New Jersey

[roadman65]

Being that the state applied to AASHTO for the Eastern Spur of the NJT to be an x95, why didn't they also apply to have US 9 across Great Egg Harbor to be removed from what was once the Beesly Point Bridge or see if they"ll accept both the Hillsborough and Mullica Hill bypasses into the US Route system for both US 206 and 322?

[Alps]

Being that the state applied to AASHTO for the Eastern Spur of the NJT to be an x95, why didn't they also apply to have US 9 across Great Egg Harbor to be removed from what was once the Beesly Point Bridge or see if they"ll accept both the Hillsborough and Mullica Hill bypasses into the US Route system for both US 206 and 322?

US 9: I believe this is the plan and that US 9 south of the bridge is going to the County. It may have already been approved, I don't know the status, but it would require the state take over the connector east from US 9 to the Parkway. And I'm not sure such a minor change needs AASHTO approval.
Hillsborough bypass will someday be US 206, but right now they want to keep US 206 on the old route while they finish upgrading it to eventually be turned over to the town. At that time they'll make the switch official.
Mullica Hill is County maintained (as is the existing 322), so it's really up to the County to put that application in if it's not official. From what I've seen though, it's as official as it needs to be from County signing.

[roadman65]

Another thing to note about some of the bridges that need replacing, but on hold due to priority needs as NJ has been far behind in bridge replacing. Look at how long it took the Elizabeth River Viaduct to be replaced on US 1 & 9 in Elizabeth. It was needing replacing in 1985, but the Star Ledger reported it was in queue as several other bridges were more in need of replacing at the time.  However from GSV I noticed the US 46 bridge across NJ 17 is in need of replacing.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/WxAMffp2zL5rsohw8

https://maps.app.goo.gl/92ytCwuqaEuJcBFu7

The US 46 bridge in Hasbrouck Heights is currently with a safety net underneath to collect the falling concrete from the deteriorating structure from falling onto motorists on Route 17 below. A fixated Jersey barrier is a make do railing as the original concrete 1930s era railing had to be removed a few years ago as it was a safety hazard. I'm sure the structural integrity is okay that it's still open, but nonetheless it's old and obsolete for use.

To me I not only think that structure needs replacing, but the whole interchange needs to be redone moving NJ 17 into the wide median while moving the classic Bendix Diner across the highway.  This would address the missing moves there that have to use nearby Summit Avenue to facilitate those particular moves. Plus add a c/d roadway on US 46 between NJ 17 and Green Street to avoid weaving between the ramps over the NJ Transit Passack Valley Line.


Down to South Jersey on another subject, I noticed that NJDOT has a NJ 45 mile post along US 130 in Westville. 
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PqHUXZfqmSDCDmwVA
I'm assuming it's to match the opposing side as directly across US 130's wide median here, but nonetheless it's past the merge point of NJ 45 North onto US 130.

Then US 130 at its split with NJ 45 SB gets no guides or shields but another milepost in the apex of the split.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/fNYg5m5sz9Tz49xV6


This is very bad as NJDOT did a statewide guide and shield replacement in the late 90'svto ensure that the highway junctions were clearly marked.

[akotchi]

On arterial roads, NJDOT installs enhanced mile markers every half-mile on the half-mile.  Route 45 mileage, I guess, was close enough to a half-mile that NJDOT decided, in their judgment, to post the additional Route 45 mile markers.

At the south end of Route 55, M.P. 20 markers are on Route 47 right at the split.

Stuff like that happens.  Gives us roadgeeks something to talk about . . .

[jeffandnicole]

Down to South Jersey on another subject, I noticed that NJDOT has a NJ 45 mile post along US 130 in Westville. 
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PqHUXZfqmSDCDmwVA
I'm assuming it's to match the opposing side as directly across US 130's wide median here, but nonetheless it's past the merge point of NJ 45 North onto US 130.

Then US 130 at its split with NJ 45 SB gets no guides or shields but another milepost in the apex of the split.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/fNYg5m5sz9Tz49xV6

This is very bad as NJDOT did a statewide guide and shield replacement in the late 90'svto ensure that the highway junctions were clearly marked.

Per NJDOT traffic regulations, the northern limit of Rt. 45 is MP 28.51 (which would contain a slight overlap with US 130). You can find examples of milepost overlaps like this throughout the state. NJ 42 & 55, and NJ 73 & 90 have similar milepost signage that looks out of place.

The signage was there, as shown in this 2013 GSV:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/fHkiQfSWWg5FBVof9 .  Over the years I imagine wayward vehicles have knocked the signage down and it was never replaced. In my experiences NJDOT isn't very good at replacing some signage, unless its a Stop sign which receives top priority. On 130 itself, a 50 mph sign went missing many years ago. I used NJDOTs pothole repair/maintenance request form to inform then of the missing sign. 2 hours later, they marked the job as completed. It wasn't.

[Alps]

for those in the room: 17 @ 46 is actively in design and will be reconstructed relatively soon.

[roadman65]

Hopefully they'll reconfigure the existing ramps there as that WB to SB was always dangerous coming in from the left with no proper merge area ( unless there is one now) and those left exits to go EB from either direction of Route 17. 

[cockroachking]

Then US 130 at its split with NJ 45 SB gets no guides or shields but another milepost in the apex of the split.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/fNYg5m5sz9Tz49xV6

This is very bad as NJDOT did a statewide guide and shield replacement in the late 90'svto ensure that the highway junctions were clearly marked.

The signage was there, as shown in this 2013 GSV:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/fHkiQfSWWg5FBVof9 .  Over the years I imagine wayward vehicles have knocked the signage down and it was never replaced. In my experiences NJDOT isn't very good at replacing some signage, unless its a Stop sign which receives top priority. On 130 itself, a 50 mph sign went missing many years ago. I used NJDOTs pothole repair/maintenance request form to inform then of the missing sign. 2 hours later, they marked the job as completed. It wasn't.

I found this out the hard way when I was clinching US-130 SB back in November.

I wonder if there is another/better way to contact NJDOT besides the pothole form...

[roadman65]

Yes a better way to contact would be nice, as NJ does have a lot of missing signs that I'm sure they would replace if they were aware of the situations.

One thing they do great at is like they done in 1998. When they added the overhead street blades they also did sign intersections that had two routes coming to a junction.


I did like that 1998 campaign that brought us these.  The route directions and control destinations in one guide.  Sort of like a Jersey trademark.

[74/171FAN]

^Someone I know just photographed this sign this past Saturday.  (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10219946657897314&set=a.10219946769140095)  (yes, I meant me.)

[Mr. Matté]

I wonder if there is another/better way to contact NJDOT besides the pothole form...

I contacted a state legislator of mine when a broken guide rail along Route 64 (yes the short route) hadn't been fixed for the longest time even after a couple reports to the pothole website and it was repaired shortly thereafter. Not sure how it could work with you since you're not a state resident (per your location on your display). Maybe if you list an address within the district of the problem sign (e.g. the 3rd for this Westville 130/45 sign) you can use the state website to contact them.

[jeffandnicole]

Then US 130 at its split with NJ 45 SB gets no guides or shields but another milepost in the apex of the split.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/fNYg5m5sz9Tz49xV6

This is very bad as NJDOT did a statewide guide and shield replacement in the late 90'svto ensure that the highway junctions were clearly marked.

The signage was there, as shown in this 2013 GSV:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/fHkiQfSWWg5FBVof9 .  Over the years I imagine wayward vehicles have knocked the signage down and it was never replaced. In my experiences NJDOT isn't very good at replacing some signage, unless its a Stop sign which receives top priority. On 130 itself, a 50 mph sign went missing many years ago. I used NJDOTs pothole repair/maintenance request form to inform then of the missing sign. 2 hours later, they marked the job as completed. It wasn't.

I found this out the hard way when I was clinching US-130 SB back in November.

I wonder if there is another/better way to contact NJDOT besides the pothole form...

I find this can go in waves, and it may depend on the administration.  In the past it was a lot easier to request repairs or to fix missing or wrong signage.  The current administration isn't very 'customer oriented'.  The Traffic Light repair option went missing from the dropdown list for the southern region a few years ago.  And I've seen in the yard I worked at signage that should have been installed.  When I went back a year later, that signage was still there.

[74/171FAN]

On CR 561 ALT WB at CR 674 in Egg Harbor City.  I wonder if there is any other county route signage in NJ like this. (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10218301206042046&set=a.10218301431447681)

[tmoore952]

Don't remember specifics (it's been too many years) but I believe I remember seeing signs like this near Mauricetown in Cumberland County. We used to drive on CR 670 between Bridgeton and Mauricetown when driving from Delaware to the far southern NJ ocean beaches.

CR 670 was (and I assume still is) a nice bypass of Millville and gets you from NJ 49 to NJ 47.

[Bobby5280]

This doesn't have anything to do with the traffic sign. But just what in the living hell is going on with that business street sign on the right end of the picture? I design commercial signs for a living. But I simply cannot recall ever seeing a business tenant sign that had listings divided up into four freaking columns. Two columns? That can be common. Three is a rarity. Never saw four until now. Holy shit. Those are little, completely ineffective, postage stamp sized "signs" all in a huge patchwork quilt of pure visual static. Totally laughable.

[Mr. Matté]

This doesn't have anything to do with the traffic sign. But just what in the living hell is going on with that business street sign on the right end of the picture? I design commercial signs for a living. But I simply cannot recall ever seeing a business tenant sign that had listings divided up into four freaking columns. Two columns? That can be common. Three is a rarity. Never saw four until now. Holy shit. Those are little, completely ineffective, postage stamp sized "signs" all in a huge patchwork quilt of pure visual static. Totally laughable.

Might be the town's ordinances placing a maximum area on the individual business's sign. Here's Hazlet Township's code with sign size highlighted. Looks like the other shopping centers in Hazlet have similarly small signs for the non anchors.

[storm2k]

Yes a better way to contact would be nice, as NJ does have a lot of missing signs that I'm sure they would replace if they were aware of the situations.

One thing they do great at is like they done in 1998. When they added the overhead street blades they also did sign intersections that had two routes coming to a junction.


I did like that 1998 campaign that brought us these.  The route directions and control destinations in one guide.  Sort of like a Jersey trademark.

IIRC, this style of sign long predates 1998. They may have added/replaced a lot of these in that timeframe, but the design is much older than that. These vintage of signs need to be replaced. Most of them are peeling badly, and to me the size of the legend text and arrows were a bit too small for the size of the roads they are on. It was an early era of fully retroflective signage sheeting and the stuff did not last the way it was likely supposed to. It was like how they introduced the traffic signal street name blades around 1994 and within 4-5 years most of them were so badly faded that they were useless (happened a lot on 22 in Somerset and Union counties, that was a corridor that got them early on).

[Bobby5280]

Street signs with multi-listing tenant cabinets are becoming more and more of a relic. Some retail centers are replacing those cluttered looking tenant cabinets with LED-based electronic variable message displays. Or they just get rid of the street sign entirely and make the tenants rely only on signs mounted to store fronts.

The biggest problem with these multi-listing street signs is they quickly end up looking like shit. That is due to the shopping center not maintaining control of who touches the sign. They'll let just anybody work on it. Different tenants hire different sign companies to make their faces. Some sign companies do a great job. Most others are very shitty at it and simply do not care. They have no standards at all on who they hire as a "graphic designer." If the person has a pulse, shows up regularly to work and is willing to work for burger-flipper wages that is good enough. They couldn't give a rat's ass about talent or technical proficiency. They just need a body to crank out junky looking graphics.

Eventually a community gets tired of seeing the shit that gets produced and enacts a Draconian anti-signs code. Whole categories of signs get banned in an attempt at city beautification.

As you can probably tell, I have a pretty serious hatred for a bunch of other people in my industry.

Might be the town's ordinances placing a maximum area on the individual business's sign. Here's Hazlet Township's code with sign size highlighted. Looks like the other shopping centers in Hazlet have similarly small signs for the non anchors.

Square footage limits on signs typically apply to the entire sign structure, not individual tenant panels on a multi-listing street sign.

Local city councils have to be very careful how they draft sign ordinances. If they wander into areas such as trying to dictate color schemes or other content on the sign the city can get sued on free speech grounds.

Cities can pass height limits and square footage limits for signs. They can even ban entire categories of signs, which does seem more and more common in a lot of upper middle class and upper income locations. Huge free-standing signs are a rarity in newly built suburbs and upper income enclaves. Businesses are often limited to only building-mounted signs of particular types (such as lighted channel letters instead box cabinet signs). If they can install a street sign the city will try hard to limit it to a low profile monument not much bigger than a friggin' tombstone.

[roadman65]

I never thought of those shopping center signs as being unreadable as much. Not saying it's a bad point to discuss, but now that it's brought up, I now see the illogical thinking of creating the clusterfuck.


Airport airline listing upon airport road guides isn't any better either.

[Bobby5280]

Shopping center signs street signs that have a dozen or more tenant listings can end up being very ineffective. A passing motorist can glance at only so many pieces of information in an instant. If a sign has too many elements the whole thing gets drowned in visually noisy static. It becomes something that is actually very easy to ignore.

The problem is further complicated by individual tenants. A bunch of these people have never paid attention to signs before, much less have any idea of the factors that make a good sign effective. So they want their tenant sign face to be a phonebook ad. Include the logo, phone number, address, bullet points of services offered, etc. It doesn't occur to them the letter sizes might be tiny in order to fit all that crap into a certain geometric space. It also doesn't occur to them letters have to be at least so many inches tall in order for a motorist to be able to read a message at a desirable viewing distance. This factor varies greatly by typeface choice.

Various charts are available showing legibility distances for a standard sans serif, medium weight typeface. Sign customers rarely ever see these charts and I suspect many sign designers don't look at them either. I'll use big green highway signs as one reference for my work.

[jeffandnicole]

The problem is further complicated by individual tenants. A bunch of these people have never paid attention to signs before, much less have any idea of the factors that make a good sign effective. So they want their tenant sign face to be phonebook ad. Include the logo, phone number, address, bullet points of services offered, etc. It doesn't occur to them the letter sizes might be tiny in order to fit all that crap into a certain geometric space. It also doesn't occur to them letters have to be at least so many inches tall in order for a motorist to be able to read it at a desirable viewing distance. This factor varies greatly by typeface choice.

I say the same thing about yard sale signs.  People use a piece of paper, use a pen or small marker to write too much stuff on the sign, hang it up, look at it from about 3 feet away, and think it's good.  They never try passing their sign in a car at normal speeds on the roadway, where they would probably realize that the sign is unreadable and isn't going to draw any attention to the sale.  Especially a few hours later when the sign probably curves inward, making it especially unreadable.

[Bobby5280]

The funny thing is there are many rules and guidelines with how traffic signs are supposed to be designed. For instance, you'll only see so many elements on an overhead big green sign. If the panel has to display more than 6 or 7 pieces of information (route markers, street names, cities, etc) then the additional information will have to spill over onto another sign structure in the distance. And these are signs which are installed in the highway's right of way. Signs for commercial businesses have to be installed within the business' property line on the other side of the utility easement. Those kind of distance set-backs can make legibility requirements a lot more demanding.

Yard signs are typically only good for installing next to neighborhood streets where the speed limit is no more than 25mph. The kind of yard signs I'm talking about is the aluminum panels (either 24" X 18" or 36" X 24") installed in a steel frame. Pieces of paper or cardboard stapled to a wood telephone pole don't do so well. In many cities it's illegal to even post such things. Quite a few cities even require people to get a permit if they want to install a good yard sign in a yard.

[ctnaes]

Does anyone know the furthest north I can see a directional sign for the Atlantic City Expressway?

[jeffandnicole]

Does anyone know the furthest north I can see a directional sign for the Atlantic City Expressway?

Rt. 42 North at the Expressway.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qFESZd8ef4Rr2RTSA

[ctnaes]

Does anyone know the furthest north I can see a directional sign for the Atlantic City Expressway?

Rt. 42 North at the Expressway.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qFESZd8ef4Rr2RTSA

There is one further north on Route 206 in Southampton Township. I was curious if this was the furthest north it is seen.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/HxmNQuaVvV3BJDrS7?g_st=ic