Tesla Supercharger Stations

[7/8]

I stayed at the Parry Sound Inn in Parry Sound, ON last week and noticed they were just finishing up the installation of Tesla Supercharger Stations in the parking lots:




I decided to read the Tesla Canada website's section on Supercharger Stations, and it states:

Superchargers are free connectors that charge Model S and Model X in minutes instead of hours.

This brings up the question, can non-Tesla electric cars use these stations? And if they can, do they get the benefits of the fast charging speeds? I don't see this answer on the Tesla website, and the "Tesla Vehicle Charging Only" signs suggests that only Tesla cars can use the spaces. I also wonder if 8 charging stations is overkill for a town as small as Parry Sound (heck, I'm impressed they're even being built there in the first place!)

[NJRoadfan]

Only Tesla vehicles have the required supercharger outlet on it. I think the standard is now open, so other manufacturers could add supercharger ports to their electric cars. Right now there is a bit of a standards war going on with high power DC quick charger plugs, even non-Tesla cars have incompatible plugs on them at the moment.

[7/8]

Only Tesla vehicles have the required supercharger outlet on it. I think the standard is now open, so other manufacturers could add supercharger ports to their electric cars. Right now there is a bit of a standards war going on with high power DC quick charger plugs, even non-Tesla cars have incompatible plugs on them at the moment.

Can Teslas use other electric car charging stations? Because if that's the case, this would seem to give Tesla a bit of an edge in the electric car market in that regard.

[SignGeek101]

I think there needs to be some sort of common system for charging stations across North America. Imagine if each brand of car today had a different way fueling gas, and each brand had to build their own gas stations (that are incompatible with other brands) to fuel their vehicles. If you drove a Toyota for instance, it would be difficult to find the gas station you need, because the ones you see are all for different brands or types of cars (you would have to drive to a "Toyota gas station" or something).

The current way of doing things will not work. Since Tesla seems to be quite aggressive getting their tech out there, I think eventually more electric cars will copy and be compatible with Tesla's chargers.

[1995hoo]

I strongly suspect there's some kind of authentication chip or other system in both the vehicle and the Supercharger station. The reason is because Tesla announced the upcoming Model 3 will NOT be eligible to use the Supercharger stations at no cost unless the buyer pays more for a specific option allowing that when buying the car. I highly doubt they'll be installing a different type of connector in different Model 3 vehicles, which is why I figure they probably use some kind of authentication process. EVs from other manufacturers would obviously fail the authentication test. (Whether someone could hack the cars' systems to overcome this is a totally separate question, of course.)

[vdeane]

I guess it's "Tesla (certain models) free, everyone else pays" then, which would open up the door to taxing their usage, allowing electric cars to contribute to road funding.

[formulanone]

The charging port on many of electric vehicles are similarly-designed, so that a Nissan Leaf can use the same recharging station as a Chevy Spark EV. Parking lots, garages, and dealerships offer this as a freebie.

Eight seems a bit like overkill at this point - but I guess they have to start somewhere.

[Duke87]

I strongly suspect there's some kind of authentication chip or other system in both the vehicle and the Supercharger station. The reason is because Tesla announced the upcoming Model 3 will NOT be eligible to use the Supercharger stations at no cost unless the buyer pays more for a specific option allowing that when buying the car.

Right, well, Tesla is paying both for installation of the chargers and for the electricity dispensed through them. If you own a Tesla it's "free" at point of use, but in effect you paid for it when you bought the car. Using this business model now allows Tesla to deploy these things in order to to make going on longer trips in one of their vehicles feasible when it otherwise would not be. The fact that Tesla's next car won't have automatic access, however, does suggest that they plan to move away from this business model. Which makes sense considering it is a business model that only really makes sense in a nascent market.

The question is, what will be the prevalent business model going forward? This is the sort of thing that there will definitely be some pressure to standardize. Electrical outlets are standardized, after all. And once the patent on any particular plug design expires anyone will be free to make adapters for it.

Smartphone manufacturers have resisted standardization but that is a very different industry with a much faster product cycle. Smartphones reach the point of planned obsolescence after only a couple years, cars are generally designed to last over a decade if taken care of.

That said, it is quite possible that the plug standards may not hold across international boundaries. May be the case in the future that you need to get an adapter for your car before driving to Mexico or you won't be able to charge it south of the border, etc.


Meanwhile the continued existence of proprietary charging ports not available for everyone's use is certainly plausible. This, after all, already exists with gasoline (c.f. Pacific Pride).

[1995hoo]

The charging port on many of electric vehicles are similarly-designed, so that a Nissan Leaf can use the same recharging station as a Chevy Spark EV. Parking lots, garages, and dealerships offer this as a freebie.

Eight seems a bit like overkill at this point - but I guess they have to start somewhere.

The parking garage where I park when I drive to work has an area designated for EVs because they have chargers there. I've seen several different vehicle makes parked there, including a Tesla, a Nissan Leaf, and a Chevy Volt (the latter technically not a true EV, but for purposes of this issue it may as well count). I hadn't thought of this when I made my prior comment, but it does underscore that there's probably some kind of standard.

Duke87's point about how the price of a Tesla, other than the Model 3, has some amount baked in to pay for the Superchargers is surely accurate, and it's certainly a reason why I have no problem with their restricting access to them.

We stopped into the Tesla showroom at Tysons a few months ago. Nice vehicles, but even with the Supercharger network they don't strike me as viable for long trips because I'd find it very frustrating to have to stop for half an hour to an hour every 250 miles or so. If there were a way to build one that can go 400 miles on a charge and then recharge fully in half an hour, that'd be a different story. (My current primary car usually gets me between 400 and 450 miles on a tank in all-Interstate driving, so when it runs low I'll usually stop for both gas and lunch. Then the next time it's low I stop for the night.)

[lordsutch]

Can Teslas use other electric car charging stations? Because if that's the case, this would seem to give Tesla a bit of an edge in the electric car market in that regard.

Tesla offers an adapter for the Model S and X for the ChaDeMO DC fast-charging standard (popular with the Japanese car makers) and is expected to offer one for the Combined Charging Standard (the European/American car makers' standard) as it rolls out. My understanding is electrically the two standards are similar, they just use different plugs.

Since at this point Nissan is the only other company producing large numbers of cars (Leafs) with DC fast charging available in the North American market there hasn't been much of a market for "Supercharging" except for Tesla customers. With the Chevy Bolt and other long-range battery-only cars coming in the next few years Tesla may either work with automakers or directly market its own adapters to car buyers that have their authentication chip for pay-per-use charging.

[Scott5114]

Smartphone manufacturers have resisted standardization but that is a very different industry with a much faster product cycle. Smartphones reach the point of planned obsolescence after only a couple years, cars are generally designed to last over a decade if taken care of.

Apple has resisted standardization. Android phones, regardless of manufacturer, use a standard USB connector for their charging port.

[kalvado]

Smartphone manufacturers have resisted standardization but that is a very different industry with a much faster product cycle. Smartphones reach the point of planned obsolescence after only a couple years, cars are generally designed to last over a decade if taken care of.

Apple has resisted standardization. Android phones, regardless of manufacturer, use a standard USB connector for their charging port.

EU had to put some thumbscrews on manufacturers to make that work. I am not sure it things would converge to same state otherwise.

[formulanone]

Smartphone manufacturers have resisted standardization but that is a very different industry with a much faster product cycle. Smartphones reach the point of planned obsolescence after only a couple years, cars are generally designed to last over a decade if taken care of.

Apple has resisted standardization. Android phones, regardless of manufacturer, use a standard USB connector for their charging port.

Motorola alternated between their own bespoke cables and USB Mini-B for ages, but HTC used the micro-B (and its weaknesses) for several years. Samsung has stopped using the 2.0 micro-B port in the past few years for the 3.0 jobber...it looks like this now:



So they've changed, in a way. No different a time frame than Apple switching from 30-pin to 8-pin connectors.

[kalvado]

Smartphone manufacturers have resisted standardization but that is a very different industry with a much faster product cycle. Smartphones reach the point of planned obsolescence after only a couple years, cars are generally designed to last over a decade if taken care of.

Apple has resisted standardization. Android phones, regardless of manufacturer, use a standard USB connector for their charging port.

Motorola alternated between their own bespoke cables and USB Mini-B for ages, but HTC used the micro-B (and its weaknesses) for several years. Samsung has stopped using the 2.0 micro-B port in the past few years for the 3.0 jobber...

So they've changed, in a way. No different a time frame than Apple switching from 30-pin to 8-pin connectors.

Well, samsung's 3.0 is perfectly compatible with 2.0 cables (3.0 cable does not fit 2.0 port, though).
Actual incompatibility would occur with USB-C introduction...

Still, adapters are available. I wonder if we'll see a box of adapters next to a spare in trunk of future all-eelctrics

[lordsutch]

Almost nobody used the USB 3.0 micro B connector on their smartphones - even Samsung switched back to the 2.0 connector for the Galaxy S7. It was mostly used on external hard drives in my experience; same deal with the 3.0 standard-size B. Besides which it is backwards-compatible with 2.0 cables (hence the funky design).

The last year has seen everyone (even, finally, Samsung's spontaneously-exploding Note 7) move to USB C which should mostly end the connector issues once everyone migrates. Even now all most people should need are A-to-C cables - the micro-B to C adapters are generally not worth the extra hassle and easily lost.

[SteveG1988]

The Tesla Roadster is the forgotten child of the Tesla Family. It requires adapters to use current chargers, cannot use the supercharger. Doesn't use the same system as the current models.

A guy in Vermont makes them for drivers of Tesla Roadsters

[SP Cook]

I stayed at the Parry Sound Inn in Parry Sound, ON last week and noticed they were just finishing up the installation of Tesla Supercharger Stations in the parking lots

Considering the worldwide production of this ultra-luxury car ($70K to $125K) brand is either "about 150,000" according to the company or 84,565 according to audited production figures, I think a middle class motel in the not that populated part of Ontario is good with 8 chargers. 

Gas Buddy only lists 25 gas stations there.

[kalvado]

I stayed at the Parry Sound Inn in Parry Sound, ON last week and noticed they were just finishing up the installation of Tesla Supercharger Stations in the parking lots

Considering the worldwide production of this ultra-luxury car ($70K to $125K) brand is either "about 150,000" according to the company or 84,565 according to audited production figures, I think a middle class motel in the not that populated part of Ontario is good with 8 chargers. 

Gas Buddy only lists 25 gas stations there.

Without looking at the map... Could it be that this parcel is a relatively underused land at/nearby motel property with high power cable available nearby to power these chargers, and highway is close enough for people to get off for a quick charge? And motel service desk can also act as a station attendant desk...

[lordsutch]

Without looking at the map... Could it be that this parcel is a relatively underused land at/nearby motel property with high power cable available nearby to power these chargers, and highway is close enough for people to get off for a quick charge? And motel service desk can also act as a station attendant desk...

Obviously the land is cheap and the marginal cost of putting in 2-8 superchargers when you're running the power for one already is pretty low. The "expensive" part is getting the HVAC power to the site - you're talking about the sort of heavy-duty power line you'd run to a shopping mall or a factory - and converting it to HVDC.

I've never seen an attended electric charging station, and I doubt I ever will. For non-Teslas you usually scan a card or use an app (which often unlocks the plug) and then plug in. When you're done, you scan again and unplug. No human involved. If the charger breaks down they send out a repair crew. Tesla skips the card because the Supercharger connection has built-in DRM, so even if you physically connected it to something that could draw 100 amps HVDC without exploding it wouldn't work without the right encryption keys.

If battery swaps ever happen those might be attended but it's looking like DC fast charging is good enough for most everyone on long trips even if it does make the batteries wear out sooner.

[kalvado]

Without looking at the map... Could it be that this parcel is a relatively underused land at/nearby motel property with high power cable available nearby to power these chargers, and highway is close enough for people to get off for a quick charge? And motel service desk can also act as a station attendant desk...

I've never seen an attended electric charging station, and I doubt I ever will. For non-Teslas you usually scan a card or use an app (which often unlocks the plug) and then plug in. When you're done, you scan again and unplug. No human involved. If the charger breaks down they send out a repair crew. Tesla skips the card because the Supercharger connection has built-in DRM, so even if you physically connected it to something that could draw 100 amps HVDC without exploding it wouldn't work without the right encryption keys.

Well, there is always a possibility for some issues which may require attention.
Maybe we're not using the word "attendant" the say way. I don't mean someone running around and pulling cables, I am more talking about someone just being available nearby to resolve small problems.
If you will, gas station folks also spend more time selling coffee and lottery tickets than actually working those pumps.