
Section 4: Canglón - Yaviza ............ (Length approx. 26.745 Km)
The deadline for submission of proposals is March 18, 2015.
I'm piqued by this one - in that even though the country's government still officially opposes connecting the road through into Colombia, are they never-the-less preparing for that as an inevitability?
:hmmm:
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on March 14, 2015, 04:39:20 PM
Quote from: Grzrd on February 28, 2015, 10:19:01 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 18, 2011, 04:39:31 PM
Quote from: Grzrd on March 18, 2011, 03:59:08 PM
In 1961, Chevrolet launched an attempt to have 3 Corvairs drive across the Darien Gap. Undaunted by the lack of a road, they used machetes, etc. to make their own roadway and bridges. Since we are at the 50 year anniversary, I thought I would post a link:
http://offroadaction.ca/corvairs-crossing-the-south-american-darien-gap
So, I guess the road is doable if enough people want to build it.
Interesting in that a couple of minutes into the second section of that clip, they finally reach Yaviza, Panama - where the road now ends.
Mike
(above quote from Pan American Highway Route Through Darien Gap? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4298.msg94348#msg94348) thread)
This Jan. 27, 2015 article (http://en.centralamericadata.com/en/article/home/Tender_Road_Infrastructure_Works) reports that, although Panama does not currently intend to extend the Pan American Highway from Yaviza through the Darien Gap, it does intend to renovate the highway from Agua Fria to Yaviza:
Quote
The Ministry of Public Works in Panama is putting out to tender the renovation of the Pan American Highway to the Province of Darien.
The main objective of this project is to renovate all the way from the town of Agua Fria to the town of Yaviza, divided into four sections to be tendered, as follows:
Section 1: Agua Fria # 1 - Santa Fe ............ (Length approx. 23.880 Km)
Section 2: Santa Fe - Metetà ............ (Length approx. 24.256 Km)
Section 3: Metetà - Canglón ............ (Length approx. 25.338 Km)
Section 4: Canglón - Yaviza ............ (Length approx. 26.745 Km)
The deadline for submission of proposals is March 18, 2015.
I'm piqued by this one - in that even though the country's government still officially opposes connecting the road through into Colombia, are they never-the-less preparing for that as an inevitability?
:hmmm:
Mike
I would say yes. Colombia is going to build a highway to the Panamanian border and just dead end it there. They believe that Panama will eventually connect their part of the road to it. It would be stupid not to build the road. The United States has even agreed to paying Panama 1/3 of the cost of building the road. Panama and Colombia have a few issues with one another, but for the most part they have friendly relations (the Panama Canal issue is pretty much non existent now). In fact I believe in another 10-15 years, either the road will be under construction or completed. The road would save so much money since items from North and South America could be trucked into each others' continents rather than shipping or flying items. Also the road would probably help out the local economies of the two countries a little bit.
What a driving adventure it would be to drive on the Pan-American highway: from the US-Mexican border...through Mexico, Central America (including the unpaved part from outside Panama city to northern Colombia), entering South America...all the way down to the tip of the continent in Punta Arenas on the Chile-Argentina border. Getting to see the sights of so-called Latin America up close and personal, compared to flying from one point to another skipping many towns or villages or countries...it's worth a memorial road trip of your life.
This article (http://www.ccjdigital.com/truckings-future-now-freight-infrastructure-drones-on-demand-deliveries-and-the-promise-of-global-roadways/) includes a prediction that the Pan American Highway's Darien Gap "missing link" will be completed by a twenty-five mile bridge (apparently under discussion):
Quote
"WE ARE MOVING TOWARD an era of mega-projects," says futurist Thomas Frey, pointing to four primary bridge projects under discussion now that could connect the planet in previously inconceivable ways. "We'll finish the Pan-American Highway with a 25-mile bridge over the Darien Gap in Panama," Frey says, referring to the 30,000-mile route that stretches from Prudhoe Bay, U.S., to Ushuaia, Argentina, and the 60-mile stretch of rainforest that, due to environmental concerns, is its only missing link. "If we were actually able to connect that stretch, we would see trucks hauling freight back and forth between North and South America and could potentially double the size of the trucking industry."
Very speculative. Why do they see trucks as the mode of choice? Seems like a case of "if a hammer is the only tool in your toolbox, every problem looks like a nail." For long distances, ships or rail are much more efficient both in skilled labor per ton moved and in fuel. The Darien Gap would be very challenging technically, rain forest is not very friendly to road construction, and chasing the guerrillas out would make the technical challenges look easy.
The Gibraltar Bridge is the only project on their list I see as reasonably likely to happen in the next 50 years. And even that would be more likely to be a rail bridge than a road bridge. Spain and Morocco both have pretty well-developed rail networks.
As far as I know, Panama has virtually no rail infrastructure to speak of except a railroad paralleling the canal itself; all the bridges over the canal are road bridges. And I don't think Columbia's network is integrated well, if at all, with its neighbors. Unless you're looking at a truck shuttle setup like the Channel Tunnel you're looking at intermodal delays, in which case there's no point in making the gap any smaller than it is today - might as well just run RORO truck ferries.
Honestly the challenge of the Darien Gap is more political than anything else. I-H3 made it through substantially more rugged terrain.
Quote from: lordsutch on October 29, 2015, 04:23:33 PM
Honestly the challenge of the Darien Gap is more political than anything else. I-H3 made it through substantially more rugged terrain.
As have many other highways, including sections of the Blue Ridge Parkway (in particular in North Carolina); I-70 across the Rockies and through Glenwood Canyon in Colorado and the Rafael Swell in Utah; and completed sections of ADHS Corridor H in West Virginia.
The Appalachian highways are money pits that should have never been built. It would be better to pay for all of the Appalachia residents to move to higher-income lower-unemployment areas.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 30, 2015, 08:28:49 PM
The Appalachian highways are money pits that should have never been built. It would be better to pay for all of the Appalachia residents to move to higher-income lower-unemployment areas.
That's kind of elitist. It's like saying everyone should move to cheaper to live in areas than the overcrowded East Coast.
Quote from: Grzrd on October 29, 2015, 01:20:53 PM
This article (http://www.ccjdigital.com/truckings-future-now-freight-infrastructure-drones-on-demand-deliveries-and-the-promise-of-global-roadways/) includes a prediction that the Pan American Highway's Darien Gap "missing link" will be completed by a twenty-five mile bridge (apparently under discussion):
Quote
"WE ARE MOVING TOWARD an era of mega-projects," says futurist Thomas Frey, pointing to four primary bridge projects under discussion now that could connect the planet in previously inconceivable ways. "We'll finish the Pan-American Highway with a 25-mile bridge over the Darien Gap in Panama," Frey says, referring to the 30,000-mile route that stretches from Prudhoe Bay, U.S., to Ushuaia, Argentina, and the 60-mile stretch of rainforest that, due to environmental concerns, is its only missing link. "If we were actually able to connect that stretch, we would see trucks hauling freight back and forth between North and South America and could potentially double the size of the trucking industry."
The actual 'gap' in the road networks is much shorter than that, about 50 km (+/- 30 miles), about the same as the distance between downtown Appleton, WI and downtown Green Bay, WI. And yes, I can see the use of viaduct bridging to cross the more difficult parts.
Mike
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 30, 2015, 08:28:49 PM
The Appalachian highways are money pits that should have never been built. It would be better to pay for all of the Appalachia residents to move to higher-income lower-unemployment areas.
I disagree. There are assets along these roads that are of benefit to the rest of the nation.
In the case of Corridor H it includes state parks like Blackwater Falls, as well as the vast Monongahela National Forest.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 06, 2015, 02:19:39 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 30, 2015, 08:28:49 PM
The Appalachian highways are money pits that should have never been built. It would be better to pay for all of the Appalachia residents to move to higher-income lower-unemployment areas.
I disagree. There are assets along these roads that are of benefit to the rest of the nation.
In the case of Corridor H it includes state parks like Blackwater Falls, as well as the vast Monongahela National Forest.
Included. They've all been blasted away for another corridor.
The sales pitch contained in this travel expedition press release (http://www.travpr.com/pr-39311-the-last-roadless-place.html) is basically "Come see the Darien Gap before the road is built":
Quote
(TRAVPR.COM) UNITED KINGDOM - January 25th, 2016 - In six weeks, a Secret Compass expedition team will plunge into Panama's notorious Darien Gap jungles, aiming to join the few to have crossed one of the world's finest rainforests and final adventure frontiers on foot.
Panama's mountainous Darien Gap is the only break in the 30,600km Pan-American Highway which connects Circle (Alaska) with Puerto Montt (Chile). This 150km of unfinished business is described as "˜the last roadless place' by Lonely Planet and was a Sunday Times Top 10 Wildest Trips of the Year.
Kerry O'Neill, marketing director with Secret Compass, said, "The Parc Nacional Darien is the most ecologically diverse land-based park in Central America ....
Highlights of Darien Gap expedition
· Discover the 150km gap in the 30,600km Pan-American highway
· Explore the ecological diversity of Central America's mountainous rainforest
· Travel alongside the Emberá Indians on foot and in dug-out canoes
· See 5,000-year-old Petroglyphs, remnants of an ancient culture
Though mired in political indecision and tempered by environmental concerns, there are rumours that a road connection, the "˜Interamericana', might one day be built due to increased trade benefits.
O'Neill continued, "For now, the Darien's undisturbed wilds remain filled with endemic flora, fauna, cultures and ancient petroglyphs. This makes it prime expedition territory for our pioneering team.
"To discover the hidden histories and raw adventures this pivotal Central American region and its rainforests have to offer before roads encroach into it, ambitious adventurers seeking their next challenge are invited to apply to join March's Darien Gap expedition team today," concluded O'Neill.
I suppose a creative roads enthusiast could somehow craft a "pre-clinch" opportunity out of this expedition.
Quote from: Grzrd on February 28, 2015, 10:19:01 PM
This Jan. 27, 2015 article (http://en.centralamericadata.com/en/article/home/Tender_Road_Infrastructure_Works) reports that, although Panama does not currently intend to extend the Pan American Highway from Yaviza through the Darien Gap, it does intend to renovate the highway from Agua Fria to Yaviza
Quote from: mgk920 on March 14, 2015, 04:39:20 PM
I'm piqued by this one - in that even though the country's government still officially opposes connecting the road through into Colombia, are they never-the-less preparing for that as an inevitability?
:hmmm:
Quote from: US 41 on March 21, 2015, 11:51:15 AM
I would say yes .... I believe in another 10-15 years, either the road will be under construction or completed.
This January 25, 2016 article (http://thebulletinpanama.com/2016/01/ministry-of-public-works-focus-on-high-impact-projects-for-2016/) reports that the primary purpose of the Agua Fria to Yaviza upgrade is "to further develop agriculture, tourism and commerce in the provinces":
Quote
The Government has also put for tender more than 200 roads all over the country to further develop agriculture, tourism and commerce in the provinces. Among those projects are the road from Agua Fria-Yaviza in the Darien province
The Agua Fria to Yaviza road improvements should increase agriculture, tourism, and commerce in Darien province, which in turn may lead to a greater demand for a road across the Darien Gap.
The article further reports that, also in Panama, the Pan American Highway will be expanded from four lanes to six lanes between La Chorrera and San Carlos (https://www.google.com/maps/@8.6974658,-79.774757,11z) in order to facilitate tourism in that area:
Quote
The Ministry of Public Works will concentrate all its efforts on mega projects such as the Fourth Bridge over the Canal, which will give another access to the interior. The bridge will benefit more than 1.7 million people who travel to and from Panama West every day, and whose only option is to use the Bridge of the Americas or the Centenary Bridge.
Another important project is the widening of the Panama-Arraijan highway to eight lanes, two of them reserved for the future Line 3 of the Metro, to improve the traffic in that area. Following the road improvement program, there are plans to expand the Panamerican Highway from four lanes to six, from La Chorrera to San Carlos, which is the region with most growth because of its tourism expansion.
I bumped this thread because some motorcyclists became the first to travel from Alaska to Patagonia, including the Darien Gap:
https://www.mensjournal.com/travel/first-trek-from-alaska-to-south-america-entirely-over-land-by-motorcycle/
Holy crap! That's awesome, it finally happened! :D
Makes me wonder what's going to get completed first -- the Darien Gap or the Bering Gap.
An overland gap should be far easier to fill than an aqueous one, even if the overland gap is full of mosquitoes and jungle and disease.
Never mind the political and practical issues that'll probably prevent a Bering Strait crossing in our lifetimes.
Give I-11 the PanAmerica Highway designation from Mexico to Canada. I'm partially serious :-D
As for the Darian Gap and the reasons such as deforestation and spreading of cattle disease, why don't we come up with solutions for that instead of just saying no. Build a checkpoint for those transporting cattle and surely there is a way to check if the cattle have the disease? Designate the forest around this corridor as national forests and ensure it is built as a freeway with limited interchanges in sensitive areas. This project can be more than just about building a road.
I made this as a parody of the proposals to have I-11 along I-19 and through eastern Oregon/Washington (with some inspiration from the Immigration Freedomway thread): https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12994.0
Quote from: vdeane on August 15, 2018, 01:25:22 PM
I made this as a parody of the proposals to have I-11 along I-19 and through eastern Oregon/Washington (with some inspiration from the Immigration Freedomway thread): https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12994.0
I thought I'd heard this proposal before: https://politics.theonion.com/u-s-protests-mexi-canadian-overpass-1819566460
If and when the Pan-American Highway is completed, then you'd have the most ideal road trip out there. For a while, I thought it would make an excellent Grand Tour special...until I realized that the trio are not welcome in Argentina.
^^ They could do it north of the Argentine border, then make a comment that they aren't going to be allowed into Argentina after last time.
James: "where can we go that isn't Argentina?"
Richard: "I want to see penguins"
Jeremy: "I know just the place"
cut to the trio looking at penguins in a mine field. "Pint" "Yep" - cut to the trio inside a nearby pub (taking down the pro-British trappings to just something small in the background), having a quiet pint and discussing their vehicles.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 06, 2015, 02:19:39 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 30, 2015, 08:28:49 PM
The Appalachian highways are money pits that should have never been built. It would be better to pay for all of the Appalachia residents to move to higher-income lower-unemployment areas.
I disagree. There are assets along these roads that are of benefit to the rest of the nation.
In the case of Corridor H it includes state parks like Blackwater Falls, as well as the vast Monongahela National Forest.
The ADHS highways serve not just the rural areas, but they also provide modern highway connectivity to many towns and small cities that already had existed for 100 years or more.
The designated Appalachian Region is a large land area, about 6 times the area of West Virginia. We can't just shut it down.
Quote from: english si on September 15, 2018, 08:42:05 AM
^^ They could do it north of the Argentine border, then make a comment that they aren't going to be allowed into Argentina after last time.
James: "where can we go that isn't Argentina?"
Richard: "I want to see penguins"
Jeremy: "I know just the place"
cut to the trio looking at penguins in a mine field. "Pint" "Yep" - cut to the trio inside a nearby pub (taking down the pro-British trappings to just something small in the background), having a quiet pint and discussing their vehicles.
Does that mean they're not coming on, then?
Quote from: theroadwayone on September 15, 2018, 03:36:30 PMDoes that mean they're not coming on, then?
Merely going to the place where penguins live in minefields near pubs will annoy the Argies enough to ban the episode in their country. Saying it's not Argentina is enough to show that you are very much winding them up.
Explicitly picking a fight by dealing with a problem head on isn't their style (the worst was trying to get the others abused in the Deep South by painting slogans on their cars, which even they felt crossed a line). Also why I'd suggest playing down the pro-British trappings (eg in The Globe (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-interior-of-the-globe-pub-in-stanley-falkland-islands-1222744.html)) - they don't need to rub it in by being explicit, just allude to it. No saying the F-word, just leave some hints.
After all, they went to Argentina and it was the subtle H982 FKL number plate that caused trouble (whether deliberate or not - and the evidence points to not). This isn't a Fawty Towers "don't mention the war!" situation - it's a literal "don't even mention mentioning the war" situation.
Quote from: english si on September 15, 2018, 04:57:59 PM
Quote from: theroadwayone on September 15, 2018, 03:36:30 PMDoes that mean they're not coming on, then?
Merely going to the place where penguins live in minefields near pubs will annoy the Argies enough to ban the episode in their country. Saying it's not Argentina is enough to show that you are very much winding them up.
Explicitly picking a fight by dealing with a problem head on isn't their style (the worst was trying to get the others abused in the Deep South by painting slogans on their cars, which even they felt crossed a line). Also why I'd suggest playing down the pro-British trappings (eg in The Globe (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-interior-of-the-globe-pub-in-stanley-falkland-islands-1222744.html)) - they don't need to rub it in by being explicit, just allude to it. No saying the F-word, just leave some hints.
After all, they went to Argentina and it was the subtle H982 FKL number plate that caused trouble (whether deliberate or not - and the evidence points to not). This isn't a Fawty Towers "don't mention the war!" situation - it's a literal "don't even mention mentioning the war" situation.
Not only that, but they changed the problem plate to H1 VAE. This might seem tame, save for the fact that doing so is illegal in Argentina. A year after all that happened, the Argies pushed for Clarkson to be extradited to face charges in their country, which didn't happen and likely never will.
Quote
(the worst was trying to get the others abused in the Deep South by painting slogans on their cars, which even they felt crossed a line
They keep insisting that was unscripted, but the accent of the gas station manager sounded much more Midwest than Deep South.
My proposal:
Designate all of US 83 as the Pan American highway from Laredo to the Canadian border.
In Canada designate SK 83 as the PAH up to TC 16. Have it follow TC 16 to AB 43. AB 43 turns into the Alaska highway once it enters BC.
While it is probably not the fastest route, it is the simplest route, which fits in well with the Pan American highway. If one were to drive from Laredo to Guatemala, one would not follow the Pan American highway south of Monterrey as it is no longer the fastest or best route to Guatemala.
(Side note: I've actually drove on the Pan American highway between Nuevo Laredo and Monterrey which is kind of cool.)
Quote from: US 41 on October 30, 2018, 11:56:39 AM
In Canada designate SK MB 83 as the PAH up to TC 16.
FTFY.
Is there an official route in South America? I can only find a lot of unrealiable tourism information.
Quote from: NE2 on October 30, 2018, 01:29:06 PM
Is there an official route in South America? I can only find a lot of unrealiable tourism information.
That would take a bit of research, likely from each individual country. But, for example, the MTC (Perú) officially refers to Ruta PE-1 (
here (https://web.archive.org/web/20120211185804/http://www.mtc.gob.pe/portal/transportes/red_vial/rutasold/001N_tabla.htm) and
here (https://web.archive.org/web/20120206225108/http://www.mtc.gob.pe/portal/transportes/red_vial/rutasold/001S_tabla.htm)) as the "Panamericana".
Also, regarding the Pan-American Highway in the USA...
Quote from: American Motorist, Volumes 43-44, 1974
"Under the numerical guidelines of the present day, the U. S. Federal Highway Administration in 1966 decided after lengthy consultations on national and inter-American levels that the entire numbered Interstate System should be declared an integral part of the Pan American Highway..."
That's as far as I can read online due to copyright issues. Does anyone on here have more insight into that?
QuoteAlaska is the northernmost area served by the System. The Alaska Highway starts near the Arctic Circle (originally called the Alcan Highway) and continues southeast through the Yukon territory of Canada to Dawson Creek in British Columbia. Construction began in 1942 and the route was opened to through traffic in 1943. Its rapid completion by the U. S. Bureau of Public Roads and the Corps of Engineers was due to the pressures of World War II and the need for an overland connection between Alaska and the United States. Under a bilateral agreement between the two nations, the U.S. expended about $140 million in construction costs while Canada contributed the right-of-way and certain materials and services. Canada assumed the cost of maintenance in its territory, and provided a through road on south through Edmonton and Calgary to the U. S. border in Montana.
Canada shows noteworthy highway development throughout the southern part of its enormous area, including a goodly share of multi-lane highways between the principal cities. It has a north-south connection in the Alaska Highway, and there are plans on the drafting boards for others as far as the Arctic ocean, but in general the scattered sparse population and difficult terrain and climate in the north have handicapped any large expansion. There is no specific route in Canada designated as "Pan American." Canada is not a member of the Organization of American States (OAS) although it has participated for many years as a helpful observer in OAS technical discussions.
The imaginary line of the "spinal cord" to and from Alaska intersects the Trans-Canada No. 1 and Alberta Highway No. 2 at Calgary. The Trans-Canada Highway is the longest of all national highways, following the most direct route across the southern part of the country, although still maintaining its scenic beauty. Famous cities, towns and villages are spread along its nearly 4,800-mile length, adding variety and interest to any journey.
The United States also has no single route labelled as the Pan American Highway and presumably never will have one, for obvious reasons. The wide availability of north-south connections across all of the states, and the rival promotional interests of state governments, Chambers of Commerce, official travel bureaus and the like make such a designation both unnecessary and impractical. Long past, except for certain named turnpikes or toll roads, are the early 1900's when a Lincoln Highway stretched from New York to San Francisco, a Yellowstone Trail from Boston to Seattle, and a Meridian Highway from Winnipeg in Canada to Laredo, Texas, among many others.
Under the numerical guidelines of the present day, the U. S. Federal Highway Administration in 1966 decided after lengthy consultations on national and inter-American levels that the entire numbered Interstate System should be declared an integral part of the Pan American Highway System. This interstate network, initially established in 1947 in accord with legislation enacted by Congress in 1944, now comprises 42,500 miles (66,000 kilometers) of multi-lane superhighways that connect almost all cities in the nation with over 50,000 population and carry more than 20 percent of total highway traffic.
Mexico has its own national highway network, rapidly expanding and improving remarkably. In 1971 the Mexican road system comprised less than 45,000 miles, mostly trunk roads, while by the end of 1973 the total had more than doubled, with construction of trunk roads not diminishing and increased funds being applied to feeder roads. The costs are being defrayed from Mexican resources.
All of the routes today bear numbers rather than names, and in common usage there is no single line that is now regarded as "The Pan American." As a matter of fact, there are five principal points on the U. S.-Mexican border (see map) that channel international traffic to and from Mexico City and thus offer a choice of routes. The topography is such, however, that the shortest direct line between the two countries starts at Nuevo Laredo on the Texas border and leads due south through a dynamically developing region to the national capital on the high central plateau. On toward the southeast, topography and population combine to squeeze highways toward the Pacific coast, as is also the case in Central America.
Central America and Panama
This is the first sector of the System to bear by virtue of national statutes and international agreements an official name – the "Inter-American Highway." It stretches along the Pacific slope of the continental divide through the six republics of Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama (crossing the Panama Canal by a high-level bridge built by the U. S. Government), a total distance of close to 1,500 miles–by coincidence, approximately the same as that for the shortest route through either Mexico or the contiguous United States. It traverses all of the capital cities except Tegucigalpa in Honduras, which is reached by a 60-mile paved road climbing inland from the Pacific coast.
First surveyed in the 1930's as an overland link between North America and Panama and opened to through traffic in 1963, the Inter-American Highway today carries passenger automobiles, buses and trucks on concrete or asphalt surfaces with bridges of modern design. For its construction, the U. S. government contributed more than $170 million and the six cooperating republics expended about $100 million. Altogether, the enterprise has been an outstanding example of intergovernmental cooperation in highway development and has greatly stimulated the rise to reality of the hemispheric system.
The Darien
From the outset, the largely unpopulated tropical rain forest in southeastern Panama and northwestern Colombia, with average annual rainfall over 100 inches, has stood as the most forbidding barrier to completion of the System. Now its ultimate conquest is well in sight, as a keystone to the hemispheric arch, thanks more to long-range policies of the cooperating countries than to immediate economic pressures.
This is the second portion of the System to bear a statutory name under U. S. legislation. Officially it is the "Darien Gap Highway," 250 miles long, so designated by a 1970 act of the U. S. Congress authorizing expenditures of $100 million in U. S. funds, or two-thirds of the estimated total cost. The remaining $50 million will be provided by the governments of Panama and Colombia. Formal agreements to this effect were signed at Washington, D. C., in 1971, by representatives of the three nations.
Construction operations have been in progress in Panama since 1972, with contracting firms selected by competitive bidding and working under contracts awarded by the Panamanian highway department. In Colombia, the first contracts are expected to be awarded by the Colombian highway department late in 1974. Program supervision is by the U. S. Federal Highway Administration (F.H.W.A.) in both countries.
A biological problem that has been difficult of solution is the foot-and-mouth disease in cattle (aftosa), possible transmission of which via the new highway has aroused concern in Panama, Central America and elsewhere. Much work has been done by experts from the United States, Colombia and Panama, aimed at eventual eradication or control of the disease. Agreement has recently been reached on plans to establish quarantine zones in the form of national parks and forests on the Colombia-Panama border, together with other inspection and control measures in both countries.
Assuming that the three cooperating nations meet their annual commitments promptly, completion of an all-weather two-lane road for the entire Darien Gap Highway may be possible by the end of 1978, with a paved surface to follow. Meanwhile, travelers must use air or sea transport to by-pass the tropical rain forest. Air facilities for passengers are readily available; motor vehicles require the use of coastal or ocean-going vessels between seaports.
South America
The accompanying map reflects the prodigious development of highway connections in the major areas of South America during the last decade. All of these constitute essential parts of the System, just as important to the nation and their citizens as the spinal cord line. For the purpose of this simplified presentation, however, and only to make the vast picture more comprehensible, some of the connections are shown in the map legends as "nerve trunks."
The U. S. government has not made direct grants for any portions of the highways in those distant countries, although it has contributed largely to technical assistance projects and other activities. Funding generally has been through the resources of the individual countries and borrowings from international agencies.
The spinal cord, once past the Darien, extends from the mountains of Colombia and Ecuador (at elevations of 8,000 to 10,000 feet) to the narrow Pacific coastal plain skirting the Andes in Peru and Chile; then turns east across the mountain wall to Buenos Aires at sea level in Argentina; then across the 30-mile wide estuary of the Plata river by ferry to Montevideo in Uruguay (or by an alternative all-land route to Asuncion in Paraguay and thence east to the Atlantic coast); then to Rio de Janeiro and Brasilia, Brazil.
Some of the principal nerve trunks connecting with the spinal cord include the northern route from Bogota through Caracas to the Guianas on the Atlantic coast; the Trans-Andean from Lima to the Brazilian border at Pucallpa, linking up there with the Trans-Amazon across the extreme width of Brazil to the port of Recife; the La Paz-Buenos Aires connection; the Buenos Aires-Asuncion-Curitiba (port of Paranagua) route; and the line from Brasilia to Belem near the mouth of the Amazon.
As the map indicates, there are many other parts of South America that are served by connecting roads, through steadily developing areas–certainly a tempting invitation to adventurous exploration.
Quote from: english si on September 15, 2018, 04:57:59 PMthe worst was trying to get the others abused in the Deep South by painting slogans on their cars, which even they felt crossed a line
Oh, I'd say the one where they went to Vietnam and had a scooter painted with the American flag that also blared The Star-Spangled Banner was much worse.
My God, those three have conflicting feelings about the USA.
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 30, 2018, 08:23:31 PMOh, I'd say the one where they went to Vietnam and had a scooter painted with the American flag that also blared The Star-Spangled Banner was much worse.
If you pay attention, the cuts were mostly obscuring the area around the scooter, and the emphasis was that it was a horrific punishment for having your bike break down.
The Deep South was saying 'lets see who can get the Rednecks annoyed the most with slogans, with the bonus of endangering a fellow presenter as Rednecks are violent', the Vietnam one was 'this is a terrible thing to do, we must keep our bikes going'.
The 'Nam one was antagonistic but it was designed to be a massive negative punishment, reflecting on the war being horrific, rather than anything negative about the Vietnamese people. The US one was slightly less antagonistic, but was designed to be a game revolving around making fun of Rednecks, and so much more about the insult of the natives.
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 30, 2018, 08:23:31 PM
Quote from: english si on September 15, 2018, 04:57:59 PMthe worst was trying to get the others abused in the Deep South by painting slogans on their cars, which even they felt crossed a line
Oh, I'd say the one where they went to Vietnam and had a scooter painted with the American flag that also blared The Star-Spangled Banner was much worse.
My God, those three have conflicting feelings about the USA.
In the original cut, it played "Born In the USA" by Bruce Springsteen. Then Hammond points to the rolling thunder and then the nearby village (most of it's people) making their way down the road, and then Clarkson says "Children, if you're watching this at home and don't know why this is inappropriate, ask your parents."
That, and the backup car has almost usually been something antagonistic to the challenge, or something they all dislike (such as the Beetle in the Botswana episode, or the Vauxhall Astra in the Middle East one.)
I bump this thread by mentionning and sorry if someone else already posted it, then the Panamerican highway in Panama along with some others roads is on Streetview.
https://goo.gl/maps/GDC78r2urLLH444s5
My cousin and I at one point had considered trying to drive all the way to Ushuaia from Indiana after I graduated high school. We quickly realized that we would have to ship our car from Colon, Panama to Cartagena, Columbia. If I remember correctly it was around $1000 USD to do it and you'd have to fly to Columbia to get the car.
In South America the route we would have taken is as followed.
In Columbia: HWY 90 to HWY 25 to Equador.
In Equador: HWY E35 across the country to Peru.
In Peru: HWY 1N / 1S across the country to Chile.
In Chile: HWY 5 south all the way to Hwy 199 (goes through Villarica) to Argentina border.
In Argentina: 60 to 23 to 40 to 3, cross Chile again on 257, continue on 3 to Ushuaia.
I'll likely never do any of that now since I focus exclusively on North America (US, CAN, MEX) but it was still a fun trip to plan out with my cousin. Chile was the country I found most interesting when exploring the place on GSV and I may end up traveling there one day at some point and I may drag my cousin there with me and we can drive the entire length of HWY 5.
We never drove to Panama either and quite honestly I think most of Central America, especially Honduras, is too dangerous for my liking. I'll drive down any major highway in Mexico any day, but Central America is super sketchy these days. The farthest south I'll probably ever make it is Puerto Madero, which is just south of Tapachula, Chiapas.
On a side note they now have street view in Panama which is new. Guatemala was added I think maybe two years ago and this is the first time I've seen Panama. So you can do a virtual tour if you want.
1. Chile is more developed than the rest of South and Central America, to the point that it could even be considered a first world country.
2. It's spelled Colombia.
Quote from: 1 on August 27, 2021, 10:13:49 AM
1. Chile is more developed than the rest of South and Central America, to the point that it could even be considered a first world country.
Argentina and the metropolitan areas of Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, and Brasilia in Brazil (not as much the rest of Brazil) in South America and Panama in Central America are pretty well developed, I'd consider them first world too.
Quote from: Daniel Fiddler on August 27, 2021, 10:21:48 AM
Quote from: 1 on August 27, 2021, 10:13:49 AM
1. Chile is more developed than the rest of South and Central America, to the point that it could even be considered a first world country.
Argentina and the metropolitan areas of Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, and Brasilia in Brazil (not as much the rest of Brazil) in South America and Panama in Central America are pretty well developed, I'd consider them first world too.
Uruguay is in there as well.
What are the chances the Darian Gap is ever closed?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 09, 2023, 12:34:02 AM
What are the chances the Darian Gap is ever closed?
Closed? Isn't it always, essentially?
Apropos if nothing, I have been on segments of the Pan American in every country it exists other than Mexico, Guatemala, Panama, and Argentina, the latter of which I haven't traveled to yet at all.
Quote from: Rothman on April 09, 2023, 08:55:28 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 09, 2023, 12:34:02 AM
What are the chances the Darian Gap is ever closed?
Closed? Isn't it always, essentially?
Closing a gap means there is no longer a gap...
Quote from: kphoger on April 11, 2023, 01:50:26 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 09, 2023, 08:55:28 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 09, 2023, 12:34:02 AM
What are the chances the Darian Gap is ever closed?
Closed? Isn't it always, essentially?
Closing a gap means there is no longer a gap...
Tell that to Cumberland Gap.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 09, 2023, 12:34:02 AM
What are the chances the Darian Gap is ever closed?
0.
Panama is a breakaway province of Columbia specifically because Columbia couldn't enforce the border due to the hazardous nature of the Gap. Building a road, which would almost have to be elevated its entire length due to the swampy nature of the Gap and the monsoon of rainfall that falls there as well as cost hundreds if not thousands of worker lives to construct like the Panama Canal did, would only make it easier for Columbia to reclaim their historical claim on Panama. Not to mention that the U.S. doesn't exactly crave an easy high-volume avenue to funnel cocaine into Central America for its final destination here. Easier to police for a few boats, handbuilt submarines, and human mules than 1000's of cross border trucks.
Since they couldn't even make a regular ferry service economically viable, I wouldn't bet on the Darién Gap ever being closed.
Quote from: MikieTimT on April 11, 2023, 03:32:14 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 09, 2023, 12:34:02 AM
What are the chances the Darian Gap is ever closed?
0.
Panama is a breakaway province of Columbia specifically because Columbia couldn't enforce the border due to the hazardous nature of the Gap. Building a road, which would almost have to be elevated its entire length due to the swampy nature of the Gap and the monsoon of rainfall that falls there as well as cost hundreds if not thousands of worker lives to construct like the Panama Canal did, would only make it easier for Columbia to reclaim their historical claim on Panama. Not to mention that the U.S. doesn't exactly crave an easy high-volume avenue to funnel cocaine into Central America for its final destination here. Easier to police for a few boats, handbuilt submarines, and human mules than 1000's of cross border trucks.
Yes, exactly. We could solve the engineering problems, but the US would put the kibosh on closing that gap due to the "war on drugs". It's unfortunate because having a safe overland route could increase trade between South and North Americas and provide additional markets for goods. However, with the cartels things aren't safe and it would take a lot of will, a lot of money, and probably military or extreme government force to civilize the gap enough for commercial traffic.
As far as I know, most of the opposition has been environmental in nature, not because of cartel violence or trade. The gap has prevented livestock disease from spreading between continents and preserved the biodiversity of the rainforest. The southernmost portion of the highway in Panamá has indeed attracted deforestation, and it therefore serves as proof that filling the gap would result in environmental damage. The indigenous people groups who live in the area have been opposed to the idea for similar reasons, because they consider themselves to be at particular risk.
And people who say there's zero percent chance of it happening aren't realizing that a lot can and has changed with regards to the cartels and FARC. Visiting MedellÃn or Calà would have been insane in the 90's. Now those are two of the most popular places to visit in all of South America. What can happen in another 30 years?
Regardless of the environment impacts and inherit risks I believe it should still be completed with as much mitigation as possible.
I don't think the U.S. would formally oppose the project, if it ever came to fruition.
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
I don't think the U.S. would formally oppose the project, if it ever came to fruition.
I wonder if we would contribute to its cost?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 12, 2023, 06:36:04 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
I don't think the U.S. would formally oppose the project, if it ever came to fruition.
I wonder if we would contribute to its cost?
Given the amount of foreign aid we distribute down there, probably.
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
I don't think the U.S. would formally oppose the project, if it ever came to fruition.
Colombia, Panama, and the US have recently announced a plan to try and stem the flow of migrants through the Darien Gap, projected to number as many as 400,000 this year: https://apnews.com/article/darien-gap-panama-colombia-us-migrants-cf0cd1e9de2119208c9af186e53e09b7
I think the mutual desire to stem extra-continental migration and influence of armed groups would strongly preclude the construction of any marked route through the area.
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 15, 2023, 12:55:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
I don't think the U.S. would formally oppose the project, if it ever came to fruition.
Colombia, Panama, and the US have recently announced a plan to try and stem the flow of migrants through the Darien Gap, projected to number as many as 400,000 this year: https://apnews.com/article/darien-gap-panama-colombia-us-migrants-cf0cd1e9de2119208c9af186e53e09b7
I think the mutual desire to stem extra-continental migration and influence of armed groups would strongly preclude the construction of any marked route through the area.
You've ignored the other reasons mentioned in the article. Improving the means of getting through the gap would also help the humanitarian situation mentioned.
It's the typical problem of U.S. foreign policy talking out of both sides of its mouth.
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2023, 09:08:25 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 15, 2023, 12:55:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
I don't think the U.S. would formally oppose the project, if it ever came to fruition.
Colombia, Panama, and the US have recently announced a plan to try and stem the flow of migrants through the Darien Gap, projected to number as many as 400,000 this year: https://apnews.com/article/darien-gap-panama-colombia-us-migrants-cf0cd1e9de2119208c9af186e53e09b7
I think the mutual desire to stem extra-continental migration and influence of armed groups would strongly preclude the construction of any marked route through the area.
You've ignored the other reasons mentioned in the article. Improving the means of getting through the gap would also help the humanitarian situation mentioned.
It's the typical problem of U.S. foreign policy talking out of both sides of its mouth.
To put it bluntly, I suspect the humanitarian angle is mostly lip service and is of low priority to decision-makers, as they desire to limit the flow of low-skill refugees into their borders and that create strain on their social services.
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 15, 2023, 11:02:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2023, 09:08:25 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 15, 2023, 12:55:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
I don't think the U.S. would formally oppose the project, if it ever came to fruition.
Colombia, Panama, and the US have recently announced a plan to try and stem the flow of migrants through the Darien Gap, projected to number as many as 400,000 this year: https://apnews.com/article/darien-gap-panama-colombia-us-migrants-cf0cd1e9de2119208c9af186e53e09b7
I think the mutual desire to stem extra-continental migration and influence of armed groups would strongly preclude the construction of any marked route through the area.
You've ignored the other reasons mentioned in the article. Improving the means of getting through the gap would also help the humanitarian situation mentioned.
It's the typical problem of U.S. foreign policy talking out of both sides of its mouth.
To put it bluntly, I suspect the humanitarian angle is mostly lip service and is of low priority to decision-makers, as they desire to limit the flow of low-skill refugees into their borders and that create strain on their social services.
This sounds like a partisan opinion rather than an objective observation.
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2023, 01:52:13 PM
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 15, 2023, 11:02:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2023, 09:08:25 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 15, 2023, 12:55:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
I don't think the U.S. would formally oppose the project, if it ever came to fruition.
Colombia, Panama, and the US have recently announced a plan to try and stem the flow of migrants through the Darien Gap, projected to number as many as 400,000 this year: https://apnews.com/article/darien-gap-panama-colombia-us-migrants-cf0cd1e9de2119208c9af186e53e09b7
I think the mutual desire to stem extra-continental migration and influence of armed groups would strongly preclude the construction of any marked route through the area.
You've ignored the other reasons mentioned in the article. Improving the means of getting through the gap would also help the humanitarian situation mentioned.
It's the typical problem of U.S. foreign policy talking out of both sides of its mouth.
To put it bluntly, I suspect the humanitarian angle is mostly lip service and is of low priority to decision-makers, as they desire to limit the flow of low-skill refugees into their borders and that create strain on their social services.
This sounds like a partisan opinion rather than an objective observation.
I feel like your observation is also partisan since you discuss government function in a forum that specifically does not allow politics
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 15, 2023, 11:02:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2023, 09:08:25 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 15, 2023, 12:55:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
I don't think the U.S. would formally oppose the project, if it ever came to fruition.
Colombia, Panama, and the US have recently announced a plan to try and stem the flow of migrants through the Darien Gap, projected to number as many as 400,000 this year: https://apnews.com/article/darien-gap-panama-colombia-us-migrants-cf0cd1e9de2119208c9af186e53e09b7
I think the mutual desire to stem extra-continental migration and influence of armed groups would strongly preclude the construction of any marked route through the area.
You've ignored the other reasons mentioned in the article. Improving the means of getting through the gap would also help the humanitarian situation mentioned.
It's the typical problem of U.S. foreign policy talking out of both sides of its mouth.
To put it bluntly, I suspect the humanitarian angle is mostly lip service and is of low priority to decision-makers, as they desire to limit the flow of low-skill refugees into their borders and that create strain on their social services.
You're the one ignoring humanitarian aspects of this and yet you accuse the other guy of doing so? Lol