Regional Boards > Pacific Southwest
1963 photo taken at the East LA interchange
agentsteel53:
--- Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 02:03:21 AM ---EDIT: And here's a fantasy sign based on if much more of the Los Angeles freeway system was built as planned:
--- End quote ---
just a few very small quibbles.
Cal 258 didn't exist at the same time as outline-shield US routes (I think the Whitnall would've been CA-64 if signed in the early 60s), and I think Cal Div Hwys signed state routes as "Cal. XXX" or "State XXX" instead of "Hwy XXX". I just saw a sign that said "JUNCTION/CAL. 190" from 1958 that came off US-99, and a 1958 signing manual I've seen had "State XXX".
Also, you're using a 1961-spec shield shape for US-66, but that shield style only appeared in white-background form, starting in 1962 in California. The 1958-spec outline shield you are looking for is this one:
I also do not know if CA did mixed-case and all-caps on the same sign. As far as I know, they had all-caps on side-mounted signs and mixed-case on overheads until 1958, when they switched over to mixed-case in both contexts.
oh, and make the sign black :sombrero:
TheStranger:
--- Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 10:22:44 AM ---
just a few very small quibbles.
Cal 258 didn't exist at the same time as outline-shield US routes (I think the Whitnall would've been CA-64 if signed in the early 60s)
--- End quote ---
IIRC, both 64 and 258 are post-1964 numbers, with the middle section of the route (from today's Route 2/101 junction paralleling 5 and 101/170 to the 170/5 junction) being canceled around that time period...I don't recall a route number (besides the LRN) being assigned for it at any point in the 1950s.
(For that matter, Route 170 did not exist as a numbered designation until 1964, either, with much of that route being LRN 159. I remember reading some unsubstantiated rumor that 170 was going to be part of a US 6 reroute but I can't say that for sure - it would've made sense though as it would bypass the Pasadena Freeway.)
--- Quote from: agentsteel53 ---, and I think Cal Div Hwys signed state routes as "Cal. XXX" or "State XXX" instead of "Hwy XXX". I just saw a sign that said "JUNCTION/CAL. 190" from 1958 that came off US-99, and a 1958 signing manual I've seen had "State XXX".
oh, and make the sign black :sombrero:
--- End quote ---
Thanks! I do wonder when green first started being predominant - the Interstate era?
agentsteel53:
--- Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 10:35:33 AM ---
IIRC, both 64 and 258 are post-1964 numbers
--- End quote ---
I do know that LRN 64 was out in the desert, along the US-60/70 corridor:
yep, that is a signed LRN! (And an Arizona milepost, so don't get too excited :pan: )
I wonder if that deviated enough from US-60/70 to cover the Whitnall Freeway much further inland. Also I wonder what signed route number they'd have assigned it - likely not 257, as they consciously didn't exceed route number 198* until 1964.
(*okay, two exceptions - 1934 routes 440 and 740, but those were branches of 44 and 74, respectively)
--- Quote ---(For that matter, Route 170 did not exist as a numbered designation until 1964, either, with much of that route being LRN 159. I remember reading some unsubstantiated rumor that 170 was going to be part of a US 6 reroute but I can't say that for sure - it would've made sense though as it would bypass the Pasadena Freeway.)
--- End quote ---
I certainly did not know that! It does explain the 170 patches on 1959-1961 guide signs on I-5 southbound. I'd thought they covered up white-spade 170 markers, but they must cover up something else - likely it is empty under the 1964-spec outline shield 170 shield, but if it's not empty, it would be great to know what number is under there!
--- Quote ---Thanks! I do wonder when green first started being predominant - the Interstate era?
--- End quote ---
September, 1959, is the earliest green spec sheet I have. Thanks to the indomitable JN Winkler, who sent me 350 pages (!) of 1950s and 1960s California layout sheets! :sombrero:
(it seems in general California took about a year or two to adopt federal standards that it chose to adopt ... they switched to AASHO 1957-spec green signs in Sept '59, and they switched to AASHO 1961-spec white route shields, as opposed to outline shields, in August '62.)
there are black spec sheets as late as 1962, and I have seen two black signs for "El Camino Real", both of which are 1961. I do not know what contexts got black, and what got green, as all freeway signs, and some non-freeway signs were green as early as 1959.
TheStranger:
--- Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 11:54:53 AM ---
--- Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 10:35:33 AM ---
IIRC, both 64 and 258 are post-1964 numbers
--- End quote ---
I do know that LRN 64 was out in the desert, along the US-60/70 corridor:
yep, that is a signed LRN! (And an Arizona milepost, so don't get too excited :pan: )
--- End quote ---
Wow! Is this the only known example? My guess for the likeliest place for another LRN being noted in the field would be LRN 2, otherwise known as US 101.
--- Quote from: agentsteel53 ---
I wonder if that deviated enough from US-60/70 to cover the Whitnall Freeway much further inland. Also I wonder what signed route number they'd have assigned it - likely not 257, as they consciously didn't exceed route number 198* until 1964.
(*okay, two exceptions - 1934 routes 440 and 740, but those were branches of 44 and 74, respectively)
--- End quote ---
Looking at Dan Faigin's cahighways.org, LRN 265 applied to the post-1964 Route 64 segment of the Whitnall Freeway, while the Route 258/Western Avenue freeway was not officially proposed at the state level until 1965.
http://cahighways.org/265-272.html#LR265
http://cahighways.org/257-264.html#258
It however was on ACSC planning maps as early as 1947, as the "Normandie Freeway" along Normandie Avenue -
http://cahighways.org/maps/1947-la-acsc.jpg
LRN 64 was a very odd mix of signed routes: Route 74/one-time 740, part of Route 195 (including the pre-1970s east-west segment), and then US 60/70 (now I-10).
http://cahighways.org/057-064.html#064
--- Quote from: agentsteel53 ---
--- Quote ---(For that matter, Route 170 did not exist as a numbered designation until 1964, either, with much of that route being LRN 159. I remember reading some unsubstantiated rumor that 170 was going to be part of a US 6 reroute but I can't say that for sure - it would've made sense though as it would bypass the Pasadena Freeway.)
--- End quote ---
I certainly did not know that! It does explain the 170 patches on 1959-1961 guide signs on I-5 southbound. I'd thought they covered up white-spade 170 markers, but they must cover up something else - likely it is empty under the 1964-spec outline shield 170 shield, but if it's not empty, it would be great to know what number is under there!
--- End quote ---
If 170 didn't exist as a route number until 1964 - and considering it is an even-numbered north-south route (which did not exist for the most part in the 1934-1964 system) - white shields couldn't have been present, though I don't think a US highway shield's "peaks" would be hidden by a state shield, and don't remember seeing that at all. I HAVE also heard (but can't confirm) that the Pomona Freeway had, at one time, US 60 shields greened out before the route opened and covered up with (State) Route 60 signage, much like at the eastern end of the Moreno Valley Freeway.
agentsteel53:
--- Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 12:13:17 PM ---
Wow! Is this the only known example? My guess for the likeliest place for another LRN being noted in the field would be LRN 2, otherwise known as US 101.
--- End quote ---
only example I've ever seen.
--- Quote ---I don't think a US highway shield's "peaks" would be hidden by a state shield, and don't remember seeing that at all.
--- End quote ---
it seemed to me like the patches are big enough to hide an older US shield. these are small shields; as they appear on advance-mileage signs for the next three exits. the signs with larger shields at the intersection itself do not have patches.
they're this style of shield
(incidentally, that sign is still around! it now says "110", though, for both freeways)
--- Quote ---I HAVE also heard (but can't confirm) that the Pomona Freeway had, at one time, US 60 shields greened out before the route opened and covered up with (State) Route 60 signage, much like at the eastern end of the Moreno Valley Freeway.
--- End quote ---
I have no idea. I'm a bit confused about the history of route 60 through the area; for example, I-10 (San Bernardino Fwy) was once signed as US-60. Here is a 1955-57 sign (note the logos on both black signs) in a 1958 photo.
and here is a 1963 photo, with a sign whose spec I do not know. Definitely after 1959, and possibly as early as 1960, but maybe as late as 1963. (Ramona Fwy was renamed to San Bernardino Fwy in 1959, I think.)
there is a 60 patch at the east LA interchange on 5 southbound - the entire third row on the advance-exit sign is patched, not just the shield, implying to me that possibly the freeway was renamed as well as renumbered.
so I do not know when US-60 was moved from the Ramona/San Berdoo Fwy to the Pomona Fwy (and, at the same time, to the Moreno Valley Fwy?)
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