Annoying driver behavior NOT caused by incompetence

[sprjus4]

The Absolute Worst, is on two lane roads when I go to pass someone and they speed up. WHY? 

You have left me with two terrible options: (1) Speed up beyond what is safe/reasonable to get past, or (2) Get back behind you, only to inevitably slow down to your preferred speed (which is obviously slower than mine, or I wouldn't have tried to pass you in the first place!).
I have concluded that only true control-freaks would engage in this behavior.

Got caught behind someone doing ~65 mph in a 75 mph zone on a two-laner in Texas once, stuck behind them for miles before I got an opportunity, and when I finally went for it, they sped up to the speed limit (I was in the opposing lane doing the pass at around 77 mph and they were side by side now) and at that point I was done dealing with them and just punched it till I got beyond them, hitting ~90 mph. Sure enough, as soon as I got back over and slowed down to ~77 mph, they were now way behind me crawling back at their previous speed.

Interestingly enough, they attempted to pull over on the shoulder two times to let me pass, though did not fully get into the shoulder lane which means if I went for it, I'd have to slightly use the opposing lane, and both times there was a large semi coming. I've never been hit by a semi head on doing 70 mph, though I don't imagine it'd be fun.

Sometimes drivers can be quite idiots.

[jakeroot]

Those are reasons that you alone are worried about. For the rest of us...

First and foremost, don't try to dismiss my argument like that, that's foolish bullshit. If I said I was worried about clowns attacking me from a dirigible, then you can safely say that I alone have a worry.

Fine, I'll give you that. You are far from the only person I've seen to not pull out. But the vast majority of people that I've talked to, who don't pull forward (usually because I was in the backseat observing their driving, and then asked them), it's usually because they think it would be running a red light if they couldn't turn in a gap, not because of everything else you've listed...

I've been hit by a red-light runner before. That's long stopped me from treating most intersections like a drag race.

My eyes almost rolled out of my head.

You've had one accident, and now every intersection is something incredibly dangerous and needs to be approached with an insane amount of caution. Am I wrong?

Actually, don't respond to that. I know what you'll say: I'm not giving it enough thought, and that I'm the foolish one.

Here's my response: it's a god-damn left turn. We're not trying to launch a fucking space shuttle. If any of those bizarre situations come up (U-turn conflict, emergency vehicles, etc) then you can deal with that when it comes to it. But otherwise, it's really quite a simple thing. Always be observant, of course. I'm not saying you should throw all care to the wind. That would be foolish. But to, perhaps, imply that the only truly safe option is to wait behind the line, is so far off from the truth. I've somehow gone the past eight years without a single crash related to this maneuver, and neither have any of my family members (many of whom are much older than you); this is hardly concrete evidence, but I'm fairly certain that your reasons for not pulling forward are no less anecdotal.

Honestly, the most common incident I see related to this maneuver, is a car finishing their turn on yellow/red but an oncoming car blows the red. If the driver of the turning vehicle was paying attention, they would have spotted this speeding car. Not saying they asked for it, but they weren't being observant.

A) there is no blocking in jurisdictions that use all-red clearance phases (maybe yours doesn't);

I don't understand what you mean by this? Do you mean a moment when nobody has a green phase? I have seen very few intersections with a few seconds of all-red, so as to assume that no crossroads have it. (Although, I do know of a few with extended yellow phases.)

All-red clearance phases are most common in states with permissive yellow laws. They allow two things: drivers who just entered the intersection (right before the red light came up) to finish their movement, and to allow traffic waiting to turn left to finish their turn without blocking the traffic on the side-street. Usually, the phase lasts one or two seconds. Are you saying that most lights in your area have no time between the conclusion of the yellow phase for street A, and the green phase for street B?

B) what would the ticket be for? It's not illegal in most areas;

I've seen cops chase down intersection-blockers/runners on three separate occasions. All were in Florida. Now there could have been APBs for a precise vehicle match, but that's an amazing coincidence on the verge of "unbelievable".

Those drivers would be receiving tickets for something that is standard practice in much of the country, and is not considered red-light-running or intersection-blocking. Around here, it's not "running a red light" unless you cross the stop line on red. Being in the intersection has nothing to do with the state of the signal, unless it turns red and you don't clear the intersection; that would be blocking.

C) It's dangerous? Surely you have evidence. Generally, "not dangerous until proven otherwise" is the standard.

Any signalized intersection has the chance to be dangerous. Do you really doubt that no accident could ever be caused by a misunderstanding in an intersection?

Certainly possible. But as I mentioned earlier, a far larger number of crashes seem to occur because driver A fails to observe something: a red light, a pedestrian, another car, a signal pole, etc. Often times because they are drunk, using their phone, or even speeding. But a misunderstanding? Like failing to recognize when someone else has the right-of-way? Probably some crashes, but probably not a majority.

In any scenario, neither of us has any more than anecdotal evidence on our side. Which is why I stand by my statement that pulling forward should be considered a safe movement unless there's evidence to the contrary. I have seen crashes related to left turns with permissive phasing, but they don't have anything to do with pulling forward or otherwise.

For the record, I have seen at least one crash (extremely minor) where a driver waiting behind the stop line started to go because they saw a gap opening, but then slammed on the brakes when the yellow light came up (even though it's not illegal to enter on yellow around here, even from a stop). The car behind them bumped into them, thinking they would continue with their turn (we don't use many left-side signals around here, so the car behind the front car could not see the signal). If the front car pulled into the intersection, there would be no need to slam on the brakes to avoid entering a yellow or red light, and thereby causing a crash.

Other drivers who think that they can "draft" behind you and make the intersection, dangerously flaunting the "being in the intersection" rule.

Sorry, what? What's the "being in the intersection" rule?

It's standard procedure here for cars to pull out behind the front car. Having two or three cars waiting beyond the stop line is not unusual nor illegal. A 2-second all-red phase generally keeps the second or third car from giving the appearance of "blocking", should no gap develop. But if that last car took to long to turn, I've heard that police could issue a ticket for blocking. But I've never seen or heard of this actually happening, and I bet it would be an easy ticket to fight.

[formulanone]

Jake, if you see a rental car in the Seattle area, shake your fist at it...it might be me.

End of discussion on my part, I'll continue to do what is safest in my mind and legal in the eyes of the law, while the rest can waste time complaining about it on the internet.

[sprjus4]

Those are reasons that you alone are worried about. For the rest of us...

First and foremost, don't try to dismiss my argument like that, that's foolish bullshit. If I said I was worried about clowns attacking me from a dirigible, then you can safely say that I alone have a worry.

Fine, I'll give you that. You are far from the only person I've seen to not pull out. But the vast majority of people that I've talked to, who don't pull forward (usually because I was in the backseat observing their driving, and then asked them), it's usually because they think it would be running a red light if they couldn't turn in a gap, not because of everything else you've listed...

I've been hit by a red-light runner before. That's long stopped me from treating most intersections like a drag race.

My eyes almost rolled out of my head.

You've had one accident, and now every intersection is something incredibly dangerous and needs to be approached with an insane amount of caution. Am I wrong?

Actually, don't respond to that. I know what you'll say: I'm not giving it enough thought, and that I'm the foolish one.

Here's my response: it's a god-damn left turn. We're not trying to launch a fucking space shuttle. If any of those bizarre situations come up (U-turn conflict, emergency vehicles, etc) then you can deal with that when it comes to it. But otherwise, it's really quite a simple thing. Always be observant, of course. I'm not saying you should throw all care to the wind. That would be foolish. But to, perhaps, imply that the only truly safe option is to wait behind the line, is so far off from the truth. I've somehow gone the past eight years without a single crash related to this maneuver, and neither have any of my family members (many of whom are much older than you); this is hardly concrete evidence, but I'm fairly certain that your reasons for not pulling forward are no less anecdotal.

Honestly, the most common incident I see related to this maneuver, is a car finishing their turn on yellow/red but an oncoming car blows the red. If the driver of the turning vehicle was paying attention, they would have spotted this speeding car. Not saying they asked for it, but they weren't being observant.

A) there is no blocking in jurisdictions that use all-red clearance phases (maybe yours doesn't);

I don't understand what you mean by this? Do you mean a moment when nobody has a green phase? I have seen very few intersections with a few seconds of all-red, so as to assume that no crossroads have it. (Although, I do know of a few with extended yellow phases.)

All-red clearance phases are most common in states with permissive yellow laws. They allow two things: drivers who just entered the intersection (right before the red light came up) to finish their movement, and to allow traffic waiting to turn left to finish their turn without blocking the traffic on the side-street. Usually, the phase lasts one or two seconds. Are you saying that most lights in your area have no time between the conclusion of the yellow phase for street A, and the green phase for street B?

B) what would the ticket be for? It's not illegal in most areas;

I've seen cops chase down intersection-blockers/runners on three separate occasions. All were in Florida. Now there could have been APBs for a precise vehicle match, but that's an amazing coincidence on the verge of "unbelievable".

Those drivers would be receiving tickets for something that is standard practice in much of the country, and is not considered red-light-running or intersection-blocking. Around here, it's not "running a red light" unless you cross the stop line on red. Being in the intersection has nothing to do with the state of the signal, unless it turns red and you don't clear the intersection; that would be blocking.

C) It's dangerous? Surely you have evidence. Generally, "not dangerous until proven otherwise" is the standard.

Any signalized intersection has the chance to be dangerous. Do you really doubt that no accident could ever be caused by a misunderstanding in an intersection?

Certainly possible. But as I mentioned earlier, a far larger number of crashes seem to occur because driver A fails to observe something: a red light, a pedestrian, another car, a signal pole, etc. Often times because they are drunk, using their phone, or even speeding. But a misunderstanding? Like failing to recognize when someone else has the right-of-way? Probably some crashes, but probably not a majority.

In any scenario, neither of us has any more than anecdotal evidence on our side. Which is why I stand by my statement that pulling forward should be considered a safe movement unless there's evidence to the contrary. I have seen crashes related to left turns with permissive phasing, but they don't have anything to do with pulling forward or otherwise.

For the record, I have seen at least one crash (extremely minor) where a driver waiting behind the stop line started to go because they saw a gap opening, but then slammed on the brakes when the yellow light came up (even though it's not illegal to enter on yellow around here, even from a stop). The car behind them bumped into them, thinking they would continue with their turn (we don't use many left-side signals around here, so the car behind the front car could not see the signal). If the front car pulled into the intersection, there would be no need to slam on the brakes to avoid entering a yellow or red light, and thereby causing a crash.

Other drivers who think that they can "draft" behind you and make the intersection, dangerously flaunting the "being in the intersection" rule.

Sorry, what? What's the "being in the intersection" rule?

It's standard procedure here for cars to pull out behind the front car. Having two or three cars waiting beyond the stop line is not unusual nor illegal. A 2-second all-red phase generally keeps the second or third car from giving the appearance of "blocking", should no gap develop. But if that last car took to long to turn, I've heard that police could issue a ticket for blocking. But I've never seen or heard of this actually happening, and I bet it would be an easy ticket to fight.

Unless the law specifically states he required to pull forward, it's his decision as to if he wants to do it or not. He's less likely to get in an accident by staying put and waiting a couple of minutes for a green arrow rather than trying to hurry through the intersection - that's just a fact. In his mind, if waiting could prevent another major accident, that's what he's going to do.

Quite frankly, I'd rather be safe than sorry in that situation. I will enter the intersection and go when it's clear on red, but only when I feel it's safe. And sometime, I will just play it safe and wait back. Do you have an issue with every driver who waits or is more cautious than you? All this post seems to be is you criticizing his more cautious driving habits because you have to wait an extra minute, and at the same time, the chance of a wreck blocking the intersection is significantly reduced.

[Beltway]

Unless the law specifically states he required to pull forward, it's his decision as to if he wants to do it or not. He's less likely to get in an accident by staying put and waiting a couple of minutes for a green arrow rather than trying to hurry through the intersection - that's just a fact. In his mind, if waiting could prevent another major accident, that's what he's going to do.
Quite frankly, I'd rather be safe than sorry in that situation. I will enter the intersection and go when it's clear on red, but only when I feel it's safe. And sometime, I will just play it safe and wait back. Do you have an issue with every driver who waits or is more cautious than you? All this post seems to be is you criticizing his more cautious driving habits because you have to wait an extra minute, and at the same time, the chance of a wreck blocking the intersection is significantly reduced.

I rarely have a case where I cannot "stake out a left turn" at a signalized intersection.  This generally presupposes a left turn lane and that is most commonly found on a 4-lane divided road, and these intersections are typically large enough that they can contain 1 to 3 vehicles ahead of the stop bar, and allow space for the opposing left-turners to do the same.

Like "right turn on red" you have a legal right to abstain from this maneuver if you choose, but is that really fair to other drivers who are willing to use this maneuver?

[jeffandnicole]

And it's safer to have your wheels pointed forward, not turned, and that's taught in driver's education classes (and traffic court-insisted re-education classes).

Absolutely true...although you can have your wheels straight while within the intersection, so not sure what this has to do with not entering the intersection.

A) there is no blocking in jurisdictions that use all-red clearance phases (maybe yours doesn't);

I don't understand what you mean by this? Do you mean a moment when nobody has a green phase? I have seen very few intersections with a few seconds of all-red, so as to assume that no crossroads have it. (Although, I do know of a few with extended yellow phases.)

I would be very surprised if these intersections you normally travel thru don't have all red phases.  They are generally built into every traffic light cycle.  If you're not noticing this, that's an issue. 

Unless the law specifically states he required to pull forward, it's his decision as to if he wants to do it or not. He's less likely to get in an accident by staying put and waiting a couple of minutes for a green arrow rather than trying to hurry through the intersection - that's just a fact. In his mind, if waiting could prevent another major accident, that's what he's going to do.

Quite frankly, I'd rather be safe than sorry in that situation. I will enter the intersection and go when it's clear on red, but only when I feel it's safe. And sometime, I will just play it safe and wait back. Do you have an issue with every driver who waits or is more cautious than you? All this post seems to be is you criticizing his more cautious driving habits because you have to wait an extra minute, and at the same time, the chance of a wreck blocking the intersection is significantly reduced.

Yup...there's that phrase again!

And it's laughable that you follow that up by saying you'll enter the intersection on red. 

And finally...not every intersection has a green arrow.

There could be a patrol car or ambulance coming the other way, and there's the chance they'd override the lights for the intersection.

Very unlikely, and in most jurisdictions, the activation mode is clearly visible on the mast arms or poles near the intersection. 

I've seen cops chase down intersection-blockers/runners on three separate occasions. All were in Florida. Now there could have been APBs for a precise vehicle match, but that's an amazing coincidence on the verge of "unbelievable".

Or maybe they were caught doing something else, and the cop waited until after the intersection to activate his lights.  If the cops were activating their flashing lights within the intersection, that usually indicates they want to get around traffic.  The lawbreaker would probably just sit there.  There's methods behind their way of doing things.

[formulanone]

Unless the law specifically states he required to pull forward, it's his decision as to if he wants to do it or not. He's less likely to get in an accident by staying put and waiting a couple of minutes for a green arrow rather than trying to hurry through the intersection - that's just a fact. In his mind, if waiting could prevent another major accident, that's what he's going to do.
Quite frankly, I'd rather be safe than sorry in that situation. I will enter the intersection and go when it's clear on red, but only when I feel it's safe. And sometime, I will just play it safe and wait back. Do you have an issue with every driver who waits or is more cautious than you? All this post seems to be is you criticizing his more cautious driving habits because you have to wait an extra minute, and at the same time, the chance of a wreck blocking the intersection is significantly reduced.

Like "right turn on red" you have a legal right to abstain from this maneuver if you choose, but is that really fair to other drivers who are willing to use this maneuver?

I'd counter that by saying: is it fair to make the drivers on their green phase to lose 1-2 seconds of their right-of-way movements? If it doesn't affect anyone, doesn't alter anyone else's course, then it doesn't bother me either...it's fair enough.

I never said I don't do it, either...but for an unfamiliar intersection and/or questionable visibility...I'll stop at the line of moving up gives me no advantage to making a left turn. I tend to drive in a lot of unfamiliar places every week which has a lot to do with my cautious behavior.

Again, there's too many considerations to say there's a hard-and-fast rule for this; that's kind of why I don't get the fuss. But it sure as shit isn't due to my incompetence — the title of the thread.

[J N Winkler]

To my way of thinking, the biggest disadvantage to staking out a left turn is the reduced visibility of oncoming traffic when there is a vehicle in an opposite-facing left-turn lane also waiting to turn left.  Your view of oncoming traffic is more constrained the closer you are to a vehicle in front of you that is blocking your view.  In some countries it is customary for two opposite-facing left-turning vehicles to advance past each other so that neither is occluding the other's view, but that does not work well with how left-turn facilities are marked in this country, and so few Americans are aware of this custom that an attempt to execute it would likely result in an accident.

Left-turn visibility issues can be largely prevented by laterally offsetting left-turn lanes, but few roads have median widths large enough to allow this.

My understanding of the legal position is that once you clear the stop bar, even if it is to stake out a left turn, you are no longer governed by the signal.  This doesn't just mean that you are free to make the turn once the oncoming yellow-light runners have cleared the intersection.  It also means that if you arrive at the intersection on a red and overrun the stop bar, even if you stop in a position that does not conflict with cross traffic, you have technically run the light and can be ticketed.

[Beltway]

To my way of thinking, the biggest disadvantage to staking out a left turn is the reduced visibility of oncoming traffic when there is a vehicle in an opposite-facing left-turn lane also waiting to turn left. 

If the opposing way is not completely visible due to traffic then I wait until it is and I don't turn until I know it is clear.

If that means waiting until the light turns yellow, then I do that and make sure that no light-runner is coming the other way.

[US 89]

I'd counter that by saying: is it fair to make the drivers on their green phase to lose 1-2 seconds of their right-of-way movements?

It's more fair than making the left-turning drivers behind you wait another full light cycle. This is the single biggest issue I have with people who won't pull a little bit into the intersection, and in busy intersections, that left-turn time is a lot more valuable than straight-through green time. If everyone waited slightly past the stop bar, it would guarantee that at least two cars can make a left per cycle. Speaking from personal experience, I've been the second car in a left-turn line and waited three light cycles because the guy in front didn't pull into the intersection and refused to turn left on the yellow, even after I honked at him on cycle 2.

[Flint1979]

You guys would hate the traffic light at (M-58) State Street and Hemmeter in Saginaw Township. It has no turn arrow for left turning traffic in any direction. If you are going from EB State to NB Hemmeter you have to wait for three oncoming lanes to clear and usually only one car gets to turn per green light. This on a street that sees around 30,000 vpd. This is also one of the most dangerous intersections in Saginaw County. MDOT has been told numerous times about the nature of the intersection and does nothing about it. Even with State being repaved this summer they didn't do anything to that intersection.

[Beltway]

You guys would hate the traffic light at (M-58) State Street and Hemmeter in Saginaw Township. It has no turn arrow for left turning traffic in any direction. If you are going from EB State to NB Hemmeter you have to wait for three oncoming lanes to clear and usually only one car gets to turn per green light. This on a street that sees around 30,000 vpd. This is also one of the most dangerous intersections in Saginaw County. MDOT has been told numerous times about the nature of the intersection and does nothing about it. Even with State being repaved this summer they didn't do anything to that intersection.

Poor intersection design is a problem anywhere ...

[webny99]

I'd counter that by saying: is it fair to make the drivers on their green phase to lose 1-2 seconds of their right-of-way movements?

It's more fair than making the left-turning drivers behind you wait another full light cycle. This is the single biggest issue I have with people who won't pull a little bit into the intersection, and in busy intersections, that left-turn time is a lot more valuable than straight-through green time. If everyone waited slightly past the stop bar, it would guarantee that at least two cars can make a left per cycle. Speaking from personal experience, I've been the second car in a left-turn line and waited three light cycles because the guy in front didn't pull into the intersection and refused to turn left on the yellow, even after I honked at him on cycle 2.

Fully agree.
When there's no green arrow, and there's a line to turn left, it bugs me to no end if only one car, or worse, nobody at all, goes at the end of the light cycle. If I was the third car in line, I would probably go as well, but my absolute minimum expectation is for the first two to get out of there on yellow/red.

I would think it should be obvious that left-turning green time is exponentially more valuable than straight-through time. Through traffic is guaranteed to flow unhindered on green, while left-turning traffic has anywhere from a 100% to a 0% chance of being able to move on green. Left-turning traffic absolutely deserves to own a few seconds of the cross-traffic's green light, especially at locations like this one, where green space is literally allocated 85%-15% in favor of the busier road. Heck, traffic on NY 286 could sit there for another red cycle again as long as the existing red, and still clear the intersection with time to spare, and they get that massive cushion while there are delays of up to 10 or more light cycles for northbound traffic turning left.

[vdeane]

To my way of thinking, the biggest disadvantage to staking out a left turn is the reduced visibility of oncoming traffic when there is a vehicle in an opposite-facing left-turn lane also waiting to turn left.  Your view of oncoming traffic is more constrained the closer you are to a vehicle in front of you that is blocking your view.  In some countries it is customary for two opposite-facing left-turning vehicles to advance past each other so that neither is occluding the other's view, but that does not work well with how left-turn facilities are marked in this country, and so few Americans are aware of this custom that an attempt to execute it would likely result in an accident.

I have a hard time picturing how that would even work.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Pacing was brought up earlier. I notice every time I'm in the right lane approaching a slower vehicle, there's a car already approaching for an overtake in the left lane moving at a speed fast enough that he should be past me before I have to brake or disengage the cruise. And then for whatever reason he slows down to match my speed when he gets alongside me and I have to reduce speed. Incredibly irritating and happens consistently.

[RobbieL2415]

Its simple.

1) Green ball phase. Permissive left turn.
2) Move into position for left turn.
3) Give way to traffic/peds
4) Turn left
5) Profit

[jakeroot]

Its simple.

1) Green ball phase. Permissive left turn.
2) Move into position for left turn.
3) Give way to traffic/peds
4) Turn left
5) Profit

That's basically how I look at it. But others don't consider it that straight-forward. For better or worse.

[kphoger]

The thing that's annoying me lately is people who start slowing down way in advance when the light ahead is red such that it makes it hard to get to the left-turn lane in time to get the green arrow (or to get into the right-turn lane at all). I don't think it's incompetence so much as it's being inconsiderate and not thinking about anyone else

Or these people are simply heeding the common advice to slow down and speed up gradually in order to improve fuel economy and brake wear.

[sprjus4]

The thing that's annoying me lately is people who start slowing down way in advance when the light ahead is red such that it makes it hard to get to the left-turn lane in time to get the green arrow (or to get into the right-turn lane at all). I don't think it's incompetence so much as it's being inconsiderate and not thinking about anyone else

Or these people are simply heeding the common advice to slow down and speed up gradually in order to improve fuel economy and brake wear.

Or the people who don't feel like flying up and slamming their brakes for the sake of being more cautious.

When I'm driving, I'm more concerned about myself and my vehicle rather than the person behind me's ability to make a green light.

[jakeroot]

My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis. If I'm following behind a driver, and I see a red light in the distance, my expectation is that I will eventually have to slow down, unless it changes to green. But then the car in front decides they want to brake now (even though at this speed, the light may change), which causes me to apply my brakes unevenly (I didn't expect them to start braking this early). At this point, a rubber-band braking effect begins to form behind us, and who knows what kind of traffic issues that could create.

[sprjus4]

My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis. If I'm following behind a driver, and I see a red light in the distance, my expectation is that I will eventually have to slow down, unless it changes to green. But then the car in front decides they want to brake now (even though at this speed, the light may change), which causes me to apply my brakes unevenly (I didn't expect them to start braking this early). At this point, a rubber-band braking effect begins to form behind us, and who knows what kind of traffic issues that could create.

I don't necessarily brake in advanced, but I will let off the gas until I come near the intersection to the point I need to brake.

[MNHighwayMan]

My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis.

Not my problem.

[jakeroot]

My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis. If I'm following behind a driver, and I see a red light in the distance, my expectation is that I will eventually have to slow down, unless it changes to green. But then the car in front decides they want to brake now (even though at this speed, the light may change), which causes me to apply my brakes unevenly (I didn't expect them to start braking this early). At this point, a rubber-band braking effect begins to form behind us, and who knows what kind of traffic issues that could create.

I don't necessarily brake in advanced, but I will let off the gas until I come near the intersection to the point I need to brake.

That's more normal than I think you realize. But if you're letting off the gas, say, three blocks ahead of time, that's excessive.

My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis.

Not my problem.

Uhh, yes it is. When your early braking creates unnecessary traffic jams. Drive with consideration...that's my mantra.

[Brandon]

My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis.

Not my problem.

Uhh, yes it is. When your early braking creates unnecessary traffic jams. Drive with consideration...that's my mantra.

Or worse.  I've seen multiple rear-end collisions occur because of this crap.  Be considerate of others on the road with you.

[1995hoo]

This is from another forum to which I belong. It's in a thread called "Things that are pissing me the fuck off."

Cell phone use at a light. Seems I have to honk at someone not paying attention to a light turning green almost everyday now. You can look at their mirror and see their head down looking at their phone. What's so damn important you have to check while driving? Why not use Siri to read you a text or respond.

Why use Siri? Just another intrusion into my privacy by corporate America. Besides, I've always got you to let me know the light has changed. Thanks.