AARoads Forum

The Thruway only signs for Buffalo and Albany yet ignores Rochester and Syracuse; why exactly is that?

Also, why sign for Erie west of Buffalo and not for Cleveland?

If Erie was skipped in favor of Cleveland, wouldn't that be just like skipping Syracuse in favor of Albany?  :hmm:

(Personally I think Syracuse should be used since it's a major interstate junction and it would break up the extremely long "Albany to Buffalo" section, but I'm fine with Rochester being skipped since the Thruway doesn't go to Rochester.)

I should've worded it better; I meant that if the Thruway ignores Rochester and Syracuse, then it should also ignore Erie which is smaller than both. Basically, in other words, the Thruway should only sign for Erie if it also signs for Rochester and Syracuse. If the Thruway only signs for Buffalo and Albany, then it should also ignore Erie and just sign straight for Cleveland west out of Buffalo.

Also, it's weird that I-90 EB is actually signed for Albany/Rochester at the junction with I-190. I-290 EB is similarly signed for Rochester for its entire length.

The Thruway should use Syracuse and Rochester in addition to Buffalo. They're both significant enough and would help break up a very long drive. As for Erie, I could go either way. Ohio signs its northeastern highways (both I-90 and I-271) as "Erie Pa"  instead of Buffalo.

I think Erie is used because it's a major Interstate junction (I-79). Plenty of examples like that out there, but at least Erie is a proper city. Ask NCDOT why Benson is used on I-95 instead of Fayetteville or Rocky Mount.

They only do 1 control city on the sign, and Buffalo is the biggest city along it besides NY City.

Its also because back in the olden days when the Thruway was new, people didn't have gps and Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now, and almost everyone on the thruway was going to Buffalo, and they didn't wanna confuse anyone, and I guess it just sticked like that over time.

Quote from: TMETSJETSYT on August 27, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Its also because back in the olden days when the Thruway was new, people didn't have gps and Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now, and almost everyone on the thruway was going to Buffalo, and they didn't wanna confuse anyone, and I guess it just sticked like that over time.

Unsurprisingly, looking at population data, both Syracuse and Rochester had much higher populations when the Thruway was built than they do today.

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 27, 2022, 06:40:34 AM
The Thruway should use Syracuse and Rochester in addition to Buffalo. They're both significant enough and would help break up a very long drive. As for Erie, I could go either way. Ohio signs its northeastern highways (both I-90 and I-271) as "Erie Pa"  instead of Buffalo.

Let's not forget that Rochester and Syracuse (and also Utica) are used on distance signs.

Quote from: baugh17 on August 27, 2022, 01:32:57 PM

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 27, 2022, 06:40:34 AM
The Thruway should use Syracuse and Rochester in addition to Buffalo. They're both significant enough and would help break up a very long drive. As for Erie, I could go either way. Ohio signs its northeastern highways (both I-90 and I-271) as "Erie Pa"  instead of Buffalo.

Let's not forget that Rochester and Syracuse (and also Utica) are used on distance signs.

I think the thread author was referring to the main highways sings, tho you're right about the distance signs.

Regarding Albany, it's probably mainly there because it's the state capital and because it's where the Thruway turns from north/south to east/west.  The area just wasn't that big when the Thruway was built - I'd go so far as to say that the Capital District didn't even exist as a proper metro area back then, given that there were still large rural areas between the cities rather than suburbia back then (even the state office complex and SUNY Albany were farm country back then).  Today, meanwhile, the Capital District is larger than the Syracuse metro area (which is weird to think about, given that I grew up thinking of Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse as a set of similar areas).

Quote from: baugh17 on August 27, 2022, 01:32:57 PM

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 27, 2022, 06:40:34 AM
The Thruway should use Syracuse and Rochester in addition to Buffalo. They're both significant enough and would help break up a very long drive. As for Erie, I could go either way. Ohio signs its northeastern highways (both I-90 and I-271) as "Erie Pa"  instead of Buffalo.

Let's not forget that Rochester and Syracuse (and also Utica) are used on distance signs.

Speaking of distance signs, those have a few oddities too.  Northbound is obviously based on the Thruway but does make a concession for I-87 with Albany/Buffalo/Montreal.  Southbound uses only New York - I'd personally add Newburgh and/or Suffern (or perhaps Mahwah, matching NJ?) as those are major junctions (I-84 and I-287, respectively).  Westbound on the Berkshire Spur is Albany/New York/Buffalo and eastbound is Mass Pike/Boston (no Springfield).  On the mainline, westbound is Utica/Syracuse/Buffalo, Rochester/Syracuse/Buffalo, Buffalo/Niagara Falls, and PA Line/Erie; I'd replace Buffalo/Niagara Falls with Buffalo/Erie and PA Line/Erie with Erie/Cleveland.  Eastbound is Buffalo/Albany/New York, Buffalo/Niagara Falls, Rochester/Albany/New York, Syracuse/Albany/New York, Utica/Albany/New York, and Albany/New York; I'd delete the Buffalo/Niagara Falls sections and absorb it into Buffalo/Albany/New York, and add Boston east of Utica (I'd probably also delete New York, especially west of Utica, and replace it with other control cities; similarly, I'd delete probably Buffalo on the northbound Thruway and replace it with other control cities).  The EB Berkshire Spur could also be Springfield/Boston.

Quote from: vdeane on August 27, 2022, 05:43:37 PM
... I'd replace Buffalo/Niagara Falls with Buffalo/Erie and PA Line/Erie with Erie/Cleveland.  ... I'd delete the Buffalo/Niagara Falls sections and absorb it into Buffalo/Albany/New York, and add Boston east of Utica (I'd probably also delete New York, especially west of Utica, and replace it with other control cities; similarly, delete I'd probably Buffalo on the northbound Thruway and replace it with other control cities).

Agreed with pretty much all of that but especially these two points. It has always seemed odd to have Niagara Falls on the distance signs, since you'd take both I-290 and I-190 to reach the falls, and Buffalo alone is a fine approximation for where you exit the Thruway.

And yes, very little traffic west of I-81 is going to take the Thruway all the way to NYC, similarly very little traffic south of Albany is going to take the Thruway all the way to Buffalo. Those two extremes seem like a misleading attempt to keep traffic on the Thruway system even though it's not the fastest route.

Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2022, 11:21:28 PM

Quote from: vdeane on August 27, 2022, 05:43:37 PM
... I'd replace Buffalo/Niagara Falls with Buffalo/Erie and PA Line/Erie with Erie/Cleveland.  ... I'd delete the Buffalo/Niagara Falls sections and absorb it into Buffalo/Albany/New York, and add Boston east of Utica (I'd probably also delete New York, especially west of Utica, and replace it with other control cities; similarly, delete I'd probably Buffalo on the northbound Thruway and replace it with other control cities).

Agreed with pretty much all of that but especially these two points. It has always seemed odd to have Niagara Falls on the distance signs, since you'd take both I-290 and I-190 to reach the falls, and Buffalo alone is a fine approximation for where you exit the Thruway.

And yes, very little traffic west of I-81 is going to take the Thruway all the way to NYC, similarly very little traffic south of Albany is going to take the Thruway all the way to Buffalo. Those two extremes seem like a misleading attempt to keep traffic on the Thruway system even though it's not the fastest route.

Even though I am originally from the Syracuse area (and having lived about one mile south of the Thruway) having Albany as the control point for I-90 EB east of Buffalo is fine since, along with New York, Albany is listed on every distance sign from the PA/NY line to the Schenectady area.  There is no need to have a control point change every 70 miles along the Thruway.  The other cities are listed on distance signs along the way.  I would also keep Niagara Falls on distance signs WB because of the area being a tourist attraction.

The Thruway should have EB distance signs from Utica to Albany listing Albany, Boston, and New York.  SB should have a distance sign with Newburgh, Boston, and New York at mm 140, then after the Berkshire Connection interchange, list Kingston, Newburgh, and New York.  After Kingston, list Newburgh, Suffern, and New York.  After Newburgh, list just Suffern and New York.  Between Albany and New York there aren't any larger cities, like Syracuse and Rochester along the Buffalo-Albany section, so I chose some decent sized cities to list.

I would like to see Cleveland listed on the BGS's along with Erie at Exits 54 and 55.  There is enough room to add Cleveland to them.  Also, the WB Thruway southwest of Buffalo should have three line distance signs listing the PA Line, Erie, and Cleveland.  If the Thruway can do this EB, they should be able to do this WB.

Quote from: TMETSJETSYT on August 27, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now

I don't know about that. Rochester peaked in population in 1950 at 332,488; the 2020 census has it at 211,328 so Rochester is actually smaller than it was when the Thruway opened in the 1950's. Same with Syracuse it went from 220,583 in 1950 to 148,620 in 2020. So both were much bigger back in the day.

Quote from: Flint1979 on August 28, 2022, 11:15:13 PM

Quote from: TMETSJETSYT on August 27, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now

I don't know about that. Rochester peaked in population in 1950 at 332,488; the 2020 census has it at 211,328 so Rochester is actually smaller than it was when the Thruway opened in the 1950's. Same with Syracuse it went from 220,583 in 1950 to 148,620 in 2020. So both were much bigger back in the day.

Much of the population in these two areas are concentrated in the suburbs.  Monroe County has grown from ~487,000 residents in 1950 to ~759,000 residents in 2020.  Onondaga County has not grown as much, having ~423,000 residents in 1960 to ~476,000 residents in 2020 (figures acquired from Wikipedia).  Much of the Syracuse city proper population decline may be from residents wanting to move from one of the snowiest cities in the Northeast to a city with a warmer climate as well as with the closing of the GE Plant on Electronics Pkwy in Liverpool (where Lockheed-Martin is today) and with Carrier Corp. transferring much of their operations elsewhere.

Quote from: amroad17 on August 28, 2022, 11:49:48 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on August 28, 2022, 11:15:13 PM

Quote from: TMETSJETSYT on August 27, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now

I don't know about that. Rochester peaked in population in 1950 at 332,488; the 2020 census has it at 211,328 so Rochester is actually smaller than it was when the Thruway opened in the 1950's. Same with Syracuse it went from 220,583 in 1950 to 148,620 in 2020. So both were much bigger back in the day.

Much of the population in these two areas are concentrated in the suburbs.  Monroe County has grown from ~487,000 residents in 1950 to ~759,000 residents in 2020.  Onondaga County has not grown as much, having ~423,000 residents in 1960 to ~476,000 residents in 2020 (figures acquired from Wikipedia).  Much of the Syracuse city proper population decline may be from residents wanting to move from one of the snowiest cities in the Northeast to a city with a warmer climate as well as with the closing of the GE Plant on Electronics Pkwy in Liverpool (where Lockheed-Martin is today) and with Carrier Corp. transferring much of their operations elsewhere.

Buffalo metro population is, surprisingly, almost flat
(https://risecollaborative.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Screen-Shot-2017-05-01-at-12.03.37-PM-1772x1024.png)
I expect Syracuse to be shrinking, cannot find the data right now. Rochester should be affected by Kodak quite a bit

But overall, this reminds me discussion about Limon as a control city....

IMO the Thruway as well should sign Newburgh instead of Albany in the Lower Hudson.

Why Newburgh instead of Albany?  I could see Newburgh/Albany/Montreal, leaving off Buffalo, but I don't see why the next major metro area heading north should be left off.  It would be like leaving off Syracuse heading west from Albany.

Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2022, 11:44:21 AM
Why Newburgh instead of Albany?  I could see Newburgh/Albany/Montreal, leaving off Buffalo, but I don't see why the next major metro area heading north should be left off.  It would be like leaving off Syracuse heading west from Albany.

-Tappan Zee Bridge from Yonkers
-Newburgh from Tappen Zee Bridge
-Albany from Newburgh

Quote from: bluecountry on September 05, 2022, 09:01:50 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2022, 11:44:21 AM
Why Newburgh instead of Albany?  I could see Newburgh/Albany/Montreal, leaving off Buffalo, but I don't see why the next major metro area heading north should be left off.  It would be like leaving off Syracuse heading west from Albany.

-Tappan Zee Bridge from Yonkers
-Newburgh from Tappen Zee Bridge
-Albany from Newburgh

Are you not aware that the Albany metro area is the 4th largest in the state (larger than Syracuse, even)?  It makes ZERO sense to leave Albany off between Suffern and Newburgh.

Albany gets the point across, given what vdeane mentioned, not to mention the fact that it is the state capital. I would guess that hardly anyone knows where Newburgh is compared to Albany, especially outside of the Northeast.

I would not sign any other cities on the Thruway/87 between NYC and Albany. I would support adding Syracuse as a control city between Buffalo and Albany. Not Rochester though as the Thruway bypasses it.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 06, 2022, 12:05:48 AM
I would not sign any other cities on the Thruway/87 between NYC and Albany. I would support adding Syracuse as a control city between Buffalo and Albany. Not Rochester though as the Thruway bypasses it.

But the I-490 loop serves it, so I'm fine with Rochester.

Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2022, 10:01:18 PM

Quote from: bluecountry on September 05, 2022, 09:01:50 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2022, 11:44:21 AM
Why Newburgh instead of Albany?  I could see Newburgh/Albany/Montreal, leaving off Buffalo, but I don't see why the next major metro area heading north should be left off.  It would be like leaving off Syracuse heading west from Albany.

-Tappan Zee Bridge from Yonkers
-Newburgh from Tappen Zee Bridge
-Albany from Newburgh

Are you not aware that the Albany metro area is the 4th largest in the state (larger than Syracuse, even)?  It makes ZERO sense to leave Albany off between Suffern and Newburgh.

I think it is pre-mature to sign 'Albany' prior to the Mahwah/287 exit.

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:46:09 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 06, 2022, 12:05:48 AM
I would not sign any other cities on the Thruway/87 between NYC and Albany. I would support adding Syracuse as a control city between Buffalo and Albany. Not Rochester though as the Thruway bypasses it.

But the I-490 loop serves it, so I'm fine with Rochester.

Still a bit too Pennsylvania-esque for my liking, although at least Rochester is bigger than Hazleton or Bellefonte :D

Quote from: bluecountry on September 07, 2022, 08:55:56 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2022, 10:01:18 PM

Quote from: bluecountry on September 05, 2022, 09:01:50 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2022, 11:44:21 AM
Why Newburgh instead of Albany?  I could see Newburgh/Albany/Montreal, leaving off Buffalo, but I don't see why the next major metro area heading north should be left off.  It would be like leaving off Syracuse heading west from Albany.

-Tappan Zee Bridge from Yonkers
-Newburgh from Tappen Zee Bridge
-Albany from Newburgh

Are you not aware that the Albany metro area is the 4th largest in the state (larger than Syracuse, even)?  It makes ZERO sense to leave Albany off between Suffern and Newburgh.

I think it is pre-mature to sign 'Albany' prior to the Mahwah/287 exit.

I can understand not having Albany as the signed control city south of I-287, but exit 15 is 30 miles south of Newburgh.

Quote from: vdeane on September 08, 2022, 08:35:26 PM

Quote from: bluecountry on September 07, 2022, 08:55:56 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2022, 10:01:18 PM

Quote from: bluecountry on September 05, 2022, 09:01:50 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2022, 11:44:21 AM
Why Newburgh instead of Albany?  I could see Newburgh/Albany/Montreal, leaving off Buffalo, but I don't see why the next major metro area heading north should be left off.  It would be like leaving off Syracuse heading west from Albany.

-Tappan Zee Bridge from Yonkers
-Newburgh from Tappen Zee Bridge
-Albany from Newburgh

Are you not aware that the Albany metro area is the 4th largest in the state (larger than Syracuse, even)?  It makes ZERO sense to leave Albany off between Suffern and Newburgh.

I think it is pre-mature to sign 'Albany' prior to the Mahwah/287 exit.

I can understand not having Albany as the signed control city south of I-287, but exit 15 is 30 miles south of Newburgh.

Yes, no Albany prior to 287.

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:46:09 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 06, 2022, 12:05:48 AM
I would not sign any other cities on the Thruway/87 between NYC and Albany. I would support adding Syracuse as a control city between Buffalo and Albany. Not Rochester though as the Thruway bypasses it.

But the I-490 loop serves it, so I'm fine with Rochester.

And conversely, Buffalo is signed from Rochester on I-490, implicitly via the Thruway.

Hmm, so after some consideration, I'm actually fine with the Thruway ignoring Rochester and Syracuse....BUT I feel like it should also ignore Erie and just sign straight for Cleveland because I'm pretty sure Rochester and Syracuse are both bigger than Erie. 

Heck, maybe you could even sign it for Pittsburgh/Cleveland to reflect the later junction with I-79.

Quote from: bluecountry on September 11, 2022, 06:48:15 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 08, 2022, 08:35:26 PM

Quote from: bluecountry on September 07, 2022, 08:55:56 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2022, 10:01:18 PM

Quote from: bluecountry on September 05, 2022, 09:01:50 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2022, 11:44:21 AM
Why Newburgh instead of Albany?  I could see Newburgh/Albany/Montreal, leaving off Buffalo, but I don't see why the next major metro area heading north should be left off.  It would be like leaving off Syracuse heading west from Albany.

-Tappan Zee Bridge from Yonkers
-Newburgh from Tappen Zee Bridge
-Albany from Newburgh

Are you not aware that the Albany metro area is the 4th largest in the state (larger than Syracuse, even)?  It makes ZERO sense to leave Albany off between Suffern and Newburgh.

I think it is pre-mature to sign 'Albany' prior to the Mahwah/287 exit.

I can understand not having Albany as the signed control city south of I-287, but exit 15 is 30 miles south of Newburgh.

Yes, no Albany prior to 287.

So if no Albany before 287, what would you sign it?  I've always been partial to old fashioned control points that NYC used to use... "Upstate" for the Deegan/I-87, "New England" for I-95.  Most everyone knows Albany and its location, but would they necessarily know Suffern or Newburgh?  What would you suggest for use on the Cross Bronx exit for I-87, if not Albany?

Tappan Zee Bridge.

The TA lists both cities on their distance BGSs. I'd call that a compromise.

Quote from: bluecountry on September 19, 2022, 07:31:11 AM
Tappan Zee Bridge.

Ummm, it's the Gov. Mario M. Cuomo Bridge :bigass:

(Posted this comment in another thread but figured I'd put it here as well)

Tbh, I can accept not signing Rochester and Syracuse on the overhead signs but I'd definitely change the mileage signs on I-90 a little bit:

EB: Buffalo/Rochester/Albany, Rochester/Syracuse/Albany, Syracuse/Albany/Boston, Utica/Albany/Boston, Albany/New York City/Boston, Springfield/Worcester/Boston

WB: Albany/Syracuse/Buffalo, Syracuse/Rochester/Buffalo, Rochester/Buffalo/Niagara Falls, Buffalo/Niagara Falls/Erie PA, Fredonia/Erie PA/Cleveland, Erie PA/Cleveland/Chicago

Also, I'd definitely change I-90 WB overhead signage in the Buffalo area from "Erie" to "Erie PA/Cleveland".

Quote from: TMETSJETSYT on August 27, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Its also because back in the olden days when the Thruway was new, people didn't have gps and Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now, and almost everyone on the thruway was going to Buffalo, and they didn't wanna confuse anyone, and I guess it just sticked like that over time.

Actually both Rochester and Syracuse have lost population and were bigger back in the day.

Geez I just realized I already replied.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2023, 05:13:02 PM

Quote from: TMETSJETSYT on August 27, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Its also because back in the olden days when the Thruway was new, people didn't have gps and Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now, and almost everyone on the thruway was going to Buffalo, and they didn't wanna confuse anyone, and I guess it just sticked like that over time.

Actually both Rochester and Syracuse have lost population and were bigger back in the day.

That's true of the city propers, but both are on a slight rebound in recent years and both metro areas as a whole have held steady for decades.

Quote from: webny99 on February 08, 2023, 08:42:02 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2023, 05:13:02 PM

Quote from: TMETSJETSYT on August 27, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Its also because back in the olden days when the Thruway was new, people didn't have gps and Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now, and almost everyone on the thruway was going to Buffalo, and they didn't wanna confuse anyone, and I guess it just sticked like that over time.

Actually both Rochester and Syracuse have lost population and were bigger back in the day.

That's true of the city propers, but both are on a slight rebound in recent years and both metro areas as a whole have held steady for decades.

That seems to be true with a lot of cities like that that have just spread out into the suburbs. Like Detroit has lost 1.2 million people or more in the city proper but the metro area has basically remained the same population for like 40-50 years.

Quote from: shadyjay on September 18, 2022, 08:31:08 PM
So if no Albany before 287, what would you sign it?  I've always been partial to old fashioned control points that NYC used to use... "Upstate" for the Deegan/I-87, "New England" for I-95.  Most everyone knows Albany and its location, but would they necessarily know Suffern or Newburgh?  What would you suggest for use on the Cross Bronx exit for I-87, if not Albany?

These days the Garden State Parkway even uses Albany: https://goo.gl/maps/ffaHaAy53rmXp8647

NYTA installed signs on I-287 south of the NJ/NY line are keeping the Tappan Zee alive too.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2023, 09:08:06 PM

Quote from: webny99 on February 08, 2023, 08:42:02 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2023, 05:13:02 PM

Quote from: TMETSJETSYT on August 27, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Its also because back in the olden days when the Thruway was new, people didn't have gps and Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now, and almost everyone on the thruway was going to Buffalo, and they didn't wanna confuse anyone, and I guess it just sticked like that over time.

Actually both Rochester and Syracuse have lost population and were bigger back in the day.

That's true of the city propers, but both are on a slight rebound in recent years and both metro areas as a whole have held steady for decades.

That seems to be true with a lot of cities like that that have just spread out into the suburbs. Like Detroit has lost 1.2 million people or more in the city proper but the metro area has basically remained the same population for like 40-50 years.

.... while country population doubled

Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 04:24:43 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2023, 09:08:06 PM

Quote from: webny99 on February 08, 2023, 08:42:02 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2023, 05:13:02 PM

Quote from: TMETSJETSYT on August 27, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Its also because back in the olden days when the Thruway was new, people didn't have gps and Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now, and almost everyone on the thruway was going to Buffalo, and they didn't wanna confuse anyone, and I guess it just sticked like that over time.

Actually both Rochester and Syracuse have lost population and were bigger back in the day.

That's true of the city propers, but both are on a slight rebound in recent years and both metro areas as a whole have held steady for decades.

That seems to be true with a lot of cities like that that have just spread out into the suburbs. Like Detroit has lost 1.2 million people or more in the city proper but the metro area has basically remained the same population for like 40-50 years.

.... while country population doubled

Wut.

Quote from: Rothman on February 09, 2023, 09:16:11 AM

Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 04:24:43 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2023, 09:08:06 PM

Quote from: webny99 on February 08, 2023, 08:42:02 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 08, 2023, 05:13:02 PM

Quote from: TMETSJETSYT on August 27, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Its also because back in the olden days when the Thruway was new, people didn't have gps and Rochester and Syracuse were not as big as they are now, and almost everyone on the thruway was going to Buffalo, and they didn't wanna confuse anyone, and I guess it just sticked like that over time.

Actually both Rochester and Syracuse have lost population and were bigger back in the day.

That's true of the city propers, but both are on a slight rebound in recent years and both metro areas as a whole have held steady for decades.

That seems to be true with a lot of cities like that that have just spread out into the suburbs. Like Detroit has lost 1.2 million people or more in the city proper but the metro area has basically remained the same population for like 40-50 years.

.... while country population doubled

Wut.

> basically remained the same population for like 40-50 years.
USA population 50 years ago, 1973, was 211M vs 311M today. I stand corrected, this is a bit over 50% growth only 
1955 population is the half of today's number. 

I-87 should be signed Albany south of I-287. I don't like control bridges and I-87 is the main road form NYC to upstate, and Albany is one of the biggest cities upstate.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 09, 2023, 10:24:29 AM
I-87 should be signed Albany south of I-287. I don't like control bridges and I-87 is the main road form NYC to upstate, and Albany is one of the biggest cities upstate.

Albany is signed for I-87 north at its southern end at I-278.

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 09, 2023, 10:29:09 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 09, 2023, 10:24:29 AM
I-87 should be signed Albany south of I-287. I don't like control bridges and I-87 is the main road form NYC to upstate, and Albany is one of the biggest cities upstate.

Albany is signed for I-87 north at its southern end at I-278.

I know. Someone said it shouldn't, so I was debating that.

Quote from: James on September 17, 2022, 04:30:21 PM
Hmm, so after some consideration, I'm actually fine with the Thruway ignoring Rochester and Syracuse....BUT I feel like it should also ignore Erie and just sign straight for Cleveland because I'm pretty sure Rochester and Syracuse are both bigger than Erie. 

Heck, maybe you could even sign it for Pittsburgh/Cleveland to reflect the later junction with I-79.

Or use Erie/Cleveland as dual control cities west of Buffalo, but have a trailblazer sign on I-90 westbound near the I-190 junction that reads


TO [I-79] South
Pittsburgh
FOLLOW [I-90][NYS Thruway] West

Quote from: Gnutella on February 16, 2023, 11:15:50 PM

Quote from: James on September 17, 2022, 04:30:21 PM
Hmm, so after some consideration, I'm actually fine with the Thruway ignoring Rochester and Syracuse....BUT I feel like it should also ignore Erie and just sign straight for Cleveland because I'm pretty sure Rochester and Syracuse are both bigger than Erie. 

Heck, maybe you could even sign it for Pittsburgh/Cleveland to reflect the later junction with I-79.

Or use Erie/Cleveland as dual control cities west of Buffalo, but have a trailblazer sign on I-90 westbound near the I-190 junction that reads


TO [I-79] South
Pittsburgh
FOLLOW [I-90][NYS Thruway] West

I would use Erie at most minor intersections but would put Cleveland on the mileage signs and with Erie at major intersections. PA puts Buffalo on mileage signs even before Erie so there is precedence.

Rochester is signed on overhead signs in Buffalo. You can't read them because of the reflective tape, but it's signed. I *think* they're pasted over Niagara Falls, when traffic to Niagara Falls from the west was encouraged to use I-290 instead of I-190, and then when they replaced the signs with the non-reflective Clearview junk they kept "Rochester"  on the overhead signs.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 17, 2023, 12:21:54 AM

Quote from: Gnutella on February 16, 2023, 11:15:50 PM

Quote from: James on September 17, 2022, 04:30:21 PM
Hmm, so after some consideration, I'm actually fine with the Thruway ignoring Rochester and Syracuse....BUT I feel like it should also ignore Erie and just sign straight for Cleveland because I'm pretty sure Rochester and Syracuse are both bigger than Erie. 

Heck, maybe you could even sign it for Pittsburgh/Cleveland to reflect the later junction with I-79.

Or use Erie/Cleveland as dual control cities west of Buffalo, but have a trailblazer sign on I-90 westbound near the I-190 junction that reads


TO [I-79] South
Pittsburgh
FOLLOW [I-90][NYS Thruway] West

I would use Erie at most minor intersections but would put Cleveland on the mileage signs and with Erie at major intersections. PA puts Buffalo on mileage signs even before Erie so there is precedence.

Buffalo is only about 90 miles from Erie so it makes perfect sense for them to put Buffalo on milage signs. Erie is still the control city until you get to I-79, then it's Buffalo going east.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 07:25:34 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 17, 2023, 12:21:54 AM

Quote from: Gnutella on February 16, 2023, 11:15:50 PM

Quote from: James on September 17, 2022, 04:30:21 PM
Hmm, so after some consideration, I'm actually fine with the Thruway ignoring Rochester and Syracuse....BUT I feel like it should also ignore Erie and just sign straight for Cleveland because I'm pretty sure Rochester and Syracuse are both bigger than Erie. 

Heck, maybe you could even sign it for Pittsburgh/Cleveland to reflect the later junction with I-79.

Or use Erie/Cleveland as dual control cities west of Buffalo, but have a trailblazer sign on I-90 westbound near the I-190 junction that reads


TO [I-79] South
Pittsburgh
FOLLOW [I-90][NYS Thruway] West

I would use Erie at most minor intersections but would put Cleveland on the mileage signs and with Erie at major intersections. PA puts Buffalo on mileage signs even before Erie so there is precedence.

Buffalo is only about 90 miles from Erie so it makes perfect sense for them to put Buffalo on milage signs. Erie is still the control city until you get to I-79, then it's Buffalo going east.

But it's PA and you know how they sign control cities most of the time.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 12:44:12 PMBut it's PA and you know how they sign control cities most of the time.

I-80 isn't most of the time. I-80 puts them in a tough spot because it doesn't serve any major cities, but most of their other control cities are fine.

Quote from: webny99 on February 22, 2023, 02:44:15 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 12:44:12 PMBut it's PA and you know how they sign control cities most of the time.

I-80 isn't most of the time. I-80 puts them in a tough spot because it doesn't serve any major cities, but most of their other control cities are fine.

Hazelton, Carlisle, New Stanton, Washington, Milford...

As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

I don't see what the difference is. They are all major cities in their respective states. Western Michigan is a pretty major university btw.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:34:52 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

I don't see what the difference is. They are all major cities in their respective states. Western Michigan is a pretty major university btw.

I'm saying that for outsiders not from Upstate NY or Michigan, Rochester/Syracuse are probably better known than Kalamazoo/Battle Creek due to being much bigger cities.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:38:15 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:34:52 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

I don't see what the difference is. They are all major cities in their respective states. Western Michigan is a pretty major university btw.

I'm saying that for outsiders not from Upstate NY or Michigan, Rochester/Syracuse are probably better known than Kalamazoo/Battle Creek due to being much bigger cities.

I don't know about that. Kalamazoo and Battle Creek are both pretty well known cities. I guess it depends on what you are thinking of.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:45:28 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:38:15 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:34:52 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

I don't see what the difference is. They are all major cities in their respective states. Western Michigan is a pretty major university btw.

I'm saying that for outsiders not from Upstate NY or Michigan, Rochester/Syracuse are probably better known than Kalamazoo/Battle Creek due to being much bigger cities.

I don't know about that. Kalamazoo and Battle Creek are both pretty well known cities. I guess it depends on what you are thinking of.

What is special about Battle Creek exactly? Even Utica is bigger than Battle Creek.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:45:28 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:38:15 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:34:52 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

I don't see what the difference is. They are all major cities in their respective states. Western Michigan is a pretty major university btw.

I'm saying that for outsiders not from Upstate NY or Michigan, Rochester/Syracuse are probably better known than Kalamazoo/Battle Creek due to being much bigger cities.

I don't know about that. Kalamazoo and Battle Creek are both pretty well known cities. I guess it depends on what you are thinking of.

What is special about Battle Creek exactly? Even Utica is bigger than Battle Creek.

Battle Creek is home to Kellogg's cereal and they also have an x94 there.

Bedford MA is home to iRobot. It doesn't warrant a control city on I-95.

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 22, 2023, 04:48:48 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:45:28 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:38:15 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:34:52 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

I don't see what the difference is. They are all major cities in their respective states. Western Michigan is a pretty major university btw.

I'm saying that for outsiders not from Upstate NY or Michigan, Rochester/Syracuse are probably better known than Kalamazoo/Battle Creek due to being much bigger cities.

I don't know about that. Kalamazoo and Battle Creek are both pretty well known cities. I guess it depends on what you are thinking of.

What is special about Battle Creek exactly? Even Utica is bigger than Battle Creek.

Battle Creek is home to Kellogg's cereal and they also have an x94 there.

Got it, I knew there was something special about the city that I was forgetting. For normal people, the x94 would not be relevent. Kingston NY also has a 3 digit interstate and nobody cares about Kingston.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:45:28 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:38:15 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:34:52 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

I don't see what the difference is. They are all major cities in their respective states. Western Michigan is a pretty major university btw.

I'm saying that for outsiders not from Upstate NY or Michigan, Rochester/Syracuse are probably better known than Kalamazoo/Battle Creek due to being much bigger cities.

I don't know about that. Kalamazoo and Battle Creek are both pretty well known cities. I guess it depends on what you are thinking of.

What is special about Battle Creek exactly? Even Utica is bigger than Battle Creek.

Oh let's see it's the home of Kellogg's, the founding city of Post both breakfast cereals for one thing. It's a decent sized city. As far as control cities though Kalamazoo should be used over it on I-94. Like I said earlier though using Chicago is no big deal.

Battle Creek isn't well-known.  Kalamazoo is just a funny name.

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 04:50:10 PM
Bedford MA is home to iRobot. It doesn't warrant a control city on I-95.

Really though Bedford is just a random place in a mixture of other suburbs around Boston where other cities should be used. I'm not the one saying that Battle Creek should be a control city though, I'd go for Kalamazoo and Jackson in that spot. Kalamazoo is the junction with US-131 and Jackson is the junction with US-127 both major freeways.

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:54:21 PM
Battle Creek isn't well-known.  Kalamazoo is just a funny name.

Battle Creek is pretty well known in the Great Lakes region especially in Michigan.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:55:53 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 04:50:10 PM
Bedford MA is home to iRobot. It doesn't warrant a control city on I-95.

Really though Bedford is just a random place in a mixture of other suburbs around Boston where other cities should be used. I'm not the one saying that Battle Creek should be a control city though, I'd go for Kalamazoo and Jackson in that spot. Kalamazoo is the junction with US-131 and Jackson is the junction with US-127 both major freeways.

Kalazmazoo maybe, Jackson should absolutly not be a control city.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 05:00:25 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:55:53 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 04:50:10 PM
Bedford MA is home to iRobot. It doesn't warrant a control city on I-95.

Really though Bedford is just a random place in a mixture of other suburbs around Boston where other cities should be used. I'm not the one saying that Battle Creek should be a control city though, I'd go for Kalamazoo and Jackson in that spot. Kalamazoo is the junction with US-131 and Jackson is the junction with US-127 both major freeways.

Kalazmazoo maybe, Jackson should absolutly not be a control city.

Jackson is fine as a control city and it is used as a control city on I-94.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 05:07:50 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 05:00:25 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:55:53 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 04:50:10 PM
Bedford MA is home to iRobot. It doesn't warrant a control city on I-95.

Really though Bedford is just a random place in a mixture of other suburbs around Boston where other cities should be used. I'm not the one saying that Battle Creek should be a control city though, I'd go for Kalamazoo and Jackson in that spot. Kalamazoo is the junction with US-131 and Jackson is the junction with US-127 both major freeways.

Kalazmazoo maybe, Jackson should absolutly not be a control city.

Jackson is fine as a control city and it is used as a control city on I-94.

I'd rather have Battle Creek than Jackson.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 05:11:39 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 05:07:50 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 05:00:25 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:55:53 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 04:50:10 PM
Bedford MA is home to iRobot. It doesn't warrant a control city on I-95.

Really though Bedford is just a random place in a mixture of other suburbs around Boston where other cities should be used. I'm not the one saying that Battle Creek should be a control city though, I'd go for Kalamazoo and Jackson in that spot. Kalamazoo is the junction with US-131 and Jackson is the junction with US-127 both major freeways.

Kalazmazoo maybe, Jackson should absolutly not be a control city.

Jackson is fine as a control city and it is used as a control city on I-94.

I'd rather have Battle Creek than Jackson.

Why? If you're heading EB you are already past Battle Creek when you are heading toward Jackson, if you're east of Jackson then Battle Creek is too far for local traffic when Jackson comes way before it. Jackson and Marshall are used due to being at highway junctions. It seems like everyone tries to discredit a city for being at a highway junction being used for a control city.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 05:20:36 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 05:11:39 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 05:07:50 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 05:00:25 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:55:53 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 04:50:10 PM
Bedford MA is home to iRobot. It doesn't warrant a control city on I-95.

Really though Bedford is just a random place in a mixture of other suburbs around Boston where other cities should be used. I'm not the one saying that Battle Creek should be a control city though, I'd go for Kalamazoo and Jackson in that spot. Kalamazoo is the junction with US-131 and Jackson is the junction with US-127 both major freeways.

Kalazmazoo maybe, Jackson should absolutly not be a control city.

Jackson is fine as a control city and it is used as a control city on I-94.

I'd rather have Battle Creek than Jackson.

Why? If you're heading EB you are already past Battle Creek when you are heading toward Jackson, if you're east of Jackson then Battle Creek is too far for local traffic when Jackson comes way before it. Jackson and Marshall are used due to being at highway junctions. It seems like everyone tries to discredit a city for being at a highway junction being used for a control city.

Looking at the map though it does look like Jackson makes a bit of sense. Would prefer just using Kalamazoo though if you need something in between Chicago and Detroit.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:57:12 PM

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:54:21 PM
Battle Creek isn't well-known.  Kalamazoo is just a funny name.

Battle Creek is pretty well known in the Great Lakes region especially in Michigan.

Ok.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 05:32:18 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 05:20:36 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 05:11:39 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 05:07:50 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 05:00:25 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:55:53 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 04:50:10 PM
Bedford MA is home to iRobot. It doesn't warrant a control city on I-95.

Really though Bedford is just a random place in a mixture of other suburbs around Boston where other cities should be used. I'm not the one saying that Battle Creek should be a control city though, I'd go for Kalamazoo and Jackson in that spot. Kalamazoo is the junction with US-131 and Jackson is the junction with US-127 both major freeways.

Kalazmazoo maybe, Jackson should absolutly not be a control city.

Jackson is fine as a control city and it is used as a control city on I-94.

I'd rather have Battle Creek than Jackson.

Why? If you're heading EB you are already past Battle Creek when you are heading toward Jackson, if you're east of Jackson then Battle Creek is too far for local traffic when Jackson comes way before it. Jackson and Marshall are used due to being at highway junctions. It seems like everyone tries to discredit a city for being at a highway junction being used for a control city.

Looking at the map though it does look like Jackson makes a bit of sense. Would prefer just using Kalamazoo though if you need something in between Chicago and Detroit.

Well if you were only going to use one city between Chicago and Detroit then Kalamazoo would be it. It's the halfway point between the two cities and is large enough to be a control city. I'm not sure if using Kalamazoo in Chicago would be the right choice though, they could stick with Indiana like they already have, then perhaps INDOT and MDOT could use Kalamazoo on I-94 after the split from I-80. Between Chicago and the I-94/80 split in Lake Station I think South Bend would be the proper choice. And going north from Chicago it should be Milwaukee not Wisconsin.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

Since NY population is twice that of Michigan, that ends up as regionally comparable cities...

Quote from: kalvado on February 22, 2023, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

Since NY population is twice that of Michigan, that ends up as regionally comparable cities...

Why does it matter whether New York City, almost 200 miles away, is there as opposed to being somehow absent or being in New Jersey (in which case Michigan and New York would have similar populations)?

Quote from: kalvado on February 22, 2023, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

Since NY population is twice that of Michigan, that ends up as regionally comparable cities...

Upstate New York is kind of like its own state. About as much connection between Syracuse and NYC as Kalamazoo and Chicago.

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 05:44:08 PM

Quote from: kalvado on February 22, 2023, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

Since NY population is twice that of Michigan, that ends up as regionally comparable cities...

Why does it matter whether New York City, almost 200 miles away, is there as opposed to being somehow absent or being in New Jersey (in which case Michigan and New York would have similar populations)?

And Detroit MSA is half of MI population.

There are interesting concepts of prominence and isolation in geography.  Isolation of peak is how far the nearest higher point is; and prominence is how low you need to go down to reach higher elevation (possibly not the same as nearest one!)
So isolation of a city (MSA) would be the distance to the nearest bigger city, if we use the similarity. Would be fun to look at those.
Back to original topic, isolation of both Syracuse and Rochester isn't great as Buffalo isn;t far from Rochester; and ROchester in turn not far from Syracuse which is smaller than both Buffalo and Rochester. Less than 100 miles for both cases
Now someone may try the same thing for Michigan?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 05:53:15 PM

Quote from: kalvado on February 22, 2023, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

Since NY population is twice that of Michigan, that ends up as regionally comparable cities...

Upstate New York is kind of like its own state. About as much connection between Syracuse and NYC as Kalamazoo and Chicago.

Well Kalamazoo and Chicago are 150 miles apart, Syracuse and NYC are 250 miles apart and the fastest route isn't the NYS Thruway it's I-81 to I-84 to I-380 to I-80 to I-95.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:38:15 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:34:52 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

I don't see what the difference is. They are all major cities in their respective states. Western Michigan is a pretty major university btw.

I'm saying that for outsiders not from Upstate NY or Michigan, Rochester/Syracuse are probably better known than Kalamazoo/Battle Creek due to being much bigger cities.

Which was my point exactly. For people from outside the respective areas, neither Rochester/Syracuse nor Kalamazoo/Battle Creek are that well known. You might know they exist, but you don't know where they are or what roads go to/near them.

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 06:21:08 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:38:15 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 04:34:52 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

I don't see what the difference is. They are all major cities in their respective states. Western Michigan is a pretty major university btw.

I'm saying that for outsiders not from Upstate NY or Michigan, Rochester/Syracuse are probably better known than Kalamazoo/Battle Creek due to being much bigger cities.

Which was my point exactly. For people from outside the respective areas, neither Rochester/Syracuse nor Kalamazoo/Battle Creek are that well known. You might know they exist, but you don't know where they are or what roads go to/near them.

But I'm pretty sure that the NY duo are more famous due to them being much bigger cities, and Syracuse having an ACC Power 5 school.

College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

You ever heard of the University of Michigan? I guess Ann Arbor should be a control city too.

How many Rochester's are there in the US? There's one in New York, one in Michigan and one in Minnesota that I know of off the top of my head.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 06:27:29 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

You ever heard of the University of Michigan? I guess Ann Arbor should be a control city too.

Wouldn't be completely opposed to signing Ann Arbor in Detroit, especially as a secondary. Chicago works just fine however. Having a big college doesn't make a control city, but would Tuscoloosa be one with Bama? Or would they just skip to Meridian and Birmingham?

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:28:03 PM
How many Rochester's are there in the US? There's one in New York, one in Michigan and one in Minnesota that I know of off the top of my head.

Never heard of the Michigan one. The Minnesota one is probably the only other one that people may have heard of due to the Mayo Clinic.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

Sure but chocolate chip cookies were invented in Whitman, Massachusetts. Should be sign Whitman instead of Boston and Cape Cod on MA 3?

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 06:27:29 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

You ever heard of the University of Michigan? I guess Ann Arbor should be a control city too.

Or let's make East Lansing a control city instead of Lansing. I remember on WMMQ they use East Lansing and DeWitt as their broadcast cities on the radio at the top of the hour.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:30:26 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 06:27:29 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

You ever heard of the University of Michigan? I guess Ann Arbor should be a control city too.

Wouldn't be completely opposed to signing Ann Arbor in Detroit, especially as a secondary. Chicago works just fine however. Having a big college doesn't make a control city, but would Tuscoloosa be one with Bama? Or would they just skip to Meridian and Birmingham?

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:28:03 PM
How many Rochester's are there in the US? There's one in New York, one in Michigan and one in Minnesota that I know of off the top of my head.

Never heard of the Michigan one. The Minnesota one is probably the only other one that people may have heard of due to the Mayo Clinic.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

Sure but chocolate chip cookies were invented in Whitman, Massachusetts. Should be sign Whitman instead of Boston and Cape Cod on MA 3?

That isn't even a good example.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:31:08 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 06:27:29 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

You ever heard of the University of Michigan? I guess Ann Arbor should be a control city too.

Or let's make East Lansing a control city instead of Lansing. I remember on WMMQ they use East Lansing and DeWitt as their broadcast cities on the radio at the top of the hour.

I bet that most people that don't live in Michigan probably think that MSU is in Lansing, not East Lansing.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:31:38 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:30:26 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 06:27:29 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

You ever heard of the University of Michigan? I guess Ann Arbor should be a control city too.

Wouldn't be completely opposed to signing Ann Arbor in Detroit, especially as a secondary. Chicago works just fine however. Having a big college doesn't make a control city, but would Tuscoloosa be one with Bama? Or would they just skip to Meridian and Birmingham?

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:28:03 PM
How many Rochester's are there in the US? There's one in New York, one in Michigan and one in Minnesota that I know of off the top of my head.

Never heard of the Michigan one. The Minnesota one is probably the only other one that people may have heard of due to the Mayo Clinic.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

Sure but chocolate chip cookies were invented in Whitman, Massachusetts. Should be sign Whitman instead of Boston and Cape Cod on MA 3?

That isn't even a good example.

I think it's fine. Just because a major company is headquartered somewhere doesn't mean it's control city status. Google is headquartered in Mountain View CA. Should we sign Mountain View on US 101 instead of San Jose and San Francisco?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:32:51 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:31:08 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 06:27:29 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

You ever heard of the University of Michigan? I guess Ann Arbor should be a control city too.

Or let's make East Lansing a control city instead of Lansing. I remember on WMMQ they use East Lansing and DeWitt as their broadcast cities on the radio at the top of the hour.

I bet that most people that don't live in Michigan probably think that MSU is in Lansing, not East Lansing.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:31:38 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:30:26 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 06:27:29 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

You ever heard of the University of Michigan? I guess Ann Arbor should be a control city too.

Wouldn't be completely opposed to signing Ann Arbor in Detroit, especially as a secondary. Chicago works just fine however. Having a big college doesn't make a control city, but would Tuscoloosa be one with Bama? Or would they just skip to Meridian and Birmingham?

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:28:03 PM
How many Rochester's are there in the US? There's one in New York, one in Michigan and one in Minnesota that I know of off the top of my head.

Never heard of the Michigan one. The Minnesota one is probably the only other one that people may have heard of due to the Mayo Clinic.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

Sure but chocolate chip cookies were invented in Whitman, Massachusetts. Should be sign Whitman instead of Boston and Cape Cod on MA 3?

That isn't even a good example.

I think it's fine. Just because a major company is headquartered somewhere doesn't mean it's control city status. Google is headquartered in Mountain View CA. Should we sign Mountain View on US 101 instead of San Jose and San Francisco?

No because it's a random city in the Bay Area. Battle Creek isn't even a random city in Michigan, it's one of the bigger cities in the state. I never even really said it SHOULD be used as a control city, it wouldn't be a bad choice though.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:28:03 PM
How many Rochester's are there in the US? There's one in New York, one in Michigan and one in Minnesota that I know of off the top of my head.

More than 20, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester
Including 2 in NY and 2 in OH

Quote from: kalvado on February 22, 2023, 06:37:24 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:28:03 PM
How many Rochester's are there in the US? There's one in New York, one in Michigan and one in Minnesota that I know of off the top of my head.

More than 20, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester
Including 2 in NY and 2 in OH

That's probably not the most popular name but it seems like theres one in every state.

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 06:27:29 PM
You ever heard of the University of Michigan? I guess Ann Arbor should be a control city too.

(https://www.teresco.org/pics/signs/20070710/i94split.jpg)

Quote from: kalvado on February 22, 2023, 05:57:06 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 05:44:08 PM

Quote from: kalvado on February 22, 2023, 05:41:24 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM
As an out-of-stater but with a fairly good grasp of geography, I know where Buffalo, Albany and New York are. I have a general idea that Rochester and Syracuse are somewhere east of Buffalo, but I'm not sure how far east nor do I always remember which comes first. As far as anything in the Hudson Valley between NYC and Albany, forget knowing where anything really is.

I'd bet it would be like someone from New York or Mass knowing that there are cities in Michigan named Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and that maybe they'd know they were between Detroit and Chicago, but they couldn't really place them given a blank map.

Syracuse is twice the size of Kalamazoo and it has a major university. (Sorry WMU, you don't count as major). It also has over half a million in metro population, Kalamazoo is only about 200K. Rocheste is even bigger than Syracuse. Battle Creek is smaller than even Utica.

Since NY population is twice that of Michigan, that ends up as regionally comparable cities...

Why does it matter whether New York City, almost 200 miles away, is there as opposed to being somehow absent or being in New Jersey (in which case Michigan and New York would have similar populations)?

And Detroit MSA is half of MI population.

There are interesting concepts of prominence and isolation in geography.  Isolation of peak is how far the nearest higher point is; and prominence is how low you need to go down to reach higher elevation (possibly not the same as nearest one!)
So isolation of a city (MSA) would be the distance to the nearest bigger city, if we use the similarity. Would be fun to look at those.
Back to original topic, isolation of both Syracuse and Rochester isn't great as Buffalo isn;t far from Rochester; and ROchester in turn not far from Syracuse which is smaller than both Buffalo and Rochester. Less than 100 miles for both cases
Now someone may try the same thing for Michigan?

Meanwhile, the NYC MSA is 101% of NY's population.  And NYC alone (no suburbs) is 42% of NY's population.

FWIW, Upstate NY on its own would be less populous than Michigan because it doesn't have any cities/metro areas the size of Detroit. It would be very similar to Wisconsin in population.

Also, even as a road/geography geek, I still sometimes get mixed up by the cities in Michigan beyond Detroit. I know Flint is north of Detroit, and I know Lansing is roughly in the middle of the state, but couldn't tell you anything beyond that. And which interstates go through which cities? Forget about it. At least in upstate NY you know I-90 hits or comes close to all the major cities (sorry, Binghamton) :sombrero:

Quote from: webny99 on February 22, 2023, 10:18:23 PM
FWIW, Upstate NY on its own would be less populous than Michigan because it doesn't have any cities/metro areas the size of Detroit. It would be very similar to Wisconsin in population.

Also, even as a road/geography geek, I still sometimes get mixed up by the cities in Michigan beyond Detroit. I know Flint is north of Detroit, and I know Lansing is roughly in the middle of the state, but couldn't tell you anything beyond that. And which interstates go through which cities? Forget about it. At least in upstate NY you know I-90 hits or comes close to all the major cities (sorry, Binghamton) :sombrero:

I know Michigan geography fairly well, and even I can't tell you exactly where Jackson and Battle Creek are. I do know where Saginaw and other Michigan cities generally are.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

The city's name ain't Kellogg, though.

Well, we are all agreed then.  Battle Creek should never be a control city.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 10:29:39 PM

Quote from: webny99 on February 22, 2023, 10:18:23 PM
FWIW, Upstate NY on its own would be less populous than Michigan because it doesn't have any cities/metro areas the size of Detroit. It would be very similar to Wisconsin in population.

Also, even as a road/geography geek, I still sometimes get mixed up by the cities in Michigan beyond Detroit. I know Flint is north of Detroit, and I know Lansing is roughly in the middle of the state, but couldn't tell you anything beyond that. And which interstates go through which cities? Forget about it. At least in upstate NY you know I-90 hits or comes close to all the major cities (sorry, Binghamton) :sombrero:

I know Michigan geography fairly well, and even I can't tell you exactly where Jackson and Battle Creek are. I do know where Saginaw and other Michigan cities generally are.

You know it fairly well but can't tell anyone where Jackson or Battle Creek are? I can right off the top of my head and I could go ask my friend who knows nothing about Michigan outside of Saginaw and ask him where Jackson and Battle Creek are and he'd be able to tell me too. They are both pretty well known cities in Michigan.

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:19:52 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

The city's name ain't Kellogg, though.

You learn this stuff in school. It doesn't have to be the city name, it's pretty well known that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek.

Quote from: webny99 on February 22, 2023, 10:18:23 PM
FWIW, Upstate NY on its own would be less populous than Michigan because it doesn't have any cities/metro areas the size of Detroit. It would be very similar to Wisconsin in population.

Also, even as a road/geography geek, I still sometimes get mixed up by the cities in Michigan beyond Detroit. I know Flint is north of Detroit, and I know Lansing is roughly in the middle of the state, but couldn't tell you anything beyond that. And which interstates go through which cities? Forget about it. At least in upstate NY you know I-90 hits or comes close to all the major cities (sorry, Binghamton) :sombrero:

It'd be easier for someone like me considering I'm from Michigan but I know where most of the Interstates go in most of the other states. Michigan really isn't hard to get around and get to know. I think off the top of my head I could tell you just about where any state highway, US highway or Interstate highway is and goes. But of course that's from traveling around the state my entire life.

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:20:59 PM
Well, we are all agreed then.  Battle Creek should never be a control city.

I wouldn't say that. If Battle Creek was a control city it wouldn't be that bad of a choice. And it is a control city in the state.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8791164,-85.0844337,3a,17.1y,118.86h,92.6t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sb4WQmS9TWVrpaae9JkQxJQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Db4WQmS9TWVrpaae9JkQxJQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D155.35089%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:20:59 PM
Well, we are all agreed then.  Battle Creek should never be a control city.

Problem isn't what shouldn't be, problem is what should be used. Is Albany and Buffalo ok, or it should be Boston and  Chicago anywhere between those two?

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 04:28:05 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:19:52 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

The city's name ain't Kellogg, though.

You learn this stuff in school. It doesn't have to be the city name, it's pretty well known that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek.

Michiganders, maybe.  No one else does.  Scratch Battle Creek off the BGSes.

Quote from: Rothman on February 23, 2023, 06:58:53 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 04:28:05 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:19:52 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

The city's name ain't Kellogg, though.

You learn this stuff in school. It doesn't have to be the city name, it's pretty well known that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek.

Michiganders, maybe.  No one else does.  Scratch Battle Creek off the BGSes.

It's known more than to just Michiganians.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 07:28:37 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 23, 2023, 06:58:53 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 04:28:05 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:19:52 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

The city's name ain't Kellogg, though.

You learn this stuff in school. It doesn't have to be the city name, it's pretty well known that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek.

Michiganders, maybe.  No one else does.  Scratch Battle Creek off the BGSes.

It's known more than to just Michiganians.

I.E. those who enjoy cereal.

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 23, 2023, 07:40:49 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 07:28:37 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 23, 2023, 06:58:53 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 04:28:05 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:19:52 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

The city's name ain't Kellogg, though.

You learn this stuff in school. It doesn't have to be the city name, it's pretty well known that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek.

Michiganders, maybe.  No one else does.  Scratch Battle Creek off the BGSes.

It's known more than to just Michiganians.

I.E. those who enjoy cereal.

Nothing better than some iron shavings in the morning!

Maybe Michigan takes pride in having the HQ of a major cereal brand, but I'm guessing the rest of the nation has an attitude more along the lines of "who cares?".  I know I certainly don't know where the companies that make many of the products I buy are headquartered.

I learned all about the Iroquois and Erie Canal in school, should I expect that knowledge to be nationwide?  Seems more relevant to the curriculum than "hey look, a small city in our state is the HQ of a major cereal company!".

I still don't think that Flint gets that probably 99.9% of Kellogg's customers know that the cereal is from Battle Creek. Maybe Michiganers know it, but a random person who buys cereal who lives in California won't. Heck, I didn't know that Kellogg's was from Battle Creek and I'm generally good at this kind of stuff.

Quote from: vdeane on February 23, 2023, 01:00:03 PM
Maybe Michigan takes pride in having the HQ of a major cereal brand, but I'm guessing the rest of the nation has an attitude more along the lines of "who cares?".  I know I certainly don't know where the companies that make many of the products I buy are headquartered.

I learned all about the Iroquois and Erie Canal in school, should I expect that knowledge to be nationwide?  Seems more relevant to the curriculum than "hey look, a small city in our state is the HQ of a major cereal company!".

Of course people do know about large local employers. Because
a friend or relative may work for one of those.  Of course there is some travel from and to those big businesses. Of course effect reduces beyond normal commute distance andmore so beyond business driving trip distance.
Until, of course, we are talking about Bentonville AR , which will be known in airports all over the place.

Quote from: kalvado on February 23, 2023, 01:11:59 PM

Quote from: vdeane on February 23, 2023, 01:00:03 PM
Maybe Michigan takes pride in having the HQ of a major cereal brand, but I'm guessing the rest of the nation has an attitude more along the lines of "who cares?".  I know I certainly don't know where the companies that make many of the products I buy are headquartered.

I learned all about the Iroquois and Erie Canal in school, should I expect that knowledge to be nationwide?  Seems more relevant to the curriculum than "hey look, a small city in our state is the HQ of a major cereal company!".

Of course people do know about large local employers. Because
a friend or relative may work for one of those.  Of course there is some travel from and to those big businesses. Of course effect reduces beyond normal commute distance andmore so beyond business driving trip distance.
Until, of course, we are talking about Bentonville AR , which will be known in airports all over the place.
[/quote Bentonville isn't signed on I-49 south in Missouri. In fact they skip the whole region and sign Fort Smith for some reason.

Perhaps you should read this and then tell me how important Kellogg's is to Battle Creek  https://www.woodtv.com/news/calhoun-county/big-city-bigger-company-battle-creeks-long-relationship-with-kelloggs/

Let's sign Battle Creek on I-94 east in Billings.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 02:53:46 PM
Perhaps you should read this and then tell me how important Kellogg's is to Battle Creek  https://www.woodtv.com/news/calhoun-county/big-city-bigger-company-battle-creeks-long-relationship-with-kelloggs/

Even without reading it, I am positive that huge corporate headquarters is a very big deal locally. On the similar note, we do have (had?) GE locations, like receiving and visitors office signed on 3DI exits.
Question is if that is a good reason to post locality as a control city to, generally, long haul travelers who may or may not associate corporate HQ location with general geographic awareness, or being able to find that location on a map with a quick glance.
Interestingly enough, Google shows Battle Creek when you search for  "Michigan". It equally shows Syracuse and Rochester, along with Buffalo and Albany for "new york state" search. Not Binhapton or Utica, but shows Ithaca. If I were to speculate about Google algorithms,  it may be places people search for - hence correlating with  general awareness. 

Quote from: kalvado on February 23, 2023, 04:00:01 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 02:53:46 PM
Perhaps you should read this and then tell me how important Kellogg's is to Battle Creek  https://www.woodtv.com/news/calhoun-county/big-city-bigger-company-battle-creeks-long-relationship-with-kelloggs/

Even without reading it, I am positive that huge corporate headquarters is a very big deal locally. On the similar note, we do have (had?) GE locations, like receiving and visitors office signed on 3DI exits.
Question is if that is a good reason to post locality as a control city to, generally, long haul travelers who may or may not associate corporate HQ location with general geographic awareness, or being able to find that location on a map with a quick glance.
Interestingly enough, Google shows Battle Creek when you search for  "Michigan". It equally shows Syracuse and Rochester, along with Buffalo and Albany for "new york state" search. Not Binhapton or Utica, but shows Ithaca. If I were to speculate about Google algorithms,  it may be places people search for - hence correlating with  general awareness.

I still think that most Americans aren't aware that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek. But we are going in circles now.

Quote from: kalvado on February 23, 2023, 04:00:01 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 02:53:46 PM
Perhaps you should read this and then tell me how important Kellogg's is to Battle Creek  https://www.woodtv.com/news/calhoun-county/big-city-bigger-company-battle-creeks-long-relationship-with-kelloggs/

Even without reading it, I am positive that huge corporate headquarters is a very big deal locally. On the similar note, we do have (had?) GE locations, like receiving and visitors office signed on 3DI exits.
Question is if that is a good reason to post locality as a control city to, generally, long haul travelers who may or may not associate corporate HQ location with general geographic awareness, or being able to find that location on a map with a quick glance.
Interestingly enough, Google shows Battle Creek when you search for  "Michigan". It equally shows Syracuse and Rochester, along with Buffalo and Albany for "new york state" search. Not Binhapton or Utica, but shows Ithaca. If I were to speculate about Google algorithms,  it may be places people search for - hence correlating with  general awareness.

My argument really isn't about it being a control city, it was mentioned that Battle Creek isn't well known. As far as it being a control city if I had to choose maybe I would use it but probably not considering truthfully I'd use Port Huron, Detroit and Chicago like it already is. The reason is that I-94 is the Detroit-Chicago expressway and a lot of long distance traffic on I-94 will be going to both cities. Sometimes cities become known because of highway junctions.

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 23, 2023, 07:40:49 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 07:28:37 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 23, 2023, 06:58:53 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 04:28:05 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:19:52 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 22, 2023, 06:29:13 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 06:26:29 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 22, 2023, 06:25:46 PM
College sports should have nothing to do with it. The city of Syracuse would be less well known by outsiders but just as important if the university there didn't share a name with the city.

Flint was bringing up cereal, I can bring up college sports. And having a major university does matter in terms of fame.

Well Kellogg's is a pretty well known brand. Probably more well known than Syracuse University.

The city's name ain't Kellogg, though.

You learn this stuff in school. It doesn't have to be the city name, it's pretty well known that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek.

Michiganders, maybe.  No one else does.  Scratch Battle Creek off the BGSes.

It's known more than to just Michiganians.

I.E. those who enjoy cereal.

...or those that read cereal boxes' fine print.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 23, 2023, 04:19:08 PM

Quote from: kalvado on February 23, 2023, 04:00:01 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 02:53:46 PM
Perhaps you should read this and then tell me how important Kellogg's is to Battle Creek  https://www.woodtv.com/news/calhoun-county/big-city-bigger-company-battle-creeks-long-relationship-with-kelloggs/

Even without reading it, I am positive that huge corporate headquarters is a very big deal locally. On the similar note, we do have (had?) GE locations, like receiving and visitors office signed on 3DI exits.
Question is if that is a good reason to post locality as a control city to, generally, long haul travelers who may or may not associate corporate HQ location with general geographic awareness, or being able to find that location on a map with a quick glance.
Interestingly enough, Google shows Battle Creek when you search for  "Michigan". It equally shows Syracuse and Rochester, along with Buffalo and Albany for "new york state" search. Not Binhapton or Utica, but shows Ithaca. If I were to speculate about Google algorithms,  it may be places people search for - hence correlating with  general awareness.

I still think that most Americans aren't aware that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek. But we are going in circles now.

I'm not going to try to guess what Americans think or know.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 05:20:00 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 23, 2023, 04:19:08 PM

Quote from: kalvado on February 23, 2023, 04:00:01 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 02:53:46 PM
Perhaps you should read this and then tell me how important Kellogg's is to Battle Creek  https://www.woodtv.com/news/calhoun-county/big-city-bigger-company-battle-creeks-long-relationship-with-kelloggs/

Even without reading it, I am positive that huge corporate headquarters is a very big deal locally. On the similar note, we do have (had?) GE locations, like receiving and visitors office signed on 3DI exits.
Question is if that is a good reason to post locality as a control city to, generally, long haul travelers who may or may not associate corporate HQ location with general geographic awareness, or being able to find that location on a map with a quick glance.
Interestingly enough, Google shows Battle Creek when you search for  "Michigan". It equally shows Syracuse and Rochester, along with Buffalo and Albany for "new york state" search. Not Binhapton or Utica, but shows Ithaca. If I were to speculate about Google algorithms,  it may be places people search for - hence correlating with  general awareness.

I still think that most Americans aren't aware that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek. But we are going in circles now.

I'm not going to try to guess what Americans think or know.

No need to guess.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 05:20:00 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 23, 2023, 04:19:08 PM

Quote from: kalvado on February 23, 2023, 04:00:01 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 02:53:46 PM
Perhaps you should read this and then tell me how important Kellogg's is to Battle Creek  https://www.woodtv.com/news/calhoun-county/big-city-bigger-company-battle-creeks-long-relationship-with-kelloggs/

Even without reading it, I am positive that huge corporate headquarters is a very big deal locally. On the similar note, we do have (had?) GE locations, like receiving and visitors office signed on 3DI exits.
Question is if that is a good reason to post locality as a control city to, generally, long haul travelers who may or may not associate corporate HQ location with general geographic awareness, or being able to find that location on a map with a quick glance.
Interestingly enough, Google shows Battle Creek when you search for  "Michigan". It equally shows Syracuse and Rochester, along with Buffalo and Albany for "new york state" search. Not Binhapton or Utica, but shows Ithaca. If I were to speculate about Google algorithms,  it may be places people search for - hence correlating with  general awareness.

I still think that most Americans aren't aware that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek. But we are going in circles now.

I'm not going to try to guess what Americans think or know.

Did you know that General Electric was founded in Schenectady?  If not, why would I know that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek?

Quote from: vdeane on February 23, 2023, 09:14:13 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 05:20:00 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 23, 2023, 04:19:08 PM

Quote from: kalvado on February 23, 2023, 04:00:01 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 02:53:46 PM
Perhaps you should read this and then tell me how important Kellogg's is to Battle Creek  https://www.woodtv.com/news/calhoun-county/big-city-bigger-company-battle-creeks-long-relationship-with-kelloggs/

Even without reading it, I am positive that huge corporate headquarters is a very big deal locally. On the similar note, we do have (had?) GE locations, like receiving and visitors office signed on 3DI exits.
Question is if that is a good reason to post locality as a control city to, generally, long haul travelers who may or may not associate corporate HQ location with general geographic awareness, or being able to find that location on a map with a quick glance.
Interestingly enough, Google shows Battle Creek when you search for  "Michigan". It equally shows Syracuse and Rochester, along with Buffalo and Albany for "new york state" search. Not Binhapton or Utica, but shows Ithaca. If I were to speculate about Google algorithms,  it may be places people search for - hence correlating with  general awareness.

I still think that most Americans aren't aware that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek. But we are going in circles now.

I'm not going to try to guess what Americans think or know.

Did you know that General Electric was founded in Schenectady?  If not, why would I know that Kellogg's is from Battle Creek?

^Bingo.  Local notoriety does not equal being famous country-wide.

I learned something new reading this. Otherwise, I never would've known of Battle Creek's importance.

Sorry, but not everyone knows that. It's not well known. Perhaps by someone who, you know, lives in the state?

Ok and we are talking Michigan control cities. A control city in Michigan doesn't have to be well known. Battle Creek has 50,000 people and a little more in outlying areas.

Quote from: Flint1979 on March 01, 2023, 03:31:06 PM
Ok and we are talking Michigan control cities. A control city in Michigan doesn't have to be well known. Battle Creek has 50,000 people and a little more in outlying areas.

Going back to the NYS Thruway, Utica is bigger than Battle Creek and is not used as a control city.

Quote from: Flint1979 on March 01, 2023, 03:31:06 PM
Ok and we are talking Michigan control cities. A control city in Michigan doesn't have to be well known. Battle Creek has 50,000 people and a little more in outlying areas.

It's a big question of what control cities should be.
I am not comfortable discussing that, though, knowing @Rothman is in the thread and wasn't a subject to TSA-style cavity search.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 01, 2023, 03:32:35 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on March 01, 2023, 03:31:06 PM
Ok and we are talking Michigan control cities. A control city in Michigan doesn't have to be well known. Battle Creek has 50,000 people and a little more in outlying areas.

Going back to the NYS Thruway, Utica is bigger than Battle Creek and is not used as a control city.

And Battle Creek is bigger than Limon!
:ded:

Quote from: kalvado on March 01, 2023, 03:34:26 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 01, 2023, 03:32:35 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on March 01, 2023, 03:31:06 PM
Ok and we are talking Michigan control cities. A control city in Michigan doesn't have to be well known. Battle Creek has 50,000 people and a little more in outlying areas.

Going back to the NYS Thruway, Utica is bigger than Battle Creek and is not used as a control city.

And Battle Creek is bigger than Limon!
:ded:

Limon is bigger than Thru Traffic or Other Desert Cities.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 01, 2023, 03:35:06 PM
Limon is bigger than Thru Traffic or Other Desert Cities.

Actually, I bet the population size of Limon is smaller than the population size of either one.

Quote from: kphoger on March 01, 2023, 03:36:00 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 01, 2023, 03:35:06 PM
Limon is bigger than Thru Traffic or Other Desert Cities.

Actually, I bet the population size of Limon is smaller than the population size of either one.

The city of Thru Traffic, Ohio does not exist so it has a population of 0. Neither does the city of Other Desert Cities, California.

Yeah, I get it.  Of course I get it.

Also, the city of Indiana, Illinois, does not exist.

Quote from: kphoger on March 01, 2023, 03:48:09 PM
Yeah, I get it.  Of course I get it.

Also, the city of Indiana, Illinois, does not exist.

I mean at least ODC does refer to a group of cities. Should be Phoenix but whatever. Thru Traffic does not.

Just for reference:

Quote from: J N Winkler on March 07, 2011, 03:27:43 PM
"THRU TRAFFIC" was recommended for pull-through signs in the initial edition of the AASHO Interstate signing manual--this is part of the reason there are so many instances of "THRU TRAFFIC" still persisting.  The present control-cities policy and the decision map that goes with it postdate Interstate signing itself, though I am not sure by how much.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 01, 2023, 03:38:16 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 01, 2023, 03:36:00 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 01, 2023, 03:35:06 PM
Limon is bigger than Thru Traffic or Other Desert Cities.

Actually, I bet the population size of Limon is smaller than the population size of either one.

The city of Thru Traffic, Ohio does not exist so it has a population of 0. Neither does the city of Other Desert Cities, California.

Excuse me, Thru Traffic is in New York. THRU TRAFFIC is the town in Ohio.

Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 04:35:12 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:20:59 PM
Well, we are all agreed then.  Battle Creek should never be a control city.

I wouldn't say that. If Battle Creek was a control city it wouldn't be that bad of a choice. And it is a control city in the state.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8791164,-85.0844337,3a,17.1y,118.86h,92.6t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sb4WQmS9TWVrpaae9JkQxJQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Db4WQmS9TWVrpaae9JkQxJQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D155.35089%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

In this case, M-66 is a surface state route.  The practice for control cities on those routes generally seem to be a lot more relaxed than those for long-distance freeways (that's a whole other topic for discussion).  For example, I think it would be ridiculous for the control cities on this sign to be Sturgis and Charlevoix (M-66's terminal points).

Quote from: kirbykart on March 02, 2023, 08:28:00 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 01, 2023, 03:38:16 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 01, 2023, 03:36:00 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 01, 2023, 03:35:06 PM
Limon is bigger than Thru Traffic or Other Desert Cities.

Actually, I bet the population size of Limon is smaller than the population size of either one.

The city of Thru Traffic, Ohio does not exist so it has a population of 0. Neither does the city of Other Desert Cities, California.

Excuse me, Thru Traffic is in New York. THRU TRAFFIC is the town in Ohio.

What about the California thru traffic?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 02, 2023, 10:08:54 AM
What about the California thru traffic?

It exceeds the population of Limon no matter what interstate you're on.

Mackinac Bridge has a population of 0 and MDOT uses it for a control city

Quote from: Flint1979 on March 02, 2023, 05:12:38 PM
Mackinac Bridge has a population of 0 and MDOT uses it for a control city

But maybe there is a MMM troll living under that bridge!

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 02, 2023, 10:08:54 AM

Quote from: kirbykart on March 02, 2023, 08:28:00 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 01, 2023, 03:38:16 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 01, 2023, 03:36:00 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 01, 2023, 03:35:06 PM
Limon is bigger than Thru Traffic or Other Desert Cities.

Actually, I bet the population size of Limon is smaller than the population size of either one.

The city of Thru Traffic, Ohio does not exist so it has a population of 0. Neither does the city of Other Desert Cities, California.

Excuse me, Thru Traffic is in New York. THRU TRAFFIC is the town in Ohio.

What about the California thru traffic?

It's a conspiracy theory.