Kickapoo Turnpike

[skluth]

Don't get me started on Rogers Lane.

I'm kind of surprised the US Army hasn't intervened in the situation since a few other major Army posts have far better freeway quality access. Or perhaps Army brass has done some bitching about it that I never knew which helped result in some of the intersection modifications done at I-44, Ft Sill Blvd and Sheridan Road. The fake freeway is still crap even with those very modest "upgrades." BTW, I-44 at Key Gate also needs to be completely redone and maybe even with an additional lane. I-44 from Cache Road up to Key Gate can get jammed very early in the morning due to so many Fort Sill personnel headed to work at the same time.

I've never been to Lawton, but there are plenty of military bases that don't have freeway access. Fort Campbell, KY. Scott AFB, IL. Fort Eustas, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base). Fort Dix, NJ. Good freeway access like Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, and Norfolk Naval Station isn't that common.

[Scott5114]

I mean, there's good freeway access, no freeway access, and then there's Rogers Lane.

[sprjus4]

Fort Eustis, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base).

The segment of VA-105 between the cloverleaf with I-64 and the main entrance is built to full freeway standards.

Oceana would've received direct access if the Southeastern Pkwy had been constructed, with the 21 mile route between VA-168 and I-264 passing in front of the main entrance with a trumpet interchange.

[skluth]

Fort Eustis, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base).

The segment of VA-105 between the cloverleaf with I-64 and the main entrance is built to full freeway standards.

Oceana would've received direct access if the Southeastern Pkwy had been constructed, with the 21 mile route between VA-168 and I-264 passing in front of the main entrance with a trumpet interchange.

Never realized Ft Eustas Blvd had an interchange with Warwick. Never visited the base. That still only makes two bases in the area, when there is still no freeway access to Oceana, Dam Neck, Little Creek, Langley AFB, Fort Story, the Joint Base at Suffolk, and Portsmouth Naval Shipyard. OTOH, the Southeastern Pkwy is nothing more than the highway equivalent of vaporware. I didn't think it had a chance to built when I lived in Tidewater in the Naughts (or whatever the 00 decade is called).

Eustas is also a pedantic argument. The point that many military bases are not easy to access by freeway still exists. I've also commuted enough to Norfolk NAS to know that even great highway access doesn't guarantee a good commute.

[Scott5114]

I think you're both missing the point here. Freeway access or not is besides the point. Rogers Lane is a weird road that tries to be both an expressway and a freeway at various points and manages to accomplish neither. (Go look it up on GSV.) Bobby's point is that he's surprised Fort Sill leadership hasn't taken issue with it in its current configuration and pushed for it to be converted to either a freeway or a standard arterial instead of the bizarre half-measure it is now.

Besides, Fort Sill has an interchange or two from I-44, so it does have freeway access aside from Rogers Lane.

[kphoger]

The terrible bridges?

I-35 bridges in northern Oklahoma, I-44 roller coaster lanes in southern Oklahoma:  two of my least favorite things about driving to Mexico.

Which bridges in particular on 35?  The major bridges across the rivers have all been replaced in the last 10 years (except the Cimarron, which isn't bad). The OK33 bridge is scheduled to be replaced this year along with an interchange rebuild. The only bad one that comes immediately to mid is at Waterloo Road. It too is scheduled to be replaced in the new 2 years.

What are roller coaster lanes?

I don't remember which bridges anymore, because they're better now.  Back around 2010-2011, it seemed like every other one was under construction.  Of course, that matches your timeline perfectly.

Roller coaster lanes:  there's a stretch of I-44 where the roadbed is... umm, wavy, I guess.  I can never remember if it's south of or north of Lawton.  With a heavy-laden vehicle, it's brutal.  Even though the pavement is perfectly smooth, my suspension still bottoms out every few dashes of the white line.  I think it's worse northbound than southbound.

[Bobby5280]

I've never been to Lawton, but there are plenty of military bases that don't have freeway access. Fort Campbell, KY. Scott AFB, IL. Fort Eustas, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base). Fort Dix, NJ. Good freeway access like Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, and Norfolk Naval Station isn't that common.

It's common enough with major installations. One of the original purposes of the Interstate Highway System was to aid national defense on the homefront (even though a lot of heavy equipment is moved more often by rail or even by air). Some freeways are built specifically with military bases in mind to some degree. I-H3 goes from the Honolulu side of Oahu through the mountains right to the front gate of the Kaneohe Bay Marine base. The Camp Lejuene Marine Base in Jacksonville doesn't connect to an actual Interstate route but there is a freeway that runs on the base for about 5 miles and sort of connects to the freeway half loop in Jacksonville.

Fort Sill is not a tiny, insignificant Army post. It's big, has important history and is continuing to grow. Rogers Lane runs parallel to Fort Sill's South border. It's nothing more than a glorified street with a number of dangerous design flaws, such as no shoulders and a center median that can be hopped very easily. I-44 is a real Interstate but the Key Gate exit is outdated in its bridge and ramp designs. I'm pretty sure the exit's construction pre-dates the I-44 designation on that highway in the early 1980's. As important as the military is to Oklahoma one would think ODOT and the state's legislature wouldn't treat Fort Sill (and Lawton) as such an after-thought.

Freeway access or not is besides the point. Rogers Lane is a weird road that tries to be both an expressway and a freeway at various points and manages to accomplish neither. (Go look it up on GSV.) Bobby's point is that he's surprised Fort Sill leadership hasn't taken issue with it in its current configuration and pushed for it to be converted to either a freeway or a standard arterial instead of the bizarre half-measure it is now.

I don't know if Fort Sill brass hasn't pushed the issue. As I said earlier, a couple modest updates have happened in recent years. The exits for Fort Sill Blvd and Sheridan Road used to have these flagrantly dangerous at-grade left turns across the main lanes of Rogers Lane. In Google Earth the 2008 and 2010 imagery shows the before and after result. There is no current imagery showing how ODOT altered the Rogers Lane exit with I-44. Still, even with the upgrades Rogers Lane is a hot mess.

Roller coaster lanes:  there's a stretch of I-44 where the roadbed is... umm, wavy, I guess.  I can never remember if it's south of or north of Lawton.

It sounds like you're talking about the stretch of I-44 on Lawton's South side between the Lee Blvd exit and the 11th Street exit. The road is curvy, kind of hilly and the concrete slab of the main lanes has issues. ODOT has done some work projects on it, but nothing more than upgrading the shoulders and rehabbing slab joints. I think they need to do completely redo the road deck, like what they did on I-44 from the Randlett exit down South a couple or so miles.

[kphoger]

Roller coaster lanes:  there's a stretch of I-44 where the roadbed is... umm, wavy, I guess.  I can never remember if it's south of or north of Lawton.

It sounds like you're talking about the stretch of I-44 on Lawton's South side between the Lee Blvd exit and the 11th Street exit. The road is curvy, kind of hilly and the concrete slab of the main lanes has issues. ODOT has done some work projects on it, but nothing more than upgrading the shoulders and rehabbing slab joints. I think they need to do completely redo the road deck, like what they did on I-44 from the Randlett exit down South a couple or so miles.

No, I'm not talking about anything in Lawton.  It's very possible I'm thinking of the stretch north of the Walters toll booth.

* kphoger goes searching the forum...

Yep, we've had this conversation before.  I'm pretty sure I'm talking about heading north from Walters.  The northbound lanes are especially bad.  It probably isn't very noticeable if your vehicle has good shocks and isn't loaded down.

I was actually speaking of the section south of Lawton.  I can't remember offhand if it's the stretch north or south of Walters, but it's just bouncy-bouncy-bouncy if you have any weight loaded onto your vehicle due to the undulating roadway.

[Bobby5280]

The pavement quality of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike from South of Lawton down to the Randlett exit is really pretty lousy. The quality difference is pretty staggering at the Randlett exit. South of US-70 the I-44 main lanes are recently re-built concrete super-slab. North of US-70 it's just really old slab that gets only an occasional patch job or seam repair. Even in my ordinary pickup truck I feel the thump of driving over every seam joint.

I-44 is somewhat "flat" between the crappy old ratty Walters toll booth and the OK-36 exit for Faxon just South of Lawton. But, yeah, it's a thump, thump, thump affair.

It took freaking forever for OTA to remove the dangerous, nothing grass median and replace it with flat concrete and a cable barrier. When I drive on that segment of turnpike it feels like I'm driving on an ordinary 5-lane street. The portion where the cheap cable barrier is positioned could double as a center left turn lane.

[kphoger]

On the stretch I'm thinking of, you can look ahead toward the horizon, and the Interstate looks like it has gentle waves too.

[Bobby5280]

OTA probably needs to completely rip out the existing I-44 road bed, level out the grading and then install brand new slab. They're doing that on I-44 between OKC and Tulsa (and some of that finished work seems pretty nice). I-44 between Lawton and Wichita Falls isn't nearly as much of a priority for OTA. Hell, they built the concrete Jersey barrier on I-44 from the Medicine Park exit up to the Missouri border back in the mid 1990's. It took roughly another 20 years for OTA to address the segment of I-44 South of Lawton.

Perhaps if TX DOT did substantially more upgrade work on US-277 between Wichita Falls and Abilene (bringing it closer to Interstate standards) more long distance traffic might be attracted to the I-44 corridor in SW OK. An extended Kickapoo Turnpike that extended thru Norman and to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension might do even more of the same. That might force more maintenance work on the I-44 Rollercoaster to the South of Lawton. But it's probably going to be a really long time before either one of those things happens.

[rte66man]

BUMP

I finally got to drive the Kickapoo from I44 to I40 last month. Although it had been open to traffic for a month or so, it was far from finished south from the North Canadian River to I40.  A sampling of pics are below. The full collection is at https://www.flickr.com/photos/rte66man/albums/72157719484949408

EB44 approaching the exit


First speed limit sign


First mainline toll booth. Still taking cash.


Approaching the North Canadian River.


Road narrows for construction. Speed limit was 45!


Construction zone. It was clear the final layer of asphalt was still being put down.


Nearing I40. Notice the pavement changes to concrete.


A closer view


Road narrows to 2 lanes before crossing I40


Last exit. You can see the temporary connection to the local section line road.

[Great Lakes Roads]

BUMP

I finally got to drive the Kickapoo from I44 to I40 last month. Although it had been open to traffic for a month or so, it was far from finished south from the North Canadian River to I40.  A sampling of pics are below. The full collection is at https://www.flickr.com/photos/rte66man/albums/72157719484949408

First mainline toll booth. Still taking cash.

Even though it still takes cash on the Kickapoo Turnpike, the conversion to all-electronic tolling (AET) will happen sometime in 2022 along with the Chicksaw and the Cherokee.

[hobsini2]

A couple of things I see in the photos that got me intrigued. First, the milemarkers in the 130s. Is there a reason why they are so high instead of starting at Mile 1 at I-40? Second, on the gantry for the I-40 signs, it looks like an electronic toll collection spot but is not signed as such. Is that a speed trap? Third, LOVE the 80 MPH zone.

[okroads]

The mile markers and exit numbers are based on the turnpike's northern end at I-44's Exit 149: ie. one mile south of I-44 is mile marker 148, 10 miles south of I-44 is mile marker 139, etc.

[rte66man]

The mile markers and exit numbers are based on the turnpike's northern end at I-44's Exit 149: ie. one mile south of I-44 is mile marker 148, 10 miles south of I-44 is mile marker 139, etc.

That makes sense since the Kilpatrick follows the same rule going west from 44.

[bwana39]

Don't get me started on Rogers Lane.

I'm kind of surprised the US Army hasn't intervened in the situation since a few other major Army posts have far better freeway quality access. Or perhaps Army brass has done some bitching about it that I never knew which helped result in some of the intersection modifications done at I-44, Ft Sill Blvd and Sheridan Road. The fake freeway is still crap even with those very modest "upgrades." BTW, I-44 at Key Gate also needs to be completely redone and maybe even with an additional lane. I-44 from Cache Road up to Key Gate can get jammed very early in the morning due to so many Fort Sill personnel headed to work at the same time.

I've never been to Lawton, but there are plenty of military bases that don't have freeway access. Fort Campbell, KY. Scott AFB, IL. Fort Eustas, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base). Fort Dix, NJ. Good freeway access like Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, and Norfolk Naval Station isn't that common.

I-14 goes to Ft Hood.

[sprjus4]

Don't get me started on Rogers Lane.

I'm kind of surprised the US Army hasn't intervened in the situation since a few other major Army posts have far better freeway quality access. Or perhaps Army brass has done some bitching about it that I never knew which helped result in some of the intersection modifications done at I-44, Ft Sill Blvd and Sheridan Road. The fake freeway is still crap even with those very modest "upgrades." BTW, I-44 at Key Gate also needs to be completely redone and maybe even with an additional lane. I-44 from Cache Road up to Key Gate can get jammed very early in the morning due to so many Fort Sill personnel headed to work at the same time.

I've never been to Lawton, but there are plenty of military bases that don't have freeway access. Fort Campbell, KY. Scott AFB, IL. Fort Eustas, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base). Fort Dix, NJ. Good freeway access like Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, and Norfolk Naval Station isn't that common.

I-14 goes to Ft Hood.

[The Ghostbuster]

Are there any planned extensions of the Kickapoo Turnpike? And do they plan on adding a state highway designation to the turnpike in the future?

[Scott5114]

Are there any planned extensions of the Kickapoo Turnpike? And do they plan on adding a state highway designation to the turnpike in the future?

bold of you to assume OTA plans things

[SoonerLater]

Are there any planned extensions of the Kickapoo Turnpike? And do they plan on adding a state highway designation to the turnpike in the future?

The way that they constructed the junction of the south end of the Kickapoo Turnpike implies an intention to extend it southward in the future. They already built a tail that extends south from the junction toward SE 89th Street.


On the other hand, the way that they constructed the junction of the north end of the Kickapoo Turnpike suggests that they had no future plans to extend it further north.



If one studies the map, it's easy to see a possible corridor to extend the turnpike southward to Highway 9 east of Norman and possibly even southwesterly from Hwy 9 to I-35 in the vicinity of Purcell.



If the turnpike was extended to Hwy 9, it would go a long way to relieving football game day traffic congestion, as nearly all of the vehicles coming from Tulsa / NE Oklahoma would probably use the turnpike and enter Norman from the east, reducing traffic on the I-35 corridor in the OKC area. And if the turnpike was extended all the way to I-35 south of Norman (somewhere TBD), then it would provide an all-interstate route from Tulsa to DFW that would likely be shorter and faster than the current route from Tulsa to DFW using Highways 75 and 69 (and a lot of speed traps).

Maybe, someday.

[Henry]

Are there any planned extensions of the Kickapoo Turnpike? And do they plan on adding a state highway designation to the turnpike in the future?

The way that they constructed the junction of the south end of the Kickapoo Turnpike implies an intention to extend it southward in the future. They already built a tail that extends south from the junction toward SE 89th Street.


On the other hand, the way that they constructed the junction of the north end of the Kickapoo Turnpike suggests that they had no future plans to extend it further north.



If one studies the map, it's easy to see a possible corridor to extend the turnpike southward to Highway 9 east of Norman and possibly even southwesterly from Hwy 9 to I-35 in the vicinity of Purcell.



If the turnpike was extended to Hwy 9, it would go a long way to relieving football game day traffic congestion, as nearly all of the vehicles coming from Tulsa / NE Oklahoma would probably use the turnpike and enter Norman from the east, reducing traffic on the I-35 corridor in the OKC area. And if the turnpike was extended all the way to I-35 south of Norman (somewhere TBD), then it would provide an all-interstate route from Tulsa to DFW that would likely be shorter and faster than the current route from Tulsa to DFW using Highways 75 and 69 (and a lot of speed traps).

Maybe, someday.

The forthcoming I-240 extension just makes things more awkward, especially at the north end of the turnpike through which a cloverleaf loop must be navigated in order to stay on the 3di. If the turnpike were to be extended south, though, I could see I-140 or I-340 being used there. But I'm pulling hard for the latter, since it currently has not been used anywhere else.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm really dissatisfied with the lack of planning in central Oklahoma. OKC was one of the fastest growing areas in the country per the 2020 census and there is zero planning for any new freeway or even expressway facilities in areas that will clearly need them in the coming decades. ROW needs to at least be acquired before the land is developed.

[SoonerLater]

The forthcoming I-240 extension just makes things more awkward, especially at the north end of the turnpike through which a cloverleaf loop must be navigated in order to stay on the 3di. If the turnpike were to be extended south, though, I could see I-140 or I-340 being used there. But I'm pulling hard for the latter, since it currently has not been used anywhere else.

"stay on the 3di?" What is 3di?

[hotdogPi]

The forthcoming I-240 extension just makes things more awkward, especially at the north end of the turnpike through which a cloverleaf loop must be navigated in order to stay on the 3di. If the turnpike were to be extended south, though, I could see I-140 or I-340 being used there. But I'm pulling hard for the latter, since it currently has not been used anywhere else.

"stay on the 3di?" What is 3di?

3-digit Interstate (as opposed to 2-digit)